First ballot should be for ridiculously awesome players. Eli can wait a bit. Nothing wrong with that. If he gets in first that’s great I hope he does, but he probably won’t.
A lot depends on other first ballot candidates. It helps that Brady and Fitzgerald are playing another season. Not sure Kuechly is first ballot, given how short his career was. I'm gonna say he sneaks in on the first try.
If you asked me in 2012, it would have been a no brainer. After too many mediocre years, I’m concerned that he’s dropped too much. On the plus side, he’s done what few have done in history. It’s not just the 2 rings, it’s that he led the team on 2 great playoff runs winning many important games on the road and he made the big plays. Second, he’s a genuinely nice guy who has made no enemies in the press plus he’s got the pedigree. I think he gets in but it will not be easy by a long shot.
Tom Lavaro was on Chad Dukes radio show here in DC Â
Tonight shortly after the announcement. So Chad opened the debate to callers and Tom and him spoke after all the calls. Tom told Chad that Just so he knows, the consensus among sports writers is Eli is going in no doubt. But he didn’t say whether it was first ballot or not.
His confidence gave me the impression it will be first ballot.
overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I suspect that voters are going to get to see just how well-liked he really is around the league with this retirement. They got a taste of that with his benching. I think he will end up in Canton, maybe not in 5 years but nowhere near as long as they kept Harry out. He has the numbers and he has the pelts. Infuriating that the organization failed him in his latter years to where this is even a question. It should not have been.
But he'll get in. Even if you hate the guy it's difficult to keep a 2 time Super Bowl MVP who beat the sports greatest dynasty twice, won on the road in Green Bay twice, and won on the road in San Francisco and Dallas out of the hall fame. I mean the guy beat Brady twice and beat Favre on the road in 20 below zero weather. These are not some usual happenings that most QBs were doing.
overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I suspect that voters are going to get to see just how well-liked he really is around the league with this retirement. They got a taste of that with his benching. I think he will end up in Canton, maybe not in 5 years but nowhere near as long as they kept Harry out. He has the numbers and he has the pelts. Infuriating that the organization failed him in his latter years to where this is even a question. It should not have been.
Agree, I don’t see him first ballot, but don’t think he gets stuck as long as Carson.
Harry suffered from having his prime happen before the age of sport center and national media coverage, so I think a lot of voters kind of forgot about him for a while compared to other more recent candidates through the 80s and 90s
Eli will be debated, and won’t ever be considered on the level of Brady, Peyton, Brees and some others, but i think he’ll still be voted in within a couple years of becoming eligible
Rivers retiring this year will make for some interesting debates. I think it will make Eli look worse, because Eli has the post season success, but Rivers beats him in pretty much ever other passing category. I think the comparison would make voters think either both go in as first years, or neither does...and they will probably pick neither.
Eli would probably have a better shot if he wasn't being directly compared to Rivers.
... is Nick Foles also beating Brady that time. If the Patriots win that Superbowl Eli would be a slam dunk because he'd be the only one who ever stopped Brady and the Patriots.
I think he'll eventually get in but he won't be a first ballot. Probably won't even be a 2nd ballot if Brady retires after next season.
Yes. And that's a crime with overrated players like Namath in the Canton.
This Simms thing really bothers me. He deserves much better. The other one, while we're on it, is Sterling Sharpe. He career was cut short by injury, but go look at his numbers for his seven years as a WR. They are phenomenal.
It'll seem like a crime but it's not, Strahan didn't make it on the first go either. I don't think Eli will have to wait long, if it doesn't happen in the first year or two.
Unfortunately, many people dislike, discredit and belittle him. I think his candidacy would be strengthened if Ben, Rodgers and Brees fail to win another super bowl and if Brady puts 2-3 more years in after Eli's retirement.
Eli may have retired at the perfect time. Outside of Peyton, there aren't many/if any resumes as strong as Eli on the HOF horizon. Romo, Luck, Vick, Palmer potentially Rivers and Flacco?
Eli's case is much stronger and the competition could push him over the goal line. Will miss 10.
RE: I think he's earned a first ballot but won't get it Â
It'll seem like a crime but it's not, Strahan didn't make it on the first go either. I don't think Eli will have to wait long, if it doesn't happen in the first year or two.
This was brought up elsewhere, but by retiring now, he will first appear on the ballot when Big Ben, Rivers, and Brady are not. By that time, Peyton will be a couple years removed from induction already.
