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Good reads on Jason Garret's offensive system

giants_10_88 : 1/17/2020 12:18 pm
https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013/7/12/4514628/dallas-cowboys-jason-garrett-offensive-philosophy-air-coryell

[url]https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2019/5/15/18564757/how-the-cowboys-offense-has-evolved-under-jason-garrett-tony-romo-scott-linehan-bill-callahan [/url}
Jerry Jeudy  
Pete44 : 1/17/2020 12:25 pm : link
Makes you think Jerry Jeudy could be at play.
I said this on another thread...  
bw in dc : 1/17/2020 12:28 pm : link
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?
I would try to lock him into  
JerryNicklebag : 1/17/2020 12:32 pm : link
a 2 year minimum commitment. Not sure if that is something they can do though. Perhaps a verbal agreement that he stays for at least 2.
RE: I said this on another thread...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 12:33 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


Unless you get an old guy, that's going to be a risk for anyone who has success, especially in New York.
RE: I said this on another thread...  
USAF NYG Fan : 1/17/2020 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?

My small issue with this would be that it would be the same for any quality OC, wouldn't it? It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't go after Garrett because he's too good.
I'm  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 12:36 pm : link
not sure I totally agree with that article. Coryell and Turner were far more vertical passing that Walsh's West Coast offense which featured more of a horizontal stretching of the field.
RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
bw in dc : 1/17/2020 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14783446 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?



Unless you get an old guy, that's going to be a risk for anyone who has success, especially in New York.


I get it. But the risk will be much higher with Garrett. I would almost peg it at 95% that he's gone in 2021.
Jerry  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 12:38 pm : link
You can't block a coordinator from seeking HC jobs. You could try to come to an understanding with a coach, but that coach isn't obligated to honor that understanding. You can't put a clause in a contract
bw in dc  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 12:39 pm : link
You are probably right, but I don't know. Owners seem to be enthralled with getting the next new young hot coordinator. (Insert joke here).
RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
bw in dc : 1/17/2020 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14783449 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


My small issue with this would be that it would be the same for any quality OC, wouldn't it? It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't go after Garrett because he's too good.


It's definitely a situation that should be considered. Should it be a show stopper and the reason not to hire Garrett? No.
Garrett  
MotownGIANTS : 1/17/2020 12:47 pm : link
may like being a OC more (I doubt it but it is possible) less stress less media BS etc etc

However you could get him for a 2 yr deal and he has a guy grooming to step into his spot in 2 yrs .... and you give him extra $$$$ for the 2 yr commitment maybe that is the holdup .... the nitty gritty that is a win-win for both sides
Eric, the article was referring  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 12:47 pm : link
to the neboulous nature of the term "West Coast" offense. It was a term first attached to the Air Coryell system before the meaning was erroneously attached to the Walsh system, where the name stuck.
RE: RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
Blue21 : 1/17/2020 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14783464 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14783449 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:


In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


My small issue with this would be that it would be the same for any quality OC, wouldn't it? It sounds like you are saying we shouldn't go after Garrett because he's too good.



It's definitely a situation that should be considered. Should it be a show stopper and the reason not to hire Garrett? No.



We worried about the same thing with Betcher although it didn't involve a rookie QB it involves a bunch of rookie DB's. Can't worry about tomorrow. Worry about today. get the system in place. Have success and maybe next year another coach from the team is ready to slide inplace.
Sneakers O'toole  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 12:50 pm : link
I understand that. But my memory of Air Coryell was Dan Fouts throwing the ball vertically DOWN the field. Walsh attacked the field more horizontally.

When I look at Dallas' offense, I don't see Bill Walsh.
They were two different systems  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 12:53 pm : link
The term flopped from one to the other. The writer bringing up that fact seems to just be on a weird digression from his main point.
RE: you Are crazy bw  
5BowlsSoon : 1/17/2020 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


Look at his resume.....what do you see in 10 years?
How accurately we can say Garrets offense is "verticle" in nature  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 12:55 pm : link
is up for debate. Almost all systems have become influended by the horizontal aspects of the Walsh system in the late 20th century into today. It's in everything.
I enjoyed that read. Helps explain why we've never been able to  
yatqb : 1/17/2020 1:00 pm : link
cover the middle and Whitten against them.
RE: I enjoyed that read. Helps explain why we've never been able to  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14783502 yatqb said:
Quote:
cover the middle and Whitten against them.


We haven't been able to cover any team's tight ends.

Why?

Because our linebackers and safeties sucked.
RE: RE: I enjoyed that read. Helps explain why we've never been able to  
giants_10_88 : 1/17/2020 1:08 pm : link
In comment 14783507 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14783502 yatqb said:


Quote:


cover the middle and Whitten against them.



We haven't been able to cover any team's tight ends.

Why?

