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The questionable cost/benefit of paying a running back big $

Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 1:19 pm
I know this is ground that has been previously covered on this board, but the 2019-2020 season provides additional evidence that it is unwise to invest a big portion of your cap on a particular running back, including the fact that:

1. The only top 10 paid running backs on the roster of a playoff team are Duke Johnson (marginal impact) and J McKinnon (has never played a down for SF). and

2. The lead Super Bowl backs — Raheem Mostert and Damien Williams) — are both undrafted. And their primary backups will be another undrafted player (M Breida) and a 6th round rookie (D Thompson).

Running back continues to be the far and away most injury prone position in the NFL (at least according to football outsiders). And over and over again, we see examples of the highly paid star RB going down, and the journeyman flourishing — see e.g. CJ Anderson tearing it up when Gurley got dinged last year, and Mosert running for 220 and 4 TDs when Coleman got hurt, etc.

Saquon is a spectacular running back, but it already puts us in a huge competitive disadvantage to pay him at his #2 draft spot when KC, GB, Seattle, SF etc are paying their RBs a fraction of that. It’s going to be a a big moment of truth for the Giants when it comes time to pay him like Zeke and Gurley ....
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RE: Star WR? No. Talented receiver as a RB? Yes.  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 4:13 pm : link
In comment 14788499 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
91 receptions in 2018.

52 last season despite missing however many games.

He's a versatile weapon.


So is Aaron Jones, his 20 TDs, and his $900,000 cap hit.
Even Gettleman  
solfish : 1/21/2020 4:18 pm : link
knew that investing #2 overall on a RB for a bad team was not something "computer guys" would consider optimal. However, Barkley was considered the best (or at least most hyped) RB prospect since basically ever, certainly the since Reggie Bush. Utterly dominant in college, one of the best combines of all time, no character concerns and a "modern" back in that he did most of his damage out of shotgun and excelled as pass catcher.
This year he was gimpy for a good chunk of the year and trying to run through nonexistent holes between the tackles.
When we talk about positional value, we need to understand that we are talking about a fairly small group of individual players. A lot of people, myself included wanted Rosen with that #2. Positional value doesn't matter if the player gets outcompeted by a mediocre journeyman.
Investing heavily in a RB is a bad idea in general. Investing heavily in a RB when your oline and pass defense suck is a particularly bad idea. Investing heavily in Saquon Barkley is a good idea, if you have a oline that allows him to do Saquon Barkley things 5 yards past the LOS instead of 2 yards behind it he is fully capable (if healthy) of putting up 2500 total yards and being an MVP candidate.

flawed argument for me...  
Doug in MA : 1/21/2020 4:19 pm : link
...why not look at the overall cap money spent on the RB position? This would make more sense to me as not all running backs are the same and some are limited in what they can do. Some are playoff teams some are not. Bottom line...who gives a shit. Teams are build differently and I don't know why it's hard for people to see building a running game around Barkley who can also catch 100 balls is a foundation issue.

Nothing in the draft is guaranteed...see Erik Flowers or Marcus Marriota. Draft a lineman over Saquon? Draft a qb over Saquon?

# of Backs and 2020 CAP DOLLARS

1 Los Angeles Rams.........3........$19,347,080
2 New York Jets................5........$17,995,889
3 San Francisco 49ers......3........$16,658,333
4 Arizona Cardinals...........4........$14,929,339
5 New England Patriots.....5........$13,992,496
6 Dallas Cowboys..............3........$11,651,945
7 Jacksonville Jaguars......5.........$11,065,346
8 Atlanta Falcons...............4........$10,978,109
9 New York Giants.............3.........$9,347,571
10 Carolina Panthers...........4.........$9,148,225
11 Cincinnati Bengals..........4.........$7,073,150
12 Baltimore Ravens............2.........$6,103,747
RE: At this point I'm more intrigued as to how Patrick Mahomes...  
jcn56 : 1/21/2020 4:21 pm : link
In comment 14788435 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
threw 1/2 the amount of TD's compared to last year (50) and 1000 less yards.


