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NFL testing 2 new rules in Pro Bowl - Kickoff & False Starts

Giants in 07 : 1/21/2020 2:48 pm
After a score:

1. Team A may elect to give Team B the ball at Team B's 25-yard line, beginning a new series of downs with a first-and-10.

2. Team A may elect to take the ball at its own 25-yard line for a fourth-and-15 play. If Team A is successful in making a first down, Team A will maintain possession and a new series of downs will continue as normal. If Team A is unsuccessful in making a first down, the result will be a turnover on downs and Team B will take possession at the dead-ball spot.


Before the snap:

It is not a false start if a flexed, eligible receiver in a two-point stance who flinches or picks up one foot, as long as his other foot remains partially on the ground and he resets for one second prior to the snap. A receiver who fits this exception is not considered to be “in motion” for the purposes of the Illegal Shift rules.

It is not a false start if all 11 offensive players have been set for at least one full second and any flexed, eligible receiver breaks his stance by picking up both feet.
https://operations.nfl.com/updates/the-rules/two-new-rules-to-be-tested-at-pro-bowl/ - ( New Window )
Did someone from the XFL rules committee get into  
figgy2989 : 1/21/2020 2:50 pm : link
Goddells ear?

Those after score scenarios (especially the second one) sound just awful.

Yup  
Fast Eddie : 1/21/2020 2:50 pm : link
Lets add a few more cockamamie rules to the endless rules book
I mean...  
figgy2989 : 1/21/2020 2:51 pm : link
Quote:
2. Team A may elect to take the ball at its own 25-yard line for a fourth-and-15 play. If Team A is successful in making a first down, Team A will maintain possession and a new series of downs will continue as normal. If Team A is unsuccessful in making a first down, the result will be a turnover on downs and Team B will take possession at the dead-ball spot.


Given how it is nearly impossible for onsides kicks these days, if a team is down by a score with under two minutes and no time outs, who wouldn't go for this?


RE: Did someone from the XFL rules committee get into  
Azul Grande : 1/21/2020 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14788360 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
Goddells ear?

Those after score scenarios (especially the second one) sound just awful.


Got some bad news for you - this has been an idea for a few years now and in my opinion something similar (4th and long) is dramatically more likely than not to replace the onside kick in the next few years.
False start...  
Chris in Philly : 1/21/2020 2:53 pm : link
is one of the most inconsistently called penalties in the game.
I have been a fan of #2 for years.  
Big Blue Blogger : 1/21/2020 2:55 pm : link
The details could be tweaked, but the point is to have a real football play rather than the weird, long-shot randomness of an on-side kick, with all its attendant dangers.
RE: I mean...  
Giants in 07 : 1/21/2020 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14788363 figgy2989 said:
Quote:


Quote:


2. Team A may elect to take the ball at its own 25-yard line for a fourth-and-15 play. If Team A is successful in making a first down, Team A will maintain possession and a new series of downs will continue as normal. If Team A is unsuccessful in making a first down, the result will be a turnover on downs and Team B will take possession at the dead-ball spot.



Given how it is nearly impossible for onsides kicks these days, if a team is down by a score with under two minutes and no time outs, who wouldn't go for this?



Right..this would take the place of an onside kick, which would be removed from the game
Imagine a team taking the ball again  
Rudy5757 : 1/21/2020 3:00 pm : link
on a 4th and 15 after they score on their opening drive...lol. I dont like the scoring rules, I think the kickoff is fine the way it is now. not many get returned anyway.