Keuchly will be on Eli's ballot, but that shouldn't prevent Eli from getting in. Fact is, Eli is a worthy first ballot HOFer. At the time he is up for induction, he will be 10th in yards and 10th in TDs (Rodgers, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan will pass him in those categories). In fact, he could even fall to 11th in yardage, as Stafford will easily accrue the 16,000 yards to catch Eli in those five years, if he keeps playing.
Nonetheless, it is impossible to ignore what Eli did in the POs. His numbers improved across the board. He threw 18 TDs to 9 INTs. He has as many postseason wins as Drew Brees (who is 8-8). More rings than Brees, Rodgers, Favre, Marino, etc.). He beat what is widely regarded as the best team ever in 2008 and doubled down 4 years later. Those two years, he led the Giants on literally the hardest paths to SB victories. 7 of his 8 postseason wins were when the Giants were underdogs in the games.
The stats support his induction. But the matter of fact is that you play to win titles. He led his team to two of them. He is 1 of 12 QBs ever to win multiple SBs and one of five to win multiple SB MVPs. It is nonsensical for voters to even think of keeping the guy out.
Peyton may be the better regular season QB, but I'd take Eli in the postseason over him any day of the week. In Peyton's lone SB run with the Colts, he threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 games. His draft compatriot - Rivers - has literally never beaten Brady. Ever.
Eli was screwed by bad OL's the last half of his career and that caused his numbers to be "less than" and brought losses. A crying shame Reese could draft or obtain OL's to help Eli.
Eli was screwed by bad OL's the last half of his career and that caused his numbers to be "less than" and brought losses. A crying shame Reese could draft or obtain OL's to help Eli.
Agreed. JR could not evaluate OL to save his life (or his job). Hence as the Accorsi OL deteriorated, JR could not rebuild it, and without an OL a team literally can’t go anywhere.
It’s crazy how he could draft OL in the 1st round and they wouldn’t even turn out to be average, they were just BAD. Somehow it’s like the higher up he drafted an O Lineman the worse the player turned out to be. I mean think about it: Richburg, Pugh, Flowers... each one a higher pick than the next and each one a worse player than the next.
Ereck Flowers truly set the franchise back a half a decade. He was impressively bad. Remember when we thought we just had to switch him to his “natural position” at RT? So funny how we convinced ourselves that a player who clearly sucks ass at playing football would somehow not suck ass just by putting him on a different side of the field. I remember starting Wheeler in that one game in 2018 and it actually was noticeably better... a 2nd year undrafted player was a breath of fresh air compared to our 4th year #9 overall pick. Insane.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always love Reese for the role he played in bringing 2 Lombardi trophies to this franchise. I honestly think he sometimes doesn’t get enough credit around here for the good things he did do. No GM is perfect, and I really do believe the combination of Accorsi’s talents and Reese’s talents were actually the perfect fit for building a team at that time and that’s why 2005-2012 was one of the greatest eras of this franchise.
It felt like Accorsi’s core guys held the fabric together with hard-nosed disciplined play and sound fundamentals, while Reese’s guys were flat out playmakers who just beat the other team with speed, strength, athleticism. (I realize that’s a very simplified way of putting it and not true in every instance for every player, I’m just speaking generally.)
But man, if only Reese could have just admitted that he literally knew nothing about evaluating OL and passed that responsibility to... literally anyone else... Eli might have had a much better 2nd half of his career and maybe even a 3rd ring.
is play the league social circles game. Contribute to league efforts, games, Sunday show announcing/pregame. So many others have used that to get in more quickly and in many cases faster than some of the older players. Realize you have a bunch of sports writers doing picks, which in my view is sort of lame that journalists are doing selection work? In many cases, folks that never played...Reminds me of hollywood awards shows.
First ballot should be for ridiculously awesome players. Eli can wait a bit. Nothing wrong with that. If he gets in first that’s great I hope he does, but he probably won’t.
like Warren Sapp. Still pisses me off that he was first ballot and Strahan wasn't. there is certainly a political element or an anti-NY bias.
But it seems like the media in general would always find ways to knock Eli.
It always seemed like there was a vendetta against him after the draft and him not wanting to play in San Diego.
Throughout it all, Eli handled everything like a professional. I am glad he got that last victory so he didn't have an under .500 record as a reason for voters to hold against him.
I really do hope he gets in on the first ballot and given some of the support he has received from media/fans over the last few years, I am crossing my fingers.