Yardage makes sense if you factor in his injury. The TD count drop might also have something to do with the SoS, which was apparently much higher than last year. KC's points for dropped pretty significantly from 2018's 565 (1st overall in the NFL in points-for compared to 5th overall for 2019). His injury also impacted his ability to run longer than the time he missed.
Remember David Johnson?  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 4:24 pm : link
Super versatile, legit 1,000/1,000 rushing/receiving threat. Signed to
A huge contract. One year into the deal he’s toast. Will he even be in the league in 2021? Risk happens quick with RBs.
RE: flawed argument for me...  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 4:28 pm : link
In comment 14788526 Doug in MA said:
Quote:
...why not look at the overall cap money spent on the RB position? This would make more sense to me as not all running backs are the same and some are limited in what they can do. Some are playoff teams some are not. Bottom line...who gives a shit. Teams are build differently and I don't know why it's hard for people to see building a running game around Barkley who can also catch 100 balls is a foundation issue.

Nothing in the draft is guaranteed...see Erik Flowers or Marcus Marriota. Draft a lineman over Saquon? Draft a qb over Saquon?

# of Backs and 2020 CAP DOLLARS

1 Los Angeles Rams.........3........$19,347,080
2 New York Jets................5........$17,995,889
3 San Francisco 49ers......3........$16,658,333
4 Arizona Cardinals...........4........$14,929,339
5 New England Patriots.....5........$13,992,496
6 Dallas Cowboys..............3........$11,651,945
7 Jacksonville Jaguars......5.........$11,065,346
8 Atlanta Falcons...............4........$10,978,109
9 New York Giants.............3.........$9,347,571
10 Carolina Panthers...........4.........$9,148,225
11 Cincinnati Bengals..........4.........$7,073,150
12 Baltimore Ravens............2.........$6,103,747


This list is littered with bad RB deals that should serve as cautionary tales. The 49ers made McKinnon the 5th highest paid RB in the league. Never played a down. The Rams are stuck with Gurley who averaged 3.8 yards per carry this year .. same nightmare story with David Johnson ... and Devonta Freeman etc etc.

Let’s be smart with our money and not dump it all on a RB.
RE: At this point I'm more intrigued as to how Patrick Mahomes...  
bradshaw44 : 1/21/2020 4:30 pm : link
In comment 14788435 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
threw 1/2 the amount of TD's compared to last year (50) and 1000 less yards.


Mahomes dislocated his knee and missed some time. That's part of it.
RE: I don't see any difference in paying a running back of superior skill  
chuckydee9 : 1/21/2020 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14788271 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
level to paying a WR of superior skill level.

I mean, at the time, nobody was complaining about paying Beckham 90 million, and Saquon won't even get 2/3 of that. Is Beckham's impact on winning or longevity any more relevant than Saquon's?


Thats a dream.. If Saquon produces what he averaged for the first 2 years then he will get a 90M deal.. Zeke just got a 90M deal.. you think Barkley and his agent are going to be like.. "Don't worry SB is better than Zeke but since BBI wants to pay 60M, we will have to live with that"
RE: RE: At this point I'm more intrigued as to how Patrick Mahomes...  
chuckydee9 : 1/21/2020 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14788540 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788435 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


threw 1/2 the amount of TD's compared to last year (50) and 1000 less yards.



Mahomes dislocated his knee and missed some time. That's part of it.


His best WR got injured.. His best RB had to be cut.. he was playing with scrubs this year compared to last.. and he missed time plus was injured.. anyhow who cares.. look at him now.. I'll take 25 TD if you are going to dominate the teams in the playoffs..
RE: The Saints also managed to win a Superbowl 4 years after drafting  
bw in dc : 1/21/2020 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14788510 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Bush 2nd overall. So that's good news.


And what a dividend Bush paid over those four years:

484 yards rush per year; at < 4yds per carry
483 yards receiving per year; at < 8yds per catch
65 catches per year
Total rushing TDs over 4 years: 17; 4+ per year
Total receiving TDs over 4 years: 11, 3+ per year

In other words, not the best example of taking a RB high making sense...
....the other flaw in this post  
Doug in MA : 1/21/2020 4:35 pm : link
cap hit by rank for playoff teams.

7. J. McKinnon...8.5 million
10. M. Ingram....5.3 million
11. D. Lewis.......5.1 million
12. T. Coleman..4.9 million
13. J. White......4.9 million
15, D. Johnson..4.1 million
17. R. Burkhead..3.9 million
18. R. Mostert....3.2 million

49ers with three players in the top 20. Also consider the Titans have Dion Lewis along with the rookie contract of Alexander. The Patriots have S. Michel as a first rounder along with the 13th and 17th paid running back.
RE: RE: At this point I'm more intrigued as to how Patrick Mahomes...  
One Man Thrill Ride : 1/21/2020 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14788528 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788435 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


threw 1/2 the amount of TD's compared to last year (50) and 1000 less yards.



