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Could Isaiah Simmons play a hybrid Safety role in the NFL?

TC : 1/18/2020 2:26 pm
Sometimes staying deeper to help cover the middle of the field, sometimes moving up to the line to rush? Right now he's pegged around where the Giants pick by some. And those are certainly two roles that might help the Giants' D gel. Would he be a worthwhile #1 pick for the Giants?

Has he declared?  
bigblue12 : 1/18/2020 2:28 pm : link
I think the deadline was yesterday and I didn't see anything definitive
Still haven't heard anything definite.  
TC : 1/18/2020 2:34 pm : link
Though the Magic 8 Ball points to yes. All the press have been of the belief he would declare, hope they were right.
he'd be a true  
Allen in CNJ : 1/18/2020 2:37 pm : link
rover or monster back so yes I could see that
Detroit will  
TMS : 1/18/2020 2:54 pm : link
take him at #3. So he is not our problem. MO.
He declared before the season started  
Saos1n : 1/18/2020 2:56 pm : link
It was discussed by a number of people last night on Twitter. Iíll post the quote
Tweet  
Saos1n : 1/18/2020 2:56 pm : link
Quote:
Lots of Isaiah Simmons questions. Similar to how Ed Oliver did last year, Simmons declared for the draft prior to the 2019 season, which is why a formal announcement wasnít made from him like others have recently.
RE: Tweet  
TC : 1/18/2020 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14784856 Saos1n said:
Quote:


Quote:


Lots of Isaiah Simmons questions. Similar to how Ed Oliver did last year, Simmons declared for the draft prior to the 2019 season, which is why a formal announcement wasnít made from him like others have recently.


Thanks!

Answering my own question, I think he can and should play multiple roles in an NFL defense. Exceptional athleticism, length and burst, plus he's a thumper and has a nasty streak.

Highlights - ( New Window )
he seems redundant  
lightemup : 1/18/2020 3:34 pm : link
to Peppers. I will be really upset if we end up with simmons at 4. If they pass on Okudah to take Simmons I give up on this ownership
If Simmons lives up to  
santacruzom : 1/18/2020 3:39 pm : link
His projected potential, I think he'd be much better than Peppers.
Lightmeup  
SLIM_ : 1/18/2020 3:44 pm : link
I think He would augment Peppers. you get a true center fielder at free safety and you basically play a 4-2-5. Or 3-3-5.You have the ability to roll into a lot of different coverages. With our interior lineman, it would be a very interesting look.
RE: he seems redundant  
flycatcher : 1/18/2020 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14784871 lightemup said:
Quote:
to Peppers. I will be really upset if we end up with simmons at 4. If they pass on Okudah to take Simmons I give up on this ownership

Compared to peppers, Simmons is 4 inches taller and 20-30 pounds heavier - virtually the same weight as Devin White. Heís clearly a future NFL linebacker and heíll probably be a really good one.
RE: Lightmeup  
GiantsFan84 : 1/18/2020 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14784878 SLIM_ said:
Quote:
I think He would augment Peppers. you get a true center fielder at free safety and you basically play a 4-2-5. Or 3-3-5.You have the ability to roll into a lot of different coverages. With our interior lineman, it would be a very interesting look.


peppers is not a true center field type player
RE: Lightmeup  
Larry from WV : 1/18/2020 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14784878 SLIM_ said:
Quote:
I think He would augment Peppers. you get a true center fielder at free safety and you basically play a 4-2-5. Or 3-3-5.You have the ability to roll into a lot of different coverages. With our interior lineman, it would be a very interesting look.


Pretty much my thoughts. Our DL is big enough to help with the weakness of a 3-3-5 against the run. Having Peppers and Simmons both on the field would allow for a lot of flexibility in pressure and coverage. Only way I see it working is if we resign Williams.
Somebody mentioned Okudah  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 3:53 pm : link
Played safety in high school. Somebody mentioned McKinney as safety with the required zone talents.

I don't watch college ball and wondering who can talk in Simmons particularly in light of zone and deep zone instincts, scheme awareness.

Cover LB is a thing, deep zone is a very different thing, both is unusual in one player (if it's so) but you cannot clone players and ask them to do both tasks at once.

Both in one,- if so -, helps coach

BUT

it's not rely been spoken on

and the roster needs both skills sets:

i.e. two distinct players in any case, as you cannot politely ask wrs not to run deep as your 'only deep safety is busy with tight ends today.'

