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Quick update on big picture NYG Draft outlook

Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:06 pm
Hey guys-

I am knee deep in writing my final reports now / updating stacks. I will be sharing what I can in April. Will try to address a few things I have seen asked/discussed that I haven't had time to get to in addition to some thoughts I have had circulate in relation to NYG as I get the work done.

-I think NYG needs to go defense @4 if they stay put. There are is chance someone makes a move up for a QB but there are countless variables that can make our heads spin there. So I just stick with NYG staying at 4. They need a defensive playmaker or 2 this offseason. I can see them spending big at CB or EDGE...and going with Simmons or Okudah at #4.

-One negative on Simmons - he would have to play a similar role to Peppers. Can you get both those guys on the field without compromising interior run defense or deep coverage? You don't want Peppers playing the CF role - you don't want Simmons playing an ILB role. Also consider Julian Love earned some snaps in my opinion. I you view Simmons as a LB/S hybrid - it may be hard to have Peppers or Love out there - let alone all 3 together.

-The OL can be addressed in round 2. There will be a quality OT or OC there, both spots I think NYG needs to address. Maybe one can be done in FA? Not sure I see the value there though, we will see if anyone gets cut due to money reasons though.

-NYG can consider OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.

-This WR class is historic. NYG could use another young pass catcher to develop and contribute on a part time basis in 2020, preferably one with size. Because of the supply, they may get a day 2 grade in round 4 or 5 like they did with Slayton. Be patient - someone will be there day 3.

-In terms of looking outside the box - how about looking for one of these TEs? This is a sneaky-solid group that will present value day 2 / early day 3. "NYG has bigger needs" I know - but consider the idea FA can fill some of them AND if NYG truly wants to plan around Barkley without compromising the passing game too much - a 2 TE offense can be a thing here especially if Engram is one of them, a guy that can pass as a WR.

I am around the next 2 hours if any questions want to be asked. I will get to them.
Ok got one - what do you make of Andrew Thomasí  
cosmicj : 1/23/2020 6:09 pm : link
Personality and work ethic? Heís obviously tremendously physically gifted but has technical lapses. Are those lapses and the draft rating downgrade offset by smarts and a desire to learn?
I dont think the Giants will go Edge @ #4  
blueblood : 1/23/2020 6:10 pm : link
simply because I dont think anyone will be there worth the #4..


So what about round 2.. who are the second tier edge guys who might get a look..

Thanks, Sy.  
Klaatu : 1/23/2020 6:11 pm : link
Looking forward to your write-ups, as always.
I am with you on the core statement at 4  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/23/2020 6:12 pm : link
it's got to be defense!!!!
RE: Ok got one - what do you make of Andrew Thomasí  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14791335 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Personality and work ethic? Heís obviously tremendously physically gifted but has technical lapses. Are those lapses and the draft rating downgrade offset by smarts and a desire to learn?


I idon't have much on the character / maturity / work ethic. Not yet anyway.

His inconsistency is frustrating, for sure.

Andrew Thomas at his best is better than any other OT at their best. At the very least he is a plus run blocker right away.
Mekhi Becton  
widmerseyebrow : 1/23/2020 6:16 pm : link
Has been brought up a lot here as of late. Where should he be going in the draft? Should the Giants be interested?
Glad you mentioned TE's. I started a thread about them the other day.  
Klaatu : 1/23/2020 6:16 pm : link
So, how about a quick take on Brycen Hopkins and Albert Okwuegbunam?
Looking forward to your writeup Sy  
Earl the goat : 1/23/2020 6:17 pm : link
But you can let the cat out of the bag early
I know Mekhi Becton is your top rated OT
RE: I dont think the Giants will go Edge @ #4  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14791337 blueblood said:
Quote:
simply because I dont think anyone will be there worth the #4..


So what about round 2.. who are the second tier edge guys who might get a look..


Few names:

Chaisson / LSU
Gross Matos / Penn State
Lewis / Alabama
Baun / Wisconsin
Greenard / Florida
Very sound post!!  
ColHowPepper : 1/23/2020 6:18 pm : link
And I second and third the notion of TE in middle rounds.
EE is not a TE, never mind he cannot stay on the field.
Look at all the TEs in the NFC alone who were drafted 4th, 5th and are stellar.

Kadin is a good start, maybe Conrad for depth, but next to the voids and failures at OL and LBs, TE is vying for 3rd worst position drafting/planning (on both sides of the ball).
Thanks for the insight  
OBJRoyal : 1/23/2020 6:19 pm : link
Great points addressed. No doubt the Giants need playmakers on defense and along the OL. Get a huge upgrade at C and LB and that's a big start
Hoping for a trade down  
Nine-Tails : 1/23/2020 6:20 pm : link
As Sy said the wr and of class are deep, but probably in the organizations best interest to not go that route at pick four. IF we can trade back but still remain in the top ten. We can add a defender and use the extra picks to take advantage of the depth at wr and ot.
good stuff Sy - question for you on RB's  
Eric on Li : 1/23/2020 6:23 pm : link
is there a day 3 guy you like as a change of pace type? Sort of like this year's version of Travis Homer.
Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
George from PA : 1/23/2020 6:24 pm : link
With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.
Yes!  
beatrixkiddo : 1/23/2020 6:25 pm : link
Sy a big thank you as this is my favorite time of year on BBI, and your contributions on the draft are such a boost to the content of these threads.

Not knowing much about Simmons or Okudah what are your projections on them as pros, what current players are they most similar to in reaching that kind of potential? thanks!
Sy  
Professor Falken : 1/23/2020 6:28 pm : link
Gonna give you the Joe Judge test on Simmons. Don't tell me what he can't do. Tell me what he can do and how he could be a difference maker for the Giants, worthy of the #4 pick.

Thanks!
Derrick Brown DT Auburn  
Mark in ATL : 1/23/2020 6:29 pm : link
Sy - If you did a ranking of defensive players in the draft irrespective of position where would you rank Brown? Three or four?
Sy - Paul Alexander has had some good things to say..  
Racer : 1/23/2020 6:33 pm : link
..about the OLinemen during Senior Bowl practice, in particular Josh Jones.

Who should we be watching on the oline during the game?

Thanks.
At a minimum they need both a  
Reb8thVA : 1/23/2020 6:33 pm : link
Center and. Tackle. Going defense in the first without trading down complicates that given our 3rd round pick is closer to an early fourth.
Im 100% on board SY  
twostepgiants : 1/23/2020 6:34 pm : link
Defense af 4 and OL at top of round 2. Im thinking a C there

What OL would you target at top of rd 2?

Id there anyone you might move up for into the 1st?
Sy...Funny the comparison of Simmons to Peppers!  
edavisiii : 1/23/2020 6:35 pm : link
I was thinking about the Beckham trade and the fact that no one thought Cleveland would be a bad as they were and the Giants might have been better off asking for the 2020 #1!
We could have gotten Simmons at 4 and an OL at 10 and might have been better off. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

2 questions, supposed they get a Defesive Player at 4 and a center at 36, would Matthew Peart from UConn be a good option with the comp 3rd or high 4th????

Also, one of my friends is the D Coordinator at Bishop Hendricken HS in RI. He coached KWITY PAYE in HS and has always said he is a great kid. They have a few kid playing D1 and a bunch more in D2 an D3 but Kwitty has always been a favorite of the staff because of the person he is. Any early thoughts on how he is being viewed. I was involved in RI HS football as an assistant for 6 years and I am always pulling for our kids!

Great to see you checking in....Thanks Ed

Hi Sy  
Jay in Toronto : 1/23/2020 6:38 pm : link
I am a Badger Fan.

When you do your evaluations, I am wondering why Chris Orr is getting so little love and whether Quintez Cephus could be good value for us as a WR.

TIA
RE: Mekhi Becton  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:40 pm : link
In comment 14791344 widmerseyebrow said:
Quote:
Has been brought up a lot here as of late. Where should he be going in the draft? Should the Giants be interested?


