Justin Hebert has had great Senior Bowl practices.
Not only has he cemented himself as a high first round pick ,but,some of the scouts are saying he could be in the discussion for the first pick.
it looks like there are two "locks" for high impact defensive players in this draft (Okudah & Young). Not saying that Simmons and others don't have start potential, but if three QB's go in the top 6 it would be a travesty to not trade down. Everyone knows Miami needs a QB and the Chargers, Panthers & Jags could all want the same thing. We have a spot that many teams would trade up for if they want either Tua or Herbert; we should take advantage and move down a few picks, take a high impact defensive player or OL, and hopefully add a 1st or 2nd round pick depending on who trades up.
All this is pre-combine so I know a lot can change.
Wasn't he discussed last year as a potential draft pick..
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I understand what you are saying but teams don't fall in love with a QB. They fall in love with a player. Just because there are 2 players that play the same position doesn't mean that they fit each organization the same. They have different styles. They throw with different arms. One is coming off an injury. One is coming off a disappointed year. And not that this would factor into my decision making but having Tua in Miami makes a ton of sense for their fan base. It is kind of like when the Rams took Goff over Wentz. Goff was a California kid that they wanted to put asses in the seats. Some teams value that.
In comment 14790588 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
In comment 14790584 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
That would be ideal, but if teams say look I have Tua and Herbert in the same tier and I have convictions about both players, Miami definitely would not trade up because they are guaranteed one at #5. Chargers and Panthers MIGHT be in play to block the other team, but Chargers know that if Carolina doesn't blow the Giants away they are likely to be fine at #6. I say that because Gettleman is not one who likes to trade down and I think the Mara family is going to be hesitant about trading with Carolina and giving Rhule/Brady a potential franchise QB after Rhule's antics in the coaching search.
In comment 14790588 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
In comment 14790584 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
Agreed, the only team to seemingly play that game was the Jets with their move up to 3 way before the draft started.
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
Lou, they were not going to get much from Miami anyway, it is San Diego, Las Vegas, Carolina (others) where the gold would come from. Miami knows the Giants aren't taking a QB. You are right there would need to be another team or two looking QB for the Giants to get some nice additional picks.
Unusual year, I am actually feeling DG may say let's get extra picks and move back for an addtional late #1 or a #2 and #3.
RE: Miami isn't going to even sniff trading up to 4
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
but hey, I hope someone falls in love with him so they trade up with us.
I don't see that at all. Herbert has a rocket arm who played in a more run-oriented offense, Gabbert was in a pass happy offense at Missouri, and he didn't throw lasers like Herbert did, not even close. Gabbert was also less of an athlete, much less of a threat with his legs.
move back, it shouldn't be for a late first. They should be able to stay in the Top 10 and get an additional 2nd/3rd and a 1st next year
I'm with you on that. If they do trade back, I want them more in the 5-7 range and maybe back to 9 if Jax blows their doors of with an offer, but no farther back than that.
Ideally they'd get a top 5 positional player talent even at 7 if two QB's go higher and if a team grabbed a third QB, they'd still be in play for what's left of Young, Okudah,Simmons, Jeudy, Lamb or the OT of their choice to go with the additional picks.
I'm still thinking they must get the D some help, and I want one of the top four D players in this draft but hope they could get him plus picks.
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
Eman you overlooked what I first wrote about DG: he likely "won't do that" re bluff. It's not his style, ND I think it gives him some credibility among the league's other front office folks.
The "can't bluff" part is a maybe add on to the 1st point that he won't bluff.
He doesn't view trades as a "boy did I hoodwink so and so" type of deal. Any pro would naturally seek out trades that are more likely "win win" for both partners.
RE: RE: RE: Miami isn't going to even sniff trading up to 4
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
Eman you overlooked what I first wrote about DG: he likely "won't do that" re bluff. It's not his style, ND I think it gives him some credibility among the league's other front office folks.
The "can't bluff" part is a maybe add on to the 1st point that he won't bluff.
He doesn't view trades as a "boy did I hoodwink so and so" type of deal. Any pro would naturally seek out trades that are more likely "win win" for both partners.
Gotcha Lou and yes I did miss that part.
I'm still interested in how you think Miami would know if the Giants had a serious trade offer though?
move back, it shouldn't be for a late first. They should be able to stay in the Top 10 and get an additional 2nd/3rd and a 1st next year
I agree, but I'd go to 12 with the Raiders for 12 & 18 and at least one of their #3s or get #1 or #2 for next year's draft.
I'd like to move down, but stay in the top 10. But I would consider moving to #12 for that pick, #18, and a third from Oakland. That would give us two firsts, a second, and two thirds, assuming we get a comp third for Collins. It would also take the sting out of the Williams trade.
