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One thing that really bothers me about the Eli HoF debate

twostepgiants : 1/23/2020 8:24 pm
Is that I see repeatedly mentioned by the “experts” on ESPN and other places that Eli “has 2 rings” and/or these incredible SB “moments” and it’s done in a way that lumps in the Brad Johnson’s, Trent Dilfers etc with him.

The issue is that this largely diminishes what Eli did in those 2 seasons and runs. It acts as if he was either carried to a win a la Dilfer or he had a great one off game like Doug Williams. Neither is true. 2007 was a remarkable run to a Super Bowl, 2011 was an incredible season and a great run to a Super Bowl. Manning received MVP that year and deservedly so and led a pretty unstoppable offense by seasons end.


Manning led 8 wins with 5 of those wins coming on the road. He knocked off the 1 and 2 seeds both times, All of these teams were 13-3 or better. He didn’t just beat Brady, he beat Favre and Rodgers and Romo. Manning bested a 15-1 defending Super Bowl champion on their home field. He topped BrettFavre in an Ice Bowl. They beat top rated offenses and defenses. He took an insane pounding at San Fran against an incredible defense.

It wasn’t just the Helmet Catch and the Manningham throw. It was the insane drive in a minute vs Dallas before the half. It was his ice in his veins stoic ness that undressed Al Harris. It was his Sideline improvised toss to Kevin Boss. It was his Hail Mary to Hakeem Nicks, it was his level headless to tell TC to call a TO. It was his dogged determination to get up hit after hit that took away San Fran’s heart.

It wasn’t one game, or two games. He wasn’t carried by defenses, He led two championship teams and what should be considerEd legendary playoff runs.

Yes they slayed the Patriots in both Super Bowls but the entire run was legendary and magical and they laid waste to some of the best teams and the leagues most prominent franchises.

These runs altered the history of the NFL. It’s not just what would NFL history look like with a 7th or 8th Pats SB or the first 19-0 team. How about Brett Favres 2nd Super Bowl Title in his last game with the Pack? How about Romo getting a Super Bowl in Big D? Those were 2 13-3 teams. How about Rodgers going back-to-back with a 15-1 team? Or Jim Harbaugh winning his for San Fran?

This was New England, Dallas. Green Bay and San Francisco he took out. Brady, Favre, Rodgers, Romo. Legacies would be completely changed. This wasn’t knocking off some 9-7 5th or 6th see type Houston Texan teams.

The history of the NFL can’t be told with out Eli and that’s why he deserves to be in.
+ 1000  
steviej : 1/23/2020 8:28 pm : link
Great & definitely spot on post !!
Well said.  
Klaatu : 1/23/2020 8:29 pm : link
......
They conveniently forget or do not recall,  
Big Blue '56 : 1/23/2020 8:30 pm : link
the ENTIRE playoff runs in ‘08 and ‘11 where we dispensed with pretty powerful 1 and 2 seeds both times. Arguably the best runs ever considering the records of our opponents
RE: + 1000  
mfsd : 1/23/2020 8:30 pm : link
In comment 14791493 steviej said:
Quote:
Great & definitely spot on post !!


+ 1001
...  
christian : 1/23/2020 8:31 pm : link
I haven't seen or read a single piece of coverage over the last two days that's even remotely hinted that Manning was carried and wasn't a huge part of winning those two championships.

He's been lauded by his former teammates, competitors, and the national media.

I mean even Ranaan and ESPN were effusive in the article announcing his retirement.

I'm sure you can find detractors, but coming to this conclusion this of all weeks doesn't make much sense.
Eli carried the 2011 team into the playoffs  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/23/2020 8:35 pm : link
The defense and the running game didn't really get it together until IN the playoffs.
If the Giants would have contiuned to build around Eli I am sure  
Jack Stroud : 1/23/2020 8:39 pm : link
he would have won at least one one SB. The question now is, does Eli get in on the first ballot?
If Plax  
Bradshaw's Decal : 1/23/2020 8:42 pm : link
Doesn't shoot himself, Eli and the Giants win another. That is fact...
The  
thomasa510 : 1/23/2020 8:43 pm : link
The 2007 team was balanced, though Eli was a big part of their success.