Interested? Absolutely. 1st round grade and has some of the most dominant tape I have seen from OT in years.

There are consistency issues and I think they will need to get some 1 on 1 visits with him. He is sloppy - and one red flag is that he got worse as the year went. He opened the year with quality technique but by the end of the year he got really sloppy. Maybe he got too caught up in to his pancake-block highlight reel? That won't work in the NFL

Question is...will he work on technique? And keep working on it. And then keep working on it.
RE: Glad you mentioned TE's. I started a thread about them the other day.  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14791346 Klaatu said:
Quote:
So, how about a quick take on Brycen Hopkins and Albert Okwuegbunam?


Hopkins is crafty and a sure hands catcher. I think he is a tad small and won't make a big difference in the trenches. Solid player that can be moved around. Smart, plays hard.
Zack Baun  
Jay in Toronto : 1/23/2020 6:42 pm : link
Has been rising. Do you see him as a 'true' ER?
RE: good stuff Sy - question for you on RB's  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:44 pm : link
In comment 14791359 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
is there a day 3 guy you like as a change of pace type? Sort of like this year's version of Travis Homer.



There always are nice change of pace, accessory type RBs late. Question is - can they and will they block?

I love McFarland from Maryland but I think he goes a little earlier then where NYG will look RB. Reggie Corbin is interesting to me - a small but sneaky powerful and quick kid with good hands reminds me a bit of Tiki. Also like JJ Taylor from Arizona.

Why not a power back? Give Barkley a rest on short yardage to keep him safer and allow him to be the guy to catch the ball? Similar to how CAR spells McCaffrey.

Bennie LeMay from Charlotte is a nice power guy as is AJ Dillon from BC and Olinolua from TCU (has a drug arrest though).
RE: Yes!  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:47 pm : link
In comment 14791363 beatrixkiddo said:
Quote:
Sy a big thank you as this is my favorite time of year on BBI, and your contributions on the draft are such a boost to the content of these threads.

Not knowing much about Simmons or Okudah what are your projections on them as pros, what current players are they most similar to in reaching that kind of potential? thanks!


Simmons is one of the more unique players I have scouted. I see some Derwin James in him actually, the LAC safety. You have to be really creative with him though because his one red flag is playing through traffic as a traditional LB. He is just another guy in that role.

Okudah - I don't want to get ahead of myself because I still have some work to do there but I see some Patrick Peterson when it comes to versatility and competitiveness. He can be an island guy - something I don't say often.

Would the FO use 1st round pick on CB 2 years in a row? I don't know.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:48 pm : link
In comment 14791366 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
Gonna give you the Joe Judge test on Simmons. Don't tell me what he can't do. Tell me what he can do and how he could be a difference maker for the Giants, worthy of the #4 pick.

Thanks!


Cover TEs (a major NYG defensive issue for years)
Rush the passer from all angles (don't we miss those days?)
Pursues hard and is always around the ball
Smart and instinctive - reactions are on point
Makes plays
RE: Derrick Brown DT Auburn  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:49 pm : link
In comment 14791368 Mark in ATL said:
Quote:
Sy - If you did a ranking of defensive players in the draft irrespective of position where would you rank Brown? Three or four?


Brown is tied for #3 defensive player in this draft for me
Sy  
armstead98 : 1/23/2020 6:51 pm : link
How are your top 3 players on defense after chase young?
RE: Sy - Paul Alexander has had some good things to say..  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:51 pm : link
In comment 14791374 Racer said:
Quote:
..about the OLinemen during Senior Bowl practice, in particular Josh Jones.

Who should we be watching on the oline during the game?

Thanks.


Jones is a long term upside guy - don't think he is a 2020 guy.

OC Cushenberry is intersting, as are fellow OCs Hennessey and Harris.

OG Jonah Jackson is a versatile interior backup with starter potential down the road.

The D III kid Bartch made me a believer this week. Really solid but not sure he can play OT.
RE: Sy...Funny the comparison of Simmons to Peppers!  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:53 pm : link
In comment 14791380 edavisiii said:
Quote:
I was thinking about the Beckham trade and the fact that no one thought Cleveland would be a bad as they were and the Giants might have been better off asking for the 2020 #1!
We could have gotten Simmons at 4 and an OL at 10 and might have been better off. Oh well, hindsight is 20/20.

2 questions, supposed they get a Defesive Player at 4 and a center at 36, would Matthew Peart from UConn be a good option with the comp 3rd or high 4th????

Also, one of my friends is the D Coordinator at Bishop Hendricken HS in RI. He coached KWITY PAYE in HS and has always said he is a great kid. They have a few kid playing D1 and a bunch more in D2 an D3 but Kwitty has always been a favorite of the staff because of the person he is. Any early thoughts on how he is being viewed. I was involved in RI HS football as an assistant for 6 years and I am always pulling for our kids!

Great to see you checking in....Thanks Ed


I'm not high on Peart. Too much waist bending - feet aren't there. Having a hard time in Sr Bowl practice.
RE: Hi Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14791384 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
I am a Badger Fan.

When you do your evaluations, I am wondering why Chris Orr is getting so little love and whether Quintez Cephus could be good value for us as a WR.

TIA


Orr is a thumper and special teamer. A good one. But the demand for them isn't what is used to be. EVERYONE is looking for LBs that can cover...or at the very least run. Orr is below average in both.

Cephus I still have to do work on.
RE: Zack Baun  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14791388 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
Has been rising. Do you see him as a 'true' ER?


I prefer him off ball with some 3rd down rushing potential. I don't want him on line every down.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 6:56 pm : link
In comment 14791402 armstead98 said:
Quote:
How are your top 3 players on defense after chase young?


CB Okudah
LB Simmons
DT Brown
"The OL can be addressed in round 2.  
BillT : 1/23/2020 6:57 pm : link
There will be a quality OT or OC there,"

Only one problem with this. We don't need "a quality OT or OC" We need two a quality OT and a quality OC. Unless we're signing a bunch of OL in FA this won't do.
Lots of talent...  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 6:57 pm : link
on that Utah team this year.

Thoughts on their DE Anae and their corner Johnson?

It's not a need, but would be curious to hear your thoughts on Jordan Love, too...
Thanks Sy!  
ChathamMark : 1/23/2020 7:05 pm : link
Always look forward to your posts.
RE:  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 7:06 pm : link
In comment 14791418 BillT said:
Quote:
There will be a quality OT or OC there,"

Only one problem with this. We don't need "a quality OT or OC" We need two a quality OT and a quality OC. Unless we're signing a bunch of OL in FA this won't do.


Can't fill 3 holes with one pick

FA needs to address a few of the roster issues.
RE: Lots of talent...  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 7:07 pm : link
In comment 14791419 bw in dc said:
Quote:
on that Utah team this year.

Thoughts on their DE Anae and their corner Johnson?

It's not a need, but would be curious to hear your thoughts on Jordan Love, too...


Anae is a try-hard guy that lacks top end talent. He can be a solid rotational player but I wouldn't want him as my feature guy.

Johnson has the size/speed that the NFL loves at the position. Good ball skills - some reading issues and will bail too early. Correctable. Potential 1st round grade that will be there day 2.

Love is the highest upside passer in the class - including Burrow. But there is a lot that will need to happen and progress if he will reach the ceiling.
Tryna find a good center  
aGiantGuy : 1/23/2020 7:16 pm : link
Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better?
Sy regarding Derrick Brown  
Nine-Tails : 1/23/2020 7:16 pm : link
Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. Thatís one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, heís great. We just have so many needs at other areas.
I probably saw...  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 7:19 pm : link
parts of three Utah games and I swear Anae was always making something happen. If he wasn't sacking the QB he was getting damn close.

I like those high effort guys. Has Patriot written all over him.

I really liked Love coming into the year but he really took a step back. I was pumped to see him in the LSU game. And I know USU was outclassed against LSU talent-wise, but Love's play was uninspiring...

RE: Tryna find a good center  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 7:21 pm : link
In comment 14791436 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better?


