Hey guys-
I am knee deep in writing my final reports now / updating stacks. I will be sharing what I can in April. Will try to address a few things I have seen asked/discussed that I haven't had time to get to in addition to some thoughts I have had circulate in relation to NYG as I get the work done.
-I think NYG needs to go defense @4 if they stay put. There are is chance someone makes a move up for a QB but there are countless variables that can make our heads spin there. So I just stick with NYG staying at 4. They need a defensive playmaker or 2 this offseason. I can see them spending big at CB or EDGE...and going with Simmons or Okudah at #4.
-One negative on Simmons - he would have to play a similar role to Peppers. Can you get both those guys on the field without compromising interior run defense or deep coverage? You don't want Peppers playing the CF role - you don't want Simmons playing an ILB role. Also consider Julian Love earned some snaps in my opinion. I you view Simmons as a LB/S hybrid - it may be hard to have Peppers or Love out there - let alone all 3 together.
-The OL can be addressed in round 2. There will be a quality OT or OC there, both spots I think NYG needs to address. Maybe one can be done in FA? Not sure I see the value there though, we will see if anyone gets cut due to money reasons though.
-NYG can consider OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.
-This WR class is historic. NYG could use another young pass catcher to develop and contribute on a part time basis in 2020, preferably one with size. Because of the supply, they may get a day 2 grade in round 4 or 5 like they did with Slayton. Be patient - someone will be there day 3.
-In terms of looking outside the box - how about looking for one of these TEs? This is a sneaky-solid group that will present value day 2 / early day 3. "NYG has bigger needs" I know - but consider the idea FA can fill some of them AND if NYG truly wants to plan around Barkley without compromising the passing game too much - a 2 TE offense can be a thing here especially if Engram is one of them, a guy that can pass as a WR.
I am around the next 2 hours if any questions want to be asked. I will get to them.
And that the Giants and their scouts, have been absolutely terrible at evaluating and grading OL correctly, for the past decade or so.
And that the Giants and their scouts, have been absolutely terrible at evaluating and grading OL correctly, for the past decade or so.
Cane - you were an early in on Simmons, right? I thought I remember reading a post where you were a big fan. So I decided to watch him more closely this year. Hoping, of course, you were wrong... ;)
Seriously, there is a big tool box there if he gets with the right organization with smart coaching.
Not enough to give a credible opinion yet.
FWIW, I can see where Peppers and Simmons are suited for the same position. However Peppers is 5'11 215 lbs(maybe) and Simmons is 6'4 235 lbs(but a slender build). I see Simmons as a play maker, and his coverage against TEs may be better than Peppers. Is there any chance that Simmons could gain strength to play ILB? He does get washed out inside on runs and that is the only reason he would have a hard time playing ILB. Of course gaining strength(and weight) would likely cause a drop in his speed.
Or conversely, could he drop weight and play as a true FS? There is so much play maker in him it is hard to pass up, but where does he fit for 3 downs?
That is the difficult question. No matter what - I don't see Simmons ever being a solid ILB strictly. He can gain all the weight in the world, I just don't see the style fit.
Can he move to FS? Again that position is incredibly hard to fill and it would be a detriment to Simmons to pin him at one spot.
Like I said, the idea of drafting Simmons needs to come with a specific plan on how to use him.
My top ILB in the draft and a potential top 10 overall player on my board. I am higher on him than most.
If he runs well - I am going to put the Patrick Willis label on him.
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In comment 14791436 aGiantGuy said:
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Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better?
Intelligence is trait #1 you want out of OC. But yes I want a guy that can anchor too. I do prefer movement over power though - I am fine with bth Cushenberry and Hennessey. Intrigued by Harris too.
What about Biadasz?
I think he can be a starter in the right scheme. His athletic ability leaves lot to the desired though. There is some ugly, ugly tape on him.
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Thank for all the work. What are your thoughts on Kenneth Murray?
My top ILB in the draft and a potential top 10 overall player on my board. I am higher on him than most.
If he runs well - I am going to put the Patrick Willis label on him.
Whoa he said like Keanu Reeves. That's one hell of a high bar, Sy.
good player. I think you keep away from hybrid/combo types at that spot.
In the middle of the first round, that would be different.
I could see a CB, also a LT.
If Simmons can test well and gets heavier, why couldn't he be inside roaming the field?
Ok that's fair.
