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So is Eli in Canton in 5 years?

SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/22/2020 9:43 pm
He should be.
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He is not 1st balllot  
MotownGIANTS : 1/23/2020 8:11 am : link
and I love Eli ... the org did not help him the 2nd 1/2 of his career and that is the issue. He overcame that issue by being an iron-man so he has the statistical numbers. He has the SB, SB MVPs and clutch moments in the postseason as well as slaying the Goliath of his era twice which means you can never discuss the history of football in this without mentioning him ... he is tethered to Brady and BB in that fashion.

Had Plax not shot himself and they repeat or go deep as expected we are not having this discussion.

Eli gets the last name bash but people that actually follow football and understand the big picture see Eli is more "self made" than he is given credit. Guys that played against him say he should get in most players that say nay do not have the same intimacy with him and resent (jealous) how he came in the league and that outweighs rational unbiased thinking and opinions about the subject.
RE: Eli is a HOF  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 8:20 am : link
In comment 14790458 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
no doubt.

7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions

He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.


The SBs are the tie-breaker.

Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.

A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.
section125  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/23/2020 8:24 am : link
I don't think a lot of people like him. Goes back to 2004. It's weird.
Let the expert debate begin  
Chris684 : 1/23/2020 8:27 am : link
There are a lot of reasonable takes provided in the link below.

Steve Smith's is not one of them in my opinion.

While I wouldn't call the Tyree play a "fluke", I can understand the detractors pointing to that as one, a hell of a lot more than the Manningham throw.

If the Manningham throw is a "fluke" play, then maybe all these years the Mona Lisa has just been a "fluke" work of art.
Link - ( New Window )
Not liking Manning because  
crick n NC : 1/23/2020 8:28 am : link
Of the 04 draft is really odd considering the amount of comparable data you over his entire career to prove he wasn't some inconsiderate, spoiled brat. People have decided to ignore all of the good behavior while continuing to firmly grasp the 04 decision. That isn't logical thinking.
If anyone looks..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/23/2020 8:30 am : link
at the All-22 view of the Manningham throw and comes away with the take it is a fluke, they really need to be schooled in football IQ. Everytime I see that play from that angle, it shows the balls Eli had, the decisiveness and accuracy to make one of the most clutch throws of all time.

Absolutely nothing flukey about it.
RE: Not liking Manning because  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/23/2020 8:31 am : link
In comment 14790489 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Of the 04 draft is really odd considering the amount of comparable data you over his entire career to prove he wasn't some inconsiderate, spoiled brat. People have decided to ignore all of the good behavior while continuing to firmly grasp the 04 decision. That isn't logical thinking.


Another ding against the logic bw brings to the table...

2004 has led to a slew of snarky comments about Eli and Archie from him over the years.
A bit of a backstory to the Manningham throw  
crick n NC : 1/23/2020 8:40 am : link
Earlier in the 11 season Manningham had the same route and the defense was in cover 2 man under which meant the corner would trail behind Manningham (Manningham was running a streak on the outside) to eliminate underneath throws. The safety plays over the top to bracket Manningham, taking away the deep throw. In that particular game Manningham recognized the coverage and gave up on the route, while Manning threw the ball anyway. The pass was incomplete. Manning told Manningham to continue on that route anyway with all effort to keep the defense honest, and of course if the safety cheated inside Manningham would have the potential for a big play.

Fast forward to that first play of the game winning drive. The same situation as before. Now this time Manning looks right and pulla deep left safety a couple of steps to the middle. Manningham continued on his streak even though the PATS had the kryptonite coverage (cover 2 over under) and Manning put the ball in the perfect location and Manningham made an awesome catch that took total concentration.
Bill Barnwell posted the all 22 of the Manningham throw on Twitter....  
Britt in VA : 1/23/2020 8:42 am : link
and a bunch of people commented about it's greatness. Kurt Warner called it the greatest throw in Superbowl history, and that if it had any less velocity it was incomplete, if it was an inch to the left it was incomplete, if it was an inch to the right it was an INT.
Honestly? bw is a first ballot HOF in BBI Central.  
Big Blue '56 : 1/23/2020 8:43 am : link
Thoughts?
Also if I am not mistaken  
crick n NC : 1/23/2020 8:45 am : link
The giants had the ball on the outside left hash which made it an incredibly tight throw.
La Canfora was on local DC radio this morning and he said  
bradshaw44 : 1/23/2020 9:16 am : link
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.
RE: La Canfora was on local DC radio this morning and he said  
Britt in VA : 1/23/2020 9:45 am : link
In comment 14790568 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.


Heard that, was going to post it.