Intelligence is trait #1 you want out of OC. But yes I want a guy that can anchor too. I do prefer movement over power though - I am fine with bth Cushenberry and Hennessey. Intrigued by Harris too.
RE: Sy regarding Derrick Brown  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14791437 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. Thatís one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, heís great. We just have so many needs at other areas.


No, I do not see Gettleman going there.
While I really want a top OT prospect in round 1  
Jay on the Island : 1/23/2020 7:22 pm : link
I don't think the Giants can pass on a talent like Simmons. Luckily for the Giants this draft is very deep at OT and they can grab a good one in round 2.
ILB  
Mark in ATL : 1/23/2020 7:32 pm : link
Whatís your opinion on Murray the ILB from Oklahoma and who do you like at that position?
RE: ILB  
Sy'56 : 1/23/2020 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14791452 Mark in ATL said:
Quote:
Whatís your opinion on Murray the ILB from Oklahoma and who do you like at that position?


I love Murray. He is my LB1 outside of Simmons. I have a higher grade on him than anyone I have spoken with.
Sy, how do you see the inside linebackers this year?  
buddyryansux10 : 1/23/2020 7:34 pm : link
Any day 2 guys to keep an eye on? Thinking perhaps the kid from Oregon. Thanks much as always!
Also you mentioned good day 2 OTs,  
buddyryansux10 : 1/23/2020 7:46 pm : link
Are there a few names you could possibly share who would be available? Thank you!
RE: RE: Mekhi Becton  
Pheonix Orion : 1/23/2020 7:49 pm : link
In comment 14791386 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791344 widmerseyebrow said:


Quote:


Has been brought up a lot here as of late. Where should he be going in the draft? Should the Giants be interested?



Interested? Absolutely. 1st round grade and has some of the most dominant tape I have seen from OT in years.

There are consistency issues and I think they will need to get some 1 on 1 visits with him. He is sloppy - and one red flag is that he got worse as the year went. He opened the year with quality technique but by the end of the year he got really sloppy. Maybe he got too caught up in to his pancake-block highlight reel? That won't work in the NFL

Question is...will he work on technique? And keep working on it. And then keep working on it.


I think him being most dominant OT many including SY have seen in years is a huge compliment . That upside is crazy and I think the character stuff is very good too . I take him over the field and we have a mammoth stud LT to protect DJ (who currently struggles with edge pressure awareness) and to open up holes for Barkley for the next 10 years .

Columbo is here to coach them up now!
Thanks Sy!  
DonnieD89 : 1/23/2020 7:51 pm : link
The Giants have not had very good big wide receiver, since Plax. How do you project Michael Pittman, Jr. going into the pros? Where do you see him going, and do you think the Giants will seriously consider him?
Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
BobR in Durham : 1/23/2020 7:51 pm : link
But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.
RE: Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
Pheonix Orion : 1/23/2020 8:04 pm : link
In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:
Quote:
But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.


Gettleman came in and aaid fixing the OL is priority 1. They gonna watch the tape and they gonna say we need an LT (hopefully Mekhi).

Slight tradedown and then an LT? That would be amazing.
RE: Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
Klaatu : 1/23/2020 8:22 pm : link
In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:
Quote:
But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.


I agree, but you can't force the pick, either. That's how you end up with Flowers and Pugh.
RE: RE: Sy regarding Derrick Brown  
Klaatu : 1/23/2020 8:25 pm : link
In comment 14791443 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791437 Nine-Tails said:


Quote:


Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. Thatís one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, heís great. We just have so many needs at other areas.



No, I do not see Gettleman going there.


I might go there if Leonard Williams wasn't in the picture.
Thoughts on LBer Josh Uche?  
RomanWH : 1/23/2020 8:36 pm : link
He's a guy at the Senior Bowl that Pat Kirwan was talking up the other day. Slightly undersized at 6'2" 241lb, but he's a guy who did a bit of everything at UMich. Versatile... A Swiss army knife. Perfect when you hear Joe Judge talk about being multiple.
Also  
aGiantGuy : 1/23/2020 8:54 pm : link
Micah Parsons, do you like his game, is he a fit for ILB in our scheme? And what round do you see him going in?
RE: Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
Reb8thVA : 1/23/2020 9:00 pm : link
In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:
Quote:
But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.


Exactly
Micah Parsons is a Soph  
Bill in TN : 1/23/2020 9:10 pm : link
at Penn State. Not in this draft. Wait til next year.
Waiting for Sy56 to surface from his reports. If Simmons is added,  
Ivan15 : 1/23/2020 9:57 pm : link
Do you think the 3-Safety look becomes the base defense?
RE: RE: Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
GFAN52 : 1/23/2020 10:01 pm : link
In comment 14791522 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:


Quote:


But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.



Exactly


Agree as well. Need to protect Jones and make Barkley's career last.
I want Conklin in FA to play RT and in the draft I want an OT in  
Optimus-NY : 1/23/2020 10:10 pm : link
the first Round (Becton at 6 after a slight trade down with the LAC and acquire another 2nd). After that, gimmee Cushenberry to man the pivot in Round 2. 3 new starters there. Away we go. Replace Zeitler via the draft in the next year or two as well at RG, but not yet.

This team is in DESPERATE need of an influx of premium young talent at the LOS. They're pretty good at DL believe it or not. The LBs need a lot of work of course, but the OL is in desperate need of being replenished talent-wise.
RE: Yes we do need playmakers on defense  
Optimus-NY : 1/23/2020 10:12 pm : link
In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:
Quote:
But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.


+1 million. Thank you
Thanks Sy  
Ned In Atlanta : 1/23/2020 10:25 pm : link
Reading your stuff makes the off season way more enjoyable.

Your comment about the historic WR class makes the horrible LW trade sting every more. 3.4 could potentially be a sweet spot for a WR. Shepard is another concussion away from retirement and Tate is old. Wr is a bigger need than most people think IMO

Interesting re: your concern about Simmonsí fit. After reading your post, absent a trade down (which is my desired outcome) I really think Okudah should be the pick. In spite of the investment made last year, CB is thin. Baker is a question mark and only other young guys behind him.
RE: Micah Parsons is a Soph  
aGiantGuy : 1/23/2020 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14791528 Bill in TN said:
Quote:
at Penn State. Not in this draft. Wait til next year.


F-ck! We got spoiled with depth last draft
RE: Thanks Sy  
Pheonix Orion : 1/24/2020 2:48 am : link
In comment 14791609 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
Reading your stuff makes the off season way more enjoyable.

Your comment about the historic WR class makes the horrible LW trade sting every more. 3.4 could potentially be a sweet spot for a WR. Shepard is another concussion away from retirement and Tate is old. Wr is a bigger need than most people think IMO

Interesting re: your concern about Simmonsí fit. After reading your post, absent a trade down (which is my desired outcome) I really think Okudah should be the pick. In spite of the investment made last year, CB is thin. Baker is a question mark and only other young guys behind him.


Free agency is also fairly deep at CB. Secondary is extremely young with JJ gone and Bethea likely next. We just spent 3 picks last year on secondary including a 1st rounder. 3rd rd supplement pick in Beal the year before. Love Okudah but think we go vet here for the other starting CB.

RE: I want Conklin in FA to play RT and in the draft I want an OT in  
Pheonix Orion : 1/24/2020 2:53 am : link
In comment 14791590 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
the first Round (Becton at 6 after a slight trade down with the LAC and acquire another 2nd). After that, gimmee Cushenberry to man the pivot in Round 2. 3 new starters there. Away we go. Replace Zeitler via the draft in the next year or two as well at RG, but not yet.

This team is in DESPERATE need of an influx of premium young talent at the LOS. They're pretty good at DL believe it or not. The LBs need a lot of work of course, but the OL is in desperate need of being replenished talent-wise.


That would be pretty ridiculous. Then plug Gates in at Center (or at least try him there). He actually got snaps at 3rd string as a rookie and apparently showed promise there.