I just see size and how it isn't a problem for Deion Jones and Kwon Alexander. Being soft isn't a stat but it can limit what a player can/cannot do. I see your argument though.
Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. It’s basically me, you and one more poster who I can’t remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. That’s all. He’s too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane he’s useless and the tape shows that.
If I’m an OC and I see simmons as the linebacker against 11 personnel I would tell my qb to audible to a run every single time and run right at him. He will not hold up and he’ll be forced off the field.
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physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.
Ok that's fair.
I just see size and how it isn't a problem for Deion Jones and Kwon Alexander. Being soft isn't a stat but it can limit what a player can/cannot do. I see your argument though.
Size isn't as simple as roster listings tho. Not all players at 230 lbs are created equally physically in the sense of playing with physicality, explosion, tackling ability, and power. There's zero power in IS' game at the college level, that doesn't bode well for the NFL level if you want to deploy him in the front seven.
For example, when I played SS years ago at 195 lbs I could physically outmatch many guys who played 30+ lbs heavier than me. It had to do with how I was built, how my body generated power, ball carriers would hit the ground with a thud when I hit them. It carried over into baseball where I was hitting 450 foot homers whereas the bigger guys on the team couldn't touch 400. Some athletes generate much more power than others at the same body weight.
;)
The LB model in the NFL has evolved more towards speed, but dammit you still need the animal to play LB in the NFL. When was the last time we had the animal? That's probably the last time our LB unit was effective ...
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physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.
Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. It’s basically me, you and one more poster who I can’t remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. That’s all. He’s too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane he’s useless and the tape shows that.
You can add me to the list. I don't want him at #4. Love his sideline to sideline speed, pursuit ability, and ability to drop into coverage. But he won't hold up against the run, and will often need a lane to get home when rushing. He also has a thin lower body. He'll need to switch to S in the NFL IMO. I'd rather not take a position switcher at #4.
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With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?
Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.
Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?
For the same reason we traded with Tennessee years ago to get Shockey (moved up 1 spot), because we were afraid someone else would jump us.
Outside of Okudah, the prospects with the least issues are WRs and DTs (I think Kinlaw is terrific). However the draft is insanely deep at WR and are the Giants really going to draft another DT if LW is still in the fold after the FA period? Where I disagree with Sy is I think at least 3 OTs are worthy of top 10 picks despite whatever flaws appear in their games at this point. Choosing them wouldn't be like reaching for Ereck Flowers simply because I never thought Ereck Flowers was good to begin with. I just decided to go with "In Jerry We Trust". Wirfs, Wills, and Becton (my order) are really good prospects IMO and I think there's a significant gap between them and others who could be drafted later.
Yes I was in on Simmons and on Beckton, I think IF he shows he can pass the standard knee bend test and pass the background test (Satterfield speaks highly of him) that he and Simmons are gonna be near the top of Gettleman and Judge's list.
This is a great post that sums up today's NFL. Simmons if used correctly would have great value to an NFL team. I'd love him or Okudah but prefer the dominant shutdown upside of an LT like Mekhi Becton over them all. He would have the dual effect of greatly improving the run and pass game.
Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.
The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
There are many more QB needy teams in the top 14 of the Draft this year which both increases pressure to deal and lowers the cost. The situations aren't comparable.
Just sayin.
I think there are arguments both ways in this. But your point is valid. It just takes one team. If Tua goes 3, teams 5 6 and 7 all want QB. It only takes one.
Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.
The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
For example if I was the Giants I'd be seriously coveting OL in this Draft but I don't love the value at #4. If I were offered a 2nd to move off #4 and stay in the Top 9 I'd do it in a heartbeat. Of course this is all hypothetical but the past clearly shows it's well within the realm of plausibility.
Wentz is one example of many. No one had ever heard of him six weeks before the Draft. The Eagles gave up a 3rd and 4th that year, a 1st the following year and a 2nd the year after that to move from #8 to #2. There are many more examples such as the Bob trade by the Skins.
Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.
The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
SS Peppers
FS Love
CB Okundah
CB Baker
CB Beal
CB Ballentine
These are the guys that can be difference makers as starters, nickel and dime backs. Its a passing league.
Excellent analysis. It does seem unlikely anyone will move up for Herbert at this point. Miami also knows that we aren't taking a QB. Other teams like San Diego probably won't want to pay the draft capital to move up to #4 just to get ahead of Miami so they can draft Herbert.
