Quick update on big picture NYG Draft outlook

In comment 14791386 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14791344 widmerseyebrow said: Quote: Has been brought up a lot here as of late. Where should he be going in the draft? Should the Giants be interested? Interested? Absolutely. 1st round grade and has some of the most dominant tape I have seen from OT in years. There are consistency issues and I think they will need to get some 1 on 1 visits with him. He is sloppy - and one red flag is that he got worse as the year went. He opened the year with quality technique but by the end of the year he got really sloppy. Maybe he got too caught up in to his pancake-block highlight reel? That won't work in the NFL Question is...will he work on technique? And keep working on it. And then keep working on it.

I think him being most dominant OT many including SY have seen in years is a huge compliment . That upside is crazy and I think the character stuff is very good too . I take him over the field and we have a mammoth stud LT to protect DJ (who currently struggles with edge pressure awareness) and to open up holes for Barkley for the next 10 years .

Columbo is here to coach them up now!

The Giants have not had very good big wide receiver, since Plax. How do you project Michael Pittman, Jr. going into the pros? Where do you see him going, and do you think the Giants will seriously consider him?

But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley.
As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.

In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:

Quote:

But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley. As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.

Gettleman came in and aaid fixing the OL is priority 1. They gonna watch the tape and they gonna say we need an LT (hopefully Mekhi).

Slight tradedown and then an LT? That would be amazing.

In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:

Quote:

But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley. As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.

I agree, but you can't force the pick, either. That's how you end up with Flowers and Pugh.

In comment 14791443 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14791437 Nine-Tails said: Quote: Could you see Gettleman taking him at four. That’s one of my biggest fears and has nothing to do with Brown, he’s great. We just have so many needs at other areas. No, I do not see Gettleman going there.

I might go there if Leonard Williams wasn't in the picture.

He's a guy at the Senior Bowl that Pat Kirwan was talking up the other day. Slightly undersized at 6'2" 241lb, but he's a guy who did a bit of everything at UMich. Versatile... A Swiss army knife. Perfect when you hear Joe Judge talk about being multiple.

Micah Parsons, do you like his game, is he a fit for ILB in our scheme? And what round do you see him going in?

In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:

Quote:

But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley. As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.

Exactly

at Penn State. Not in this draft. Wait til next year.

Do you think the 3-Safety look becomes the base defense?

In comment 14791522 Reb8thVA said:

Quote:

In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said: Quote: But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley. As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL. Exactly

Agree as well. Need to protect Jones and make Barkley's career last.

the first Round (Becton at 6 after a slight trade down with the LAC and acquire another 2nd). After that, gimmee Cushenberry to man the pivot in Round 2. 3 new starters there. Away we go. Replace Zeitler via the draft in the next year or two as well at RG, but not yet.

This team is in DESPERATE need of an influx of premium young talent at the LOS. They're pretty good at DL believe it or not. The LBs need a lot of work of course, but the OL is in desperate need of being replenished talent-wise.

In comment 14791464 BobR in Durham said:

Quote:

But, every year that the OL is not fixed is a year that blunts the development of Daniel Jones and negatively impacts the health and performance of Saquan Barkley. As bad as the defense is, we are fooling ourselves if we think it's worse than the impact of a bad OL.

+1 million. Thank you

Reading your stuff makes the off season way more enjoyable.

Your comment about the historic WR class makes the horrible LW trade sting every more. 3.4 could potentially be a sweet spot for a WR. Shepard is another concussion away from retirement and Tate is old. Wr is a bigger need than most people think IMO

Interesting re: your concern about Simmons’ fit. After reading your post, absent a trade down (which is my desired outcome) I really think Okudah should be the pick. In spite of the investment made last year, CB is thin. Baker is a question mark and only other young guys behind him.

In comment 14791528 Bill in TN said:

Quote:

at Penn State. Not in this draft. Wait til next year.

F-ck! We got spoiled with depth last draft

In comment 14791609 Ned In Atlanta said:

Quote:

Reading your stuff makes the off season way more enjoyable. Your comment about the historic WR class makes the horrible LW trade sting every more. 3.4 could potentially be a sweet spot for a WR. Shepard is another concussion away from retirement and Tate is old. Wr is a bigger need than most people think IMO Interesting re: your concern about Simmons’ fit. After reading your post, absent a trade down (which is my desired outcome) I really think Okudah should be the pick. In spite of the investment made last year, CB is thin. Baker is a question mark and only other young guys behind him.