In comment 14790588 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
In comment 14790584 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
Sometimes they do, or at least they appear to. When the Jets traded up to #3 two years ago, they appeared to be indicating that even if the Browns and Giants both went with QBs, which was a scenario that was far from unlikely at the time, they would be comfortable with whichever QB was left (or possibly taking Barkley themselves there).
there is not more attention paid to supporting talent and coaching when they rank the QB's. Look at the NFL and how important it is.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
QBs always move higher than they should these days...
and tells them. Which he might do just as a courtesy given they let us hire Graham in a lateral move.
But that's speculation only.
Ok, we're on the same page then. Picking up the phone and telling them as a courtesy is what I was wondering about.
My question was more along the lines of how would they know without DG telling them, and the courtesy line takes care of the bluffing part of my question.
there is not more attention paid to supporting talent and coaching when they rank the QB's. Look at the NFL and how important it is.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
I think scouts very much take this into consideration. As for Burrow, of course his success wouldn't be as good with less talent around him but it wouldn't change the throws he makes, his footwork, his pre-snap adjustments, etc.
That's why Jones is a fascinating case study. His support cast was awful, and despite that, he displayed some pretty important NFL caliber traits.
Herbert should work himself into the top 10, he's the goods
there is not more attention paid to supporting talent and coaching when they rank the QB's. Look at the NFL and how important it is.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
To be fair, Oregon had one of the best offensive lines in the country, and a darn good running game.
On the flip side of that, their receiver situation left a bit to be desired, and Oregon didn't exactly play a bunch of patsies this year, they had a tough schedule.
but his accuracy and decision-making both need a lot of work. Fun QB to watch though, especially for the modern game. These 6'6 QBs with big arms who can run and create offense on the move are changing the game.
Makes me wonder if there are too many QB prospects
there is not more attention paid to supporting talent and coaching when they rank the QB's. Look at the NFL and how important it is.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
I think scouts very much take this into consideration. As for Burrow, of course his success wouldn't be as good with less talent around him but it wouldn't change the throws he makes, his footwork, his pre-snap adjustments, etc.
That's why Jones is a fascinating case study. His support cast was awful, and despite that, he displayed some pretty important NFL caliber traits.
Yes the scouts take into account. I just think the combine post college practices/games and indiv workouts can tell quite a bit. This is why some QB's will fly up the board imo.
The quarterback for the Atlanta Falcons is Bobby Hebert. No "r" which I find fascinating. You know it's Herbert h-e-r-b-e-r-t, Hebert h-e-b-e-r-t. "Hebert" it's a fun name to pronounce. Try and say it Hebert. Take a shot. All right.
Hebert has been on the NFL's list for a while and has a boat load
of talent and perfect size, plus he can run. His team was so so, but his stats are all good (like 32 TDs and 6 Ints). Not sure why some here are bashing him. After Burrow his is potentially the next best QB
'mdc1 : QBs that can't move in today's NFL...Herbert is in that crowd'
H-E-R-B-E-R-T
Unlike the former Saints' QB Bobby, there is an extra R in Justin's family name.
Just tired of seeing it misspelled!
He had a great head of hair.
I don't care if he looked like Dan Marino in the Senior Bowl practices he's not going #1.
LOL
All this is pre-combine so I know a lot can change.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
I understand what you are saying but teams don't fall in love with a QB. They fall in love with a player. Just because there are 2 players that play the same position doesn't mean that they fit each organization the same. They have different styles. They throw with different arms. One is coming off an injury. One is coming off a disappointed year. And not that this would factor into my decision making but having Tua in Miami makes a ton of sense for their fan base. It is kind of like when the Rams took Goff over Wentz. Goff was a California kid that they wanted to put asses in the seats. Some teams value that.
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
That would be ideal, but if teams say look I have Tua and Herbert in the same tier and I have convictions about both players, Miami definitely would not trade up because they are guaranteed one at #5. Chargers and Panthers MIGHT be in play to block the other team, but Chargers know that if Carolina doesn't blow the Giants away they are likely to be fine at #6. I say that because Gettleman is not one who likes to trade down and I think the Mara family is going to be hesitant about trading with Carolina and giving Rhule/Brady a potential franchise QB after Rhule's antics in the coaching search.
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
Agreed, the only team to seemingly play that game was the Jets with their move up to 3 way before the draft started.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
Lou, they were not going to get much from Miami anyway, it is San Diego, Las Vegas, Carolina (others) where the gold would come from. Miami knows the Giants aren't taking a QB. You are right there would need to be another team or two looking QB for the Giants to get some nice additional picks.
Unusual year, I am actually feeling DG may say let's get extra picks and move back for an addtional late #1 or a #2 and #3.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
I don't see that at all. Herbert has a rocket arm who played in a more run-oriented offense, Gabbert was in a pass happy offense at Missouri, and he didn't throw lasers like Herbert did, not even close. Gabbert was also less of an athlete, much less of a threat with his legs.
This should help our trade down possibility value.
Dude has the goods. Rocket arm, he's 6'6", and move, smart on the radio there was a lot of people comparing him to Josh Allen.
Those kind of guys don't come along often.