When Cush is ready he takes over. Gates can be the ultimate swing guy who plays anywhere (like a Diehl or Seubert )

Becton/Solder-Hernendez-Gates/Cush- Zietler- Conklin/Gates
RE: Thanks Sy!  
Sy'56 : 1/24/2020 4:22 am : link
In comment 14791463 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
The Giants have not had very good big wide receiver, since Plax. How do you project Michael Pittman, Jr. going into the pros? Where do you see him going, and do you think the Giants will seriously consider him?


League is going to love him. I have a 2/3 round garden him - but I think in the crowded WR class someone can get a value on him. Physical guy with plus routes and ball skills
RE: RE: Yes!  
SGMen : 1/24/2020 6:18 am : link
In comment 14791394 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791363 beatrixkiddo said:


Quote:


Sy a big thank you as this is my favorite time of year on BBI, and your contributions on the draft are such a boost to the content of these threads.

Not knowing much about Simmons or Okudah what are your projections on them as pros, what current players are they most similar to in reaching that kind of potential? thanks!



Simmons is one of the more unique players I have scouted. I see some Derwin James in him actually, the LAC safety. You have to be really creative with him though because his one red flag is playing through traffic as a traditional LB. He is just another guy in that role.

Okudah - I don't want to get ahead of myself because I still have some work to do there but I see some Patrick Peterson when it comes to versatility and competitiveness. He can be an island guy - something I don't say often.

Would the FO use 1st round pick on CB 2 years in a row? I don't know.
Giants should go BPA at #4 for a guy that fits the system. That would likely be DT Brown for me but I think he is a pure 4-3 DT type, correct?

If Okudah can handle #1 WR's as a rookie than drafting him #4 may make the most sense. I have no problem with back-to-back 1st round CB's in this passing league.
If the BPA  
TommyWiseau : 1/24/2020 7:40 am : link
Is a CB, so be it. Take the man. We need talent and this is mainly a passing league.
Thanks Sy. As many  
section125 : 1/24/2020 8:20 am : link
have said it sure is a pleasure to have you answer our questions and give us a little insight on these college kids coming.

FWIW, I can see where Peppers and Simmons are suited for the same position. However Peppers is 5'11 215 lbs(maybe) and Simmons is 6'4 235 lbs(but a slender build). I see Simmons as a play maker, and his coverage against TEs may be better than Peppers. Is there any chance that Simmons could gain strength to play ILB? He does get washed out inside on runs and that is the only reason he would have a hard time playing ILB. Of course gaining strength(and weight) would likely cause a drop in his speed.
Or conversely, could he drop weight and play as a true FS? There is so much play maker in him it is hard to pass up, but where does he fit for 3 downs?
Good stuff, Sy. Going back to the RBs  
Bobby Humphrey's Earpad : 1/24/2020 8:34 am : link
You mentioned you like Anthony McFarland from Maryland - have you had a chance to scout the other RB, Javon Leake? Read some reports that he will skyrocket up draft boards.
Call me crazy, but I really think Simmons can have a Ray Lewis  
jlukes : 1/24/2020 8:37 am : link
like impact at ILB provided we have the beef up front.

Lewis's was able to make plays because the Ravens had a STOUT defensive line that ate up blockers.

Guys like Kelly Gregg, Sam Adams, Anthony Weaver, Halotia Ngata and Tony Siragusa literally swallowed offensive lineman.

They kept Lewis clean and let Lewis use his speed and instincts (he was only 235 lbs) to find the ball carrier.

Imagine Simmons with Lawrence, Williams, and Tomlinson in front of him.
Agree on Simmons  
JonC : 1/24/2020 8:44 am : link
he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no.

Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us.
RE: Agree on Simmons  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 8:57 am : link
In comment 14791794 JonC said:
Quote:
he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no.

Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us.


I think that if the Giants can sign one of the better FS's in free agency - J. Simmons, Harris, Clinton-Dix - they'll be less inclined to look favorably on I. Simmons.

Barring a trade down, my hope is that they'll opt for an OT at #4 (assuming that one or more will be worth it after the pre-draft process is completed), or that they'll "go big" on defense with someone like Derrick Brown or A.J. Epenesa (again, after the pre-draft process runs its course).

I'd rather not see them draft a WR until either side of the trenches has been addressed.
Sy  
Tuckrule : 1/24/2020 9:00 am : link
Thank for all the work. What are your thoughts on Kenneth Murray?
Simmons is 6'4 240  
figgy2989 : 1/24/2020 9:00 am : link
Why does everyone seemed to come to the conclusion that he will only be a S in the NFL?

He is only 21 years old and his body will certainly fill out.
Watch him play  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:03 am : link
he doesn't play remotely like a LB in college, let alone the NFL. He's not 240 right now either.
Ray Lewis played at 250  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:08 am : link
and was an absolute animal, born to play LB. Apples and oranges.
RE: Watch him play  
section125 : 1/24/2020 9:15 am : link
In comment 14791829 JonC said:
Quote:
he doesn't play remotely like a LB in college, let alone the NFL. He's not 240 right now either.


This I agree with. Once he gets close to the line, he is mundane at this point. Too slight of a build. I have to say he was bigger than I had thought when he was playing vs LSU. But still thin. His coverage is phenomenal.

Also, please no WR at #4 - they need line help badly.
RE: RE: Agree on Simmons  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 14791809 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14791794 JonC said:


Quote:


he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no.

Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us.



I think that if the Giants can sign one of the better FS's in free agency - J. Simmons, Harris, Clinton-Dix - they'll be less inclined to look favorably on I. Simmons.

Barring a trade down, my hope is that they'll opt for an OT at #4 (assuming that one or more will be worth it after the pre-draft process is completed), or that they'll "go big" on defense with someone like Derrick Brown or A.J. Epenesa (again, after the pre-draft process runs its course).

I'd rather not see them draft a WR until either side of the trenches has been addressed.


I'd rather not a WR as well, but one could be the best value at #4. I highly doubt we go DT and Epenesa is productive but looks more like a 3-4 DE. We should be able to do better in terms of positional value.
For once in my life,  
section125 : 1/24/2020 9:30 am : link
I think a trade down to get an additional #2 or #3 might be the best answer.

But I do think that Judge, Garrett and Graham will look at the players we have in a different light. There are likely players who were mis-used/mis-taught on the team. Plus, I think Garrett may be a big help with player evals. It really comes down to the player evals the new staff puts together.

This is still at least a two year build. No way to correct and fill all these holes at once. OL/ILB/ER are massive repairs they need to make.
" This is still at least a two year build. No way to correct and fill"  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:38 am : link
Yep.
I only want Simmons if he's considered a legit blue chip.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/24/2020 9:48 am : link
I don't see that like I do with Okudah, who literally jumps off the screen like Shawn Springs does.

I'd be happy with Okudah at 4, but if he's gone and it's red chip city, TRADE DOWN. You would have to really sell me hard that SImmons would have a bigger impact than someone like Murray from the Sooners.
Thanks Sy  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 9:59 am : link
-I think NYG needs to go defense @4 if they stay put. I can see them spending big at CB or EDGE...and going with Simmons or Okudah at #4.

-OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.

-This WR class is historic. NYG could use another young pass catcher to develop and contribute on a part time basis in 2020, preferably one with size. Because of the supply, they may get a day 2 grade in round 4 or 5 like they did with Slayton. Be patient - someone will be there day 3.


These thoughts mirror my own thinking and posts over the last several weeks. You don't address the trade down potential and how Herbert's stellar Senior Bowl week has increased the odds we can make a move. That would be the ideal situation to maximize the value of taking an OT which is clearly the #1 need on this roster. Combined with say signing Edge Judon and CB Roby.

