Think Kitchens is the natural in-house choice to be OC if Garrett gets hired as a HC next year.
Yes.
But I’m amazed with all this talk that Garrett would be this hot coordinator candidate for a HC opening. Don’t you think other GMs can read his resume like we can? 10 years, only two meaningless first round playoff wins is all to show.....and with a team very loaded in his last 5 years.
Come on....I doubt there are two people here at BBI who wanted him to be our HC....so why do you believe GMs are lining up to hire him?
You're honestly amazed? Think about the head coaches who have gotten multiple opportunities. It's fairly commonplace. If he didnt have a dallas star on his shirt people would say hes had a positive run as a head coach.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
3m
My understanding on Freddie Kitchens is that, while it may happen, at this time nothing is finalized with him joining the Giants and Joe Judge’s staff.
In comment 14788862 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
This is a great point. Gives me hope. At the time I guess I just figured the guys mcadoo and shurmur hired to work under them were by design, most probably were but when James bettcher is probably the most exciting asst coaching hire, that’s pretty underwhelming compared to now.
Not including judge, who is still an unknown HC commodity, but Jason Garrett is by far the best coach we’ve hired here since coughlin was on his way out. He blows shurmur and mcadoo out of the water. As crazy as it sounds you could argue that kitchens Is the second best. The giants will be a better coached team going forward. The change might be pretty dramatic.
Some folks learn from one failure, some give up and some don't learn
But the good ones do. There is a thesis in top management recruiting that you always want a guy/woman who can tell you the two biggest mistakes they made, why they made them and what they learned.
If they have more than 2 major lessons learned then move on.
Anyway, and more relevant, we have spent a lot of years being under coached so Im not going to over rotate on the dangers of being over-coached until someone shows it truly caused a negative outcome
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that. Judge should lean on Garrett if he needs that kind of advice. But I suspect that Judge is the type of guy who will want to figure out as much of it on his own as he can.
the meal”. Lots of voices at the table to coordinate during draft, roster building, game planning, etc. What sounds good in January can be a real problem come September. Hopefully it will all work out for a better, more competitive team.
With Garret as OC, I doubt coordinating the work of the entire offensive staff will present a problem.
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that.
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
Think Kitchens is the natural in-house choice to be OC if Garrett gets hired as a HC next year.
Yes.
But I’m amazed with all this talk that Garrett would be this hot coordinator candidate for a HC opening. Don’t you think other GMs can read his resume like we can? 10 years, only two meaningless first round playoff wins is all to show.....and with a team very loaded in his last 5 years.
Come on....I doubt there are two people here at BBI who wanted him to be our HC....so why do you believe GMs are lining up to hire him?
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that.
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
We'll agree to disagree.
Shurmur claimed he learned so much from his failure as head coach of the Browns. And then we got to learn that he was still the same failure here with the Giants.
Winning a playoff game isn't failing. In fact, as a Browns head coach, that's climbing Everest.
Question: Who is the HC of the Cleveland Browns who last won a playoff game?
It's such bullshit to say that BB failed in Cleveland. If Modell hadn't announced the move to Baltimore the year after BB took them to 2nd rd of playoffs (for the last time), who knows how much success BB and the Browns could've had.
Winning a playoff game isn't failing. In fact, as a Browns head coach, that's climbing Everest.
Question: Who is the HC of the Cleveland Browns who last won a playoff game?
It's such bullshit to say that BB failed in Cleveland. If Modell hadn't announced the move to Baltimore the year after BB took them to 2nd rd of playoffs (for the last time), who knows how much success BB and the Browns could've had.
Yep. Just another narrative that refuses to die along with "Wellington Mara LET Tom Landry just walk away to Dallas".
I'm talking about your Shurmur point. It would make sense if Freddie Kitchens was our head coach. He's not.
No, it makes sense in the context of the conversation earlier in the thread -- the value Kitchens will provide to Judge is being a good TE (we assume) coach, not someone with valuable head coaching experience for Judge to lean on.