“I will vote for Eli Manning first ballot,” ESPN’s Sal Paolontonio said. “He was great when it counted the most. Manning has the top-flight passing numbers and the magnificent durability to cement his legacy of greatness. He has been a great ambassador for the game and team he represents. He is a Hall of Famer.”
Agreed. He was clutch when it counted in the biggest games, but even in his prime he was never talked about in the elite QB’s of the era. To mix sports, he is essentially the Bert Blyleven of the NFL. That being said, Joe Namath had a much worse résumé yet is in there.
My standard is "can you tell the story of the game without this player"?
You cant without Eli Manning. His highs were too important to ignore. He is too important to such a prominent franchise and his stats are there too in yards and TDs.
overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I don't think that it is they don't like him, many view him as streaky and inconsistent with too many dumb plays for a smart guy.
I also do not think he will be "Harry Carsoned". Harry was a victim of all those other great Giants LBs being on the same field at the same time and everyone's eyes were drawn to LT.
I think Eli's 2 SB's, 2 SB MVPs and his overall numbers will eventually get him in. Probably the 2nd or 3rd time. The big thing is to two SB last minute drives to beat Brady and Belichick. They cannot look past those two games.
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Looks like Namath retired in '77 and got into the Hall in'85. So he had to wait a few years before he got in.
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Looks like Namath retired in '77 and got into the Hall in'85. So he had to wait a few years before he got in.
Thanks. I see eli as a fair comparison, so if he waits a couple of years, that should be OK. I do know the entrant list gets a lot tougher the years that follow though
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Namath took at least two extra years after he was first eligible.
and I love Eli ... the org did not help him the 2nd 1/2 of his career and that is the issue. He overcame that issue by being an iron-man so he has the statistical numbers. He has the SB, SB MVPs and clutch moments in the postseason as well as slaying the Goliath of his era twice which means you can never discuss the history of football in this without mentioning him ... he is tethered to Brady and BB in that fashion.
Had Plax not shot himself and they repeat or go deep as expected we are not having this discussion.
Eli gets the last name bash but people that actually follow football and understand the big picture see Eli is more "self made" than he is given credit. Guys that played against him say he should get in most players that say nay do not have the same intimacy with him and resent (jealous) how he came in the league and that outweighs rational unbiased thinking and opinions about the subject.
7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions
He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.
The SBs are the tie-breaker.
Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.
A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.
There are a lot of reasonable takes provided in the link below.
Steve Smith's is not one of them in my opinion.
While I wouldn't call the Tyree play a "fluke", I can understand the detractors pointing to that as one, a hell of a lot more than the Manningham throw.
If the Manningham throw is a "fluke" play, then maybe all these years the Mona Lisa has just been a "fluke" work of art. Link - ( New Window )
Of the 04 draft is really odd considering the amount of comparable data you over his entire career to prove he wasn't some inconsiderate, spoiled brat. People have decided to ignore all of the good behavior while continuing to firmly grasp the 04 decision. That isn't logical thinking.
at the All-22 view of the Manningham throw and comes away with the take it is a fluke, they really need to be schooled in football IQ. Everytime I see that play from that angle, it shows the balls Eli had, the decisiveness and accuracy to make one of the most clutch throws of all time.
Of the 04 draft is really odd considering the amount of comparable data you over his entire career to prove he wasn't some inconsiderate, spoiled brat. People have decided to ignore all of the good behavior while continuing to firmly grasp the 04 decision. That isn't logical thinking.
Another ding against the logic bw brings to the table...
2004 has led to a slew of snarky comments about Eli and Archie from him over the years.
Earlier in the 11 season Manningham had the same route and the defense was in cover 2 man under which meant the corner would trail behind Manningham (Manningham was running a streak on the outside) to eliminate underneath throws. The safety plays over the top to bracket Manningham, taking away the deep throw. In that particular game Manningham recognized the coverage and gave up on the route, while Manning threw the ball anyway. The pass was incomplete. Manning told Manningham to continue on that route anyway with all effort to keep the defense honest, and of course if the safety cheated inside Manningham would have the potential for a big play.
Fast forward to that first play of the game winning drive. The same situation as before. Now this time Manning looks right and pulla deep left safety a couple of steps to the middle. Manningham continued on his streak even though the PATS had the kryptonite coverage (cover 2 over under) and Manning put the ball in the perfect location and Manningham made an awesome catch that took total concentration.
Bill Barnwell posted the all 22 of the Manningham throw on Twitter.... Â
and a bunch of people commented about it's greatness. Kurt Warner called it the greatest throw in Superbowl history, and that if it had any less velocity it was incomplete, if it was an inch to the left it was incomplete, if it was an inch to the right it was an INT.
