It’s been 3 weeks since the season ended. Unfortunately, the season was lost in October again, so the speculation begun early this year. I’d say the overall feeling here was that Shurmur would be retained while his staff would be overhauled. A lot here thought that Mara would not want to fire Shurmur so soon.
As the losses piled up though, it was tougher and tougher to envision Shurmur returning. The question then turned to Gettleman. A nice Eli farewell win was able to distract everyone briefly. But, a lot has happened in 3 weeks:
-Most people here said Mara would go the safe route with HC (Rivera, McCarthy or Garrett). He did not go this route, he went far riskier. Taking a chance on Joe Judge & finally hiring a true CEO type coach. The hire is refreshing to me, because it represents a change in direction (less focused on the offense, more on the program/overall team).
-Judge seems to have full authority on the staff. People will point to Garrett as reason to not think this, but I don’t buy that. Garrett started his coaching career under Saban. Most of the staff has Belichick/Saban routes.
-Gettleman being retained will bother a lot here, but I’m hoping that Judge develops a culture here and has full authority to do whatever it takes to build the program as he sees fit.
-The team has moved on from Eli. I give the Giants some slack here while many posters here give them none. So many here don’t realize how difficult it is to move on from a franchise legend. A 2x SB MVP at QB, while the decline started in 2016, there was a human element here. It isn’t an assembly line. If every franchise operated like an assembly line, Ben would be out in Pittsburgh this year. Rivers would absolutely be gone from the Chargers. There would be no question about Brady being out in NE.
The 2nd Super Bowl changed a lot here & yes, it led to a stretch of shitty football. But, there are a lot of high performing franchises which have NOT gotten that 2nd title with their current franchise QB (Saints, Packers currently), Colts never got there with Peyton. Point I’m trying to make here, it is finally a clean slate and the bandaid has been ripped off. It’s important.
I think we all get wrapped up in how a team should win. What do the analytics say? What are the trends? I still believe you need to build an identity & then do it exceptionally well. It doesn’t matter how you play, you just need to be incredibly sound in however you play. The Titans are proof of this.
Free agency is very crucial. The goal should be to be shrewd & maintain cap flexibility. I hope Gettleman is telling the truth when he says he’s going to put $20M aside and not touch it.
Overall, I’m encouraged & hopeful as to what this offseason brings.
Very excited to get what looks like a competent person running the team.
...the game is on the field.
If we see progress next season, everyone will feel better.
Until then, what's there to feel good about a laughing stock franchise sitting in the bottom of the NFL barrel?
Very excited to get what looks like a competent person running the team.
Couldn’t agree more.... We needed to swing for the fences after bunting with the Shurmur hire.
Elsewhere, the roster is still really bereft of talent in key areas. The entire OL is still in question, there is no good pass rusher, no good linebacker.
From a team building standpoint, the big question on the horizon is whether Barkley is truly worth considering a long term building block. As long as Gettleman is in the building the answer to that question will be yes.
Personally I'm pinning my hopes on Judge being the guy he appeared to be in his press conference, and seeing him gradually usurp team building responsibilities away from Gettleman...paving the way for a new structure once Gettleman leaves and Abrams is inevitably ushered in as the next GM. It's clear that the organizational change many of us think is needed is not coming. This is and will continue to be run as a family business. I have my fingers crossed that Judge will exert increasing influence through the weight of his competence and personality.
In total, this is a team with far more questions than answers.
...the game is on the field.
If we see progress next season, everyone will feel better.
Until then, what's there to feel good about a laughing stock franchise sitting in the bottom of the NFL barrel?
correctamundo. I'll consider the corner turned when the Giants acquire a legitimate center, left tackle, and right tackle. We all know what the defense needs. No need to itemize that aspect.
Future seems bright.
IMO coaching lost the Giants several games last year and set the young players development back.
the team last year had an opportunity to win 6 to 9 games.
I feel the upgrades at coordinator alone will improve the record of this team.
I think a defensive scheme tailored to the talent that is already in place will make a monumental difference. hence why the Giants went with a guy like Patrick Graham
Judge made a point on numerous occasions to emphasize using players in the right positions
with Garrett in place to balance out the HC experience, I'm truly elated and excited.
Especially after being a Mets fan this week, Garrett signing was the best part of my week.
Presuming the coaching has improved, the next step is the general management not compounding or repeating mistakes.
The Mara's are still calling all the shots. Gettleman and Abrams are still the figureheads carrying out their orders. Good luck Joe you're going to need it.