Because our linebackers and safeties sucked.


Yea I was gonna say this. We haven't had a good cover linebacker in ages. Really wish we had a van Der Esch type player on this roster. Long , rangy and good in space.
there is risk  
BleedBlue : 1/17/2020 1:10 pm : link
with ANY OC. if garrett does THAT good that people immediately want him for HC(where he seemed average) then go for it. it means our offense was GREAT.

my guess is he is the OC for 2 years then moves on
KC has some air raid  
giants_10_88 : 1/17/2020 1:11 pm : link
concepts thrown in which I think make a team more dangerous especially given poor LB play around the league as a whole. Hoping the next guy can incorporate some of these in the offense.
You don't not hire someone for fear hes going to leave for a promotion  
bigschott : 1/17/2020 1:12 pm : link
We can only hope we're in that situation next offseason.

RE: I said this on another thread...  
giants_10_88 : 1/17/2020 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


Why assume the offensive system will change? Won't Garett bring in somebody under him (Callahan or Linehan) that knows the system?
.  
Del Shofner : 1/17/2020 1:19 pm : link
"That's the essence of Coryell's system, and, in turn, Jason Garrett's. It's a fairly simple concept once you get the hang of it. You use the threat of the deep ball and the threat of the interior running game to force the concession of the intermediate passing game."

As the writer points out, a good OL is necessary for this.
Whoever gets named  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 1:19 pm : link
They are going to need to be versatile and flexable given Judge's introductory presser. He clearly wants to replicate the Patriots chameleon like nature on both sides of tge ball. That means not being overly attached to the history of any one given system
RE: I said this on another thread...  
Chris684 : 1/17/2020 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


First, you can always promote the top assistant working under him this year.

Second, don't want to assume that any success automatically means anything.

Third, I have grown to shy away from that line of thinking after we wound up with McAdoo "for Eli" and the nightmare that became.

Jones went to Duke. He can adapt if necessary.
In other words  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/17/2020 1:20 pm : link
The short answer to what offense does tge Patriots run, all of them.
If we only had Bavaro again.  
giantsfan227B : 1/17/2020 1:24 pm : link
Witten will end up in the HOF just based on this offensive philosophy (and the Giants lack of attention to covering any TE).

That's how this scheme makes stars out of tight ends. If you were to poll defensive coordinators and ask them what they hate most in football, I'm fairly certain you'd see 'deep pass plays' and 'big runs up the middle' right at the top. They commit their safeties to stopping the deep pass plays, and their linebackers to stopping the run, but no one worries about the tight end. You won't see a 7-yard pass to Witten on SportsCenter, will you? I won't argue chicken-or-egg here with Witten and the Coryell scheme, but I think it suffices to say that the scheme creates opportunities for Witten and Witten, in turn, capitalizes on those opportunities.
RE: Sneakers O'toole  
Racer : 1/17/2020 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14783480 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I understand that. But my memory of Air Coryell was Dan Fouts throwing the ball vertically DOWN the field. Walsh attacked the field more horizontally.

When I look at Dallas' offense, I don't see Bill Walsh.


Agree. Walsh didn't run crossers with a go or post by the X 15 times a game, every game? [/sarcasm]
west coast  
mdc1 : 1/17/2020 1:45 pm : link
I don't like much as it is too horizontal and without a mobile QB or RPO added to it you suffer with downfield throws in my view. Not saying you can't but in terms of Jones eval we really need to see if he the QB for us for downfield passing game or we won't win shit.
RE: west coast  
giants_10_88 : 1/17/2020 1:49 pm : link
In comment 14783587 mdc1 said:
Quote:
I don't like much as it is too horizontal and without a mobile QB or RPO added to it you suffer with downfield throws in my view. Not saying you can't but in terms of Jones eval we really need to see if he the QB for us for downfield passing game or we won't win shit.


But with Jones we have a mobile QB and we can add RPO and spread concepts to it.
Deep shots down the field  
rocco8112 : 1/17/2020 2:01 pm : link
sledgehammer at RB for a power run game, real two way TE who is reliable and makes plays to keep the chains moving and score in the red zone.

Sign me up. Enough with the dinky dinky timing west coast crapola, switching to that is part of why the Giants lost their way.

Good article.
Racer  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 2:10 pm : link
Walsh would dink and dunk you to death (and the old 49er teams actually ran the ball more often and more effectively than people remember). The deeper shots usually came later and I would argue were more of a result of Jerry Rice being added in 1985.

But they were not a vertical passing team, not like a Norv Turner team.
There is a Silver  
OntheRoad : 1/17/2020 2:19 pm : link
if Garret is hired and leaves for a head coaching job after a year. The Giants become known as a launching pad for aspiring head coaches, and future coaching staff become easier to hire.
RE: RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
santacruzom : 1/17/2020 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14783452 bw in dc said:
Quote:

I get it. But the risk will be much higher with Garrett. I would almost peg it at 95% that he's gone in 2021.