Honestly? bw is a first ballot HOF in BBI Central. Â
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
RE: La Canfora was on local DC radio this morning and he said Â
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
Heard that, was going to post it.
He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
I think more writers loath the Patriots, and the way they’ve conducted business under Belichick, than dislike Eli. And that may give Eli even more consideration - in the first ballot process - for beating the Evil Empire of the NFL.
7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions
He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.
The SBs are the tie-breaker.
Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.
A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.
This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions
Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.
This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions
Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.
Again, assuming you read how I premised it, if you take away the SBs, Romo had better key metrics than Eli - better completion %, better TD/INT ratio, YPA, W/L, etc. Eli is certainly the bigger compiler.
But that wasn't really the point of what I wrote to you earlier. I was underscoring how the SB wins were the tie-breaker.
voters take into account how he was an ambassador for the sport and for an iconic franchise, but they should. With today's focus on fantasy stats some people just look at the numbers.
He has his pelts. He was a role model. Vote him in.
body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..
2 SB put him in automatic contention
Consecutive game streak
All-time passing leader of high profile NFL team
Good guy
I don't think overall record will be held against him nor his interceptions. Brett Farve threw a zillion picks. No one held that against him.
Honestly maybe he doesn't get in the first time but he will be in. He was money in the 4th qtr when the teams were good and delivered in the playoffs against really good teams mostly on the road. I would be surprised if he didn't make it.
overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I think he's an example of a player that no one actually "hates", they just like to make fun of him because he's a doof. EVERYONE respects him and I'm sure that will only strengthen the longer he's away from the game.
He's a shoe in for the HoF, IMO. I doubt first-ballot but he's definitely in.
body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
Heard that, was going to post it.
He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.
Yep, I hear that part too. Puts Eli in a good position for first ballot.
with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
I've always said that history will be kinder to Eli Manning than his critics were while he was playing. I firmly believe that.
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
This. It's the Hall of Fame - not the Hall of All Time QBR leaders.
People bashed Eli because it was good for business, nothing more. All the evidence you need is the McAdoo disaster - all the critics reversed course and backed him 100 percent. You saw a similar outpouring during his final start, and will see it again tomorrow. There is still a cottage industry of Eli bashers - Adam Schein, Bart Scott, Ryan Clark, Chris Carlin - but the actual voters seem to view him favorably. You know Archie and Peyton will do some campaigning on his behalf - they'll secure the South vote.
with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.
But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.
Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.
That's a tougher sell for Eli.
I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...
And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...
His place in history needs to be taken into account. It's not the hall of stats or even win/loss records. Eli has earned special place in NFL history
Yup. I tried explaining this to a friend who think "he's just alright, why the HoF". And while I can see where "he's just alright" comes from (mainly due to the inconsistency), I think people get way too caught up in fantasy stats/projections. My response was - the NFL loves stories, almost as much as (maybe even more) than baseball historians. There was no bigger story (debatable but still its up there) than what Eli did in 07', and then again in 11'. There just isn't, atleast not in the last 20+ years.
The HoF to me signifies excellence, but also importance. Was the NFL different with Eli? 100% - he helped alter the course of history in his own way, but a very clear way that EVERYONE will remember.
Take Aaron Rodgers. All time great QB, IMO. Sure fire 1st ballot hall of famer with 1 SB title. Ask yourself, do you actually remember that title? Do you remember most QB's titles? For me the answer is no, not that notable and that isn't because I'm not a fan of the team, it just didn't transcend the game in anyway (in most cases).
Peyton and Eli have 4 Superbowl Champsionships between them, and 3 MVP's.
Peyton and Eli were back to back Superbowl MVP's in 2006 and 2007. Imagine that chances of two brothers winning back to back Superbowl MVP's? That will likely never happen again.
You cannot tell the story of the NFL without the Manning brothers.
RE: RE: I think if you take a look at Eli's total Â
body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..
Uhh, no. Pretty sure he won 2 super bowls.
LOL seriously. He won 2 Super Bowls, both with 4th quarter comebacks against Bill Belichick defenses with the Pats.
He/they beat the #1 and #2 seed NFC opponents, and the #1 AFC seed twice.
All of these games on the road:
Dallas 13-3 - 13 Pro Bowlers on this team
Green Bay 14-3 - He beat Favre in ice cold temps in Green Bay.
New England 18-0 - Brady was the league MVP that year, and 18-0 says it all.