Yardage makes sense if you factor in his injury. The TD count drop might also have something to do with the SoS, which was apparently much higher than last year. KC's points for dropped pretty significantly from 2018's 565 (1st overall in the NFL in points-for compared to 5th overall for 2019). His injury also impacted his ability to run longer than the time he missed.


Mahomes superficial fantasy stats might imply he regressed this season, but it’s a false conclusion.

Yes, he missed two and a half games, which hurt his end-season bottom line. His TD% dropped from over 8% last year (unsustainable) to 5.4% this year. TDs are somewhat random year to year, so the expected TD regression was the argument against over-drafting him in fantasy. His performance in 2018 amounted to an historically prolific season.

On a per-play basis, Patrick Mahomes was once again atop the league in production and efficiency. 8.3 yards per attempt was 4th in the league (he was 2nd in 2018 at 8.8 ypa) and his QBR was a 78.0 — behind only Lamar Jackson. Mahomes was tied for first in QBR in 2018 at 80.4.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

Why the fewer TD passes? Well touchdowns are a volatile stat year-to-year, and factors such as game script, play-calling, and SoS are significant variables. It’s foolhardy to judge a player on his raw TD output given the volatility of these factors across a limited sample.

One obvious change from 2018 to 2019: the Chiefs defense improved dramatically. Ppg fell from 26.3 to 19.3. Just as their awful defense buoyed Mahomes cumulative passing stats last year (more shootouts / higher-scoring games) their defense this year generally suppressed the necessity to score & score quickly.

RE: ....the other flaw in this post  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 4:52 pm : link
In comment 14788549 Doug in MA said:
Quote:
cap hit by rank for playoff teams.

7. J. McKinnon...8.5 million
10. M. Ingram....5.3 million
11. D. Lewis.......5.1 million
12. T. Coleman..4.9 million
13. J. White......4.9 million
15, D. Johnson..4.1 million
17. R. Burkhead..3.9 million
18. R. Mostert....3.2 million

49ers with three players in the top 20. Also consider the Titans have Dion Lewis along with the rookie contract of Alexander. The Patriots have S. Michel as a first rounder along with the 13th and 17th paid running back.


You’re proving my point. This $3 million to $5 million range is reasonable. Saquon will cost $15 million in 2021. Roughly the cost of three Mark Ingrams. Good teams spread risk.
RE: Saquon is not just a star RB  
Jimmy Googs : 1/21/2020 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14788454 gidiefor said:
Quote:
he is also a star WR. You are getting two star positions for the price of one --


Let him throw a few option passes and this is a no-brainer as he will be a star at QB as well.

3 stars for one.

And the hits just keep on comin'...
RE: RE: ....the other flaw in this post  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 4:56 pm : link
In comment 14788564 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 14788549 Doug in MA said:


Quote:


cap hit by rank for playoff teams.

7. J. McKinnon...8.5 million
10. M. Ingram....5.3 million
11. D. Lewis.......5.1 million
12. T. Coleman..4.9 million
13. J. White......4.9 million
15, D. Johnson..4.1 million
17. R. Burkhead..3.9 million
18. R. Mostert....3.2 million

49ers with three players in the top 20. Also consider the Titans have Dion Lewis along with the rookie contract of Alexander. The Patriots have S. Michel as a first rounder along with the 13th and 17th paid running back.



You’re proving my point. This $3 million to $5 million range is reasonable. Saquon will cost $15 million in 2021. Roughly the cost of three Mark Ingrams. Good teams spread risk.


It’s 2021. For your $15 million, do you want Saquon or the 2021 equivalent of Mark Ingram, Damien Williams, and ZaDarius Smith? Spread the risk, fill the gaps, please don’t give him $100 million.
Do you pay  
section125 : 1/21/2020 4:58 pm : link
Julio Jones, Andre Hopkins, other big time WRs, etc big $$$$.