Elsewhere, the roster is still really bereft of talent in key areas. The entire OL is still in question, there is no good pass rusher, no good linebacker.
From a team building standpoint, the big question on the horizon is whether Barkley is truly worth considering a long term building block. As long as Gettleman is in the building the answer to that question will be yes.
Personally I'm pinning my hopes on Judge being the guy he appeared to be in his press conference, and seeing him gradually usurp team building responsibilities away from Gettleman...paving the way for a new structure once Gettleman leaves and Abrams is inevitably ushered in as the next GM. It's clear that the organizational change many of us think is needed is not coming. This is and will continue to be run as a family business. I have my fingers crossed that Judge will exert increasing influence through the weight of his competence and personality.
It’s really hard to evaluate the level of “talent” on a team. Player performance can swing wildly based on coaching. At one point this year the Patriots OL was literally full of journeymen and 2nd and 3rd stringers — and they performed better than high drafted Hernandez, Zeitler, Solder etc. There are million other examples of this ... look at how Amari Cooper immediately came back from the dead when he played for a different staff, or Tannehill ... or even Flowers.
I’m optimistic that Judge and his staff will be able to better utilize the “talent” we already have on the roster. I think if you put guys like Engram, Carter, Peppers, Baker in positions to succeed (like how all good coaches do) I think we’ll see that the perceived talent gap with the good teams is not as big as it seems.
Mcadoo was close, the only issue there was his pedigree was questionable both as a Mccarthy protege and mediocre OC prior to getting the bump up to HC. The leadership also fell apart in turmoil. That's a decision where comfort and continuity unfortunately trumped the actual talent.
As for the rest it was music to my ears to hear mara say they aren't going to go crazy in FA even with all the cap room. That's the right call. Bring in some guys who have experience in the new systems to fill gaps on the roster and focus on the draft. That's 1 area where DG has shined so I have confidence that could be the case again with another couple high picks.
Everything he said about his philosophy was everything I personally believe a head coach should be. Whether that translates to the field by someone who has never been a head coach remains to be seen.
But everything that’s transpired since they hired him has me bought in. And I was a huge Rhule guy.
I also think reading between the lines with every interview Gettleman has had since the season ended, he’s been significantly neutered with personnel decisions. I don’t think they wanted to fire him because of how it looks firing a GM 2 years in but while the appearance will be that he continues to have final say, I don’t think he does.
I think we are headed in the right direction.
Regarding Judge, Mara said "we need to be more patient than we have in the past because he is a brand new head coach and he is 38 years of age". WTF!!! The position of NY Giant head coach should not be an apprenticeship. We need to show marked W-L improvement in 2020 and either make the playoffs or have a chance to make the playoffs in week 17 of the 2021 season.
Regarding analytics, we of course heard the DG "4 computer guys" quote. When Mara was asked specifically (on Maggie and Moose) what improvements/progress they've made in the area of analytics, Mara couldn't answer the question. In the words of the great George Constanza, "he was be-boppin' and scattin" all over the question. "We've brought in some new folks" was the closest Mara came to answering.
Finally, Kevin Abrams...
I agree with Terps who previously noted that he hopes Judge can take more of the personnel responsibility. Hopefully if Judge is successful as the HC, he will have the power over the final 53 and Abrams (if indeed he is the next GM) is rendered the Finance and Operations guy.
I think a defensive scheme tailored to the talent that is already in place will make a monumental difference. hence why the Giants went with a guy like Patrick Graham
Judge made a point on numerous occasions to emphasize using players in the right positions
with Garrett in place to balance out the HC experience, I'm truly elated and excited.
Especially after being a Mets fan this week, Garrett signing was the best part of my week.
Hard to compare our two situations. This year, they got Jimmy G. back from injury, which was a big contributor to their 4-12 season last year. They also traded a second round pick for Dee Ford and then drafted Nick Bosa with the second overall pick. Nick Bosa was one of the most disruptive pass rushers in the league, and that was even more accentuated when Dee Ford was healthy. They were almost impossible to block when Bosa and Ford were on the field together. It is hard to see our pass rush taking that kind of leap next year.
Now, we do have Daniel Jones, and if he takes a second year leap, it could be like getting Jimmy G. back. But it's hard to see us getting a line like SF has any time soon.
Not meant to be a Debbie Downer, but we need massive leaps from all of our young guys to be really competitive next year. We also need LBs, because we have none that we can count on.