Free agency is also fairly deep at CB. Secondary is extremely young with JJ gone and Bethea likely next. We just spent 3 picks last year on secondary including a 1st rounder. 3rd rd supplement pick in Beal the year before. Love Okudah but think we go vet here for the other starting CB.

In comment 14791590 Optimus-NY said:

Quote:

the first Round (Becton at 6 after a slight trade down with the LAC and acquire another 2nd). After that, gimmee Cushenberry to man the pivot in Round 2. 3 new starters there. Away we go. Replace Zeitler via the draft in the next year or two as well at RG, but not yet. This team is in DESPERATE need of an influx of premium young talent at the LOS. They're pretty good at DL believe it or not. The LBs need a lot of work of course, but the OL is in desperate need of being replenished talent-wise.

That would be pretty ridiculous. Then plug Gates in at Center (or at least try him there). He actually got snaps at 3rd string as a rookie and apparently showed promise there.

When Cush is ready he takes over. Gates can be the ultimate swing guy who plays anywhere (like a Diehl or Seubert )

Becton/Solder-Hernendez-Gates/Cush- Zietler- Conklin/Gates

In comment 14791463 DonnieD89 said:

Quote:

The Giants have not had very good big wide receiver, since Plax. How do you project Michael Pittman, Jr. going into the pros? Where do you see him going, and do you think the Giants will seriously consider him?

League is going to love him. I have a 2/3 round garden him - but I think in the crowded WR class someone can get a value on him. Physical guy with plus routes and ball skills

In comment 14791394 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14791363 beatrixkiddo said: Quote: Sy a big thank you as this is my favorite time of year on BBI, and your contributions on the draft are such a boost to the content of these threads. Not knowing much about Simmons or Okudah what are your projections on them as pros, what current players are they most similar to in reaching that kind of potential? thanks! Simmons is one of the more unique players I have scouted. I see some Derwin James in him actually, the LAC safety. You have to be really creative with him though because his one red flag is playing through traffic as a traditional LB. He is just another guy in that role. Okudah - I don't want to get ahead of myself because I still have some work to do there but I see some Patrick Peterson when it comes to versatility and competitiveness. He can be an island guy - something I don't say often. Would the FO use 1st round pick on CB 2 years in a row? I don't know.

Giants should go BPA at #4 for a guy that fits the system. That would likely be DT Brown for me but I think he is a pure 4-3 DT type, correct?

If Okudah can handle #1 WR's as a rookie than drafting him #4 may make the most sense. I have no problem with back-to-back 1st round CB's in this passing league.

Is a CB, so be it. Take the man. We need talent and this is mainly a passing league.

have said it sure is a pleasure to have you answer our questions and give us a little insight on these college kids coming.

FWIW, I can see where Peppers and Simmons are suited for the same position. However Peppers is 5'11 215 lbs(maybe) and Simmons is 6'4 235 lbs(but a slender build). I see Simmons as a play maker, and his coverage against TEs may be better than Peppers. Is there any chance that Simmons could gain strength to play ILB? He does get washed out inside on runs and that is the only reason he would have a hard time playing ILB. Of course gaining strength(and weight) would likely cause a drop in his speed.
Or conversely, could he drop weight and play as a true FS? There is so much play maker in him it is hard to pass up, but where does he fit for 3 downs?

You mentioned you like Anthony McFarland from Maryland - have you had a chance to scout the other RB, Javon Leake? Read some reports that he will skyrocket up draft boards.

like impact at ILB provided we have the beef up front.

Lewis's was able to make plays because the Ravens had a STOUT defensive line that ate up blockers.

Guys like Kelly Gregg, Sam Adams, Anthony Weaver, Halotia Ngata and Tony Siragusa literally swallowed offensive lineman.

They kept Lewis clean and let Lewis use his speed and instincts (he was only 235 lbs) to find the ball carrier.

Imagine Simmons with Lawrence, Williams, and Tomlinson in front of him.

he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no.

Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us.

In comment 14791794 JonC said:

Quote:

he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no. Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us.

I think that if the Giants can sign one of the better FS's in free agency - J. Simmons, Harris, Clinton-Dix - they'll be less inclined to look favorably on I. Simmons.

Barring a trade down, my hope is that they'll opt for an OT at #4 (assuming that one or more will be worth it after the pre-draft process is completed), or that they'll "go big" on defense with someone like Derrick Brown or A.J. Epenesa (again, after the pre-draft process runs its course).

I'd rather not see them draft a WR until either side of the trenches has been addressed.