He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.
RE: section125  
MotownGIANTS : 1/23/2020 9:57 am : link
In comment 14790480 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't think a lot of people like him. Goes back to 2004. It's weird.


That is because people see him having a JOB in the industry has a "gift" and/or privilege not something these guys earn thru hard work and dedication.
RE: La Canfora was on local DC radio this morning and he said  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14790568 bradshaw44 said:
Quote:
Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.


I think more writers loath the Patriots, and the way they’ve conducted business under Belichick, than dislike Eli. And that may give Eli even more consideration - in the first ballot process - for beating the Evil Empire of the NFL.
Steve Smith Sr. calling the Manningham a 'fluke  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/23/2020 10:00 am : link
play' is absurd. That was a beautiful pass.
I think he gets in on his second try.  
Mike in Long Beach : 1/23/2020 10:06 am : link
Strahan didn't even get in on his first try.
RE: RE: Eli is a HOF  
Dnew15 : 1/23/2020 10:07 am : link
In comment 14790471 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14790458 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


no doubt.

7th all time in passing yards
7th all time in passing TDs
7th all time in completions

He's a slam dunk without the two Super Bowl wins and MVPs.



The SBs are the tie-breaker.

Without them, Eli's case is much tougher. He'd be looked at as a compiler. Never having distinguished himself in the regular season with any MVPs or leading the league in any major statistic. Hell, the only bold type in his resume would be "leading" the league in interceptions 3X.

A guy like Romo, in that case, would zoom ahead of Eli.


This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions

Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.
Who cares?  
Gmen1982 : 1/23/2020 10:08 am : link
Does it change your own opinion of him if he doesn't?
But you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/23/2020 10:10 am : link
see, Romo went to the team that drafted him, so he's automatically looked on more favorable.

Odd, since he is also a rival of the Redskins....
RE: as folks have mentioned  
mfsd : 1/23/2020 10:18 am : link
In comment 14790411 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
on BBI repeatedly, he had a really strange career.

He won playoff games in only two of his 16 years. HOWEVER, in those two years, he was 8-0 in the playoffs.


Heard this on NFL Network last night, didn’t realize

Eli is the only QB in NFL history to win 4 playoff games in a single season twice

He definitely had a weird career...2 Super Bowl wins in 8 years, followed by only one playoff game (a loss) in his final 8

But simply fact is those super bowl wins carry extra weight bc he took down the Pats dynasty twice
RE: RE: RE: Eli is a HOF  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 14790649 Dnew15 said:
Quote:

This is a load of shit.
Romo 32nd all time in yards
23rd in TDs
34th in completions

Romo isn't anywhere close to the level of player that Eli was.


Again, assuming you read how I premised it, if you take away the SBs, Romo had better key metrics than Eli - better completion %, better TD/INT ratio, YPA, W/L, etc. Eli is certainly the bigger compiler.

But that wasn't really the point of what I wrote to you earlier. I was underscoring how the SB wins were the tie-breaker.
I don't know if the  
Gman11 : 1/23/2020 10:24 am : link
voters take into account how he was an ambassador for the sport and for an iconic franchise, but they should. With today's focus on fantasy stats some people just look at the numbers.

He has his pelts. He was a role model. Vote him in.
How cool would it be to have Eli and Brady  
ktinsc : 1/23/2020 10:27 am : link
inducted side by side? It will never happen but one can dream..
I think if you take a look at Eli's total  
Jersey55 : 1/23/2020 10:27 am : link
body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..
Yes  
giantsfan227B : 1/23/2020 10:28 am : link
2 SB put him in automatic contention
Consecutive game streak
All-time passing leader of high profile NFL team
Good guy

I don't think overall record will be held against him nor his interceptions. Brett Farve threw a zillion picks. No one held that against him.
Honestly maybe he doesn't get in the first time but he will be in. He was money in the 4th qtr when the teams were good and delivered in the playoffs against really good teams mostly on the road. I would be surprised if he didn't make it.
RE: His  
UConn4523 : 1/23/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14790279 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
overall statistical numbers are imposing, but there are a lot of people out there who simply don't like him.

I think he will be our next Harry Carson vis a vis the HOF.


I think he's an example of a player that no one actually "hates", they just like to make fun of him because he's a doof. EVERYONE respects him and I'm sure that will only strengthen the longer he's away from the game.

He's a shoe in for the HoF, IMO. I doubt first-ballot but he's definitely in.
RE: I think if you take a look at Eli's total  
UConn4523 : 1/23/2020 10:36 am : link
In comment 14790708 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..