Then you pay Barkley if he starts to crank out big numbers as he should be doing.
RE: Saquon is not just a star RB  
One Man Thrill Ride : 1/21/2020 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14788454 gidiefor said:
Quote:
he is also a star WR. You are getting two star positions for the price of one --


He is both a generational RB and also a generational WR.

TWO (2) generationals for the price of one.

10 clones of Saquon Barkley working together, led by their alpha, would be the best offense in the history of football.

is Saquon Barkley the best ~black~ running back in the game today ?
RE: Do you pay  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 5:09 pm : link
In comment 14788577 section125 said:
Quote:
Julio Jones, Andre Hopkins, other big time WRs, etc big $$$$.

Then you pay Barkley if he starts to crank out big numbers as he should be doing.


It’s almost academic to argue otherwise because we all know the Giants are gonna give him his $15 million per year. Hopefully he beats the odds and plays up to it!
RE: Not much will change the fact  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2020 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14788448 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
That the most efficient way to score points is by passing the football. All the numbers prove that.

You can piece together an effective running game with a scheme and RBC. You can’t piece together a passing game (see Vikings). The best chance at winning a title is having a good passing game that gets you the lead and a good defense to allow you to run the clock.


A couple of teams have shown that you can piece together a passing game. Look at the Ravens and Tenn this year. Look at SF. They are all getting adequate play out of no name WR's. It has basically been a WR by committee for several teams this season. Include the Eagles and Pats in that group too.
And..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/21/2020 5:24 pm : link
the Vikings go through the majority of the year without Thielen and made the playoffs.
RE: RE: Not much will change the fact  
ajr2456 : 1/21/2020 6:06 pm : link
In comment 14788611 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14788448 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


That the most efficient way to score points is by passing the football. All the numbers prove that.

You can piece together an effective running game with a scheme and RBC. You can’t piece together a passing game (see Vikings). The best chance at winning a title is having a good passing game that gets you the lead and a good defense to allow you to run the clock.



A couple of teams have shown that you can piece together a passing game. Look at the Ravens and Tenn this year. Look at SF. They are all getting adequate play out of no name WR's. It has basically been a WR by committee for several teams this season. Include the Eagles and Pats in that group too.


And what happened when it mattered for Ravens, Tenn, Philly, Pats and Vikings when they got behind two scores?
Sure Mahomes regular season TDS were down  
ajr2456 : 1/21/2020 6:07 pm : link
He then went and threw for 1/5th of his total in one quarter to bring his team back from down multiple scores.
RE: RE: RE: RE: The league is evolving, again....  
NINEster : 1/21/2020 6:21 pm : link
In comment 14788356 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788347 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14788338 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14788258 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


The guys that have been airing it out for the last decade plus are all going to be gone in under five years.

Who is going to carry that passing league mantle moving forward? Mahomes and who else?

They ain't making them like that anymore and we might be seeing a resurgence coming in the run game. That could mean running QB's, too, but we could see an emphasis on ground attack either way.

If that happens, to me, it's valuable to have a guy that can rush for 1000 plus yards and 10 plus TD's on the ground, as well as catch nearly 100 passes.



Because there won’t be a QB as good as Mahomes it’s going to be a running league again? Probably not.

Lawrence, Fields next year. Sam Howell and Jayden Daniels in 2022. The pipeline of QBs is loaded. It’s a passing league for the forseable futur.




Yeah, just like 2018 was the greatest class since 2004. I'll believe it when I see it.

The spread offense has changed the NFL, especially the QB position. Now the NFL is adjusting.



Are we sure it’s adjusting? We just saw the Ravens and Titans lose because they fell behind and struggled to pass in their games. Well see what happens if San Fran falls behind by two scores next a Sunday.


SF is already 2-0 in such scenario this season.
RE: RE: Saquon is not just a star RB  
NINEster : 1/21/2020 6:24 pm : link
In comment 14788579 One Man Thrill Ride said:
Quote:
In comment 14788454 gidiefor said:


Quote:


he is also a star WR. You are getting two star positions for the price of one --



He is both a generational RB and also a generational WR.

TWO (2) generationals for the price of one.

10 clones of Saquon Barkley working together, led by their alpha, would be the best offense in the history of football.

is Saquon Barkley the best ~black~ running back in the game today ?


While Shanahan hasn't typically drafted RB very high, you have to wonder if he hadn't gotten Jimmy G in trade how they would have finished 2017 season -- very likely a top 3 pick.