Draft would look something like this:

OT Wills #6- soundest OT in this class
OC Ruiz #36- one of my favorite players in this class
ILB Murray #38- Deion Jones clone
S Fuller #100
CB Samuels #14
DE Coe #132
WR T Jackson #164
Torrag  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:02 am : link
We're thinking along the same lines, I dig the plan.
Need to fortify the OL in the draft for once and for all...  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:08 am : link
The Giants two biggest offensive assets Jones and Barkley need to be in positions to succeed with an improved OL.
Thank you, Sy...  
Stev7 : 1/24/2020 10:08 am : link
Looking forward to this years 'Guide'.
RE: Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
GruningsOnTheHill : 1/24/2020 10:14 am : link
In comment 14791362 George from PA said:
Quote:
With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.


Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?
RE: RE: Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:
Quote:
In comment 14791362 George from PA said:


Quote:


With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.



Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?


You aren't missing anything, they would deal with Detroit most likely if they wanted to trade up for a QB.
RE: RE: Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
RiffRaff : 1/24/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:
Quote:
In comment 14791362 George from PA said:


Quote:


With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.



Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?


It's a possibility that Miami does a swap pick trade with us to prevent anyone else from doing a trade with us. That's how those kinds of trades happen. Probably won't happen until Draft Day as the draft commences and if they can't do a deal with Detroit or even Washington. I'm sure Miami is already exploring the possibility to trading up or even staying pat. It will ultimately come down to how much QB fervor is generated leading up to the draft. It could get real interesting real fast after the Senior Bowl, Scouting Combine, and Player Pro Days.
RE: RE: RE: Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
Reale01 : 1/24/2020 11:02 am : link
In comment 14791977 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:


Quote:


In comment 14791362 George from PA said:


Quote:


With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.



Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?



You aren't missing anything, they would deal with Detroit most likely if they wanted to trade up for a QB.


Yes you are ... a little. They would try to deal with Lions but if that does not happen they might deal with the Giants if they wanted to prevent someone from jumping in front of them. A lot can happen and teams may want to trade up for a non-QB at 4 if there are two QBs picked in the top 3.
'Am I missing something...?'  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 11:35 am : link
Yes. There are 3 top QB prospects Burrow/Tua/Herbert for potentially 7 QB hungry teams. You can't stand pat with so many suitors. The Dolphins #5/Chargers #6/Panthers #7/Jags #9/Colts #13/Bucs #14. Even if you factor in guys like Bridgewater and potentially Mullens as options the demand far outweighs the supply for signal callers.
I'm no expert here...  
BillKo : 1/24/2020 11:38 am : link
...but trading down seems to be the play, to recoup another 2nd rounder in lieu of the 3rd rounder we are missing.

It seems the talk is the #4 pick isn't an off the charts type of guy.......maybe I'm wrong.

Hence my trade down scenario.
RE: RE: Tryna find a good center  
Leg of Theismann : 1/24/2020 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14791441 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791436 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better?



Intelligence is trait #1 you want out of OC. But yes I want a guy that can anchor too. I do prefer movement over power though - I am fine with bth Cushenberry and Hennessey. Intrigued by Harris too.


What about Biadasz?
The SB  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 12:14 pm : link
is the Inline TE Bowl, with the top two 2-way TEs in the league. And Gronk winning SBs all those years.

Thanks Reese!
RE: RE: RE: Tryna find a good center  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14792289 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:

What about Biadasz?


I don't know why. I haven't watched college ball (or Biadasz) nearly as much as I used to, but for some reason Biadasz seems to have fallen out of favor just a bit with a lot of the punditry.
Typical wonderful contribution, . . . .  
TC : 1/24/2020 12:30 pm : link
Thanks, sy!

I'd love defense at #4.
2020 draft  
Colin@gbn : 1/24/2020 1:58 pm : link
Afternoon guys: Great write up Dave; always enjoy your insights. A couple of comments. I agree that a trade down is always a possibility but it really just doesn't look all that likely at this point. If Tua is healthy he'll be off the board by #4 and expecting anyone to trade up for Herbert is simply dreaming in technicolor, at least at this time. Herbert did have a decent Senior Bowl week, but the buzz we are hearing coming from Mobile is that more and more teams are actually looking at Jordan Love as their #3 QB. He's been described as having Mahomes-like physical skills especially the arm strength (I actually thing Josh Allen is the better comp), although he had a really miserable season in 2019. Like Herbert Love had a good week in Mobile but what we are hearing is that what they did at the Senior Bowl likely cemented their first round grade, but nobody is talking about them at potential top 5 candidates, again at least at this time. It also appears that NFL teams have gotten a little more cautious about trading up for a QB in the past couple of years particularly where there are questions or warts. For example, nobody traded into the top 5 to get Allen or Rosen of Daniel Jones or Haskins in the past couple of years. The other complicating factor is that all those QB needy teams are also aware that you likely have Lawrence and Fields headlining another pretty good year at the position in 2021.

From the Giants perspective if you do get a trade down possibility then you consider it but one would have to figure at this time that their main focus is on what's available at #4. And as I said on a related thread the other day one can make a pretty case that any one of 4-5 guys including Okudah or Simmons, the top OL or even the top WR are worth that pick and fill a major need. The only problem is that you can only take one. I have no idea who they take their but if I had to guess (or bet) I would think it would be a defensive playmaker.

So much will depend though on what it is the Giants want to do as an organization this off-season. If they were say for example that they absolutely wanted to fix the OL once and for all then an OT at #4 would make some sense not to mention a C at #2. You have to blind or willfully ignorant not to see that the Giants D wasn't very good at all last fall and the team isn't going anywhere until its fixed too and as we say in the trade you can't fix everything with one draft when you only get a couple of really premium picks.

Should be a fun couple of months though.
Thanks for the input, Colin.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 2:04 pm : link
Just curious...where do rank Derrick Brown in relation to Okudah and Simmons?
Reminder  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2020 2:06 pm : link
the Spread offense has changed the way everyone plays on both sides of the ball. LB's like Simmons are infinitely more valuable now then they were in the past (and the Giants wanted Peppers so even if the comp holds true, they greatly value that skillset).

And that the Giants and their scouts, have been absolutely terrible at evaluating and grading OL correctly, for the past decade or so.

2020 draft redux  
Colin@gbn : 1/24/2020 2:11 pm : link
Good question Klaatu: Doesn't matter where I rate him, but we hear from our NFL sources that Brown could very well be in the mix with Okudah and Simmons to be the next rated non-QB after Young. I just can't see the Giants even considering yet another DT type guy, even if you looking at him as a 3-4 DE, who isn't much of a pass rusher. If you want to think out of the box for a moment, the guy they might look at is South Carolina 5T Javon Kinlaw who is a much better pass rusher and who we hear has very quietly kind of worked his way into the 7-10 range and has a ton of upside.
RE: Reminder  
bw in dc : 1/24/2020 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14792542 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
the Spread offense has changed the way everyone plays on both sides of the ball. LB's like Simmons are infinitely more valuable now then they were in the past (and the Giants wanted Peppers so even if the comp holds true, they greatly value that skillset).

And that the Giants and their scouts, have been absolutely terrible at evaluating and grading OL correctly, for the past decade or so.


Cane - you were an early in on Simmons, right? I thought I remember reading a post where you were a big fan. So I decided to watch him more closely this year. Hoping, of course, you were wrong... ;)

Seriously, there is a big tool box there if he gets with the right organization with smart coaching.
Thanks, again.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 2:16 pm : link
Hey, if you're still around, your thoughts on Missouri TE Albert Okwuegbunam. He's on my "Drive Eric Nuts With Your Last Name" Team.
RE: Good stuff, Sy. Going back to the RBs  
Sy'56 : 1/24/2020 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14791780 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:
Quote:
You mentioned you like Anthony McFarland from Maryland - have you had a chance to scout the other RB, Javon Leake? Read some reports that he will skyrocket up draft boards.


Not enough to give a credible opinion yet.
RE: Thanks Sy. As many  
Sy'56 : 1/24/2020 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14791759 section125 said:
Quote:
have said it sure is a pleasure to have you answer our questions and give us a little insight on these college kids coming.

