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Interesting tweet about Isaiah Simmons & NFL LBs

Big Rick in FL : 1/18/2020 5:53 pm
I keep seeing people that say they are worried about Isaiah Simmons size and that he's too small to play LB in the NFL. So I just figured I'd post this little comparison.


Quote:
@KSIXI:
Kwon Alexander 6-1, 227
Deion Jones 6-2, 222
Shaq Thompson 6-0, 230
Lavonte David 6-1, 233
Cory Littleton 6-3, 228
Roquan Smith 6-0, 230
Fred Warner 6-0, 230
Darius Leonard 6-2, 230
De'Vondre Campbell 6-3, 232

Isaiah Simmons is 6-4, 230. He can play LB in the NFL if he wants.


He's only 21 so he should be able to put on some good weight without losing his speed. Speaking of his speed a couple months ago he raced Travis Etienne and it was extremely close. I couldn't tell who won, but I did read that Etienne ran a 4.43 coming out of high school. If that time is legit I fully expect Simmons to run high 4.3s or low 4.4s which is just insane
I don't think his size is the issue as much as his  
robbieballs2003 : 1/18/2020 5:55 pm : link
functional strength playing in the box.
..  
BleedBlue : 1/18/2020 5:55 pm : link
the whole he is too small is just something someone on BBI regurgitated that they heard someone who doesnt know anything say.



based on his size he CAN play LBer, but my concern with him as a a LBer is his ability at the point of atack. how does he take on blockers? does he use his hands and work leverage? does he understand how to shed blocks but still maintain run integrity. that being said, i am interested to see him workout at combine and stuff
RE: ..  
Soundtrack : 1/18/2020 5:57 pm : link
In comment 14784977 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
the whole he is too small is just something someone on BBI regurgitated that they heard someone who doesnt know anything say.



based on his size he CAN play LBer, but my concern with him as a a LBer is his ability at the point of atack. how does he take on blockers? does he use his hands and work leverage?


Isn't that what we're going to give Williams a bajillion dollars for?
He does have some difficulty playing off blocks from NFL linemen,  
Ira : 1/18/2020 5:58 pm : link
but he should get stronger and better in that area. He's a true sideline to sideline linebacker, a very good tackler and great in pass defense.
Its a different game  
blueblood : 1/18/2020 5:59 pm : link
Linebackers dont need to be 250+ lbs anymore.. They need to be able to cover and move in space. Luke Kuechley is what.. 6'3 and 238lbs.. no one questions his ability to cover or hit...

Simmons will probably put on 5-7 lbs just from NFL conditioning and growing..

I'm not even worried about it..

How big was Jack Ham? How big was Jack Lambert? about the same size as these other guys listed..
Think he is the next superstar but we will not get him at  
TMS : 1/18/2020 5:59 pm : link
#4.Unfortunitely.
RE: Think he is the next superstar but we will not get him at  
blueblood : 1/18/2020 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14784982 TMS said:
Quote:
#4.Unfortunitely.



Think Positive.. watch.. Someone is going to trade up with Detroit and take Tua.. Simmons might be right there for the taking..
'sideline to sideline LB, very good tackler and great in pass defense'  
Torrag : 1/18/2020 6:03 pm : link
He also really developed as a blitzer this year. He has things to work on but he's got a toolbox full of NFL skills combined with rare athleticism and length. He should have great value and impact for a defense that wants to be multiple and play situational football...which is where we're headed with this coaching staff.
When Kuechly  
aGiantGuy : 1/18/2020 6:11 pm : link
Just got in the league, he was 255, guess he had to slim down a bit. Same thing with Von miller
RE: Think he is the next superstar but we will not get him at  
Saquads26 : 1/18/2020 6:11 pm : link
In comment 14784982 TMS said:
Quote:
#4.Unfortunitely.


Disagree.. it’s going Burrow, Young then Okudah/someone trading up for a QB
It's not his size  
Joey in VA : 1/18/2020 6:12 pm : link
It's how he's built and what kind of player he is. He can absolutely play LB but he's going to get blocked out of a lot of stuff because he lacks power and he's very very long and rangy. He's not a short area power guy, no matter what his listed anything is, it's just not how he's built. He's going to be a run and chase guy, not a thumper inside and that's fine in most cases.
Post talks about Simmons  
Indigo Grande : 1/18/2020 6:15 pm : link
Significantly higher usage of multiple DB sets and this kid can do it all.

A better Jabril Peppers.

Take him , Okudah or a LT.