In 2011, Eli was the main reason we won
RE: If Plax  
Giants38 : 1/23/2020 8:50 pm : link
In comment 14791505 Bradshaw's Decal said:
Quote:
Doesn't shoot himself, Eli and the Giants win another. That is fact...


We'd have been in great position, but nothing is ever guaranteed. And if that happens, do we draft Nicks? At that point, does 2011 happen then? Yes, I would have loved to see us get the chance to repeat, but it didn't happen. At least we won another one.

A team that is probably still lamenting a call - the Seahawks. If they call a simple run play at the 1 for Lynch, they are champs. Instead, that play busted the team down the seams.
Adding up both SB runs  
montanagiant : 1/23/2020 8:52 pm : link
15 TDs to 2 Int's
2073 yards
Avg Completion % = 62%
Yards per passing attempt = 7.2
Yards per complition = 11.7
QBR = 99%
Sacked = 20 times
4th qtr comebacks = 4
Game Winning Drives = 5

By those stats alone he should be in the HoF

I have no idea what media...  
bw in dc : 1/23/2020 8:58 pm : link
you are watching, but nearly everything I watched has been effusive in praising Eli's career. And the SB runs have been underscored as huge reason why he'll get into Canton...
Let me know when Dilfer or Johnson get in Eli’s ....  
Crispino : 1/23/2020 8:59 pm : link
stratosphere as far as career passing yards and touchdowns, never mind the TWO SB MVP’s against Brady and the Pats.
RE: I have no idea what media...  
John In CO : 1/23/2020 9:05 pm : link
In comment 14791520 bw in dc said:
Quote:
you are watching, but nearly everything I watched has been effusive in praising Eli's career. And the SB runs have been underscored as huge reason why he'll get into Canton...


Guess it depends on who you are listening to. I woke up this morning to a discussion on the local sports radio where the hosts were absolutely stunned that Eli would even be considered for the HOF. Pretty much claimed that the defense was mostly reponsible for the 2 SB's and when the question was raised "why did they only go 9-7" the answer was simple: Because Eli Manning sucks.

Ive heard this same claim for years from the majority of non-Giants fans. He just is not well respected outside of NY/NJ by a lot of people.
eli was at his best in the  
japanhead : 1/23/2020 9:07 pm : link
eight most important games of his and the teams career. he was also at his best at lambeau in 2016. for some reason that is diminished among analysts.

i never hear anyone knock rodgers, peyton etc for coming up small in the playoffs. they have, multiple times. peyton lost the colts a SB w his bad play v the saints for christs sake.

eli had two bad playoff games: 2005 v carolina, his first full season as a starter, and 2008 v philadelphia after plax shot himself.

i guess that argument is that the giants weren't a perennial playoff contender and that is because of him? only made the playoffs six of his sixteen seasons (05, 05, 07, 08, 11, 16). but the only game with playoff implications i can recall him blowing is that 2010 eagles game where he fumbled while sliding face first. but that was a team collapse as much as anything.
RE: If Plax  
Mike from Ohio : 1/23/2020 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14791505 Bradshaw's Decal said:
Quote:
Doesn't shoot himself, Eli and the Giants win another. That is fact...


You may be a little confused about what a fact is.
Mikey  
Bradshaw's Decal : 1/23/2020 9:27 pm : link
Change "It's a fact" to "your a douche canoe " .I obviously wasn't being serious, asswipe.
The 08 team was a great team  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/23/2020 9:30 pm : link
Better than 07 for m9st of the season. But by tge time that Eagles playoff game came around th he wheels were coming off that defense and it showed in thar game big-time.

Not sure Plax gets them another ring. Can't know for sure obviously. But the state of that banged up defense casts doubt even without the gun thing.
I tuned into ESPN for a sec  
Bill L : 1/23/2020 9:52 pm : link
And a caller was talking about comparing Eli and Ben. He said that Ben has been doing charities the last few years so the off-field parts of them is a wash.

Wtf?