In other words even if you draft this guy you still need a deep zone db ie a free safety.
RE: RE: Lightmeup  
Big Blue '56 : 1/18/2020 3:53 pm : link
In comment 14784883 Larry from WV said:
Quote:
In comment 14784878 SLIM_ said:


Quote:


I think He would augment Peppers. you get a true center fielder at free safety and you basically play a 4-2-5. Or 3-3-5.You have the ability to roll into a lot of different coverages. With our interior lineman, it would be a very interesting look.



Pretty much my thoughts. Our DL is big enough to help with the weakness of a 3-3-5 against the run. Having Peppers and Simmons both on the field would allow for a lot of flexibility in pressure and coverage. Only way I see it working is if we resign Williams.


Wow Larry, a very, very, very long time. How are you?
Typo  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 3:54 pm : link
Not really been spoken on

Not rely "'
RE: he seems redundant  
LauderdaleMatty : 1/18/2020 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14784871 lightemup said:
Quote:
to Peppers. I will be really upset if we end up with simmons at 4. If they pass on Okudah to take Simmons I give up on this ownership


Peppers isnít half the player Simmons is. He was NEVER that good in college. Simmons may even grow out if S. Hate the pick if you think heís overrated but comparing him to Peppers silly. Peppers was moved out of The S spot because he couldnít cover at Mich. which is why he canít cover in the pros. Donít let the Mich fans tell you otherwise.
RE: RE: RE: Lightmeup  
Larry from WV : 1/18/2020 4:02 pm : link
In comment 14784886 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14784883 Larry from WV said:


Quote:


In comment 14784878 SLIM_ said:


Quote:


I think He would augment Peppers. you get a true center fielder at free safety and you basically play a 4-2-5. Or 3-3-5.You have the ability to roll into a lot of different coverages. With our interior lineman, it would be a very interesting look.



Pretty much my thoughts. Our DL is big enough to help with the weakness of a 3-3-5 against the run. Having Peppers and Simmons both on the field would allow for a lot of flexibility in pressure and coverage. Only way I see it working is if we resign Williams.



Wow Larry, a very, very, very long time. How are you?


Doing good. Just moved to NC so the family is getting adjusted.
Could be a super Tampa 2 prototype MLB  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/18/2020 4:04 pm : link
but then again we have more man cover corners.
RE: If Simmons lives up to  
Vanzetti : 1/18/2020 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14784872 santacruzom said:
Quote:
His projected potential, I think he'd be much better than Peppers.


Thatís not exactly setting the bar high
Simmons played . . . .  
TC : 1/18/2020 4:22 pm : link
DB & WR in high school, and played safety in 2017 at Clemson. While moved to LB in 2018, it wasn't because he couldn't play safety. If you watch how they used him, they had him all over the field. He's not jut a LB. The video suggests he's got the burst and range to cover as a safety, including the ability to cover WR down the field.

While a different body type, his athleticism, speed, strength, versatility and impact on games reminds me of a former Giants defender.


I just think we get verbally lazy and say  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 4:23 pm : link
Cover when we mean zone pass defense and visa versa .


And we see smaller lbs that can cover and think 'safety' whereas even with (or especially with) cover corners you still need your free safety to be excellent at zone pass defense which is predicated on a harder to measure skill set (as opposed to just speed / weight). Not to discount speed .

I don't know about this one player, but those are issues that one could put on an agenda this off season .
RE: RE: he seems redundant  
aGiantGuy : 1/18/2020 4:27 pm : link
In comment 14784891 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 14784871 lightemup said:


Quote:


to Peppers. I will be really upset if we end up with simmons at 4. If they pass on Okudah to take Simmons I give up on this ownership



Peppers isnít half the player Simmons is. He was NEVER that good in college. Simmons may even grow out if S. Hate the pick if you think heís overrated but comparing him to Peppers silly. Peppers was moved out of The S spot because he couldnít cover at Mich. which is why he canít cover in the pros. Donít let the Mich fans tell you otherwise.


You do realize Peppers was a Heisman trophy finalist...
Anyways, Peppers was moved out of the safety spot because he was better in underneath coverage then he was in deep coverage, that doesnít mean he canít cover.

Simmons may be bigger and faster, but Peppers was a very productive collegiate in his own right. Bettcher had him manned up on teís the whole year and this is the best year weíve had against teís in a decade. I donít think thatís a coincidence
So, if you see excellent  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 4:31 pm : link
Diagnose and read instincts in this one but plan to at times use him up close to the line , then you still need a very good free safety as well.

If one is actually guessing at those skills due to a few plays or due to seeing cover skills (great but different ),... then you still need a free safety.


Some players at safety are coachable but don't have the wheels.