Green Bay 15-1 - He beat league MVP Aaron Rodgers, 15-1, on the road in Green Bay (2nd playoff win there)
San Fran 14-3 - He dropped back to pass 56 times in a monsoon against a ferocious San Fran defense, the number one defense in the league who sacked 8 times.
New England 15-3 - 2nd time beating Brady and Belichick
Look at those records, and remember each of those teams.
with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.
But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.
Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.
That's a tougher sell for Eli.
I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...
And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...
I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.
But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.
In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...
very high highs and low lows. For me he's not a 1st ballot because of inconsistency but he will get in. He's the type of player that you have to watch over a long period of time to appreciate, he doesnt usually jump off the screen. he is playing in a era where some QBs jump off the screen. Every QB has a highlight reel of their top plays. how long is Eli's?
The link is interesting as it compares other QBs of the same timeframe to Eli, Romo, Ben, Rivers, Palmer and Rodgers Link - ( New Window )
I do see him getting in eventually though. Maybe he has to wait about five years, who knows with that?
I will say he made the right decision to step away from
the game, and move on to the next chapter of his life.
I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.
But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.
In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...
I'm saying that sure Warren Moon could wing it, but compared to Eli's career in the NFL - it's not even close...
I guess my argument is that I don't see the argument AGAINST Eli. That might be due to my blue shaded glasses...but if you stack him against the other hall of famers he more than holds his own.
a smarmy, disingenuous argument to pull out the patently absurd "well if you take away the two Super Bowls" card. Why the fuck would you do that? He earned those Super Bowls. That's why they are part of the equation...
a smarmy, disingenuous argument to pull out the patently absurd "well if you take away the two Super Bowls" card. Why the fuck would you do that? He earned those Super Bowls. That's why they are part of the equation...
"You cannot write the story of the NFL without including Eli Manning." Some players get into the Hall based on sustained excellence, and others like Namath make it in because they contributed to major moments in the game's history.
Eli might not be a first-ballot guy, but I think he deserves to be in because of the latter.
Longevity and the rings (and MVPs). The argument against is stronger if he only had one ring.
But he was the best QB in the playoffs in two separate seasons. He was a top ten QB in the league for 10+ years. The names ahead of him in any given year pretty consistently changed.
I'm concerned voters don't see it the same way. But he should get in.
His confidence gave me the impression it will be first ballot.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I suspect that voters are going to get to see just how well-liked he really is around the league with this retirement. They got a taste of that with his benching. I think he will end up in Canton, maybe not in 5 years but nowhere near as long as they kept Harry out. He has the numbers and he has the pelts. Infuriating that the organization failed him in his latter years to where this is even a question. It should not have been.
He'll get in. Eventually. But he'll get in.
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overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I suspect that voters are going to get to see just how well-liked he really is around the league with this retirement. They got a taste of that with his benching. I think he will end up in Canton, maybe not in 5 years but nowhere near as long as they kept Harry out. He has the numbers and he has the pelts. Infuriating that the organization failed him in his latter years to where this is even a question. It should not have been.
Agree, I don’t see him first ballot, but don’t think he gets stuck as long as Carson.
Harry suffered from having his prime happen before the age of sport center and national media coverage, so I think a lot of voters kind of forgot about him for a while compared to other more recent candidates through the 80s and 90s
Eli will be debated, and won’t ever be considered on the level of Brady, Peyton, Brees and some others, but i think he’ll still be voted in within a couple years of becoming eligible
Eli would probably have a better shot if he wasn't being directly compared to Rivers.
I think he'll eventually get in but he won't be a first ballot. Probably won't even be a 2nd ballot if Brady retires after next season.
Eli is nowhere near his brother's credentials. You just can't make that case, really.
So I think he'll need an extra few years...
Yes. And that's a crime with overrated players like Namath in the Canton.
This Simms thing really bothers me. He deserves much better. The other one, while we're on it, is Sterling Sharpe. He career was cut short by injury, but go look at his numbers for his seven years as a WR. They are phenomenal.
The list of 2-time+ SB MVP winners is pretty short:
Eli Manning (2)
Bart Starr (2)
Terry Bradshaw (2)
Joe Montana (3)
Tom Brady (4)
The other four guys were all *1st-ballot* HOFers too (I'm making the obvious assumption Brady will be 1st ballot).
Considering that list, it's pretty insane that there are actually people out there who don't think Eli should get in at all.