My Shurmur point illustrated that whatever Shurmur thought he learned in his first failure really didn't amount to anything valuable for his next head coaching opportunity. So why give any credence to what Kitchens may think he learned from his abysmal failure? There's not really much to learn from wretched head coaching failures like Pat Shurmur and Freddie Kitchens.
Garrett is a different story, because he was a head coach for a long time and had mixed results. He did some things well as a head coach, but underachieved in several areas.
it's not as if Kitchens were some high performing coordinator that was elevated to HC either. He was a part time interim HC who got the job mostly because his QB was comfortable with him, and the whole situation imploded on him in one season. Even his experience as a position coach is uneven - he spent a lot of time bouncing around between organizations in different capacities.
So he might turn out to be a good position coach, and it's possible that his experience as a HC, however brief, gives him some additional useful perspective. It's also possible that he was an average position coach who bounced from team to team, and was promoted well above his ability by an organization that is known for making bad decisions.
In comment 14788862 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
It may turn out to be a great coaching staff, but aside from Garrett (who was hired because of his head coaching experience) and the guys he retained from the Shurmur staff, he hired only guys he worked with. It smells a bit of cronyism.
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that.
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
We'll agree to disagree.
Shurmur claimed he learned so much from his failure as head coach of the Browns. And then we got to learn that he was still the same failure here with the Giants.
IMO, if Shurmur was really honest with himself, he would have tried to step away from the offense and run the team overall. Instead he got fired doing it his stubborn way. I'm not sure he learned anything, and I'm not sure he was open to learning anything.
In comment 14788862 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
Huh, bw says the glass is half empty. Fucking shocked.
IMO, if Shurmur was really honest with himself, he would have tried to step away from the offense and run the team overall. Instead he got fired doing it his stubborn way. I'm not sure he learned anything, and I'm not sure he was open to learning anything.
Shurmur should have handed over play calling duties after his first season. I am not really a fan of Shula but he should have been given this responsibility from the beginning.
Shurmur couldn't handle dual responsibilities as few coaches can. Also Shula shouldn't have been the OC and QB coach. With no cap restraints for hiring coaches it still bothers me that the Giants had multiple coaches doing the work of two people.
league is littered with failed HC's who returned to being successful coordinators and position coaches.
A lot of guys aren't cut out to be the head guy.
It isn't like Kitchens has been a failure at his stops.
This is a concept that some fail to acknowledge. We just saw several posters clamor for the Giants to hire Norv Turner or Wade Phillips as coordinators. Both of those men failed at being a HC twice yet returned to being coordinators where they excel.
I would be happy to have Kitchens on the Giants staff as long as its not OC or HC. He has significant experience as a TE coach which is valuable to a young staff such as this.
In comment 14788862 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
Huh, bw says the glass is half empty. Fucking shocked.
I don't think we know what's inside the glass yet. So whether it's half full/half empty we're not there yet.
It seems like a real stretch to say this coaching staff is full of "great talent"...
IMO, if Shurmur was really honest with himself, he would have tried to step away from the offense and run the team overall. Instead he got fired doing it his stubborn way. I'm not sure he learned anything, and I'm not sure he was open to learning anything.
But I don't think one tumultuous year as Browns HC is a black mark Kitchens can't recover from. He was clearly promoted too early, but he also had to deal with a lot of, ahem, "personalities" on the team, a GM power struggle behind the scenes, and an owner who is an ass. Not surprising that he was overwhelmed. Now that he's back to being a position coach, I wouldn't be shocked if he's better than most of the people cycling through here lately.
Quote:
after Kitchens tells Judge to "go get your fuckin shine box".
Dude...what are you on tonight?
Nothing. Just having fun with this after that swing set story.
Quote:
Think Kitchens is the natural in-house choice to be OC if Garrett gets hired as a HC next year.
Yes.
But I’m amazed with all this talk that Garrett would be this hot coordinator candidate for a HC opening. Don’t you think other GMs can read his resume like we can? 10 years, only two meaningless first round playoff wins is all to show.....and with a team very loaded in his last 5 years.
Come on....I doubt there are two people here at BBI who wanted him to be our HC....so why do you believe GMs are lining up to hire him?