If he performs so well with the Giants offense that's 95 percent likely to be a head coach in 2021, I'd classify that as a good problem to have.
There is a Silver Lining  
OntheRoad : 1/17/2020 2:35 pm : link
if Garret is hired and leaves for a head coaching job after a year.

Future coaching applicants are more likely to see the Giants as a path to opportunity rather than a coaching graveyard.
RE: Racer  
Racer : 1/17/2020 3:13 pm : link
In comment 14783643 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Walsh would dink and dunk you to death (and the old 49er teams actually ran the ball more often and more effectively than people remember). The deeper shots usually came later and I would argue were more of a result of Jerry Rice being added in 1985.

But they were not a vertical passing team, not like a Norv Turner team.


No debate. I was adding a Garrett barb about DAL being woefully predictable of late. Those SF teams are remembered for games like the '90 championship game where they ran it 11 times, including a couple of times *trying* to run out the clock.

BTW, Lombardi's description of how Walsh built the system in Cincinnati within 'Grid Iron Genius' provided a lot of context to what we already knew about the original WCO.
Racer  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/17/2020 3:20 pm : link
Now I get ya...

Honestly, I haven't followed Dallas' play-calling "issues" all that closely other than hearing pundits and fans (including my next door neighbor) bitch about it.

But I recall talking to another Cowboys fans early last season when things were going well for Dallas who thought their offense was unstoppable. I said to him, "Much depends on Dak. When Dak is on, you guys are golden."

He didn't like that because of the implication that Dak could still be a problem. Based on what I saw of Dallas, I still stand by that.

RE: RE: RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
Reale01 : 1/17/2020 3:34 pm : link
In comment 14783674 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14783452 bw in dc said:


Quote:



I get it. But the risk will be much higher with Garrett. I would almost peg it at 95% that he's gone in 2021.



If he performs so well with the Giants offense that's 95 percent likely to be a head coach in 2021, I'd classify that as a good problem to have.


You plan for it. Part of the job is to groom a successor.
Montana didn't have the arm to support a vertical attack  
GeofromNJ : 1/17/2020 8:17 pm : link
Most of the home runs to Jerry Rice were mid range which Rice then took to the house. Walsh developed the WC offense after Greg Cook went down and Virgil Carter, who was limited in terms of arm strength, replaced him.
RE: I said this on another thread...  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/17/2020 8:36 pm : link
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?


For you, not only is the glass always half empty, the glass is shattered on the floor and the fucking house is on fire.

Any successful OC will potentially be a hc candidate. If the offense is good enough for that to happen it's a good problem to have.
Superior Commentary on Garrett  
Percy : 1/17/2020 9:29 pm : link
And where he's coming from (to me, an amateur). The linked story is a winner. Why Jone let this guy go escapes me.
RE: RE: I said this on another thread...  
Bill L : 1/17/2020 10:02 pm : link
In comment 14784120 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14783435 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Garrett is going to be a hot commodity next year when there are another 5-7 HC openings.

So there is a very good chance, if hired, he's gone in a year.

Which begs the question - would we want Jones to go through another offensive system in his third year?



For you, not only is the glass always half empty, the glass is shattered on the floor and the fucking house is on fire.

Any successful OC will potentially be a hc candidate. If the offense is good enough for that to happen it's a good problem to have.


I keep telling you guys, his glass is not half-empty. Itís completely full.

Of wine. A Burgundy, in fact...
if we want a big outside receiver i'd take a flyer a Devin Funchess  
CMicks3110 : 1/17/2020 10:43 pm : link
could be had a cheap 1 year prove it deal and he is a monster on the outside when healthy and motivated.
Garrett will also help Judge's learning curve as a head coach.  
Mr. Bungle : 1/17/2020 10:54 pm : link
And how do we know Garrett will want another head coaching job?

And if he's going to be such a sure-fire hot commodity a year from now, why wasn't he one now?

How about just looking at the 2020 value of this instead of making up some doom and gloom for 2021?
RE: Garrett will also help Judge's learning curve as a head coach.  
Sean : 1/17/2020 10:58 pm : link
In comment 14784328 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
And how do we know Garrett will want another head coaching job?

And if he's going to be such a sure-fire hot commodity a year from now, why wasn't he one now?

How about just looking at the 2020 value of this instead of making up some doom and gloom for 2021?


This.
RE: Whoever gets named  
crick n NC : 1/18/2020 8:22 am : link
In comment 14783535 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
They are going to need to be versatile and flexable given Judge's introductory presser. He clearly wants to replicate the Patriots chameleon like nature on both sides of tge ball. That means not being overly attached to the history of any one given system


This is pretty much all that needs to be said
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