"The linebacker position has evolved unlike any other over the past decade,” Michael Renner of Pro Football Focus wrote. “In 2009, defenses had five or more defensive backs in on only 35.7 percent of plays. This season, that number is 58.0 percent, and it’s only climbing. … No one has displayed a more versatile skillset than Clemson’s Isaiah Simmons "
NYPost - ( New Window )
RE: It's not his size  
blueblood : 1/18/2020 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14784993 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
It's how he's built and what kind of player he is. He can absolutely play LB but he's going to get blocked out of a lot of stuff because he lacks power and he's very very long and rangy. He's not a short area power guy, no matter what his listed anything is, it's just not how he's built. He's going to be a run and chase guy, not a thumper inside and that's fine in most cases.


ill be ecstatic to have a LB who can finally cover RB and TE
Basically, he's a bigger version...  
bw in dc : 1/18/2020 6:20 pm : link
of Minkah Fiztpatrick right now.

In fact, Clemson has deployed Simmons in a very similar manner that Saban did with MF.

There is a legit criticism that Simmons has too narrow a frame to had the physical demands of LB in the NFL. I can see the point.

I think there is more room for his body to grow. And if he gets the right coaching, he could adapt quite well.

I'm mostly in the camp with those who want more speed on defense and the ability to cover TEs, RBs, and maybe even slot receivers. Simmons seems to have that in spades...

So I could live with Simmons at #4. But would rather find a solution at Edge or OL...

Well, that's how I feel today. ;)
give me  
BleedBlue : 1/18/2020 6:23 pm : link
okudah or simmons as long as we make at least one starter OL signing in FA.

unless one of these OTs rise up the board, its one of those two guys IMO
I am a little concern he is a tweener in the NFL  
George from PA : 1/18/2020 6:24 pm : link
.
Right now at 4  
Breeze_94 : 1/18/2020 6:30 pm : link
its Okudah or Simmons for me. Defense is the Giants weakness and they need impact players badly. Okudah would be a great fit since Graham plays mostly man-to-man. Simmons would be an impact LB who can cover TE's and RB's.

Then, R2 go OL. Hopefully a guy like Biadasz or Austin Jackson is there although there are plenty of other options as well
No issue  
BobsYourUncle : 1/18/2020 6:38 pm : link
With his size or athleticism... My question is in his "want it"... I've seen many Clemson games this season where I saw an amazing athlete... but not a DOG.
RE: ..  
Big Rick in FL : 1/18/2020 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14784977 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
the whole he is too small is just something someone on BBI regurgitated that they heard someone who doesnt know anything say.



based on his size he CAN play LBer, but my concern with him as a a LBer is his ability at the point of atack. how does he take on blockers? does he use his hands and work leverage? does he understand how to shed blocks but still maintain run integrity. that being said, i am interested to see him workout at combine and stuff


The ability to shed blockers is questioned for basically every top LB that's come out of college for the last 10 years. I did a little research on this subject a week or so ago. Patrick Willis, Luke Kuechly, Navarro Bowman, Bobby Wagner, Devin White etc all had question marks on their ability to shed blockers.
RE: 'sideline to sideline LB, very good tackler and great in pass defense'  
Big Rick in FL : 1/18/2020 6:44 pm : link
In comment 14784988 Torrag said:
Quote:
He also really developed as a blitzer this year. He has things to work on but he's got a toolbox full of NFL skills combined with rare athleticism and length. He should have great value and impact for a defense that wants to be multiple and play situational football...which is where we're headed with this coaching staff.


Yes he was very good rushing the passer this year. He had 71 pass rush snaps. On those 71 pass rush snaps he had 8 sacks and 5 hurries. I can't find a stat for QB hits or pressures. Getting a sack on every 8.8 times he rushed the passer is absurd.
This  
PaulN : 1/18/2020 6:51 pm : link
Is the pick I want, this guy could become a game changer, we add a pass rusher with this guy and the continued development of Williams, Lawrence, Hill, Ximines, Connelly, Carter, and McIntosh and we could become forminable next season.
RE: I am a little concern he is a tweener in the NFL  
Big Rick in FL : 1/18/2020 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14785001 George from PA said:
Quote:
.


You say this like it's a bad thing. He's not a tweener. He's versatile. He played everywhere in college. Edge rusher, ILB, OLB, FS, SS, outside CB and slot CB. That's what he was asked to do in college. Most likely NFL teams aren't going to give him that much responsibility, but he's a guy who never has to come off the field. Idk why people think it's a negative thing that he can play more than one position.