You're honestly amazed? Think about the head coaches who have gotten multiple opportunities. It's fairly commonplace. If he didnt have a dallas star on his shirt people would say hes had a positive run as a head coach.
Quote:
In comment 14788854 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
after Kitchens tells Judge to "go get your fuckin shine box".
Dude...what are you on tonight?
Nothing. Just having fun with this after that swing set story.
Well okay then.
Do The Freddie
@JordanRaanan
·
3m
My understanding on Freddie Kitchens is that, while it may happen, at this time nothing is finalized with him joining the Giants and Joe Judge’s staff.
Great thanks. Any more relevant quotes from the land of make believe that might apply here? Something from Papa Smurf perhaps?
This is so true.
Re: Bill Belicheck and the Cleveland Browns.
Kaden Smith really showed a lot last year both in the blocking and receiving department.
Love this hire if its for TEs.
This is a great point. Gives me hope. At the time I guess I just figured the guys mcadoo and shurmur hired to work under them were by design, most probably were but when James bettcher is probably the most exciting asst coaching hire, that’s pretty underwhelming compared to now.
Not including judge, who is still an unknown HC commodity, but Jason Garrett is by far the best coach we’ve hired here since coughlin was on his way out. He blows shurmur and mcadoo out of the water. As crazy as it sounds you could argue that kitchens Is the second best. The giants will be a better coached team going forward. The change might be pretty dramatic.
You’re a complete dumpster fire every time you post. And your self awareness absolutely sucks for not realizing it.
Quote:
- Thanos
Great thanks. Any more relevant quotes from the land of make believe that might apply here? Something from Papa Smurf perhaps?
So you are more of a “I consider experience experience” - Loki
Kinda person?
Quote:
- Thanos
You’re a complete dumpster fire every time you post. And your self awareness absolutely sucks for not realizing it.
Thank you,
Quote:
some of the most important stuff is to fail
Re: Bill Belicheck and the Cleveland Browns.
Winning a playoff game isn't failing. In fact, as a Browns head coach, that's climbing Everest.
But the good ones do. There is a thesis in top management recruiting that you always want a guy/woman who can tell you the two biggest mistakes they made, why they made them and what they learned.
If they have more than 2 major lessons learned then move on.
Anyway, and more relevant, we have spent a lot of years being under coached so Im not going to over rotate on the dangers of being over-coached until someone shows it truly caused a negative outcome
I can see a need for a passing game coordinator (I don’t like that title) to work with WR coach, TE coach and RB coach.
With Garret as OC, I doubt coordinating the work of the entire offensive staff will present a problem.
Garret's used to orchestrating an entire team...
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
Quote:
Think Kitchens is the natural in-house choice to be OC if Garrett gets hired as a HC next year.
Yes.
But I’m amazed with all this talk that Garrett would be this hot coordinator candidate for a HC opening. Don’t you think other GMs can read his resume like we can? 10 years, only two meaningless first round playoff wins is all to show.....and with a team very loaded in his last 5 years.
Come on....I doubt there are two people here at BBI who wanted him to be our HC....so why do you believe GMs are lining up to hire him?
He was 85-67 as a HC. He’s not Pat Shurmur.
Quote:
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that.
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
We'll agree to disagree.
Shurmur claimed he learned so much from his failure as head coach of the Browns. And then we got to learn that he was still the same failure here with the Giants.
Quote:
In comment 14788917 Bill2 said:
Quote:
some of the most important stuff is to fail
Re: Bill Belicheck and the Cleveland Browns.
Winning a playoff game isn't failing. In fact, as a Browns head coach, that's climbing Everest.
Question: Who is the HC of the Cleveland Browns who last won a playoff game?
It's such bullshit to say that BB failed in Cleveland. If Modell hadn't announced the move to Baltimore the year after BB took them to 2nd rd of playoffs (for the last time), who knows how much success BB and the Browns could've had.
Yes. You'll have to read through all my posts on this thread to get my overall point.
A lot of guys aren't cut out to be the head guy.