I do like the false start rule. it makes sense.
I'm a big fan of the revamped offsides rule as well - with one caveat  
jcn56 : 1/21/2020 3:03 pm : link
that there are no automatic first down penalties. Sounds hokey, but it doesn't seem fair that you could end up losing a game on a special teams play because of a ref who is trigger happy.
They are going to have to address  
Marty866b : 1/21/2020 3:18 pm : link
Teams with the lead milking the clock by committing penalties.
Yeah  
mdthedream : 1/21/2020 3:18 pm : link
more reason to not watch.
Not liking the 4th and 15 idea.  
WalterSobchak : 1/21/2020 3:19 pm : link
Why not make an exception and just let players get a running start when they do an onside kick ? It would take an element of surprise away , but 95% of onsides kicks are in obvious spots where a team needs to anyway. If they could get the success rate up to 20% or better I think thats about right
If that rule  
mdthedream : 1/21/2020 3:20 pm : link
ever became a rule I would not watch football. You get to take the ball 1st and 15.
Sorry  
mdthedream : 1/21/2020 3:21 pm : link
4th and 15.
No for #2  
JohnB : 1/21/2020 3:24 pm : link
Team B has every right to get the ball back after Team A scores.

What if Team B's D is really gassed? Don't they get the chance to get a breather? Aren't they, the D, allow to rest, even if it's only for a 3 and out? Must they march back onto the field and keep playing, without stopping?

A change of possession must occur.

4th and 15?  
Platos : 1/21/2020 3:28 pm : link
we'd never get the ball if they made this a regular season rule lol
RE: I'm a big fan of the revamped offsides rule as well - with one caveat  
JoeFootball : 1/21/2020 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14788397 jcn56 said:
Quote:
that there are no automatic first down penalties. Sounds hokey, but it doesn't seem fair that you could end up losing a game on a special teams play because of a ref who is trigger happy.


Imagine losing possession on a questionable defensive holding call,
RE: If that rule  
Jim in Tampa : 1/21/2020 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14788421 mdthedream said:
Quote:
ever became a rule I would not watch football. You get to take the ball 1st and 15.

Yes you would.

;>)

(I agree that the proposed rule change sucks though.)
How far can the WR's go to get the other team to flinch?  
TheEvilLurker : 1/21/2020 4:11 pm : link
That's what I think of when I see the offside rule.
I HATE both of those idiotic ideas.  
Red Dog : 1/21/2020 4:16 pm : link
They can't effectively and fairly enforce the rules they have now - why add more complexity?

The NFL is managed by absolute morons.
RE: RE: I mean...  
bradshaw44 : 1/21/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14788390 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788363 figgy2989 said:


Quote:




Quote:


2. Team A may elect to take the ball at its own 25-yard line for a fourth-and-15 play. If Team A is successful in making a first down, Team A will maintain possession and a new series of downs will continue as normal. If Team A is unsuccessful in making a first down, the result will be a turnover on downs and Team B will take possession at the dead-ball spot.



Given how it is nearly impossible for onsides kicks these days, if a team is down by a score with under two minutes and no time outs, who wouldn't go for this?





Right..this would take the place of an onside kick, which would be removed from the game


The question is, is an onside kick not allowed? So a team could actually line up for a kick off and kick the onside as a surprise and the other team wouldn't expect it because they didn't take the 4th and 15 chance.
I like both rules.  
darktimes : 1/21/2020 4:21 pm : link
Onside kicks are just stupid anyway, and people get hurt. At least the 4th and 15 is a football play and not just a bouncy ball odd play.

Plus it's riskier because of field position.

The false start thing is pretty good. I like the change.
So the 2nd one essentially replaces an onside kick  
moespree : 1/21/2020 4:23 pm : link
The data people will love that because I would venture to guess the data will suggest that is a better than 50/50 option and worth the risk at different times. Including in non-traditional onside kicks situations.
Okay, you score a TD and you are up by 2 points with 1 minute to go:  
Marty in Albany : 1/21/2020 4:40 pm : link
If I am understanding the new rules, you have a choice:

1. You can hand the ball over at the 25 and give the other team a minute to move it 45 yards down field and kick a winning field goal of 47 yards, or
2. You keep possession of the ball, but it is 4th and 15 on the opponent's 25.

I think the obvious choice is to take the ball on the 25, but not try that hard to score. The other team will jam up the goal line and end zone, so it should be a lot easier to run an intermediate play that fails to score, but moves the ball down to the other team's 5 or 10 yard line with at least a few extra seconds having run off the clock.