Someone compared him to Minkah, but I think a better comparison is Derwin James. He's a bigger, faster, stronger Derwin James IMO.
PFF Grades for Simmons just tweeted  
Saquads26 : 1/18/2020 7:03 pm : link
Isaiah Simmons:

Run-defense: 84.4
Pass-rush: 81.1
Coverage: 88.2
The size issue  
giant power : 1/18/2020 7:05 pm : link
regarding Simmons is absurd. Deone Bucannon evolutionized the position with the Money-backer-style linebacker playing at 6'3'' and 222 LBs. There have been many that have followed. Marc Barron is 6'2'' at 213 LBS and Jaylon Smith came out of ND at 6'2'' and 223 LBs, just to name a few. Smith plays smack in the middle of the Cowboys D. Simmons started playing in High School at 140 LBs. He has put on 90 LBs of pure muscle. He has 5% body fat and he is a 21 year old kid. I do not understand what the hell people are looking at. His jersey can not contain his muscles, the kid is ripped. He is just starting to fill out his amazing frame, he will get stronger. The team that is fortunate to land this kid will have a generational talent for years to come.
Simmons & Etienne  
Professor Falken : 1/18/2020 7:11 pm : link
in a race. Crazy.
Simmons - ( New Window )
Watch the guy tackle and see that he HITS.  
732NYG : 1/18/2020 7:19 pm : link
I don’t get the argument that he’s not physical enough for the game because there are plenty of examples of him taking down a ball carrier or QB in a very physical manner. The call for a “thumper” type is kind of funny because those are not the LBs of today’s NFL. You shouldn’t be looking for a Jeremiah Trotter type. That kind of player would get targeted every down with that skill set. The dude is a freak of nature, and his grades are pretty damn good in all areas of the game.
I am more worried about his wonderlic than 10lbs  
Prude : 1/18/2020 7:21 pm : link
If he's going to be in the middle of the field can he diagnose plays, help guys get lined up, call out assignments and learn the entire defense inside and out? You can always put on some weight and gain strength, he's got the athletic ability but a middle lb at #4 has to do more that just cover receivers. Need a leader, not just an athlete.
How does he compare to a guy like Urlacher coming out of NM?  
djm : 1/18/2020 7:35 pm : link
...i don’t remember Urlacher carrying a very physical label as much as he was very athletic and versatile. He did bulk up to 258, 20 pounds heavier than the last college game he played in. And he ran a 4.59. Bears were all over him after that.
Link - ( New Window )
He bulked up to 258  
djm : 1/18/2020 7:35 pm : link
Right before the nfl combine.
He's not  
Professor Falken : 1/18/2020 7:38 pm : link
a middle linebacker. Connelly would be calling the defense.

As for Wonderlic, this kid has top notch intelligence and character. Already got his degree from Clemson.
RE: Its a different game  
Ivan15 : 1/18/2020 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14784981 blueblood said:
Quote:
Linebackers dont need to be 250+ lbs anymore.. They need to be able to cover and move in space. Luke Kuechley is what.. 6'3 and 238lbs.. no one questions his ability to cover or hit...

Simmons will probably put on 5-7 lbs just from NFL conditioning and growing..

I'm not even worried about it..

without looking it up, I would bet that Lambert and Ham weighed a lot more than the guys listed. In those days, any LB under 240 was small.
How big was Jack Ham? How big was Jack Lambert? about the same size as these other guys listed..
RE: He's not  
Prude : 1/18/2020 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14785033 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
a middle linebacker. Connelly would be calling the defense.

As for Wonderlic, this kid has top notch intelligence and character. Already got his degree from Clemson.


Sounds pretty good so far. Ideally i'd rather trade back if that is an option. We will see.
Ray Lewis android Derrick Brooks were run and chase guys  
jlukes : 1/18/2020 8:11 pm : link
And if we re-sign Williams then we will have the beef along the d-line to let Simmons run free
It isn't about his size it's about what position he can play  
BillT : 1/18/2020 8:20 pm : link
A 4-3 Will. Sure. Perfect. A 3-4 Sam, not likely. Seems he's not as good a fit for a 3-4 at all on the outside at his size but there are always exceptions. Would he be a better fit inside in a 3-4? I don't know but that's a possibility.
I pointed this out a week or so ago  
montanagiant : 1/18/2020 8:22 pm : link
And everyone thought I was nuts for claiming the avg LB weight is 220. I was as stunned as them until I looked it up. he has the frame to easily put 15 lbs on
Isaiah Simmons by alignment for Clemson in 2019:  
muhajir : 1/18/2020 10:31 pm : link
* Safety: 218 snaps
* Slot CB: 286 snaps
* OLB: 160 snaps
* ILB/MLB: 120 snaps
* Perimeter CB: 17 snaps

He rushed the passer 71 times and had *7* sacks.