It isn't like Kitchens has been a failure at his stops.
Quote:
In comment 14788923 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14788917 Bill2 said:
Quote:
some of the most important stuff is to fail
Re: Bill Belicheck and the Cleveland Browns.
Winning a playoff game isn't failing. In fact, as a Browns head coach, that's climbing Everest.
Question: Who is the HC of the Cleveland Browns who last won a playoff game?
It's such bullshit to say that BB failed in Cleveland. If Modell hadn't announced the move to Baltimore the year after BB took them to 2nd rd of playoffs (for the last time), who knows how much success BB and the Browns could've had.
Yep. Just another narrative that refuses to die along with "Wellington Mara LET Tom Landry just walk away to Dallas".
No, it makes sense in the context of the conversation earlier in the thread -- the value Kitchens will provide to Judge is being a good TE (we assume) coach, not someone with valuable head coaching experience for Judge to lean on.
My Shurmur point illustrated that whatever Shurmur thought he learned in his first failure really didn't amount to anything valuable for his next head coaching opportunity. So why give any credence to what Kitchens may think he learned from his abysmal failure? There's not really much to learn from wretched head coaching failures like Pat Shurmur and Freddie Kitchens.
Garrett is a different story, because he was a head coach for a long time and had mixed results. He did some things well as a head coach, but underachieved in several areas.
So he might turn out to be a good position coach, and it's possible that his experience as a HC, however brief, gives him some additional useful perspective. It's also possible that he was an average position coach who bounced from team to team, and was promoted well above his ability by an organization that is known for making bad decisions.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
Quote:
In comment 14789022 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
I don't have a problem with Kitchens as a positional coach. But as some have suggested that his head coaching tenure could be an asset for Judge, I wouldn't put much hope in that.
There's plenty of value in learning from someone who's made mistakes doing the same job Judge is about to attempt.
We'll agree to disagree.
Shurmur claimed he learned so much from his failure as head coach of the Browns. And then we got to learn that he was still the same failure here with the Giants.
IMO, if Shurmur was really honest with himself, he would have tried to step away from the offense and run the team overall. Instead he got fired doing it his stubborn way. I'm not sure he learned anything, and I'm not sure he was open to learning anything.
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
Huh, bw says the glass is half empty. Fucking shocked.
IMO, if Shurmur was really honest with himself, he would have tried to step away from the offense and run the team overall. Instead he got fired doing it his stubborn way. I'm not sure he learned anything, and I'm not sure he was open to learning anything.
Shurmur should have handed over play calling duties after his first season. I am not really a fan of Shula but he should have been given this responsibility from the beginning.
Shurmur couldn't handle dual responsibilities as few coaches can. Also Shula shouldn't have been the OC and QB coach. With no cap restraints for hiring coaches it still bothers me that the Giants had multiple coaches doing the work of two people.
A lot of guys aren't cut out to be the head guy.
It isn't like Kitchens has been a failure at his stops.
This is a concept that some fail to acknowledge. We just saw several posters clamor for the Giants to hire Norv Turner or Wade Phillips as coordinators. Both of those men failed at being a HC twice yet returned to being coordinators where they excel.
I would be happy to have Kitchens on the Giants staff as long as its not OC or HC. He has significant experience as a TE coach which is valuable to a young staff such as this.
Quote:
In comment 14788862 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
but this 38-year-old first-time head coach is attracting some great talent to work with him. That says a lot. People generally want to work with guys who can advance their careers. The contrast with the last staff is stunning.
Interesting definition of "great". Where exactly is this great coaching he's hired?
It's intriguing. But right now it's a massive unknown outside of Garrett, really. And he was a good OC. I don't think he's in elite OC status like a Zampese, Turner, McDaniels, Martz, Saunders, etc.
Huh, bw says the glass is half empty. Fucking shocked.
I don't think we know what's inside the glass yet. So whether it's half full/half empty we're not there yet.
It seems like a real stretch to say this coaching staff is full of "great talent"...
Kitchens wasn't even the Browns' interim head coach in 2018. Gregg Williams was.
I agree completely.