FWIW, I can see where Peppers and Simmons are suited for the same position. However Peppers is 5'11 215 lbs(maybe) and Simmons is 6'4 235 lbs(but a slender build). I see Simmons as a play maker, and his coverage against TEs may be better than Peppers. Is there any chance that Simmons could gain strength to play ILB? He does get washed out inside on runs and that is the only reason he would have a hard time playing ILB. Of course gaining strength(and weight) would likely cause a drop in his speed.
Or conversely, could he drop weight and play as a true FS? There is so much play maker in him it is hard to pass up, but where does he fit for 3 downs?


That is the difficult question. No matter what - I don't see Simmons ever being a solid ILB strictly. He can gain all the weight in the world, I just don't see the style fit.

Can he move to FS? Again that position is incredibly hard to fill and it would be a detriment to Simmons to pin him at one spot.

Like I said, the idea of drafting Simmons needs to come with a specific plan on how to use him.
RE: Sy  
Sy'56 : 1/24/2020 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14791820 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Thank for all the work. What are your thoughts on Kenneth Murray?


My top ILB in the draft and a potential top 10 overall player on my board. I am higher on him than most.

If he runs well - I am going to put the Patrick Willis label on him.
RE: RE: RE: Tryna find a good center  
Sy'56 : 1/24/2020 2:33 pm : link
In comment 14792289 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14791441 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14791436 aGiantGuy said:


Quote:


Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better?



Intelligence is trait #1 you want out of OC. But yes I want a guy that can anchor too. I do prefer movement over power though - I am fine with bth Cushenberry and Hennessey. Intrigued by Harris too.



What about Biadasz?


I think he can be a starter in the right scheme. His athletic ability leaves lot to the desired though. There is some ugly, ugly tape on him.
RE: RE: Sy  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14792589 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791820 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Thank for all the work. What are your thoughts on Kenneth Murray?



My top ILB in the draft and a potential top 10 overall player on my board. I am higher on him than most.

If he runs well - I am going to put the Patrick Willis label on him.


Whoa he said like Keanu Reeves. That's one hell of a high bar, Sy.
You don't draft  
Carson53 : 1/24/2020 3:57 pm : link
a tweener at #4 in the draft, even though Simmons is a
good player. I think you keep away from hybrid/combo types at that spot.
In the middle of the first round, that would be different.
I could see a CB, also a LT.
...  
Toth029 : 1/24/2020 4:02 pm : link
Brian Urlacher played "Lobo backer" which was a hybrid FS/LB role. He ran a 4.61 official time. He weight 238 in college and beefed up to 258 for the combine.

If Simmons can test well and gets heavier, why couldn't he be inside roaming the field?
Urlacher was an animal  
JonC : 1/24/2020 4:05 pm : link
Simmons ain't, it's that simple based on what I've seen. Imo.
It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
JonC : 1/24/2020 4:06 pm : link
physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.
RE: It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
Toth029 : 1/24/2020 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14792762 JonC said:
Quote:
physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.

Ok that's fair.

I just see size and how it isn't a problem for Deion Jones and Kwon Alexander. Being soft isn't a stat but it can limit what a player can/cannot do. I see your argument though.
Tweeners  
Colin@gbn : 1/24/2020 4:14 pm : link
Carson: You of all people should know the value of a tweener. LT, the greatest Giant of them all was a tweener - part LB, part stand-up DE. The question isn't whether he plays a position; its does he make plays. BBCane above nailed it. In this day and age when opposing offenses routinely throw out three WRs as part of their base offense the idea of the 4-3 versus 3-4 defense is almost outdated. To defend against the 3-receiver set you have to play 5 DBs which means you are going to be playing a 4-2 upfront (as the Giants did most of 2019). That means your two LBs have to be able to run as they have so much ground to cover. If the Giants were ultimately to draft Simmons he will play one of those 2 LB positions and while you may give up a little in run support you get what could very well be the best cover LB in the NFL.
RE: It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
Tuckrule : 1/24/2020 4:31 pm : link
In comment 14792762 JonC said:
Quote:
physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.


Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. Itís basically me, you and one more poster who I canít remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. Thatís all. Heís too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane heís useless and the tape shows that.
RE: Tweeners  
Tuckrule : 1/24/2020 4:34 pm : link
In comment 14792777 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Carson: You of all people should know the value of a tweener. LT, the greatest Giant of them all was a tweener - part LB, part stand-up DE. The question isn't whether he plays a position; its does he make plays. BBCane above nailed it. In this day and age when opposing offenses routinely throw out three WRs as part of their base offense the idea of the 4-3 versus 3-4 defense is almost outdated. To defend against the 3-receiver set you have to play 5 DBs which means you are going to be playing a 4-2 upfront (as the Giants did most of 2019). That means your two LBs have to be able to run as they have so much ground to cover. If the Giants were ultimately to draft Simmons he will play one of those 2 LB positions and while you may give up a little in run support you get what could very well be the best cover LB in the NFL.


If Iím an OC and I see simmons as the linebacker against 11 personnel I would tell my qb to audible to a run every single time and run right at him. He will not hold up and heíll be forced off the field.
RE: RE: It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
JonC : 1/24/2020 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14792773 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 14792762 JonC said:


Quote:


physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.


Ok that's fair.

I just see size and how it isn't a problem for Deion Jones and Kwon Alexander. Being soft isn't a stat but it can limit what a player can/cannot do. I see your argument though.


Size isn't as simple as roster listings tho. Not all players at 230 lbs are created equally physically in the sense of playing with physicality, explosion, tackling ability, and power. There's zero power in IS' game at the college level, that doesn't bode well for the NFL level if you want to deploy him in the front seven.

For example, when I played SS years ago at 195 lbs I could physically outmatch many guys who played 30+ lbs heavier than me. It had to do with how I was built, how my body generated power, ball carriers would hit the ground with a thud when I hit them. It carried over into baseball where I was hitting 450 foot homers whereas the bigger guys on the team couldn't touch 400. Some athletes generate much more power than others at the same body weight.
.  
Kyle in NY : 1/24/2020 4:46 pm : link
JonC > Bo Jackson

;)
lol  
JonC : 1/24/2020 4:52 pm : link
Bo at 225-230 lbs is a good example of an athlete few could compete regardless of size. His body generated speed and power few if any could match. Herschel Walker as well, though he wasn't as powerful as Bo.

The LB model in the NFL has evolved more towards speed, but dammit you still need the animal to play LB in the NFL. When was the last time we had the animal? That's probably the last time our LB unit was effective ...
Itís a good point regarding body types  
Kyle in NY : 1/24/2020 4:56 pm : link
Iíve enjoyed the Simmons debate here, heís an intriguing talent but you better make sure you know exactly how you want to utilize him. He doesnít fit one position perfectly which may be too much risk at #4. Give me Okudah
Me too  
JonC : 1/24/2020 5:00 pm : link
just need a QB to go #3 one way or the other.
RE: RE: It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
AcidTest : 1/24/2020 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14792795 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14792762 JonC said:


Quote:


physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.



Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. Itís basically me, you and one more poster who I canít remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. Thatís all. Heís too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane heís useless and the tape shows that.


You can add me to the list. I don't want him at #4. Love his sideline to sideline speed, pursuit ability, and ability to drop into coverage. But he won't hold up against the run, and will often need a lane to get home when rushing. He also has a thin lower body. He'll need to switch to S in the NFL IMO. I'd rather not take a position switcher at #4.
RE: RE: Thank you, Sy....feel they can have their cake and eat it too...  
jvm52106 : 1/24/2020 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:
Quote:
In comment 14791362 George from PA said:


Quote:


With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB
And afford the Giants an extra pick or two?

Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.



Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?


For the same reason we traded with Tennessee years ago to get Shockey (moved up 1 spot), because we were afraid someone else would jump us.
I'm not particularly enamored with Simmons the way many others  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/24/2020 5:19 pm : link
appear to be. I think his ceiling is Anthony Barr, who's a very good player, but not the kind of LB prospect I'd want to use the #4 pick on. When I think of LB prospects I'd draft that high, I think of Kuechly, Patrick Willis, or a healthy Jaylon Smith. Those guys' floors were ridiculously high.

