for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

With Daniel Jones in place, if no blue chips, TRADE DOWN

Jim in Forest Hills : 1/17/2020 1:26 pm
Again, if the blue chip game changers, Burrow, Young and Okudah are not there, trade down.

Philosophically, this should be the mindset of the FO moving forward.

The team is talent deficient - look at this two ways

Scenario 1. The draft is a crapshoot, drafting at 4 vs 14 may be close odds on player success. Since the QB is in place, accumulate more swings at the plate and win more assets to the team.

They should try to double their picks here well into rd 5.

Scenario 2. Gettleman is good at drafting. Ok then! Let's get DG additional 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th round picks. Even if we are picking later in the rounds, let DG do what he does best. He found Slayton and Connelly in rd 5, what could he show us with two 3rd, two 4ths and two more 5ths?

I hope they trade down multiple times to acquire more, build out what the Pats do, they had Brady so they knew they had to supply him with cheap talent all across the team.

They are in prime position to do this with all the QB starved teams right behind them. Build the depth and increase the chances at getting good players, trade down!
Agreed  
kash94 : 1/17/2020 1:32 pm : link
I think the strategy is easier said than done, but there is definitely a clear path to do so this year with Miami and LAC picking behind us. Both need a QB and Miami has a lot of draft capital to burn while LAC has fewer holes than a typical team drafting at 6 (they lost a TON of close games last year).

Hopefully Herbert and Tua have big combines leading up to the draft and we can get a bidding war going. There's a chance we can still end up with an Okudah or Simmons while getting an additional 2nd or 3rd round pick
RE: Agreed  
26.2 : 1/17/2020 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14783561 kash94 said:
Quote:
I think the strategy is easier said than done, but there is definitely a clear path to do so this year with Miami and LAC picking behind us. Both need a QB and Miami has a lot of draft capital to burn while LAC has fewer holes than a typical team drafting at 6 (they lost a TON of close games last year).

Hopefully Herbert and Tua have big combines leading up to the draft and we can get a bidding war going. There's a chance we can still end up with an Okudah or Simmons while getting an additional 2nd or 3rd round pick


Is Tua even going to be able to participate in the combine? Herbert's stock rising will help us a lot if we do want to trade down.
Some  
kash94 : 1/17/2020 1:37 pm : link
recent potentially comparable trades:

-Colts traded the third overall pick for the sixth overall pick, as well as two 2nds and a 3rd.

-49ers traded the second overall pick for the third overall pick as well as two 3rds and a 4th

-Raiders traded the tenth overall pick for the 15th overall pick as well as a 3rd and a 5th

-Bucs traded the seventh overall pick for the 12th overall pick as well as two 2nds
RE: RE: Agreed  
kash94 : 1/17/2020 1:38 pm : link
In comment 14783570 26.2 said:
Quote:
In comment 14783561 kash94 said:


Quote:


I think the strategy is easier said than done, but there is definitely a clear path to do so this year with Miami and LAC picking behind us. Both need a QB and Miami has a lot of draft capital to burn while LAC has fewer holes than a typical team drafting at 6 (they lost a TON of close games last year).

Hopefully Herbert and Tua have big combines leading up to the draft and we can get a bidding war going. There's a chance we can still end up with an Okudah or Simmons while getting an additional 2nd or 3rd round pick



Is Tua even going to be able to participate in the combine? Herbert's stock rising will help us a lot if we do want to trade down.


I think he said he's going to participate but most think he'll be limited at least. I still think he goes higher than people think, especially in a year where the QB talent isn't tremendous. Feel like a bunch of QBs go higher than projected every year.
With who? What is the market?  
Sy'56 : 1/17/2020 1:39 pm : link
I'll say this guys, ALMOST EVERYONE wants to trade down and acquire picks. Everyone knows more volume of picks makes success more likely with a draft class.

It's hard to say that should be their draft strategy without knowing what is actually being offered. You can't under-sell the pick simply to get more selections.

Yes, the best hope is a team wants to leapfrog for a QB - but what if that scenario doesn't occur? To label someone a failure for not trading down is foolish because the lack of information at hand.
It depends upon who you define  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/17/2020 1:39 pm : link
as blue chips. By the time they get there, it may be a different (and bigger) list than yours. There are the obvious guys because of the programs they play in and the not so obvious guys that may emerge. While I am in agreement that this seems like the year to trade down, I don't think even the most well-infomed fan has the information to assess the entire college recruiting class. But statistically, having more choices increases the chances of success.
RE: With who? What is the market?  
Saos1n : 1/17/2020 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14783576 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I'll say this guys, ALMOST EVERYONE wants to trade down and acquire picks. Everyone knows more volume of picks makes success more likely with a draft class.