It wouldn't have been out of the realm of possibility that he would have drafted him, and if he really is the greatest RB prospect, it could have been even scarier to watch the Niner running game.
RE: RE: RE: At this point I'm more intrigued as to how Patrick Mahomes...  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 7:26 pm : link
In comment 14788557 One Man Thrill Ride said:
Quote:
In comment 14788528 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14788435 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


threw 1/2 the amount of TD's compared to last year (50) and 1000 less yards.



Yardage makes sense if you factor in his injury. The TD count drop might also have something to do with the SoS, which was apparently much higher than last year. KC's points for dropped pretty significantly from 2018's 565 (1st overall in the NFL in points-for compared to 5th overall for 2019). His injury also impacted his ability to run longer than the time he missed.



Mahomes superficial fantasy stats might imply he regressed this season, but it’s a false conclusion.

Yes, he missed two and a half games, which hurt his end-season bottom line. His TD% dropped from over 8% last year (unsustainable) to 5.4% this year. TDs are somewhat random year to year, so the expected TD regression was the argument against over-drafting him in fantasy. His performance in 2018 amounted to an historically prolific season.

On a per-play basis, Patrick Mahomes was once again atop the league in production and efficiency. 8.3 yards per attempt was 4th in the league (he was 2nd in 2018 at 8.8 ypa) and his QBR was a 78.0 — behind only Lamar Jackson. Mahomes was tied for first in QBR in 2018 at 80.4.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2019/passing.htm

Why the fewer TD passes? Well touchdowns are a volatile stat year-to-year, and factors such as game script, play-calling, and SoS are significant variables. It’s foolhardy to judge a player on his raw TD output given the volatility of these factors across a limited sample.

One obvious change from 2018 to 2019: the Chiefs defense improved dramatically. Ppg fell from 26.3 to 19.3. Just as their awful defense buoyed Mahomes cumulative passing stats last year (more shootouts / higher-scoring games) their defense this year generally suppressed the necessity to score & score quickly.


Regressed? Who said anything about regressed? I hope our guy's regression has him playing in the Superbowl.

I just saw it as something that jumped out at me, and began to wonder why...

As I pointed out in my next post, passing TD's are down (big time) around the league. Aaron Rodgers only threw 25, and still they were 13-3 despite the fact that he was considered to be the biggest, most important part of their offense.

The bigger thing I took away was passing TD's being down league wide, not regression.
Haven’t read the whole thread  
djm : 1/21/2020 7:37 pm : link
But I presume no one did the work to prove or disprove that you could swap out RB for any other position and come away with similar results? How many top 5 highly paid LTs played last Sunday? How many top 10 WRs? How many top 10 DL?

Paying any player is a risk. Paying a rb might be a little riskier but it also depends on the player. Are we playing a bulldozer type RB or a guy that knows how to protect himself?

This is, how do you say, confirmation bias at its best. Britt also nailed it when he said early in this thread that the nfl is cycling back to a league more dominant at the RB position. People went out of their way to say the league didn’t need bell cow backs anymore. Nope. There was just a drought at the position. Not anymore. And guess what, those stat RBs? They are all gonna get paid and some of them will earn every penny. Look ahead, based on today, don’t look at the nfl from 1-2-3 years ago and proclaim that the bell cow is dead. Anything but.
And I haven't played fantasy football in nearly ten years....  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 7:38 pm : link
so I'm not going to get in a metrics argument with anybody.

I look at the bottom line and games I watch with my eyes.

I'll admit that all of the metrics about yards traveled in the air, per attempt, etc... don't mean much to me. If that makes me less educated than your average fantasy player/data analyst, so be it.
RE: RE: I meant you in the general sense, not literal....  
djm : 1/21/2020 7:41 pm : link
In comment 14788451 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 14788343 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


A lot of people have been hyper-focused on the RB position, mainly because they (not saying you) have never gotten over using the #2 overall on one.

But the truth is, you could do the same exercise for WR. I have yet to see that argument made here in the past couple of years, and it was kind of expected for Odell even for those that questioned whether he should still be here. I didn't like the guy all that much but definitely felt like he should be resigned, even for that monster deal.

Superstar players get paid. Yeah, RB's can be done by committee, but not many RB's can do what Saquon does. Which is gamechanging play. Kind of like Odell. He may be nonexistent for a while, but he/they can take it to the house at any moment.