Some have the wheels but cannot anticipate, ergo never get INTs. +Kenny Phillips.

Having both speed and great anticipation / diagnose is -vastly- undervalued and worth more than the extra 10-15lbs.

Heís not a LB  
WillVAB : 1/18/2020 4:43 pm : link
Heís a slot corner/safety. The Giants shouldnít be building around that at 4.

Heís a luxury pick the Giants canít afford to make.
Heís  
aGiantGuy : 1/18/2020 4:46 pm : link
Not a slot corner in the NFL, heíd get toasted
I donít see slot corner at all  
UConn4523 : 1/18/2020 4:54 pm : link
hybrid role for sure but not there. Heís an interesting player and donít consider a very versatile player like him a ďluxuryĒ especially now that we have a HC that will want players that can take on different roles if able.
I have no idea  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 4:55 pm : link
But there's even a huge skills
differrentiation between slot and safety

Deep safety... even more so, due to the area inside the radius of a 40yd pass encompassing so many variables, requiring great vision as well .

IF this guy is 'lt 2' as a lb that can "shadow any tight end and many wrs step for step .as well as spy the fastest qbs"...fine . If you can use him fine.

You still need a free safety, because that's a different skill set and position .

If this guy has 20+ games showing outstanding diagnose, read and go get the ball or prospective ball carrier before the catch, preventing the catch ....that would be another story
.I don't watch college ball and not looking at #s right now either.

This team needs 2 great instinctive and speedy -zone- players at S.
.that will work wonders if you can do simplify the corners assignments that way

Given a choice between  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 5:05 pm : link
A. 225lbs 4.4 decent average field vision

Or

B. 198lbs 4.4 with uncanny diagnose read and get to the play -zone- field vision.

In other words even if you don't know what your assignment will be until after the snap, you still get it done .

I'm going "B" until such time as that position is filled redundantly.

Then get "a" if you can use him.

RE: Heís not a LB  
Vanzetti : 1/18/2020 5:09 pm : link
In comment 14784918 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Heís a slot corner/safety. The Giants shouldnít be building around that at 4.

Heís a luxury pick the Giants canít afford to make.


I donít agree. He is 230+ lbs and 6í3Ē

He has played LB the last two years and won the Butkus award. I donít where this idea came about his being in the secondary. He is a LB
Reputed to run . . . .  
TC : 1/18/2020 5:18 pm : link
around a 4.3 40, and have an 11'10" vertical, Simmons is the virtual definition of "uncanny diagnose read and get to the play -zone- field vision." Watch the plays in the video I posted.
TC wow  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 5:27 pm : link
If that's true and if he can play deep than just sign him and play him deep.

I won't quibble .

I'm just saying:

Kam Chancellor had Earl Thomas .

An Earl Thomas would change this team from the get go.

If this guy's a giant Earl Thomas than it's that simple . But, again , I'm not looking.

Think an innovative DC could use this guy everywhere and anywhere.  
TMS : 1/18/2020 5:30 pm : link
Ubfortunitely we will not get him in this draft unless Detroit trades down or out of the 3 spot. Our reward for winning the Skins game and losing out on the two best defensive players in the draft. MO
Way too risky a pick for a reeling Giants team  
cosmicj : 1/18/2020 5:34 pm : link
The fact that we are even arguing about what is his true position is a tell that he shouldnít be considered at 4.

And then thereís the fact that his likely position, at SS, is manned by a player specifically acquired in a major trade last season makes it a nonstarter for yet another reason.

Then thereís the debate about whether that position is a key one in todayís NFL...

Just say no.
TC  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 5:39 pm : link
I watched a bit o highlights. Not seeing Earl Thomas . Very nifty at lb though and I'm not discounting a few plays deep in the short highlights piece .

If one does draft him your probably still looking for a free safety at Rd #2. A deep zone player. Unless that's on a different highlight vid. There's one play like that and one play cover style . Again, not looking.
RE: Think an innovative DC could use this guy everywhere and anywhere.  
UConn4523 : 1/18/2020 5:48 pm : link
In comment 14784954 TMS said:
Quote:
Ubfortunitely we will not get him in this draft unless Detroit trades down or out of the 3 spot. Our reward for winning the Skins game and losing out on the two best defensive players in the draft. MO


Thatís a very short sighted view of things. Trade ups happen all the time and thereís no guarantee anyone picking in the top 3 even stay where they are. 2 QBs may got in the first 3 picks - we know nothing right now.
My guess is that he is not a LB  
giantstock : 1/18/2020 5:53 pm : link
Unless you move him there in obvious pass situations. He looks like he'd get completely steamrolled by those physical running offensive teams.
Nobody is saying he wouldn't be useful  
idiotsavant : 1/18/2020 6:00 pm : link
But as Giants fans it's almost like our mini stockholm syndrome. To not even ask for the great free safety. Earl Thomas had frigging 30 career INTs.