Unfortunately, many people dislike, discredit and belittle him. I think his candidacy would be strengthened if Ben, Rodgers and Brees fail to win another super bowl and if Brady puts 2-3 more years in after Eli's retirement.
Eli may have retired at the perfect time. Outside of Peyton, there aren't many/if any resumes as strong as Eli on the HOF horizon. Romo, Luck, Vick, Palmer potentially Rivers and Flacco?
Eli's case is much stronger and the competition could push him over the goal line. Will miss 10.
This was brought up elsewhere, but by retiring now, he will first appear on the ballot when Big Ben, Rivers, and Brady are not. By that time, Peyton will be a couple years removed from induction already.
Keuchly will be on Eli's ballot, but that shouldn't prevent Eli from getting in. Fact is, Eli is a worthy first ballot HOFer. At the time he is up for induction, he will be 10th in yards and 10th in TDs (Rodgers, Big Ben, and Matt Ryan will pass him in those categories). In fact, he could even fall to 11th in yardage, as Stafford will easily accrue the 16,000 yards to catch Eli in those five years, if he keeps playing.
Nonetheless, it is impossible to ignore what Eli did in the POs. His numbers improved across the board. He threw 18 TDs to 9 INTs. He has as many postseason wins as Drew Brees (who is 8-8). More rings than Brees, Rodgers, Favre, Marino, etc.). He beat what is widely regarded as the best team ever in 2008 and doubled down 4 years later. Those two years, he led the Giants on literally the hardest paths to SB victories. 7 of his 8 postseason wins were when the Giants were underdogs in the games.
The stats support his induction. But the matter of fact is that you play to win titles. He led his team to two of them. He is 1 of 12 QBs ever to win multiple SBs and one of five to win multiple SB MVPs. It is nonsensical for voters to even think of keeping the guy out.
Peyton may be the better regular season QB, but I'd take Eli in the postseason over him any day of the week. In Peyton's lone SB run with the Colts, he threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in 4 games. His draft compatriot - Rivers - has literally never beaten Brady. Ever.
Agreed. JR could not evaluate OL to save his life (or his job). Hence as the Accorsi OL deteriorated, JR could not rebuild it, and without an OL a team literally can’t go anywhere.
It’s crazy how he could draft OL in the 1st round and they wouldn’t even turn out to be average, they were just BAD. Somehow it’s like the higher up he drafted an O Lineman the worse the player turned out to be. I mean think about it: Richburg, Pugh, Flowers... each one a higher pick than the next and each one a worse player than the next.
Ereck Flowers truly set the franchise back a half a decade. He was impressively bad. Remember when we thought we just had to switch him to his “natural position” at RT? So funny how we convinced ourselves that a player who clearly sucks ass at playing football would somehow not suck ass just by putting him on a different side of the field. I remember starting Wheeler in that one game in 2018 and it actually was noticeably better... a 2nd year undrafted player was a breath of fresh air compared to our 4th year #9 overall pick. Insane.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ll always love Reese for the role he played in bringing 2 Lombardi trophies to this franchise. I honestly think he sometimes doesn’t get enough credit around here for the good things he did do. No GM is perfect, and I really do believe the combination of Accorsi’s talents and Reese’s talents were actually the perfect fit for building a team at that time and that’s why 2005-2012 was one of the greatest eras of this franchise.
It felt like Accorsi’s core guys held the fabric together with hard-nosed disciplined play and sound fundamentals, while Reese’s guys were flat out playmakers who just beat the other team with speed, strength, athleticism. (I realize that’s a very simplified way of putting it and not true in every instance for every player, I’m just speaking generally.)
But man, if only Reese could have just admitted that he literally knew nothing about evaluating OL and passed that responsibility to... literally anyone else... Eli might have had a much better 2nd half of his career and maybe even a 3rd ring.
like Warren Sapp. Still pisses me off that he was first ballot and Strahan wasn't. there is certainly a political element or an anti-NY bias.
I'm hoping they put Eli in on the first ballot.
Should he get in eventually - I think so. 2 Super Bowls and had Strahan not retired and Burress not shot himself they had legitimate chance to repeat.
It always seemed like there was a vendetta against him after the draft and him not wanting to play in San Diego.
Throughout it all, Eli handled everything like a professional. I am glad he got that last victory so he didn't have an under .500 record as a reason for voters to hold against him.
I really do hope he gets in on the first ballot and given some of the support he has received from media/fans over the last few years, I am crossing my fingers.