Makes me wonder if the owners are uncertain and not confident as well. I hope they can seriously turn this around, but the hole is very large and I think it is going to take years to dig out of the incompetence and bad decisions of the past. The best thing this club can do now is hold player evaluations and find out who can really play football and establish a winning culture.
Regarding Judge, Mara said "we need to be more patient than we have in the past because he is a brand new head coach and he is 38 years of age". WTF!!! The position of NY Giant head coach should not be an apprenticeship. We need to show marked W-L improvement in 2020 and either make the playoffs or have a chance to make the playoffs in week 17 of the 2021 season.
Regarding analytics, we of course heard the DG "4 computer guys" quote. When Mara was asked specifically (on Maggie and Moose) what improvements/progress they've made in the area of analytics, Mara couldn't answer the question. In the words of the great George Constanza, "he was be-boppin' and scattin" all over the question. "We've brought in some new folks" was the closest Mara came to answering.
Finally, Kevin Abrams...
I agree with Terps who previously noted that he hopes Judge can take more of the personnel responsibility. Hopefully if Judge is successful as the HC, he will have the power over the final 53 and Abrams (if indeed he is the next GM) is rendered the Finance and Operations guy.
To your point, Kevin Stefanski - when hired by the Browns - noted that analytics are important as "information is power". That is a direct quote. You don't have to live and die by analytics, but they unequivocally need to be incorporated into coaching the team. And for Gettleman to basically ignore them - and even worse, mock reporters who ask about them - is awful.
This team will not improve to where we need it to be until we do everything in our power to change it. Successful teams like the Chiefs, Patriots, and Eagles, use analytics religiously. They have fully staffed analytics departments. Doug Pederson speaks with his analytics people during games. Sure, the talent has to be there, as do the football minds on the coaching staff. But the Giants cannot ignore analytics and expect to get to the mountaintop. It just is not that kind of league anymore.
The fact that Gettleman said we have 4 computer guys, and Mara basically doesn't know what we have, shows you that analytics have not fought their way through through the Giants' cobwebs.
I hated Shurmur as a coach - he was terrible in managing games. But at least he showed that he was using some form of analytics to run the team, particularly when deciding whether to go for 2 after TDs.
Everything he said about his philosophy was everything I personally believe a head coach should be. Whether that translates to the field by someone who has never been a head coach remains to be seen.
But everything that’s transpired since they hired him has me bought in. And I was a huge Rhule guy.
I also think reading between the lines with every interview Gettleman has had since the season ended, he’s been significantly neutered with personnel decisions. I don’t think they wanted to fire him because of how it looks firing a GM 2 years in but while the appearance will be that he continues to have final say, I don’t think he does.
I think we are headed in the right direction.
+1
People will say "it can always get worse" but it really can't. I wouldn't not feel much differently with an 0-16 season than I have felt about any of the past couple of years.
Hiring Judge was bold. So Mara gets some props for getting out of his comfort zone. I don't put a lot of stock in the press conference and how Judge sounded. This addiction and comfort around here to style bewilders me. At the end of the day, Judge needs to figure out how to manage and win games. And none of us have any idea if he's got the right stuff...
I actually liked the hiring of Garrett. I don't think he's anything special as a play caller, but he's going to be an excellent sounding board for this young coach. The experience that he brings is a huge asset to Judge.
I am not bullish on where this LW situation takes us...That is going to be very interesting for setting the table.
People will say "it can always get worse" but it really can't. I wouldn't not feel much differently with an 0-16 season than I have felt about any of the past couple of years.
Actually, you might. At 0-16, we’d get the #1 pick of the draft..:)
Isn’t a lot of it trying to win again with Eli? I feel that was a major part of the decision making in the past 6 years. McAdoo & Shurmur we’re hired with the intention to resurrect Eli’s career.
As much as people harp on the way the Giants do business, I’d be curious to see a study on how all these other teams who win are run.
The good teams have 2 things:
1. Strong coaching
2. Superb QB play
I don’t know. Sometimes I think it’s overstated how outdated the Giants are. They are a family business and are run as such, just Luke Dallas & Pittsburgh are. If you can get strong coaching & solid QB play, it goes a long way in winning.
I listen to a ton of Mike Lombardi who has been pounding down the flawed way the Giants are run, but he was on WIP sports radio in Philly 2 weeks ago talking about how the Eagles handled the OC/WR coach firings - Pederson was left in the dark and the decision was made above him. As I’m hearing him describe this, I’m thinking this is the same shit that goes on (or has) with the Giants. Yet, the Eagles are supposedly miles ahead of the Giants with regards to how they operate?