30. That paired well with Kam C.

Maybe this guy's better than Kam but it looks like apples and oranges and we all know which is more needed at this point . The deep zone player.

Both would be fun.

RE: RE: Heís not a LB  
WillVAB : 1/18/2020 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14784938 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
In comment 14784918 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Heís a slot corner/safety. The Giants shouldnít be building around that at 4.

Heís a luxury pick the Giants canít afford to make.



I donít agree. He is 230+ lbs and 6í3Ē

He has played LB the last two years and won the Butkus award. I donít where this idea came about his being in the secondary. He is a LB


I donít see him translating as a LB at the next level. Especially not with the league moving more towards a smashmouth style of football.

Heís not a physical run defender. Hell he doesnít look like a physical player at all to me. I donít see where he fits in this defense.

If youíre a team like the niners with a loaded defense you take a chance on Simmons. The D around him is pretty set so you just try to get creative with him so he can make plays.

The Giants donít have that luxury. Theyíre still solidifying the foundation of the defense. Simmons is window dressing not the concrete.
Hell he doesnít look like a physical player at all to me.  
TC : 1/18/2020 8:26 pm : link
Look again. If all you're looking at his physique, you're not seeing what he's doing on the field. He's incredibly physical.

He's tall, and he's skinny, and he's not going to shed interior lineman to make a living, but he's EXTREMELY strong and physical. In fact, he can be downright nasty. Watch the video and then tell me he isn't physical.

Whether he's used in some hybrid role, or as LB, there are plenty of players in the NFL who aren't any bigger, and he's a hell of a lot more effective than many of them.

Hell, he could be a LB version of Ted Hendricks! ;-)

Video Highlights - ( New Window )
If heís not on par with Derwin James  
Dave in PA : 1/18/2020 8:47 pm : link
I wouldnít select him at 4
Is there a better match for what Judge is looking for?  
Eman11 : 1/18/2020 8:53 pm : link
The versatility, instincts, speed, and the Giants need for help on D make him almost too good to be true.

I keep hearing how this guy could be a big time player if used right and I'm pretty confident Judge and his D staff will take advantage of all his strengths and make him a matchup nightmare for teams. Never knowing where he'll be or what he'll be doing from one play to the next.

To me if he doesn't go #3 he should be our pick at #4.
RE: Hell he doesnít look like a physical player at all to me.  
giantstock : 1/18/2020 8:56 pm : link
In comment 14785065 TC said:
Quote:

Hell, he could be a LB version of Ted Hendricks! ;-) Video Highlights - ( New Window )


And I'll win a billion dollars in powerball. It's possible.
RE: Is there a better match for what Judge is looking for?  
giantstock : 1/18/2020 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14785083 Eman11 said:
Quote:
The versatility, instincts, speed, and the Giants need for help on D make him almost too good to be true.

I keep hearing how this guy could be a big time player if used right and I'm pretty confident Judge and his D staff will take advantage of all his strengths and make him a matchup nightmare for teams. Never knowing where he'll be or what he'll be doing from one play to the next.

To me if he doesn't go #3 he should be our pick at #4.


When we got McAdoo all I heard was how great things were going to be. When we got Shurmur and DG and Betcher all I heard how terrific things were going to be. Now our new coach is the next "Vince Lombardi.:" -- Ummmm ok.

Well if we Simmons hope he's a beast.
Closing speed  
Professor Falken : 1/18/2020 9:19 pm : link
is really good in those highlights. He gains ground on guys in a hurry.
Dane Brugler on the Athletic  
Steve in ATL : 1/18/2020 9:25 pm : link
has Simmons going 9th in his January 14 mock.

Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Is there a better match for what Judge is looking for?  
Eman11 : 1/19/2020 12:30 am : link
In comment 14785091 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14785083 Eman11 said:


Quote:


The versatility, instincts, speed, and the Giants need for help on D make him almost too good to be true.

I keep hearing how this guy could be a big time player if used right and I'm pretty confident Judge and his D staff will take advantage of all his strengths and make him a matchup nightmare for teams. Never knowing where he'll be or what he'll be doing from one play to the next.

To me if he doesn't go #3 he should be our pick at #4.