Thank for all the work. What are your thoughts on Kenneth Murray?

Why does everyone seemed to come to the conclusion that he will only be a S in the NFL?

He is only 21 years old and his body will certainly fill out.

he doesn't play remotely like a LB in college, let alone the NFL. He's not 240 right now either.

and was an absolute animal, born to play LB. Apples and oranges.

In comment 14791829 JonC said:

Quote:

he doesn't play remotely like a LB in college, let alone the NFL. He's not 240 right now either.

This I agree with. Once he gets close to the line, he is mundane at this point. Too slight of a build. I have to say he was bigger than I had thought when he was playing vs LSU. But still thin. His coverage is phenomenal.

Also, please no WR at #4 - they need line help badly.

In comment 14791809 Klaatu said:

Quote:

In comment 14791794 JonC said: Quote: he's a S in the NFL, not a LB of any impact. Just say no. Here's hoping an OT or WR makes the grade if one of the OSU blue chips isn't there for us. I think that if the Giants can sign one of the better FS's in free agency - J. Simmons, Harris, Clinton-Dix - they'll be less inclined to look favorably on I. Simmons. Barring a trade down, my hope is that they'll opt for an OT at #4 (assuming that one or more will be worth it after the pre-draft process is completed), or that they'll "go big" on defense with someone like Derrick Brown or A.J. Epenesa (again, after the pre-draft process runs its course). I'd rather not see them draft a WR until either side of the trenches has been addressed.

I'd rather not a WR as well, but one could be the best value at #4. I highly doubt we go DT and Epenesa is productive but looks more like a 3-4 DE. We should be able to do better in terms of positional value.

I think a trade down to get an additional #2 or #3 might be the best answer.

But I do think that Judge, Garrett and Graham will look at the players we have in a different light. There are likely players who were mis-used/mis-taught on the team. Plus, I think Garrett may be a big help with player evals. It really comes down to the player evals the new staff puts together.

This is still at least a two year build. No way to correct and fill all these holes at once. OL/ILB/ER are massive repairs they need to make.

Yep.

I don't see that like I do with Okudah, who literally jumps off the screen like Shawn Springs does.

I'd be happy with Okudah at 4, but if he's gone and it's red chip city, TRADE DOWN. You would have to really sell me hard that SImmons would have a bigger impact than someone like Murray from the Sooners.

-I think NYG needs to go defense @4 if they stay put. I can see them spending big at CB or EDGE...and going with Simmons or Okudah at #4.

-OT at #4 - but there is a group of 3 or 4 guys that all have warts. I still have 1st round grades on them but in terms of immediate impact and really high ceiling, may be a tough sell to take them that high.

-This WR class is historic. NYG could use another young pass catcher to develop and contribute on a part time basis in 2020, preferably one with size. Because of the supply, they may get a day 2 grade in round 4 or 5 like they did with Slayton. Be patient - someone will be there day 3.

These thoughts mirror my own thinking and posts over the last several weeks. You don't address the trade down potential and how Herbert's stellar Senior Bowl week has increased the odds we can make a move. That would be the ideal situation to maximize the value of taking an OT which is clearly the #1 need on this roster. Combined with say signing Edge Judon and CB Roby.

Draft would look something like this:

OT Wills #6- soundest OT in this class
OC Ruiz #36- one of my favorite players in this class
ILB Murray #38- Deion Jones clone
S Fuller #100
CB Samuels #14
DE Coe #132
WR T Jackson #164

We're thinking along the same lines, I dig the plan.

The Giants two biggest offensive assets Jones and Barkley need to be in positions to succeed with an improved OL.

Looking forward to this years 'Guide'.

In comment 14791362 George from PA said:

Quote:

With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB And afford the Giants an extra pick or two? Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit.

Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?

In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:

Quote:

In comment 14791362 George from PA said: Quote: With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB And afford the Giants an extra pick or two? Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit. Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?

You aren't missing anything, they would deal with Detroit most likely if they wanted to trade up for a QB.

In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said:

Quote:

In comment 14791362 George from PA said: Quote: With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB And afford the Giants an extra pick or two? Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit. Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...?

It's a possibility that Miami does a swap pick trade with us to prevent anyone else from doing a trade with us. That's how those kinds of trades happen. Probably won't happen until Draft Day as the draft commences and if they can't do a deal with Detroit or even Washington. I'm sure Miami is already exploring the possibility to trading up or even staying pat. It will ultimately come down to how much QB fervor is generated leading up to the draft. It could get real interesting real fast after the Senior Bowl, Scouting Combine, and Player Pro Days.