But there still may be an opportunity to trade down. We're assuming that a team only wants to trade up for a QB. Perhaps a team would trade up for Brown or Okudah.
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Hi Torrag: To be honest I am not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with anything. He did go way earlier than just about anybody predicted but nobody traded up for him. I am also not saying somebody won't fall in love with Herbert (or as a I suggested in another thread Jordan Love who we are hearing a lot of teams actually like more) and nobody would be happier than me. Heck I've been following Giants drafts since 1970 and I'm still waiting/hoping for the Giants to make that really dramatic move. FTR I'm still waiting. However, I am a realist and its just not that likely, at least not at this time. As I said right now we are hearing for both Herbert and Love is that they had solid Senior Bowls, but that their performances only cemented first-round grades. Nobody's talking about them as top 5-10 guys. Indeed, just ask yourself: would you trade a #1 or even a #2 to more up to take a QB like Herbert who has more warts than your everyday frog!
Excellent analysis. It does seem unlikely anyone will move up for Herbert at this point. Miami also knows that we aren't taking a QB. Other teams like San Diego probably won't want to pay the draft capital to move up to #4 just to get ahead of Miami so they can draft Herbert.
But there still may be an opportunity to trade down. We're assuming that a team only wants to trade up for a QB. Perhaps a team would trade up for Brown or Okudah.
Maybe not for Herbert but if Burrow, Young and Okudah go 1-3, and Tua is available at 4, SD might want to make that jump and Miami might as well to keep from getting jumped.
As others have said its still really early and a lot is going to happen between now and draft day but it's not out of the question Tua is there at 4 and gets DG's phone ringing.
I'd be curious to see Sy's analysis on Cephus in this regard.
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In comment 14791437 Nine-Tails said:
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Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. That’s one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, he’s great. We just have so many needs at other areas.
No, I do not see Gettleman going there.
I might go there if Leonard Williams wasn't in the picture.
He might not be by Draft Day. Wonder if that is a consideration if Brown is in their first row.
Leaning more towards Colin's take because Herbert and Love seem to come with a lot more warts than Jones did. Jones really didn't show accuracy or intangible issues in college it was more just not great numbers due to a horrible surrounding cast. Herbert and Love's issues seem to go beyond that. Josh Allen with all his elite measurables arm, height, speed etc still went 7 because you could see bad decision making process and very sporadic accuracy. You didn't see those kind of flags with Jones as much, what you saw was sometimes a lack of awareness of the peripheral rush (off the edges) and clock in his head occasionally. Much smaller overall issues/flags than many of the others.
With all that said, it just takes one team to fall in love with the tools that both Herbert and Love have to work with and we happen to have 3 teams in a row right behind us who all need the all important QB.
-The OL can be addressed in round 2. There will be a quality OT or OC there, both spots I think NYG needs to address. Maybe one can be done in FA? Not sure I see the value there though, we will see if anyone gets cut due to money reasons though.
-NYG can consider OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.
I think Becton has so many elite tools to work with (Huge frame , big powerful bulk but not sloppy bulk, extremely long arms, nasty streak, very good feet for his size) and from all accounts a decent football IQ and work ethic that he will realize his talent. Very different than Flowers and how badly we missed on evaluation of him with Ross/Reese.
No doubt we can get some plug and play guys in the 2nd round but much less likely a dominant LT (the most important position on the line and probably our biggest need).
I'm going on record right now Herbert won't get out of the Top 7 picks and could go Top 5.
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In comment 14792762 JonC said:
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physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.
Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. It’s basically me, you and one more poster who I can’t remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. That’s all. He’s too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane he’s useless and the tape shows that.
You can add me to the list. I don't want him at #4. Love his sideline to sideline speed, pursuit ability, and ability to drop into coverage. But he won't hold up against the run, and will often need a lane to get home when rushing. He also has a thin lower body. He'll need to switch to S in the NFL IMO. I'd rather not take a position switcher at #4.
Me too, I don't want him at #4. If Sy has a top 10 grade on the ILB Murray I'd take a long look at him though
Peppers has shown nothing consistently in the NFL that should make even one person believe he could be an outstanding NFL player.
I'd sign right now for him being a solid NFL player, because to this point his resume is one of average at best.
Everyone makes excuses for him. That he's playing out of position or the talent around him sucks or the coaching sucks.
Hopefully he gets better as a player but to this point he's shown nothing to make me believe he can be a good player.