Outside of Okudah, the prospects with the least issues are WRs and DTs (I think Kinlaw is terrific). However the draft is insanely deep at WR and are the Giants really going to draft another DT if LW is still in the fold after the FA period? Where I disagree with Sy is I think at least 3 OTs are worthy of top 10 picks despite whatever flaws appear in their games at this point. Choosing them wouldn't be like reaching for Ereck Flowers simply because I never thought Ereck Flowers was good to begin with. I just decided to go with "In Jerry We Trust". Wirfs, Wills, and Becton (my order) are really good prospects IMO and I think there's a significant gap between them and others who could be drafted later.
bw in dc  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2020 5:24 pm : link
the distressing thing to me is People at the NFL level still haven't adjusted for the use of the Spread offense and all of its impacts at the collegiate level. When Nick Saban of all people, comments about it, you would expect anyone AND everyone associated with football to step back and re-evaluate things. It's just amazing to see in action.

Yes I was in on Simmons and on Beckton, I think IF he shows he can pass the standard knee bend test and pass the background test (Satterfield speaks highly of him) that he and Simmons are gonna be near the top of Gettleman and Judge's list.
RE: Tweeners  
Pheonix Orion : 1/24/2020 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14792777 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Carson: You of all people should know the value of a tweener. LT, the greatest Giant of them all was a tweener - part LB, part stand-up DE. The question isn't whether he plays a position; its does he make plays. BBCane above nailed it. In this day and age when opposing offenses routinely throw out three WRs as part of their base offense the idea of the 4-3 versus 3-4 defense is almost outdated. To defend against the 3-receiver set you have to play 5 DBs which means you are going to be playing a 4-2 upfront (as the Giants did most of 2019). That means your two LBs have to be able to run as they have so much ground to cover. If the Giants were ultimately to draft Simmons he will play one of those 2 LB positions and while you may give up a little in run support you get what could very well be the best cover LB in the NFL.


This is a great post that sums up today's NFL. Simmons if used correctly would have great value to an NFL team. I'd love him or Okudah but prefer the dominant shutdown upside of an LT like Mekhi Becton over them all. He would have the dual effect of greatly improving the run and pass game.
If Jabrill Peppers  
MookGiants : 1/24/2020 7:07 pm : link
factors into anything the Giants do in the draft, they're lost.

Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.

The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
if it is not Simmons or Okundaha  
TMS : 1/24/2020 7:33 pm : link
it is incompetence again by the Giants in the draft. Both are worth that pick none of the other BS moves are . I MO
'expecting anyone to trade up for Herbert is dreaming in technicolor'  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 8:09 pm : link
Question...where did you have Daniel Jones ranked last season? Where did you project him being drafted in your final scenario?

There are many more QB needy teams in the top 14 of the Draft this year which both increases pressure to deal and lowers the cost. The situations aren't comparable.

Just sayin.
I found the 2019 GBN draft archives  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 8:35 pm : link
Daniel Jones ranked #28. I'm not bashing it. It was the consensus position if a little lower than some Draft sites I favor. It just goes to show though that especially QB's are unpredictable in the draft more than any other position. It only takes one team and the pressure to find one is tremendous if you're in need.
RE: I found the 2019 GBN draft archives  
Pheonix Orion : 1/24/2020 9:01 pm : link
In comment 14793103 Torrag said:
Quote:
Daniel Jones ranked #28. I'm not bashing it. It was the consensus position if a little lower than some Draft sites I favor. It just goes to show though that especially QB's are unpredictable in the draft more than any other position. It only takes one team and the pressure to find one is tremendous if you're in need.


I think there are arguments both ways in this. But your point is valid. It just takes one team. If Tua goes 3, teams 5 6 and 7 all want QB. It only takes one.
Trade up ...  
Colin@gbn : 1/24/2020 9:03 pm : link
Hi Torrag: To be honest I am not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with anything. He did go way earlier than just about anybody predicted but nobody traded up for him. I am also not saying somebody won't fall in love with Herbert (or as a I suggested in another thread Jordan Love who we are hearing a lot of teams actually like more) and nobody would be happier than me. Heck I've been following Giants drafts since 1970 and I'm still waiting/hoping for the Giants to make that really dramatic move. FTR I'm still waiting. However, I am a realist and its just not that likely, at least not at this time. As I said right now we are hearing for both Herbert and Love is that they had solid Senior Bowls, but that their performances only cemented first-round grades. Nobody's talking about them as top 5-10 guys. Indeed, just ask yourself: would you trade a #1 or even a #2 to more up to take a QB like Herbert who has more warts than your everyday frog!
RE: If Jabrill Peppers  
Dave in PA : 1/24/2020 9:34 pm : link
In comment 14792961 MookGiants said:
Quote:
factors into anything the Giants do in the draft, they're lost.

Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.

The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
Agreed, Peppers is just another guy until he proves otherwise. Iím for giving him the chance to prove heís worth keeping around, but I found nothing about his play in 2019 to be impressive. Iím also really skeptical of Simmons. I only watched his 2 playoff games, so Iím clearly not well versed with his full body of work, but he did not jump off the screen to me at all. As JonC said above, did IS have that fire to want to dominate guys and be a mad dog out there?
Colin  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 9:39 pm : link
Historically when more QB needy teams sit at the top of the Draft the more activity occurs. This year there are a minimum of 7 teams in the top 14 picks that can reasonably be expected to have serious interest in upgrading their QB situation. Proximity to the pick can spur interest for both parties as it minimizes risk and moderates cost.

For example if I was the Giants I'd be seriously coveting OL in this Draft but I don't love the value at #4. If I were offered a 2nd to move off #4 and stay in the Top 9 I'd do it in a heartbeat. Of course this is all hypothetical but the past clearly shows it's well within the realm of plausibility.

Wentz is one example of many. No one had ever heard of him six weeks before the Draft. The Eagles gave up a 3rd and 4th that year, a 1st the following year and a 2nd the year after that to move from #8 to #2. There are many more examples such as the Bob trade by the Skins.
RE: If Jabrill Peppers  
SGMen : 1/24/2020 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14792961 MookGiants said:
Quote:
factors into anything the Giants do in the draft, they're lost.

Peppers is at best an average football player. He was drafted high, but if he was judged based on his play in the NFL and not his athleticism and ranking out of high school and college, no one would even think about him.

The Giants should be looking to upgrade players like Peppers
Peppers started slow but played well until he got hurt. But he's not a probowl level player by any means.

SS Peppers
FS Love
CB Okundah
CB Baker
CB Beal
CB Ballentine
These are the guys that can be difference makers as starters, nickel and dime backs. Its a passing league.
RE: Trade up ...  
AcidTest : 1/24/2020 10:07 pm : link
In comment 14793147 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Hi Torrag: To be honest I am not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with anything. He did go way earlier than just about anybody predicted but nobody traded up for him. I am also not saying somebody won't fall in love with Herbert (or as a I suggested in another thread Jordan Love who we are hearing a lot of teams actually like more) and nobody would be happier than me. Heck I've been following Giants drafts since 1970 and I'm still waiting/hoping for the Giants to make that really dramatic move. FTR I'm still waiting. However, I am a realist and its just not that likely, at least not at this time. As I said right now we are hearing for both Herbert and Love is that they had solid Senior Bowls, but that their performances only cemented first-round grades. Nobody's talking about them as top 5-10 guys. Indeed, just ask yourself: would you trade a #1 or even a #2 to more up to take a QB like Herbert who has more warts than your everyday frog!


Excellent analysis. It does seem unlikely anyone will move up for Herbert at this point. Miami also knows that we aren't taking a QB. Other teams like San Diego probably won't want to pay the draft capital to move up to #4 just to get ahead of Miami so they can draft Herbert.