I'm with you on that. If they do trade back, I want them more in the 5-7 range and maybe back to 9 if Jax blows their doors of with an offer, but no farther back than that.
Ideally they'd get a top 5 positional player talent even at 7 if two QB's go higher and if a team grabbed a third QB, they'd still be in play for what's left of Young, Okudah,Simmons, Jeudy, Lamb or the OT of their choice to go with the additional picks.
I'm still thinking they must get the D some help, and I want one of the top four D players in this draft but hope they could get him plus picks.
I agree, but I'd go to 12 with the Raiders for 12 & 18 and at least one of their #3s or get #1 or #2 for next year's draft.
There's whispers about Gruden not loving Carr.
I also think that there will be a trade market for Carr so the Raiders can recoup some of their draft loses.
Quote:
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
Eman you overlooked what I first wrote about DG: he likely "won't do that" re bluff. It's not his style, ND I think it gives him some credibility among the league's other front office folks.
The "can't bluff" part is a maybe add on to the 1st point that he won't bluff.
He doesn't view trades as a "boy did I hoodwink so and so" type of deal. Any pro would naturally seek out trades that are more likely "win win" for both partners.
Quote:
In comment 14790621 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
unless the Giants get a serious verified offer for slot four from one of the QB desirous teams below Miami.
Gettleman will not and probably cannot bluff that position.
So we should cool our expectations about even a potential swap with Miami until another clear suitor emerges.
How would Miami know if the Giants did get a serious offer from a team looking to jump the Dolphins? If as you say DG can't bluff that, how would Miami know if it were true or just a bluff?
Eman you overlooked what I first wrote about DG: he likely "won't do that" re bluff. It's not his style, ND I think it gives him some credibility among the league's other front office folks.
The "can't bluff" part is a maybe add on to the 1st point that he won't bluff.
He doesn't view trades as a "boy did I hoodwink so and so" type of deal. Any pro would naturally seek out trades that are more likely "win win" for both partners.
Gotcha Lou and yes I did miss that part.
I'm still interested in how you think Miami would know if the Giants had a serious trade offer though?
But that's speculation only.
Quote:
move back, it shouldn't be for a late first. They should be able to stay in the Top 10 and get an additional 2nd/3rd and a 1st next year
I agree, but I'd go to 12 with the Raiders for 12 & 18 and at least one of their #3s or get #1 or #2 for next year's draft.
I'd like to move down, but stay in the top 10. But I would consider moving to #12 for that pick, #18, and a third from Oakland. That would give us two firsts, a second, and two thirds, assuming we get a comp third for Collins. It would also take the sting out of the Williams trade.
Quote:
My only concern is that Washington stays at 2 and Detroit goes Defense at 3 leaving the Giants in a position where there are 2 QB's worthy of the #4 pick and you can't get a bidding war because Miami knows that no matter what they will get either Tua or Herbert at 5.
I don't think NFL teams play the either or game with regard to QBs. If you have a conviction, you go and get them.
Sometimes they do, or at least they appear to. When the Jets traded up to #3 two years ago, they appeared to be indicating that even if the Browns and Giants both went with QBs, which was a scenario that was far from unlikely at the time, they would be comfortable with whichever QB was left (or possibly taking Barkley themselves there).
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
But that's speculation only.
Ok, we're on the same page then. Picking up the phone and telling them as a courtesy is what I was wondering about.
My question was more along the lines of how would they know without DG telling them, and the courtesy line takes care of the bluffing part of my question.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
I think scouts very much take this into consideration. As for Burrow, of course his success wouldn't be as good with less talent around him but it wouldn't change the throws he makes, his footwork, his pre-snap adjustments, etc.
That's why Jones is a fascinating case study. His support cast was awful, and despite that, he displayed some pretty important NFL caliber traits.
NYG just needs one team to trade up to #2 or # for a QB, and we'll get one of the blue chips from OSU.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
To be fair, Oregon had one of the best offensive lines in the country, and a darn good running game.
On the flip side of that, their receiver situation left a bit to be desired, and Oregon didn't exactly play a bunch of patsies this year, they had a tough schedule.
Quote:
there is not more attention paid to supporting talent and coaching when they rank the QB's. Look at the NFL and how important it is.
Tua: Two WR's and a OL that are in the Top 15 draft prospects. Then a staple of backs and a third WR who will be drafted high when he comes out.
Burrow: Skill players all over and a Very Good OL. Then the big question is how much did the scheme by a first year coordinator help? Think he would have the same success if teams had a offseason to prepare?
I think scouts very much take this into consideration. As for Burrow, of course his success wouldn't be as good with less talent around him but it wouldn't change the throws he makes, his footwork, his pre-snap adjustments, etc.
That's why Jones is a fascinating case study. His support cast was awful, and despite that, he displayed some pretty important NFL caliber traits.
Yes the scouts take into account. I just think the combine post college practices/games and indiv workouts can tell quite a bit. This is why some QB's will fly up the board imo.