To be fair, that’s all I heard so I don’t know if there was follow up but...wtf?
RE: The 08 team was a great team  
japanhead : 1/23/2020 9:53 pm : link
In comment 14791547 Sneakers O'toole said:
Quote:
Better than 07 for m9st of the season. But by tge time that Eagles playoff game came around th he wheels were coming off that defense and it showed in thar game big-time.

Not sure Plax gets them another ring. Can't know for sure obviously. But the state of that banged up defense casts doubt even without the gun thing.


fred robbins came to play in that 08 eagles playoff game. the offense was more of a mess that day than the defense.
I completely agree  
Leg of Theismann : 1/23/2020 10:03 pm : link
The 2007 team had ONE pro bowler (Osi)... the 2011 team had TWO pro bowlers, and one of those was Eli!! Those teams were 10-6 and 9-7. Where is this notion coming from that Eli was "carried" by these historically great teams with all these hall of famers?

Meanwhile why don't we ever hear about how Bradshaw was "carried" to SB wins by the great Steel Curtain and a slew of HOFers on offense in Swann, Stallworth, Harris?

Why don't we hear about how Montana was "carried" by those great defenses and the greatest WR in the history of the game?

What about Brady and those teams built by and coached by the greatest coach/GM in history? He wasn't "carried" by those teams?

What QB in history has won a super bowl without a great team around him? Name one. Even Peyton didn't win one until he actually had a pretty good defense on the other side of the ball, and oh by the way he was throwing to a HOFer in Harrison and another potential HOFer in Edgerrin James.

Eli meanwhile didn't have a single pro bowl player, much less HOFer, on either of those offenses the years that he won.

So let me get this straight: the other multiple SB MVP winners in Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, and Starr weren't "carried" by their teams (even though each one of those guys was on the "dynasty" team of their decade/era), and they're all 1st ballot HOFers. Eli on the other hand, relative to other Super Bowl teams, had barely any household names, guys who couldn't even make the pro bowl much less the HOF despite playing in NY, and yet he was "carried" by those teams and therefore doesn't deserve squat. OK, got it.

They literally have it completely backward and it's absolutely infuriating.
Japanhead  
Sneakers O'toole : 1/23/2020 10:07 pm : link
Tge pass rush was in slow motion and couldn't take advantage of an equally injured and slow Jon Runyen. Watch that game again, they look like they're running in quicksand.

Both offenses were a mess because of the weather. But that defense was just out of gas. Robbins or not.
...  
christian : 1/23/2020 10:13 pm : link
I consume a ton of media about the Giants and I genuinely don't hear anywhere near as much criticism of Manning.

Maybe I'm not tuning in to shows where fans are chiming in?

Is it mostly fans who express these views?

I feel like the local and national media really respect Manning.
By the way... That 2011 postseason in particular:  
Leg of Theismann : 1/23/2020 10:17 pm : link
Did you know Eli holds the record for most passing yards in a single postseason (1,219)? And he had a 9:1 TD:INT ratio. If you look at it historically, it's quite honestly a lock for top 3 postseason performance by a QB in HISTORY.

How does no one seem to remember that aside from Giants fans???

From that year, he also holds the record for most 4th quarter TD passes in a single season (15) and most 4th quarter comebacks in a single season (8). Also almost 5,000 yards passing during the regular season.

Whenever they say "was Eli ever a top 3 player at his position?" Why do people never just say: "Yes, in 2011."

I would even make the argument that considering the lack of pro bowlers on that 2011 roster, considering that team was 9-7 during the regular season... 2011 was a perfect example of one guy, a QB, putting a mediocre team on his back and carrying them to a super bowl victory thanks to consistently stellar play AND delivering at all of the right moments in the clutch.

Seriously, when has a QB's performance ever been MORE important to a team's super bowl win than Eli Manning was in 2011? Without Eli leading all those 4th quarter comebacks, that team very well could have gone like 4-12. I've heard people say that 2011 Giants team was the "worst team to ever win a super bowl." I certainly don't believe that, but my point is you can't have it both ways: Eli being "carried" by his great team, but his team also somehow is the worst to ever win it all?