The bottom line is-
Find a good coach. Get solid QB play. Pressure the other QB. We haven’t done any of that well in the last 6 years.
Will the Giants consider trading Barkley instead of paying him? Doubtful.
Will the Giants consider searching for another quarterback if Jones doesn't take the step forward? We'll see.
I could easily see the same flawed approach with Eli being applied to the new "faces of the franchise".
Will the Giants consider trading Barkley instead of paying him? Doubtful.
Will the Giants consider searching for another quarterback if Jones doesn't take the step forward? We'll see.
I could easily see the same flawed approach with Eli being applied to the new "faces of the franchise".
That isn’t what Judge said in his presser. He specifically said he does not care where you were drafted or if you’re an UDFA, he will play the best players. He didn’t even compliment Jones in his presser.
I do think it is an interesting thing to watch, because Belichick doesn’t care about anything other than playing the best players. That’s how Judge learned and what he said he’s bringing here.
If they're getting second contracts it's because they've earned it through their play, also a good thing.
The good teams are paying guys that much money, too. And it didn't hamstring them.
At least Eli earned some of the leeway he got (though it went on for too long). Jones and Barkley haven't earned anything yet, but with the way the franchise operates you can't help but wonder if they truly are going to be made to earn a long term commitment before they actually get it.
Help me Joe Judge. You're my only hope.
-Jets with Darnold
-Titans with Mariota
-Giants with Jones
Jones hasn’t been a trainwreck, there is a lot to like. The Cardinals are the only team that changed direction that I can think of off a new hire.
I think these are the two biggest questions surrounding the roster.
The Defense is really open to question and we don’t know if it was a personnel problem or DC problem. No matter where the blame falls, it will take a lot to happen for the D to be playoff caliber.
The D needs a game changing player. That player isn’t found in free agency.
Seriously the Offense has talent and weapons just need a C and a tackles.
Defense is a bigger issues...some pieces in the secondary and up front but out LBs are still a large liability. We also have to get someone that OC's fear off the edge.
in this way it's similar to the shurmur hire when they were rebuffed by patricia or mcdaniels, except this time instead of being rebuffed, it was because mara was slower to get thee search started than other teams like the redskins and panthers.
how many patriots coaches have gone on to success elsewhere? very few. also, judge is younger than eli manning. it's entirely possible he's too green.
when the giants hired shurmur i thought there was no way he could be worse than mcadoo. i was certainly wrong there.
basically nothing mara does gives me any confidence at this point. his instincts over the past 7 years have been pathetically bad/wrong.
If they're getting second contracts it's because they've earned it through their play, also a good thing.
The good teams are paying guys that much money, too. And it didn't hamstring them.
I don't agree when it comes to Barkely. It's normally not wise to give an RB a huge 2nd contract based on past performance. After 4- 5 years of heavy usage, will they still be playing at an elite level and how much longer can they be effective?
Loved the Jason garret hire.
Joe Judge can now have some helpful vets to lean on
We have cap space
We have virtually no bad contracts that we are stuck on
A young QB that looks good so far
Other talented young players
Competent draft for the last two years
No more "leaks"
No more whining players
All this SHOULD lead to better results.
If they're getting second contracts it's because they've earned it through their play, also a good thing.
Yes, that would be a good thing. Although the much better "thing: is to think about the overall roster makeup and what changes have to be made to accommodate higher cap resources allocated to these individuals.
QB gives a far more leeway because as long as you see what you need to see in terms of early development, its much easier to fork over money to pay DJ for his second contract. However, do you want to go to the mattresses with Barkley and how his 6-10 years will be versus the first 5?
...the game is on the field.
If we see progress next season, everyone will feel better.
Until then, what's there to feel good about a laughing stock franchise sitting in the bottom of the NFL barrel?
Fresh take.
Holy fucking shit you’re crazy. Get off the fucking ridiculous draft value argument already. If Barkley was the 15th overall pick you’d fucking love him. Fucking weird. Sorry, it’s weird.
Barkley is absolutely and unequivocally the least of our problems. He’s a terrific player. And if we had Bradley Chubb we’d have a promising young passrusher who has yet to play at a super elite level with a ravaged knee. I’m just certain the giants would be soooooooo much better off right now with Chubb instead of Barkley.
These same players will be a year older and more battle tested. There will also be more players brought in without many good players departing, if any at all. And an entirely new staff. That’s a lot to miss.