WR by committee could be done as easily as RB by committee.



See contra the Steelers who didn’t pay LeVeon. And are likely gonna skip a miserable rebuild and get right back in the mix.


Really. And what if the Steelers still had bell this season? They very well make the playoffs.
Ok I did read the whole thread  
djm : 1/21/2020 7:44 pm : link
Yea, no. I can easily swap out rb with any other position and make up a new narrative.

Paying anyone is a risk. If the guy gets hurt, you’re fuct.
Does anyone feel that it’s the salary cap  
giantsFC : 1/21/2020 8:25 pm : link
That makes paying RB’s what they rightfully deserve the problem versus actually paying them.

70-100 players on a team and comparing to NBA, it’s half the average salary per player.

Barley deserves what he reaps as a player. And he isn’t a basket case selfish ego maniac so I imagine that has to count
RE: Ok I did read the whole thread  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 8:58 pm : link
In comment 14788875 djm said:
Quote:
Yea, no. I can easily swap out rb with any other position and make up a new narrative.

Paying anyone is a risk. If the guy gets hurt, you’re fuct.

)
According to over-the-cap, here are the # of top 10 paid players several positions on playoff teams:
And
QB: 5
RB: zero (unless you include McKinnon who hasn’t played in 2 years)
WR: 3
LT: 7
S: 6

Sounds like you are in favor of paying Saquon $15 million plus. Take a look at the NFL stats leaders at RB. It’s a wasteland for guys over 26. There are numerous pro bowl types at other positions in their late 20s and early 30s, but it’s a young man’s game at RB.
RE: RE: Ok I did read the whole thread  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 9:01 pm : link
In comment 14788953 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 14788875 djm said:


Quote:


Yea, no. I can easily swap out rb with any other position and make up a new narrative.

Paying anyone is a risk. If the guy gets hurt, you’re fuct.


)
According to over-the-cap, here are the # of top 10 paid players several positions on playoff teams:
And
QB: 5
RB: zero (unless you include McKinnon who hasn’t played in 2 years)
WR: 3
LT: 7
S: 6

Sounds like you are in favor of paying Saquon $15 million plus. Take a look at the NFL stats leaders at RB. It’s a wasteland for guys over 26. There are numerous pro bowl types at other positions in their late 20s and early 30s, but it’s a young man’s game at RB.


I’ll try to fill in the other positions later, but want to bet a beer that no other position has ZERO top 10 paid players in the playoffs?
RE: The road is just as littered with high priced WR's as Rb's.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:02 pm : link
In comment 14788298 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Who are the highest paid Wide Receivers in the league? How many of them are playing in the Superbowl bext weekend? Honest question if that's what we're discussing.

1. Browns WR Odell Beckham Jr.: $18 million
2. Raiders WR Antonio Brown: $16.7 million
3. Buccaneers WR Mike Evans: $16.5 million
4. Texans WR DeAndre Hopkins: $16.2 million
5. Rams WR Brandin Cooks: $16.2 million
6. Vikings WR Adam Thielen: $16.2 million
7. Chiefs WR Sammy Watkins: $16 million
8. Browns WR Jarvis Landry: $15.1 million
9. Bengals WR A.J. Green: $15 million
10. Packers WR Davante Adams: $14.5 million

So 3/10 were in the playoffs. Similar to the RB's if I recall correctly.

We can do this exercise with a lot of positions. Maybe they're just as fungible as RB's? Maybe we should go the Go Terps method and cut everybody before their second contract except offensive and defensive linemen if that's all that matters? Why stop at RB's?


Bro... you heard of Tyreek Hill?
RE: RE: Ok I did read the whole thread  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14788953 Jim from Katonah said:
Quote:
In comment 14788875 djm said:


Quote:


Yea, no. I can easily swap out rb with any other position and make up a new narrative.

Paying anyone is a risk. If the guy gets hurt, you’re fuct.


)
According to over-the-cap, here are the # of top 10 paid players several positions on playoff teams:
And
QB: 5
RB: zero (unless you include McKinnon who hasn’t played in 2 years)
WR: 3
LT: 7
S: 6

Sounds like you are in favor of paying Saquon $15 million plus. Take a look at the NFL stats leaders at RB. It’s a wasteland for guys over 26. There are numerous pro bowl types at other positions in their late 20s and early 30s, but it’s a young man’s game at RB.