It's hard to say that should be their draft strategy without knowing what is actually being offered. You can't under-sell the pick simply to get more selections.

Yes, the best hope is a team wants to leapfrog for a QB - but what if that scenario doesn't occur? To label someone a failure for not trading down is foolish because the lack of information at hand.


Will we have the pleasure of reading your write ups on BBI this year? If not, where can we? Thanks!
That assumes that the three players you listed are the only  
Mike from Ohio : 1/17/2020 1:46 pm : link
blue chip players in the draft. What if the Giants believe Simmons is a blue chip player and draft him? Will that be evidence that they didn't try to trade down, or simply evidence that they thought he was worth the 4th overall pick?

The team will never admit they drafted a guy too high because no trade down was available - or appealing - so how do you evaluate if the team followed your advice or not?
I vote for a trade down even if Okudah is there at 4  
Jim from Katonah : 1/17/2020 1:46 pm : link
It’s an incredibly rich draft — just look at all the Clemson & LSU kids declaring — and you want as many top 3 round picks as possible.

And if you trade down to 8 or 10, you may still be able to get a guy like AJ Epenesa, who to me is a coin flip vs. almost anyone in the draft — and get a Queen or a Higgins for your trouble.
Agreed  
idiotsavant : 1/17/2020 1:50 pm : link
It's fairly strong consensus wise here at BBI what's needed. We goofballs have been at this a long time, and I'm nit sure there has ever been such a strong positional consensus :

Luckly, or by design, it's down to parts that ought not cost a top 10 or even a top 20 pick. We will argue about priority -within- this list, but it's almost unanimous what the list is, in no particular order:

Free(i.e. zone dbs) Safeties (my top)
Linesmen (2, one, a center)
Ilb (at least 1, or two; dif types)
Ilb / Edge (1)

There are other positions I'd note but not as much by consensus:

Tight End
#2 RB

*****

One must realize it's a multi-year project. Smart move to keep Tyke Tolbert - this bodes well for one more year with the current roster at wrs. And got residual value from the prior coach. Thank you. Best wishes .

The list on top, need not be the "generational types" . Specific types to run a system or two .
Typo olb / edge  
idiotsavant : 1/17/2020 1:52 pm : link
.
RE: With who? What is the market?  
AcidTest : 1/17/2020 1:56 pm : link
In comment 14783576 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I'll say this guys, ALMOST EVERYONE wants to trade down and acquire picks. Everyone knows more volume of picks makes success more likely with a draft class.

It's hard to say that should be their draft strategy without knowing what is actually being offered. You can't under-sell the pick simply to get more selections.

Yes, the best hope is a team wants to leapfrog for a QB - but what if that scenario doesn't occur? To label someone a failure for not trading down is foolish because the lack of information at hand.


The issue isn't whether we trade down this year, it's that we haven't done so in any round since 2006. Reese never did. Neither did Young. DG has also never done so. Why not? You make it seem as if trading down is next to impossible. But many other teams manage to do so every year.
who's gonna trade up for a QB? Maybe the Chargers?  
Heisenberg : 1/17/2020 1:56 pm : link
I don't see a lot of teams that will want to do that. Or the ones that do have picks a lot lower (Indy, Oak).

It sounds great but may be hard to work out.
This year seems like the "raise the floor"  
idiotsavant : 1/17/2020 1:57 pm : link
Year. We have seen what "hypothetical upside" gets you if done prior to the "don't get beat " mentality.

Running plus sound defense in the entire 11.

Following year you might look back at upside.
How are there any trades at all?  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/17/2020 2:02 pm : link
How do the Pats trade down every year?

Its definitely possible, but you've got to shop!
RE: How are there any trades at all?  
Klaatu : 1/17/2020 2:03 pm : link
In comment 14783630 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
How do the Pats trade down every year?

Its definitely possible, but you've got to shop!


Or answer your phone.
First round  
Professor Falken : 1/17/2020 2:05 pm : link
trades from last year. Interesting that none of the moves were for QBs:

Draft day trades

Steelers trade up for No. 10 pick

Steelers receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 10; select LB Devin Bush)

Broncos receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 20; select TE Noah Fant)
» 2019 second-round pick (No. 52; trade to Bengals)
» 2020 third-round pick


Packers trade up to No. 21

Packers receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 21; select DB Darnell Savage)

Seahawks receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 30; trade to Giants)
» 2019 fourth-round pick (No. 114; trade to Minnesota)
» 2019 fourth-round pick (No. 118; trade to New England)


Eagles move up to No. 22

Eagles receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 22; select OT Andre Dillard)

Ravens receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 25; select WR Marquise Brown)
» 2019 fourth-round pick (No. 127; select CB Iman Marshall)
» 2019 sixth-round pick (No. 197; select QB Trace McSorley)