Uhh, no. Pretty sure he won 2 super bowls.
He's in my own personal Hall of Fame  
cjac : 1/23/2020 10:40 am : link
in my heart, thats all that matters really
RE: RE: La Canfora was on local DC radio this morning and he said  
bradshaw44 : 1/23/2020 10:44 am : link
In comment 14790613 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14790568 bradshaw44 said:


Quote:


Eli is going in and probably first ballot. Said most writers don't want to put up a stink over a guy with two rings, good enough stats and a last name that is the equivalent in sports to the Kennedy's in politics.



Heard that, was going to post it.

He also said Eli will be in a sweet spot with guys like Adrian Pederson and Larry Fitzgerald electing to play another year.


Yep, I hear that part too. Puts Eli in a good position for first ballot.
I'm not going to disagree  
Dnew15 : 1/23/2020 10:46 am : link
with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.

Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.

Britt  
UConn4523 : 1/23/2020 10:50 am : link
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.

He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.
RE: Britt  
Britt in VA : 1/23/2020 10:53 am : link
In comment 14790763 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.

He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.


I've always said that history will be kinder to Eli Manning than his critics were while he was playing. I firmly believe that.
RE: Britt  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/23/2020 10:55 am : link
In comment 14790763 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that jives with my take on Eli all along - that no one actually hates him. Media is media and they will pretend to do anything for a story. 5 years from now those people are going to be honest and realize that he's a great dude, a warrior on the field, and has 2 of the best SB wins in the history of the league.

He was never the best QB in the league, I just don't think that matters.


This. It's the Hall of Fame - not the Hall of All Time QBR leaders.
Agree completely with Britt and UConn...  
bceagle05 : 1/23/2020 11:00 am : link
People bashed Eli because it was good for business, nothing more. All the evidence you need is the McAdoo disaster - all the critics reversed course and backed him 100 percent. You saw a similar outpouring during his final start, and will see it again tomorrow. There is still a cottage industry of Eli bashers - Adam Schein, Bart Scott, Ryan Clark, Chris Carlin - but the actual voters seem to view him favorably. You know Archie and Peyton will do some campaigning on his behalf - they'll secure the South vote.
He should get in on 07 alone  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/23/2020 11:06 am : link
His place in history needs to be taken into account. It's not the hall of stats or even win/loss records. Eli has earned special place in NFL history

Good  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/23/2020 11:11 am : link
discussion here...


Chris Canty Report: Eli Manning announces his retirement New York Giants - ( New Window )
RE: I'm not going to disagree  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14790757 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.

Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.


If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.

But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.

Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.

That's a tougher sell for Eli.

I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...

And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...
RE: He should get in on 07 alone  
UConn4523 : 1/23/2020 11:16 am : link
In comment 14790791 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
His place in history needs to be taken into account. It's not the hall of stats or even win/loss records. Eli has earned special place in NFL history


Yup. I tried explaining this to a friend who think "he's just alright, why the HoF". And while I can see where "he's just alright" comes from (mainly due to the inconsistency), I think people get way too caught up in fantasy stats/projections. My response was - the NFL loves stories, almost as much as (maybe even more) than baseball historians. There was no bigger story (debatable but still its up there) than what Eli did in 07', and then again in 11'. There just isn't, atleast not in the last 20+ years.

The HoF to me signifies excellence, but also importance. Was the NFL different with Eli? 100% - he helped alter the course of history in his own way, but a very clear way that EVERYONE will remember.

Take Aaron Rodgers. All time great QB, IMO. Sure fire 1st ballot hall of famer with 1 SB title. Ask yourself, do you actually remember that title? Do you remember most QB's titles? For me the answer is no, not that notable and that isn't because I'm not a fan of the team, it just didn't transcend the game in anyway (in most cases).

Eli's did....twice.
It's only been a day but the early returns  
Chris684 : 1/23/2020 11:20 am : link
both locally and nationally seem to be favorable for Eli to the HOF.

Here's another.
Link - ( New Window )
The NFL has been around for 100 years.  
Britt in VA : 1/23/2020 11:22 am : link
A Manning has been a QB during 37 of those years.

Peyton and Eli have 4 Superbowl Champsionships between them, and 3 MVP's.

Peyton and Eli were back to back Superbowl MVP's in 2006 and 2007. Imagine that chances of two brothers winning back to back Superbowl MVP's? That will likely never happen again.

You cannot tell the story of the NFL without the Manning brothers.
RE: RE: I think if you take a look at Eli's total  
mfsd : 1/23/2020 11:30 am : link
In comment 14790736 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14790708 Jersey55 said:


Quote:


body of work over his whole career you will see him as a very inconsistent QB who was never the same from game to game, fans just never knew which Eli would show up on sunday. Eli's biggest claim to fame was his ability to stay healthy..