“I will vote for Eli Manning first ballot,” ESPN’s Sal Paolontonio said. “He was great when it counted the most. Manning has the top-flight passing numbers and the magnificent durability to cement his legacy of greatness. He has been a great ambassador for the game and team he represents. He is a Hall of Famer.”
He won playoff games in only two of his 16 years. HOWEVER, in those two years, he was 8-0 in the playoffs.
Agreed. He was clutch when it counted in the biggest games, but even in his prime he was never talked about in the elite QB’s of the era. To mix sports, he is essentially the Bert Blyleven of the NFL. That being said, Joe Namath had a much worse résumé yet is in there.
My standard is "can you tell the story of the game without this player"?
You cant without Eli Manning. His highs were too important to ignore. He is too important to such a prominent franchise and his stats are there too in yards and TDs.
Eli Manning is a Hall of Famer
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I don't think that it is they don't like him, many view him as streaky and inconsistent with too many dumb plays for a smart guy.
I also do not think he will be "Harry Carsoned". Harry was a victim of all those other great Giants LBs being on the same field at the same time and everyone's eyes were drawn to LT.
I think Eli's 2 SB's, 2 SB MVPs and his overall numbers will eventually get him in. Probably the 2nd or 3rd time. The big thing is to two SB last minute drives to beat Brady and Belichick. They cannot look past those two games.
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Looks like Namath retired in '77 and got into the Hall in'85. So he had to wait a few years before he got in.
7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions
He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.
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Joe Namath get into the Hall on the first ballot?
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Looks like Namath retired in '77 and got into the Hall in'85. So he had to wait a few years before he got in.
Thanks. I see eli as a fair comparison, so if he waits a couple of years, that should be OK. I do know the entrant list gets a lot tougher the years that follow though
If so, it would be a travesty for Eli to not. Namath entered the Hal mainly for beating the mighty Colts and establishing the AFL teams as worthy opponents.
Eli taking down the Pats twice certainly is equal or greater to Namath's sole win.
Namath took at least two extra years after he was first eligible.
Had Plax not shot himself and they repeat or go deep as expected we are not having this discussion.
Eli gets the last name bash but people that actually follow football and understand the big picture see Eli is more "self made" than he is given credit. Guys that played against him say he should get in most players that say nay do not have the same intimacy with him and resent (jealous) how he came in the league and that outweighs rational unbiased thinking and opinions about the subject.
7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions
He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.
The SBs are the tie-breaker.
Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.
A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.
Steve Smith's is not one of them in my opinion.
While I wouldn't call the Tyree play a "fluke", I can understand the detractors pointing to that as one, a hell of a lot more than the Manningham throw.
If the Manningham throw is a "fluke" play, then maybe all these years the Mona Lisa has just been a "fluke" work of art.
Link - ( New Window )
Absolutely nothing flukey about it.
Another ding against the logic bw brings to the table...
2004 has led to a slew of snarky comments about Eli and Archie from him over the years.
Fast forward to that first play of the game winning drive. The same situation as before. Now this time Manning looks right and pulla deep left safety a couple of steps to the middle. Manningham continued on his streak even though the PATS had the kryptonite coverage (cover 2 over under) and Manning put the ball in the perfect location and Manningham made an awesome catch that took total concentration.
Heard that, was going to post it.
He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.
That is because people see him having a JOB in the industry has a "gift" and/or privilege not something these guys earn thru hard work and dedication.
I think more writers loath the Patriots, and the way they’ve conducted business under Belichick, than dislike Eli. And that may give Eli even more consideration - in the first ballot process - for beating the Evil Empire of the NFL.
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no doubt.
7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions
He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.
The SBs are the tie-breaker.
Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.
A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.
This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions
Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.
Odd, since he is also a rival of the Redskins....
He won playoff games in only two of his 16 years. HOWEVER, in those two years, he was 8-0 in the playoffs.
Heard this on NFL Network last night, didn’t realize
Eli is the only QB in NFL history to win 4 playoff games in a single season twice
He definitely had a weird career...2 Super Bowl wins in 8 years, followed by only one playoff game (a loss) in his final 8
But simply fact is those super bowl wins carry extra weight bc he took down the Pats dynasty twice
This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions
Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.
Again, assuming you read how I premised it, if you take away the SBs, Romo had better key metrics than Eli - better completion %, better TD/INT ratio, YPA, W/L, etc. Eli is certainly the bigger compiler.
But that wasn't really the point of what I wrote to you earlier. I was underscoring how the SB wins were the tie-breaker.
He has his pelts. He was a role model. Vote him in.