Redskins trade for 26th pick

Redskins receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 26; select Edge Montez Sweat)

Colts receive:
» 2019 second-round pick (No. 46; trade to Browns)
» 2020 second-round pick


Giants jump back into first round

Giants receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 30; select CB Deandre Baker)

Seahawks receive:
» 2019 second-round pick (No. 37; trade to Panthers)
» 2019 fourth-round pick (No. 132; select S Ugochukwu Amadi)
» 2019 fifth-round pick (No. 142; select LB Ben Burr-Kirven)


Falcons bounce back into first

Falcons receive:
» 2019 first-round pick (No. 31; select OT Kaleb McGary)
» 2019 sixth-round pick (No. 203; select WR Marcus Green)

Rams receive:
» 2019 second-round pick (No. 45; trade to Patriots)
» 2019 third-round pick (No. 79; select DB David Long)
RE: How are there any trades at all?  
bw in dc : 1/17/2020 2:07 pm : link
In comment 14783630 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
How do the Pats trade down every year?

Its definitely possible, but you've got to shop!


Well said.

And this is the answer to all of the people who say it's tougher than is seems. It's merely a cop out.
'Burrow, Young and Okudah are not there'  
Torrag : 1/17/2020 2:07 pm : link
Jeudy is a blue chip prospect all day. Does this 'theory' apply to him Jim?
RE: 'Burrow, Young and Okudah are not there'  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/17/2020 2:14 pm : link
In comment 14783639 Torrag said:
Quote:
Jeudy is a blue chip prospect all day. Does this 'theory' apply to him Jim?


We can agree to disagree that he is a blue chip, I don't see him that way.

HOWEVER, if he's the next Calvin Johnson, take him!
Yes  
idiotsavant : 1/17/2020 2:16 pm : link
No wrs until the O line and entire D are made rational.

I'd guess some of the ol fix us schematic....but not all that fix.

Partly
I mean yes trade down still applies  
idiotsavant : 1/17/2020 2:19 pm : link
. Coach has to earn the right to shiney toys on offense .

Next year maybe
if you look at the past 20 years  
RasputinPrime : 1/17/2020 2:19 pm : link
there are always more than 3 blue chip prospects in every draft. The only issue is whether we can identify him and pull the trigger.

I applaud our GM last year for doing that and I hope he does the same in 2020.
what if nobody wants to trade up? It seems pretty certain that the  
Victor in CT : 1/17/2020 2:21 pm : link
Giants aren't taking a QB, so where's the bluff?

And it's easier to trade down from 20 or lower like the Pats are every year. The cost is much less to the other side.
RE: RE: 'Burrow, Young and Okudah are not there'  
Jim from Katonah : 1/17/2020 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14783650 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
In comment 14783639 Torrag said:


Quote:


Jeudy is a blue chip prospect all day. Does this 'theory' apply to him Jim?



We can agree to disagree that he is a blue chip, I don't see him that way.

HOWEVER, if he's the next Calvin Johnson, take him!


No one really knows how a player is going to turn out ... see eg Michael Thomas and George Kittle etc ... so if they can a top 10ish and top 40ish for the no. 4, it would be smart to get that extra dart throw.
RE: With who? What is the market?  
Vanzetti : 1/17/2020 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14783576 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
I'll say this guys, ALMOST EVERYONE wants to trade down and acquire picks. Everyone knows more volume of picks makes success more likely with a draft class.

It's hard to say that should be their draft strategy without knowing what is actually being offered. You can't under-sell the pick simply to get more selections.

Yes, the best hope is a team wants to leapfrog for a QB - but what if that scenario doesn't occur? To label someone a failure for not trading down is foolish because the lack of information at hand.


SY: Do you think this draft is better to trade back in than the average draft? It seems light at the top to me. But I did not watch as much college football this year as normal. So, it could just be a mistaken perception on my part.
RE: RE: RE: 'Burrow, Young and Okudah are not there'  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/17/2020 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14783673 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 14783650 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


In comment 14783639 Torrag said:


Quote:


Jeudy is a blue chip prospect all day. Does this 'theory' apply to him Jim?



We can agree to disagree that he is a blue chip, I don't see him that way.

HOWEVER, if he's the next Calvin Johnson, take him!



No one really knows how a player is going to turn out ... see eg Michael Thomas and George Kittle etc ... so if they can a top 10ish and top 40ish for the no. 4, it would be smart to get that extra dart throw.


I'm with you!

And of course there are George Kittles in every draft, lets let DG find them with more picks.