Uhh, no. Pretty sure he won 2 super bowls.


LOL seriously. He won 2 Super Bowls, both with 4th quarter comebacks against Bill Belichick defenses with the Pats.

Oh, he also stayed healthy.
...  
christian : 1/23/2020 11:31 am : link
There's zero chance Manning Inc. and the NFL let the opportunity pass to cash in on the Manning brothers being in the hall together.

There might be some writers who have an axe to grind with Manning and keep him out on the first ballot, but he'll get in and it will be an event.
The level of competition he faced in those two playoff runs is insane:  
Britt in VA : 1/23/2020 11:35 am : link
He/they beat the #1 and #2 seed NFC opponents, and the #1 AFC seed twice.

All of these games on the road:

Dallas 13-3 - 13 Pro Bowlers on this team
Green Bay 14-3 - He beat Favre in ice cold temps in Green Bay.
New England 18-0 - Brady was the league MVP that year, and 18-0 says it all.

Green Bay 15-1 - He beat league MVP Aaron Rodgers, 15-1, on the road in Green Bay (2nd playoff win there)
San Fran 14-3 - He dropped back to pass 56 times in a monsoon against a ferocious San Fran defense, the number one defense in the league who sacked 8 times.
New England 15-3 - 2nd time beating Brady and Belichick


Look at those records, and remember each of those teams.
RE: RE: I'm not going to disagree  
Dnew15 : 1/23/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14790804 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14790757 Dnew15 said:


Quote:


with the fact that Eli was the bigger compiler than Romo and that Romo had better next-gen stats...but compiler or not - when your #7 on all-time lists like yards and TDs - you are one of the best of all-time, I don't think it matters all that much how you got there.

Go look at the baseball guys that are #7 in HR and RBIs.
It's Griffey and Lou Gehrig - imagine a baseball HOF where those guys don't get in... In my mind TDs and yards are the HR and RBIs of football.




If you do something for a long time, and that is a skill to a degree, you will accumulate bigger numbers. So I accept it as a variable.

But that doesn't mean you were a dominant player at any point.

Griffey is a good example of a dominant player and a player who compiled (imagine what he would have compiled if he was healthier). There is no doubt you can say that Griffey was one of the most dominant players in the league at least 10 seasons in his career.



That's a tougher sell for Eli.

I'll say this. I think Eli was/is = or > than Aikman. I think Aikman is one of the most overrated player in the history of the NFL. Great talent - no doubt. But his numbers are pedestrian and I think Eli did a lot more with a lot less...

And I get that Aikman played in an offense that was more run centric. But just look at his completion %, TDs, TD-INT ration, etc. They aren't impressive...


How about Warren Moon?
What about Moon?  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 12:15 pm : link
Are you asking how Eli compares to Moon?

I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.

But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.

In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...
As others have pointed out, a very weird career  
Rudy5757 : 1/23/2020 12:16 pm : link
very high highs and low lows. For me he's not a 1st ballot because of inconsistency but he will get in. He's the type of player that you have to watch over a long period of time to appreciate, he doesnt usually jump off the screen. he is playing in a era where some QBs jump off the screen. Every QB has a highlight reel of their top plays. how long is Eli's?

The link is interesting as it compares other QBs of the same timeframe to Eli, Romo, Ben, Rivers, Palmer and Rodgers
Link - ( New Window )
BW  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/23/2020 12:19 pm : link
Moon has always been one of my favorite all time non Giants. Threw the prettiest ball you'll ever see.

And my favorites usually tend toward defense.
I don't see him as first ballot material  
Carson53 : 1/23/2020 1:11 pm : link
I do see him getting in eventually though. Maybe he has to wait about five years, who knows with that?
I will say he made the right decision to step away from
the game, and move on to the next chapter of his life.
RE: What about Moon?  
Dnew15 : 1/23/2020 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14790877 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Are you asking how Eli compares to Moon?

I don't think Moon got to the NFL until he was close to 30...? His prime years were probably left in Canada. And probably because he was black... So it's hard to compare.

But he did put up some very good numbers in the NFL. A great thrower of the football. A good friend of mine has been in the media for 25+ years so I've been on a lot fields to watch players at field level. I was at a game watching Moon warm up when he was with the Oilers. I kid you not - his ball has such a tight spiral you could hear it whistle through the air. It was unbelievable.

In terms of pure arm talent and throwing a football, Moon was one of the best throwers the game has seen...


I'm saying that sure Warren Moon could wing it, but compared to Eli's career in the NFL - it's not even close...
I guess my argument is that I don't see the argument AGAINST Eli. That might be due to my blue shaded glasses...but if you stack him against the other hall of famers he more than holds his own.
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