Consecutive game streak
All-time passing leader of high profile NFL team
Good guy
I don't think overall record will be held against him nor his interceptions. Brett Farve threw a zillion picks. No one held that against him.
Honestly maybe he doesn't get in the first time but he will be in. He was money in the 4th qtr when the teams were good and delivered in the playoffs against really good teams mostly on the road. I would be surprised if he didn't make it.
I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.
I think he's an example of a player that no one actually "hates", they just like to make fun of him because he's a doof. EVERYONE respects him and I'm sure that will only strengthen the longer he's away from the game.
He's a shoe in for the HoF, IMO. I doubt first-ballot but he's definitely in.
Uhh, no. Pretty sure he won 2 super bowls.
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Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
Heard that, was going to post it.
He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.
Yep, I hear that part too. Puts Eli in a good position for first ballot.
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
I've always said that history will be kinder to Eli Manning than his critics were while he was playing. I firmly believe that.
He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
This. It's the Hall of Fame - not the Hall of All Time QBR leaders.
Chris Canty Report: Eli Manning announces his retirement New York Giants - ( New Window )
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.
But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.
Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.
That's a tougher sell for Eli.
I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...
And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...
Yup. I tried explaining this to a friend who think "he's just alright, why the HoF". And while I can see where "he's just alright" comes from (mainly due to the inconsistency), I think people get way too caught up in fantasy stats/projections. My response was - the NFL loves stories, almost as much as (maybe even more) than baseball historians. There was no bigger story (debatable but still its up there) than what Eli did in 07', and then again in 11'. There just isn't, atleast not in the last 20+ years.
The HoF to me signifies excellence, but also importance. Was the NFL different with Eli? 100% - he helped alter the course of history in his own way, but a very clear way that EVERYONE will remember.
Take Aaron Rodgers. All time great QB, IMO. Sure fire 1st ballot hall of famer with 1 SB title. Ask yourself, do you actually remember that title? Do you remember most QB's titles? For me the answer is no, not that notable and that isn't because I'm not a fan of the team, it just didn't transcend the game in anyway (in most cases).
Eli's did....twice.
Here's another.
Link - ( New Window )
Peyton and Eli have 4 Superbowl Champsionships between them, and 3 MVP's.
Peyton and Eli were back to back Superbowl MVP's in 2006 and 2007. Imagine that chances of two brothers winning back to back Superbowl MVP's? That will likely never happen again.
You cannot tell the story of the NFL without the Manning brothers.
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body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..
Uhh, no. Pretty sure he won 2 super bowls.
LOL seriously. He won 2 Super Bowls, both with 4th quarter comebacks against Bill Belichick defenses with the Pats.
Oh, he also stayed healthy.
There might be some writers who have an axe to grind with Manning and keep him out on the first ballot, but he'll get in and it will be an event.
All of these games on the road:
Dallas 13-3 - 13 Pro Bowlers on this team
Green Bay 14-3 - He beat Favre in ice cold temps in Green Bay.
New England 18-0 - Brady was the league MVP that year, and 18-0 says it all.
Green Bay 15-1 - He beat league MVP Aaron Rodgers, 15-1, on the road in Green Bay (2nd playoff win there)
San Fran 14-3 - He dropped back to pass 56 times in a monsoon against a ferocious San Fran defense, the number one defense in the league who sacked 8 times.
New England 15-3 - 2nd time beating Brady and Belichick
Look at those records, and remember each of those teams.
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with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.
Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.
If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.
But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.
Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.
That's a tougher sell for Eli.
I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...
And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...
How about Warren Moon?
I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.
But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.
In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...
The link is interesting as it compares other QBs of the same timeframe to Eli, Romo, Ben, Rivers, Palmer and Rodgers
Link - ( New Window )
And my favorites usually tend toward defense.
I will say he made the right decision to step away from
the game, and move on to the next chapter of his life.
I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.
But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.
In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...
I'm saying that sure Warren Moon could wing it, but compared to Eli's career in the NFL - it's not even close...
I guess my argument is that I don't see the argument AGAINST Eli. That might be due to my blue shaded glasses...but if you stack him against the other hall of famers he more than holds his own.
The answer to that is pretty overt
Eli might not be a first-ballot guy, but I think he deserves to be in because of the latter.
But he was the best QB in the playoffs in two separate seasons. He was a top ten QB in the league for 10+ years. The names ahead of him in any given year pretty consistently changed.
I'm concerned voters don't see it the same way. But he should get in.