That is some insane versatility.
Love this kid  
jpkmets : 1/18/2020 11:41 pm : link
He and a healthy Connelly would improve the LB athleticism by an insane degree.
RE: Love this kid  
Soundtrack : 1/19/2020 1:05 am : link
In comment 14785168 jpkmets said:
Quote:
He and a healthy Connelly would improve the LB athleticism by an insane degree.


He's played all of 2 NFL games. Let's not do the same crap we did with Halipo in 2019. Get an actual player with a resume in FA rather than gifting a player a starting job because they looked good for 2 games and then tore some lower body ligament.
RE: RE: ..  
Leg of Theismann : 1/19/2020 3:29 am : link
In comment 14784979 Soundtrack said:
Quote:
In comment 14784977 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


the whole he is too small is just something someone on BBI regurgitated that they heard someone who doesnt know anything say.



based on his size he CAN play LBer, but my concern with him as a a LBer is his ability at the point of atack. how does he take on blockers? does he use his hands and work leverage?



Isn't that what we're going to give Williams a bajillion dollars for?


Believe it or not, offenses design schemes to block linebackers, too, not just D-Linemen.

Also, I know Graham has stated he is not about committing to a 4-3 or a 3-4, but the roster is currently built to be a 3-4. I say this because you mentioned Williams, who is a 3-4 DE: the 3-man front in a 3-4 does not keep LBs as clean as a 4-3 (for the obvious reason that there are fewer DL). From Simmons' scouting report:

"This player must remain covered up in an even front scheme and should remain on the weak side to utilize his athleticism. He doesn’t have true schematic versatility. If coveted by a 3-4 team he will struggle as an inside LB due to his lack of strength to stack and shed. "

Sometimes when watching Clemson I wonder if they only bring Simmons up to play LB when they know the play they have called is designed to keep him clean, and otherwise if not they just drop him back in coverage (which he had plenty of speed to be able to do, at least at the college level). I'd actually be interested to go back and see if he was used more as a LB when they had 4 guys in front of him with their hand in the dirt.

Either way, being able to fight through and shed blocks is probably the most important thing for linebackers (besides just basic tackling I suppose). Clemson's DL is extremely good and has kept him pretty clean for the most part, but in the NFL as a linebacker you're going to have to fight through blocks, it's inevitable. And one of Judge's main priorities he has stated is being tough and physical. From what I've seen from Simmons, athletically he is plenty worth the #4 pick, but the question is as a football player (and specifically a linebacker) is he worth the #4 pick?
Also  
Leg of Theismann : 1/19/2020 3:34 am : link
I've seen multiple credible sources say "he's no Devin White," who was taken at #5 in the 2019 draft. I mean Devin White is a high bar to clear as a prospect, sure, but I do somewhat cringe at the idea of using the #4 pick on a guy many people seem to be certain is a lesser prospect than White.
I wonder is slain straw men bleed?  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/19/2020 3:50 am : link
Of course the issue isn't Simmons' size really. Not at all, and I don't think many have said that, although a few mentioned his slender frame.

The issue is he doesn't take on or fight his way through blocks, as many here have noted.

Mike Singletary was 5'11" and 230, Patrick Willis about the same, but each of them hit like a ton of bricks, and willingly took on OGs and OCs. Simmons doesn't.

I wouldn't touch this guy in the first half of round 1, unless I was sure he's gonna be a dynamic S.
He's a  
mavric : 1/19/2020 9:27 am : link
I've seen too many players analyzed based solely on their physical features and athletic ability. And then stand around scratching their heads because it doesn't translate to a good football player. That's because they fail to consider that it's about "heart" and being a "real" football player. It would take a book to record every great football player who didn't fit the "perfect size/speed/height ideal".

Here's Simmon's stats for this past season:

RE: It's not his size  
micky : 1/19/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 14784993 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
It's how he's built and what kind of player he is. He can absolutely play LB but he's going to get blocked out of a lot of stuff because he lacks power and he's very very long and rangy. He's not a short area power guy, no matter what his listed anything is, it's just not how he's built. He's going to be a run and chase guy, not a thumper inside and that's fine in most cases.




Then it's best not to draft this kid
RE: RE: It's not his size  
mavric : 1/19/2020 11:18 am : link
In comment 14785362 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 14784993 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


It's how he's built and what kind of player he is. He can absolutely play LB but he's going to get blocked out of a lot of stuff because he lacks power and he's very very long and rangy. He's not a short area power guy, no matter what his listed anything is, it's just not how he's built. He's going to be a run and chase guy, not a thumper inside and that's fine in most cases.





Then it's best not to draft this kid


You are probably going to be disappointed on draft day
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