And what is $15 million compared to what those other guys are getting on average?
RE: As great as Aaron Rodgers is, he's only got one.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14788405 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
As great as Drew Brees is, he's only got one.

As great as Mahomes is, well... We'll see.

When you've got a complete team playing complimentary football, you don't need to be Rodgers, Brees, or Mahomes to win one.


Because Brady and Eli fucking won basically all of the other ones. Your arguments are have more holes than swiss cheese. Seriously horrible.
RE: RE: As great as Aaron Rodgers is, he's only got one.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:14 pm : link
In comment 14788959 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14788405 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


As great as Drew Brees is, he's only got one.

As great as Mahomes is, well... We'll see.

When you've got a complete team playing complimentary football, you don't need to be Rodgers, Brees, or Mahomes to win one.



Because Brady and Eli fucking won basically all of the other ones. Your arguments are have more holes than swiss cheese. Seriously horrible.


Eli Manning and Brady's team were playing complimentary football.

So were Wilson's with Lynch and the Legion of Boom.

Do you want to talk or do you want to insult my argument?
RE: RE: RE: Ok I did read the whole thread  
Jim from Katonah : 1/21/2020 9:24 pm : link
In comment 14788958 Britt in VA said:
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In comment 14788953 Jim from Katonah said:


Quote:


In comment 14788875 djm said:


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Yea, no. I can easily swap out rb with any other position and make up a new narrative.

Paying anyone is a risk. If the guy gets hurt, you’re fuct.


)
According to over-the-cap, here are the # of top 10 paid players several positions on playoff teams:
And
QB: 5
RB: zero (unless you include McKinnon who hasn’t played in 2 years)
WR: 3
LT: 7
S: 6

Sounds like you are in favor of paying Saquon $15 million plus. Take a look at the NFL stats leaders at RB. It’s a wasteland for guys over 26. There are numerous pro bowl types at other positions in their late 20s and early 30s, but it’s a young man’s game at RB.



And what is $15 million compared to what those other guys are getting on average?


You have outlasted me and have won the debate. Hoping Saquon follows an Emmitt Smith trajectory and I’m dead wrong.
RE: RE: RE: As great as Aaron Rodgers is, he's only got one.  
ajr2456 : 1/21/2020 9:28 pm : link
In comment 14788964 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14788959 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14788405 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


As great as Drew Brees is, he's only got one.

As great as Mahomes is, well... We'll see.

When you've got a complete team playing complimentary football, you don't need to be Rodgers, Brees, or Mahomes to win one.



Because Brady and Eli fucking won basically all of the other ones. Your arguments are have more holes than swiss cheese. Seriously horrible.



Eli Manning and Brady's team were playing complimentary football.

So were Wilson's with Lynch and the Legion of Boom.

Do you want to talk or do you want to insult my argument?


Not in 2011.
RE: RE: RE: RE: As great as Aaron Rodgers is, he's only got one.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:32 pm : link
In comment 14788974 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788964 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14788959 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14788405 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


As great as Drew Brees is, he's only got one.

As great as Mahomes is, well... We'll see.

When you've got a complete team playing complimentary football, you don't need to be Rodgers, Brees, or Mahomes to win one.



Because Brady and Eli fucking won basically all of the other ones. Your arguments are have more holes than swiss cheese. Seriously horrible.



Eli Manning and Brady's team were playing complimentary football.

So were Wilson's with Lynch and the Legion of Boom.

Do you want to talk or do you want to insult my argument?



Not in 2011.


In the regular season? Yes. In the playoffs, the run game, o-line, and defense recovered for one last gasp.

But that's common, isn't it? Great regular season, but you need everybody (run game, defense, etc...) to step up in the playoffs? Even this year? I'd say so.

And the 2011 NYG still had a core of guys with pride that stepped up one last time.
Let me know when  
djm : 1/21/2020 9:38 pm : link
Dallas regrets drafting zeke at 4 and then paying him like they are now.

Also, people are grouping Barkley in every the typical athlete at rb. Just like that line of thinking is unfair with the likes of Zeke Elliot it’s unfair here with Barkley. And you can apply that same logic with other insanely talented and athletic players at other positions.