So instead of handing the ball over on the 25 with a minute left in the game, maybe you've given them the ball on their own 5-10 yd. line with say, 50 seconds left in the game. That makes it a bit tougher for them to get into field goal range.

Furthermore, even if your 4th and 15 play is an incomplete pass, what have you lost? The other team gets the ball on their 25 with almost a minute to go, the same as if you had elected option number 1.

Which would you do if you were up by only 2 points?
I agree with the Kickoff rule...  
x meadowlander : 1/21/2020 4:44 pm : link
...and would support a 240lb weight limit.
Beyond ridiculous  
Ira : 1/21/2020 4:46 pm : link
.
RE: Okay, you score a TD and you are up by 2 points with 1 minute to go:  
Mad Mike : 1/21/2020 4:49 pm : link
In comment 14788553 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:

2. You keep possession of the ball, but it is 4th and 15 on the opponent's 25.

You take the ball on your own 25. If it was the opponent's 25, teams with a decent fg kicker could score once and then literally just take 4th and 15 and kick fg after fg, never even giving the ball back.
The 4th and 15 rule  
Metnut : 1/21/2020 4:53 pm : link
is long overdue. The onside kick is no longer a competitive play. They improved the game by moving the extra point attempt back, and this will improve the game also.

I think a lot of posters on this thread aren't realizing how hard it is to convert a 4th and 15. I'd expect the conversion rate to be around 20%, but I'm just making that up and might be very wrong.
Even if (especially if) the current rules are no good  
Marty in Albany : 1/21/2020 4:55 pm : link
there is nothing wrong with trying to make the rules better. The new rules are only being tested. They have not been adopted.

There have been so many rules changes since Baltimore beat the Giants in 1958, that these proposed changes are quite minor in comparison.
Oops, my mistake about where the ball goes on option 2  
Marty in Albany : 1/21/2020 4:58 pm : link
I thought it was the opponent's 25, not the other team's 25. Sorry about that. Mea culpa.
RE: RE: Okay, you score a TD and you are up by 2 points with 1 minute to go:  
Amtoft : 1/21/2020 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14788562 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 14788553 Marty in Albany said:


Quote:



2. You keep possession of the ball, but it is 4th and 15 on the opponent's 25.



You take the ball on your own 25. If it was the opponent's 25, teams with a decent fg kicker could score once and then literally just take 4th and 15 and kick fg after fg, never even giving the ball back.


You guys are on the wrong side of the field with that 4th and 25.
RE: I HATE both of those idiotic ideas.  
81_Great_Dane : 1/21/2020 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14788520 Red Dog said:
Quote:
They can't effectively and fairly enforce the rules they have now - why add more complexity?

The NFL is managed by absolute morons.
I think the false start changes make things simpler, don't they? Or at least give less cause to call ticky-tack penalties.

The post-score things? I think that's where the game is headed because kickoffs have become too dangerous.
Really  
Gman11 : 1/21/2020 6:47 pm : link
they need to do something about false start penalties. A lineman leans half an inch and he's called for a penalty. A guy flicks a booger and it's 5 yards. Wouldn't have affected the play if they didn't call it. What they need to do is come up with a better rule like, maybe, a guy has to come out of his stance once he's set or he moves his feet or something more than just any tiny movement.
What pct of the time should a team succeed in keeping the ball?  
Reale01 : 1/21/2020 6:50 pm : link
I think it should be no more than 10%.

I think a 4th and 15 is much higher than that.
Horrendous  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/21/2020 7:00 pm : link
NFL needs new leadership
I know the conversion rate of a 4th and 15  
eclipz928 : 1/21/2020 7:12 pm : link
is higher than an onsides kick, but it's still a very low conversion rate. But the main thing people keep overlooking is the fact that if the conversion attempt fails, you're likely giving the ball back to the opponent on your own 25 yard line.