But there still may be an opportunity to trade down. We're assuming that a team only wants to trade up for a QB. Perhaps a team would trade up for Brown or Okudah.
RE: RE: Trade up ...  
Eman11 : 1/24/2020 10:27 pm : link
In comment 14793210 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 14793147 Colin@gbn said:


Quote:


Hi Torrag: To be honest I am not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with anything. He did go way earlier than just about anybody predicted but nobody traded up for him. I am also not saying somebody won't fall in love with Herbert (or as a I suggested in another thread Jordan Love who we are hearing a lot of teams actually like more) and nobody would be happier than me. Heck I've been following Giants drafts since 1970 and I'm still waiting/hoping for the Giants to make that really dramatic move. FTR I'm still waiting. However, I am a realist and its just not that likely, at least not at this time. As I said right now we are hearing for both Herbert and Love is that they had solid Senior Bowls, but that their performances only cemented first-round grades. Nobody's talking about them as top 5-10 guys. Indeed, just ask yourself: would you trade a #1 or even a #2 to more up to take a QB like Herbert who has more warts than your everyday frog!



Excellent analysis. It does seem unlikely anyone will move up for Herbert at this point. Miami also knows that we aren't taking a QB. Other teams like San Diego probably won't want to pay the draft capital to move up to #4 just to get ahead of Miami so they can draft Herbert.

But there still may be an opportunity to trade down. We're assuming that a team only wants to trade up for a QB. Perhaps a team would trade up for Brown or Okudah.


Maybe not for Herbert but if Burrow, Young and Okudah go 1-3, and Tua is available at 4, SD might want to make that jump and Miami might as well to keep from getting jumped.

As others have said its still really early and a lot is going to happen between now and draft day but it's not out of the question Tua is there at 4 and gets DG's phone ringing.
Jabrill Peppers  
jacob12 : 1/25/2020 3:10 am : link
Peppers is a great athlete and could be an outstanding NFL player. Sy wrote that Jabrill has the potential to be an impact defensive player.
RE: Thanks Sy!  
Jay in Toronto : 1/25/2020 5:53 am : link
In comment 14791463 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
The Giants have not had very good big wide receiver, since Plax. How do you project Michael Pittman, Jr. going into the pros? Where do you see him going, and do you think the Giants will seriously consider him?


I'd be curious to see Sy's analysis on Cephus in this regard.
RE: RE: RE: Sy regarding Derrick Brown  
Jay in Toronto : 1/25/2020 5:55 am : link
In comment 14791488 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14791443 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14791437 Nine-Tails said:


Quote:


Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. Thatís one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, heís great. We just have so many needs at other areas.



No, I do not see Gettleman going there.



I might go there if Leonard Williams wasn't in the picture.


He might not be by Draft Day. Wonder if that is a consideration if Brown is in their first row.
RE: Trade up ...  
Pheonix Orion : 1/25/2020 8:05 am : link
In comment 14793147 Colin@gbn said:
Quote:
Hi Torrag: To be honest I am not sure what Daniel Jones has to do with anything. He did go way earlier than just about anybody predicted but nobody traded up for him. I am also not saying somebody won't fall in love with Herbert (or as a I suggested in another thread Jordan Love who we are hearing a lot of teams actually like more) and nobody would be happier than me. Heck I've been following Giants drafts since 1970 and I'm still waiting/hoping for the Giants to make that really dramatic move. FTR I'm still waiting. However, I am a realist and its just not that likely, at least not at this time. As I said right now we are hearing for both Herbert and Love is that they had solid Senior Bowls, but that their performances only cemented first-round grades. Nobody's talking about them as top 5-10 guys. Indeed, just ask yourself: would you trade a #1 or even a #2 to more up to take a QB like Herbert who has more warts than your everyday frog!


Leaning more towards Colin's take because Herbert and Love seem to come with a lot more warts than Jones did. Jones really didn't show accuracy or intangible issues in college it was more just not great numbers due to a horrible surrounding cast. Herbert and Love's issues seem to go beyond that. Josh Allen with all his elite measurables arm, height, speed etc still went 7 because you could see bad decision making process and very sporadic accuracy. You didn't see those kind of flags with Jones as much, what you saw was sometimes a lack of awareness of the peripheral rush (off the edges) and clock in his head occasionally. Much smaller overall issues/flags than many of the others.

With all that said, it just takes one team to fall in love with the tools that both Herbert and Love have to work with and we happen to have 3 teams in a row right behind us who all need the all important QB.
Sy's OL comments agree and disagree  
Pheonix Orion : 1/25/2020 8:19 am : link

-The OL can be addressed in round 2. There will be a quality OT or OC there, both spots I think NYG needs to address. Maybe one can be done in FA? Not sure I see the value there though, we will see if anyone gets cut due to money reasons though.

-NYG can consider OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.

I think Becton has so many elite tools to work with (Huge frame , big powerful bulk but not sloppy bulk, extremely long arms, nasty streak, very good feet for his size) and from all accounts a decent football IQ and work ethic that he will realize his talent. Very different than Flowers and how badly we missed on evaluation of him with Ross/Reese.

No doubt we can get some plug and play guys in the 2nd round but much less likely a dominant LT (the most important position on the line and probably our biggest need).
RE: Jabrill Peppers  
SGMen : 1/25/2020 11:40 am : link
In comment 14793298 jacob12 said:
Quote:
Peppers is a great athlete and could be an outstanding NFL player. Sy wrote that Jabrill has the potential to be an impact defensive player.
Clearly, the potential is there with Peppers. This has to be his year to "blossom" and become a stud SS. I'm not saying All-Pro but close to Probowl.
'Herbert...seem to come with a lot more warts than Jones did'  
Torrag : 1/25/2020 1:11 pm : link
There is literally not a single statistical basis for that conclusion. Herbert completed 67% of his passes with 32TD v 6 INT this season. Sorry but supporting cast or no Jones never sniffed that efficiency level. Not even close. They have similar size, athletic ability and Herbert has the stronger arm.

I'm going on record right now Herbert won't get out of the Top 7 picks and could go Top 5.
like a TE choice if he is two way and  
TMS : 1/25/2020 3:00 pm : link
worth the pick after the 1st round.
So let me get  
XBRONX : 1/25/2020 3:12 pm : link
this straight. We should take a OT in round 2, who is not good enough to go in round 1. Who is that player and how long before he is worthy of playing? Who plays RT or LT next year?
RE: RE: RE: It's a physicality, mentality, and what he can and can't do  
PatersonPlank : 1/25/2020 3:13 pm : link
In comment 14792843 AcidTest said:
Quote:
In comment 14792795 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


In comment 14792762 JonC said:


Quote:


physically that says to me he's not a LB at the NFL level.



Jon, we are fighting a losing battle. Itís basically me, you and one more poster who I canít remember his handle. I just pray we do not take Simmons. Thatís all. Heís too much of a risk in my mind to take at 4. I also disagree with SY on his blitzing ability. Without a free rush lane heís useless and the tape shows that.



You can add me to the list. I don't want him at #4. Love his sideline to sideline speed, pursuit ability, and ability to drop into coverage. But he won't hold up against the run, and will often need a lane to get home when rushing. He also has a thin lower body. He'll need to switch to S in the NFL IMO. I'd rather not take a position switcher at #4.


Me too, I don't want him at #4. If Sy has a top 10 grade on the ILB Murray I'd take a long look at him though
RE: Jabrill Peppers  
MookGiants : 1/27/2020 2:53 am : link
In comment 14793298 jacob12 said:
Quote:
Peppers is a great athlete and could be an outstanding NFL player. Sy wrote that Jabrill has the potential to be an impact defensive player.


Peppers has shown nothing consistently in the NFL that should make even one person believe he could be an outstanding NFL player.

I'd sign right now for him being a solid NFL player, because to this point his resume is one of average at best.

Everyone makes excuses for him. That he's playing out of position or the talent around him sucks or the coaching sucks.

Hopefully he gets better as a player but to this point he's shown nothing to make me believe he can be a good player.
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