It might be good to just wait and see how things shake out. The guy is a freak, Adrian Peterson type freak, the Vikings were wise to milk Peterson for all he was worth and the giants would be too.
RE: Let me know when  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14788984 djm said:
Quote:
Dallas regrets drafting zeke at 4 and then paying him like they are now.

Also, people are grouping Barkley in every the typical athlete at rb. Just like that line of thinking is unfair with the likes of Zeke Elliot it’s unfair here with Barkley. And you can apply that same logic with other insanely talented and athletic players at other positions.

It might be good to just wait and see how things shake out. The guy is a freak, Adrian Peterson type freak, the Vikings were wise to milk Peterson for all he was worth and the giants would be too.


A guy in this thread said he was Reggie Bush Part 2. Wake me up when Reggie Bush does this:

Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: As great as Aaron Rodgers is, he's only got one.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14788964 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14788959 MM_in_NYC said:


Quote:


In comment 14788405 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


As great as Drew Brees is, he's only got one.

As great as Mahomes is, well... We'll see.

When you've got a complete team playing complimentary football, you don't need to be Rodgers, Brees, or Mahomes to win one.



Because Brady and Eli fucking won basically all of the other ones. Your arguments are have more holes than swiss cheese. Seriously horrible.



Eli Manning and Brady's team were playing complimentary football.

So were Wilson's with Lynch and the Legion of Boom.

Do you want to talk or do you want to insult my argument?


I'm sorry to say but your arguments are so weak as to not deserve serious contemplation. And further you incorrectly cite statistics as you did by omitting Tyreek Hill in order to prop them up. He's at $18 million per and playing next week in the Super Bowl and would have been at the top of your list -- and would have completely upended your argument on WRs. You then actually said above you thought Mahomes was the only "new" QB who could put up substantial numbers in the new class of up and coming QBs -- although I'm sure you'll find some angle to dispute that characterization. As if Jackson, Wentz, Watson, Prescott, Allen in addition to Mahomes didn't exist, as if Murray and Jones didn't show tremendous promise, and as if Wilson and Stafford (who was on pace for 38 before getting injured this year) weren't still playing. As if Burrow and Lawrence were coming up in the next two drafts. Amongst others.

Complimentary football? To be clear, are you diminishing Eli's importance and play? If so, I'm sure this board would like to hear you expand on how you don't believe he was instrumental to our wins and how the team won in spite of him. I bet that will get you a lot of support.

No, ultimately your arguments seem to be solely manufactured to support a pro-Saquon opinion that at its core refuses to consider whether that was a bad choice and as such must seek to rationalize it by downplaying the importance of other options for team building. It's not one I find discussing further.
You look like you just gave them serious contemplation.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:50 pm : link
.
RE: You look like you just gave them serious contemplation.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14788999 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


maybe that's what you think serious contemplation is, i don't
You said a lot of words, and a whole bunch of nothing.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:54 pm : link
.
RE: You said a lot of words, and a whole bunch of nothing.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14789007 Britt in VA said:
[quote] . [/quote

lol
And I'm the last guy that would diminish Eli's play on this board.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:55 pm : link
That's posters like you's job, because you're too young to remember the good Eli years.
RE: And I'm the last guy that would diminish Eli's play on this board.  
MM_in_NYC : 1/21/2020 9:56 pm : link
In comment 14789010 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
That's posters like you's job, because you're too young to remember the good Eli years.


you just did diminish his play. maybe you're so old you can't remember what you posted 10 minutes ago
RE: RE: And I'm the last guy that would diminish Eli's play on this board.  
Britt in VA : 1/21/2020 9:57 pm : link
In comment 14789012 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
In comment 14789010 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


That's posters like you's job, because you're too young to remember the good Eli years.



you just did diminish his play. maybe you're so old you can't remember what you posted 10 minutes ago


Ha, okay. Playing complimentary football isn't an insult.
It would be nice..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/22/2020 8:13 am : link
if when fact checking, you had the right season:

Quote:
I'm sorry to say but your arguments are so weak as to not deserve serious contemplation. And further you incorrectly cite statistics as you did by omitting Tyreek Hill in order to prop them up. He's at $18 million per and playing next week in the Super Bowl and would have been at the top of your list -- and would have completely upended your argument on WRs.


Hill just signed a new contract and in 2020 - that's next year for those great at contract numbers and shitty at the year they are applied in.

This year his cap hit was 2.19M
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