Basically, a failed conversion means handing the opponent a field goal attempt. I imagine that it would not be used except for in extreme circumstances, and only near the end of a game.
My preference, instead of #2  
JohnF : 1/22/2020 12:25 pm : link
Eliminate on sides kicks (KO's need to go at least 20 yards in the air)...BUT

Under 2 minutes to go, the clock stops after each play (pass OR run!) This allows teams to get the ball back if they can play defense, even if they are out of TO's.
Thinking about the first two rules with overtime...  
TheEvilLurker : 1/22/2020 12:34 pm : link
With that rule, a team can win by scoring twice without the other team touching the ball.

Fg, do the 4th down and make it, Td
Thinking about the first two rules with overtime...  
TheEvilLurker : 1/22/2020 12:34 pm : link
With that rule, a team can win by scoring twice without the other team touching the ball.

Fg, do the 4th down and make it, Td
RE: Thinking about the first two rules with overtime...  
Metnut : 1/22/2020 12:41 pm : link
In comment 14789508 TheEvilLurker said:
Quote:
With that rule, a team can win by scoring twice without the other team touching the ball.

Fg, do the 4th down and make it, Td


A team can already win now by scoring a TD on the opening drive in OT.

You really think a team would kick a FG and then attempt a 4th and 15 knowing that (in the very likely event) if they don't convert, the opponent gets the ball only 25 yards from a game winning TD?
RE: Thinking about the first two rules with overtime...  
Mad Mike : 1/22/2020 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14789509 TheEvilLurker said:
Quote:
With that rule, a team can win by scoring twice without the other team touching the ball.

Fg, do the 4th down and make it, Td

It's already easier than that under the current rules. Lining up to receive a kick qualifies as an opportunity to possess the ball, so you can just do a successful onsides kick to open OT, and all you need from that point is a FG. Or if you've received first and scored a FG, do a successful onside kick at that point, and the game ends. No need to score twice.

The risk of giving your opponent a great scoring opportunity makes any of these scenarios very unlikely.
The obvious strategy on 4th and 15  
Ron from Ninerland : 1/22/2020 10:29 pm : link
Will be to scramble around on the backfield for as long as possible and hopefully pick up an illegal contact penalty. Then throw a Hail Mary and endure controversy because the refs called, or did not call pass interference. The NFL would be wise to forget about this.
Do we..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/23/2020 8:46 am : link
have data to show people get hurt on onsides kicks??

I would guess the propensity to get hurt on a 4th and 15 play might be equal to that of an onsides kick.

I don't think this is about player safety
RE: Do we..  
Mad Mike : 1/23/2020 9:33 am : link
In comment 14790524 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
have data to show people get hurt on onsides kicks??

I would guess the propensity to get hurt on a 4th and 15 play might be equal to that of an onsides kick.

I don't think this is about player safety

That's probably true. I guess if they're going to eliminate regular kickoffs, they figure they might as well replace onsides kicks with some kind of "regular" play. Probably more exciting to watch than an expected onsides kick.
The one rule they really needed to go after is PI  
jcn56 : 1/23/2020 9:39 am : link
the whole thing is a fucking mess now, with replay reviews that are inconsistent and vary too wildly.

They'd go a long way towards fixing that mess by just making the PI penalty a flat 15 yard penalty and calling it a day. The league is already too biased in favor of offense, and reducing the impact of some of the PI calls might help restore some balance there and reduce the dependence on replay.
RE: The one rule they really needed to go after is PI  
Mad Mike : 1/23/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14790604 jcn56 said:
Quote:
the whole thing is a fucking mess now, with replay reviews that are inconsistent and vary too wildly.

They'd go a long way towards fixing that mess by just making the PI penalty a flat 15 yard penalty and calling it a day. The league is already too biased in favor of offense, and reducing the impact of some of the PI calls might help restore some balance there and reduce the dependence on replay.

15 yards is still a pretty big penalty - if a coach is inclined to challenge, I doubt reducing it to 15 yards would make much difference in his decision. I think they should instead recognize that the missed call against the Falcons last year was awful, but also a real outlier, and the vast vast majority of bad calls are simply bad judgement rather than egregious misses like that one, and life's hard and all that, but you can't challenge bad judgement. Some bad calls are preferable to the shitshow the PI challenges were this year imo, and they should just recognize it was a mistake and eliminate it.
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