When I mean blue chips, I mean identified pre draft blue chip players. There are typically only a handful every year.
Perfect year/spot to grab the OT or Edge impact talent  
JonC : 1/17/2020 2:31 pm : link
and none to be had looking likely.
RE: Perfect year/spot to grab the OT or Edge impact talent  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/17/2020 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14783683 JonC said:
Quote:
and none to be had looking likely.


Agreed. If we had blue goose OT or ER, I'd say stay put. Would love to grab multiple at both spots and try to shake out some gold.
RE: Perfect year/spot to grab the OT or Edge impact talent  
BobsYourUncle : 1/17/2020 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14783683 JonC said:
Quote:
and none to be had looking likely.


+1 . Specifically the yr to grab the OT in rd 1.
I'm in favor of trading down,  
Section331 : 1/17/2020 2:55 pm : link
but it depends on who is looking to move up. If it's a top 10 team, I'd be very open to exploring a trade, but I would be keen on moving too deep into the first round. Yeah, we need more talent, but we also need more elite players.

What the Colts got from the Jets is an ideal take (and one I think DG should have jumped on). They only dropped 2 spots, and got 2 picks at the top of the 2nd round.
I would trade down, but my market number is 2  
Bill L : 1/17/2020 3:06 pm : link
I wouldn't pick any lower than the 6th pick.
Why does anyone think DG will not trade down but will take the BPA  
TMS : 1/17/2020 3:17 pm : link
again. Thats what he has done the last thee years. Understand he has never traded down so why now?
RE: I would trade down, but my market number is 2  
Jim from Katonah : 1/17/2020 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14783736 Bill L said:
Quote:
I wouldn't pick any lower than the 6th pick.


You must have a strong feeling about a 2 or 3 players you don’t want to miss on then. Which ones? By my view, there are a ton of equivalent talent players in the top 15. In a world where JJ Watt went 11 and Aaron Donald went 12 (etc etc), I think it’s best not to fall in love with someone if you can accumulate more darts.
This team needs more players that make plays  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/17/2020 3:28 pm : link
not more average players that fill roles.
RE: RE: With who? What is the market?  
Mdgiantsfan : 1/17/2020 3:29 pm : link
In comment 14783612 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 14783576 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


I'll say this guys, ALMOST EVERYONE wants to trade down and acquire picks. Everyone knows more volume of picks makes success more likely with a draft class.

It's hard to say that should be their draft strategy without knowing what is actually being offered. You can't under-sell the pick simply to get more selections.

Yes, the best hope is a team wants to leapfrog for a QB - but what if that scenario doesn't occur? To label someone a failure for not trading down is foolish because the lack of information at hand.



The issue isn't whether we trade down this year, it's that we haven't done so in any round since 2006. Reese never did. Neither did Young. DG has also never done so. Why not? You make it seem as if trading down is next to impossible. But many other teams manage to do so every year.


The trade down makes it seem like that’s the only way to be successful in the draft.
RE: Perfect year/spot to grab the OT or Edge impact talent  
bw in dc : 1/17/2020 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14783683 JonC said:
Quote:
and none to be had looking likely.


Gross-Matos is vastly underrated - so far - around here.
the key is to trade down and get more picks  
Platos : 1/17/2020 3:41 pm : link
not just better picks. say we trade down with the dolphins and get their pick in the 20's, hopefully we don't swap picks elsewhere you know?

giants 1st and 3rd(comp) for Miami's 1st(5th) and 1st(2*th)
Sy  
PaulN : 1/17/2020 3:50 pm : link
Then why are the Eagles and Patriots trading back just about every year, and the Giants the opposite, hardly ever. You are going to tell me they get fair offers but we don't, no way I am buying that. Do I believe they fall in love with thier board and because of that they stand pat, YEP. They will move up to grab a guy high on their precious board, but refuse to trade back. Go and add up the number of times each organization has traded back, I guarentee a pattern will be established by organization.
Our HC appears to be bringing the Patriot mindset  
UberAlias : 1/17/2020 4:03 pm : link
The way the Patriots tend to view things would lead one to conclude JJ would be very open to trading the pick. That said, I highly doubt we would trade down just for the sake of it --trades typically happen for a team looking to deal up for a QB. If the demand's not there, you aren;t going to get the equivalent value in return. It's hard to turn away a blue chip player, if he's there.
I'm All For Trading Down  
Giants38 : 1/17/2020 5:15 pm : link
But we have a GM in place who has literally never traded down. EVER. He was the understudy for a GM who never traded down. EVER. The past does not dictate the present, but it is a pretty good indicator. And, Sy, you can say what you want about underselling the pick. It is pretty well known that Gettleman refused to even listen to offers for the 2 pick in 2018. How do you know what someone is willing to offer if you don't even bother to pick up the phone?
Back to the Corner