In comment 14791977 GFAN52 said:

Quote:

In comment 14791954 GruningsOnTheHill said: Quote: In comment 14791362 George from PA said: Quote: With Miami @5, and plenty of picks...seems like a no brainer....to swap picks....to assure Miami their QB And afford the Giants an extra pick or two? Assuming chase young and corner are too valuable for Washington and Detroit. Why would Miami (#5) swap picks with the Giants (#4) to move up 1 spot in order to assure themselves of a QB? The Giants aren't taking a QB in the 1st round, so what's the point? Am I missing something...? You aren't missing anything, they would deal with Detroit most likely if they wanted to trade up for a QB.

Yes you are ... a little. They would try to deal with Lions but if that does not happen they might deal with the Giants if they wanted to prevent someone from jumping in front of them. A lot can happen and teams may want to trade up for a non-QB at 4 if there are two QBs picked in the top 3.

Yes. There are 3 top QB prospects Burrow/Tua/Herbert for potentially 7 QB hungry teams. You can't stand pat with so many suitors. The Dolphins #5/Chargers #6/Panthers #7/Jags #9/Colts #13/Bucs #14. Even if you factor in guys like Bridgewater and potentially Mullens as options the demand far outweighs the supply for signal callers.

...but trading down seems to be the play, to recoup another 2nd rounder in lieu of the 3rd rounder we are missing.

It seems the talk is the #4 pick isn't an off the charts type of guy.......maybe I'm wrong.

Hence my trade down scenario.

In comment 14791441 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14791436 aGiantGuy said: Quote: Matt Hennessy looks like he could be an elite zone blocker at the NFL level, thought he was light in the pants though and all his tools may not translate to NFL defenders, wadda you think? Do you like Cushenberry better? Intelligence is trait #1 you want out of OC. But yes I want a guy that can anchor too. I do prefer movement over power though - I am fine with bth Cushenberry and Hennessey. Intrigued by Harris too.

What about Biadasz?

is the Inline TE Bowl, with the top two 2-way TEs in the league. And Gronk winning SBs all those years.

Thanks Reese!

In comment 14792289 Leg of Theismann said:

Quote:

What about Biadasz?

I don't know why. I haven't watched college ball (or Biadasz) nearly as much as I used to, but for some reason Biadasz seems to have fallen out of favor just a bit with a lot of the punditry.

Thanks, sy!

I'd love defense at #4.

Afternoon guys: Great write up Dave; always enjoy your insights. A couple of comments. I agree that a trade down is always a possibility but it really just doesn't look all that likely at this point. If Tua is healthy he'll be off the board by #4 and expecting anyone to trade up for Herbert is simply dreaming in technicolor, at least at this time. Herbert did have a decent Senior Bowl week, but the buzz we are hearing coming from Mobile is that more and more teams are actually looking at Jordan Love as their #3 QB. He's been described as having Mahomes-like physical skills especially the arm strength (I actually thing Josh Allen is the better comp), although he had a really miserable season in 2019. Like Herbert Love had a good week in Mobile but what we are hearing is that what they did at the Senior Bowl likely cemented their first round grade, but nobody is talking about them at potential top 5 candidates, again at least at this time. It also appears that NFL teams have gotten a little more cautious about trading up for a QB in the past couple of years particularly where there are questions or warts. For example, nobody traded into the top 5 to get Allen or Rosen of Daniel Jones or Haskins in the past couple of years. The other complicating factor is that all those QB needy teams are also aware that you likely have Lawrence and Fields headlining another pretty good year at the position in 2021.

From the Giants perspective if you do get a trade down possibility then you consider it but one would have to figure at this time that their main focus is on what's available at #4. And as I said on a related thread the other day one can make a pretty case that any one of 4-5 guys including Okudah or Simmons, the top OL or even the top WR are worth that pick and fill a major need. The only problem is that you can only take one. I have no idea who they take their but if I had to guess (or bet) I would think it would be a defensive playmaker.

So much will depend though on what it is the Giants want to do as an organization this off-season. If they were say for example that they absolutely wanted to fix the OL once and for all then an OT at #4 would make some sense not to mention a C at #2. You have to blind or willfully ignorant not to see that the Giants D wasn't very good at all last fall and the team isn't going anywhere until its fixed too and as we say in the trade you can't fix everything with one draft when you only get a couple of really premium picks.

Should be a fun couple of months though.