When we got McAdoo all I heard was how great things were going to be. When we got Shurmur and DG and Betcher all I heard how terrific things were going to be. Now our new coach is the next "Vince Lombardi.:" -- Ummmm ok.

Well if we Simmons hope he's a beast.


Where exactly in my post did you get me saying Judge is the next Vince Lombardi?

He doesn't have to be the greatest coach ever to take advantage of all of Simmons strengths. He and his staff just have to be good,smart coaches to do that. Just because I'm confident they are doesn't mean I think they're the greatest ever or expect them to be.
RE: Reputed to run . . . .  
santacruzom : 1/19/2020 3:15 am : link
In comment 14784942 TC said:
Quote:
around a 4.3 40, and have an 11'10" vertical,


Holy shit, a vertical of nearly 12 feet?? No one would ever make a FG against us!
RE: Hell he doesnít look like a physical player at all to me.  
WillVAB : 1/19/2020 10:16 am : link
In comment 14785065 TC said:
Quote:
Look again. If all you're looking at his physique, you're not seeing what he's doing on the field. He's incredibly physical.

He's tall, and he's skinny, and he's not going to shed interior lineman to make a living, but he's EXTREMELY strong and physical. In fact, he can be downright nasty. Watch the video and then tell me he isn't physical.

Whether he's used in some hybrid role, or as LB, there are plenty of players in the NFL who aren't any bigger, and he's a hell of a lot more effective than many of them.

Hell, he could be a LB version of Ted Hendricks! ;-) Video Highlights - ( New Window )


In that entire clip he beat blockers twice ó bad RBs in pass pro. The rest of the time he was roaming around or making plays off the edge untouched.

If the Giants are going to build a D and scheme to let him roam around and make plays, then I guess heíd be ok. I donít know how viable that strategy is.

More and more teams are rolling out multiple TE sets and formations with extra lineman. How will he perform forced to take on blockers?

I donít see the fit for the Giants at 4.
RE: RE: RE: Is there a better match for what Judge is looking for?  
giantstock : 1/19/2020 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14785175 Eman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14785091 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14785083 Eman11 said:


Quote:


The versatility, instincts, speed, and the Giants need for help on D make him almost too good to be true.

I keep hearing how this guy could be a big time player if used right and I'm pretty confident Judge and his D staff will take advantage of all his strengths and make him a matchup nightmare for teams. Never knowing where he'll be or what he'll be doing from one play to the next.

To me if he doesn't go #3 he should be our pick at #4.



When we got McAdoo all I heard was how great things were going to be. When we got Shurmur and DG and Betcher all I heard how terrific things were going to be. Now our new coach is the next "Vince Lombardi.:" -- Ummmm ok.

Well if we Simmons hope he's a beast.



Where exactly in my post did you get me saying Judge is the next Vince Lombardi?

He doesn't have to be the greatest coach ever to take advantage of all of Simmons strengths. He and his staff just have to be good,smart coaches to do that. Just because I'm confident they are doesn't mean I think they're the greatest ever or expect them to be.


I didn't say that you said anything about McAdoo or shurmur either. It's the tone from many of you-- you seem to think just because a head coach - an unproven head coach-- talks "versatility" that it means that is exactly the right pick to make. Because the inexperienced coach made a speech before he ever coached a nfl game? Seriously?

In other words, Judge "talks" he wants versatility therefore there seems to be a narrative that you MUST draft "the more versatile player" when in fact you might have a player less versatile who is a stud --- and just plain better. Sure- the guy who hasn't been a head coach yet in the NFL let's just assume versatility is the best path for the number 4 pick regardless of BPA because Judge desires "versatility" and "versatility" will win vs bpa. It's not like Judge is some proven head coach guru. Right now it's all talk.
Probably can play many positions  
TMS : 1/25/2020 7:21 pm : link
because of his skill set. Up to our Coaches to evaluate him and use him well. Do not think he gets to us at #4. Sorry to say.
You don't draft safeties or positionless players at 4  
Soundtrack : 1/25/2020 7:30 pm : link
Can't do it. Would be as nonsensical as the Barkley pick was. Needs to be an OT or another high value position like CB.
No thanks  
uther99 : 1/25/2020 7:56 pm : link
need a sure thing at 4th pick, Simmons can't get off blocks.
As others have said  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/25/2020 8:51 pm : link
If we don't know his position you don't take that player #4 overall.

I don't see it.

As I've said in other threads, some aren't appreciating how QBs rise. I think Herbert and Tua both go higher than the positionless player.

He's not going top 5 imv.
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