When has a QB been MORE important to and instrumental in a team's super bowl run than Eli Manning in 2011? That's a serious question that I think is actually at least worthy of a debate.






RE: By the way... That 2011 postseason in particular:  
montanagiant : 1/23/2020 10:34 pm : link
In comment 14791599 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
Did you know Eli holds the record for most passing yards in a single postseason (1,219)? And he had a 9:1 TD:INT ratio. If you look at it historically, it's quite honestly a lock for top 3 postseason performance by a QB in HISTORY.

How does no one seem to remember that aside from Giants fans???

From that year, he also holds the record for most 4th quarter TD passes in a single season (15) and most 4th quarter comebacks in a single season (8). Also almost 5,000 yards passing during the regular season.

Whenever they say "was Eli ever a top 3 player at his position?" Why do people never just say: "Yes, in 2011."

I would even make the argument that considering the lack of pro bowlers on that 2011 roster, considering that team was 9-7 during the regular season... 2011 was a perfect example of one guy, a QB, putting a mediocre team on his back and carrying them to a super bowl victory thanks to consistently stellar play AND delivering at all of the right moments in the clutch.

Seriously, when has a QB's performance ever been MORE important to a team's super bowl win than Eli Manning was in 2011? Without Eli leading all those 4th quarter comebacks, that team very well could have gone like 4-12. I've heard people say that 2011 Giants team was the "worst team to ever win a super bowl." I certainly don't believe that, but my point is you can't have it both ways: Eli being "carried" by his great team, but his team also somehow is the worst to ever win it all?

When has a QB been MORE important to and instrumental in a team's super bowl run than Eli Manning in 2011? That's a serious question that I think is actually at least worthy of a debate.






Great post
RE: Mikey  
Mike from Ohio : 1/23/2020 10:50 pm : link
In comment 14791541 Bradshaw's Decal said:
Quote:
Change "It's a fact" to "your a douche canoe " .I obviously wasn't being serious, asswipe.


You’re right. You seem like a real jovial, easy going guy with a great sense of humor. My bad.
I've got nothing to say about small recreational  
CT Charlie : 1/23/2020 11:19 pm : link
paddle craft, but I will say that I hope the pro-Eli arguments here are widely disseminated over the next 5 years. It is Eli's body of work in those eight playoff games that ought to tip the scales in his favor. His work in the Super Bowls themselves was just an extension of what had come before.
Mikey  
Bradshaw's Decal : 1/23/2020 11:44 pm : link
You seem like the kind of guy that complains about everything... Bet you tell your wife she gives a bad blowjob... All you ever do here is look to contradict.
RE: I completely agree great post.  
Rolyrock : 1/24/2020 2:11 am : link
In comment 14791582 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
The 2007 team had ONE pro bowler (Osi)... the 2011 team had TWO pro bowlers, and one of those was Eli!! Those teams were 10-6 and 9-7. Where is this notion coming from that Eli was "carried" by these historically great teams with all these hall of famers?

Meanwhile why don't we ever hear about how Bradshaw was "carried" to SB wins by the great Steel Curtain and a slew of HOFers on offense in Swann, Stallworth, Harris?

Why don't we hear about how Montana was "carried" by those great defenses and the greatest WR in the history of the game?

What about Brady and those teams built by and coached by the greatest coach/GM in history? He wasn't "carried" by those teams?

What QB in history has won a super bowl without a great team around him? Name one. Even Peyton didn't win one until he actually had a pretty good defense on the other side of the ball, and oh by the way he was throwing to a HOFer in Harrison and another potential HOFer in Edgerrin James.

Eli meanwhile didn't have a single pro bowl player, much less HOFer, on either of those offenses the years that he won.

So let me get this straight: the other multiple SB MVP winners in Bradshaw, Montana, Brady, and Starr weren't "carried" by their teams (even though each one of those guys was on the "dynasty" team of their decade/era), and they're all 1st ballot HOFers. Eli on the other hand, relative to other Super Bowl teams, had barely any household names, guys who couldn't even make the pro bowl much less the HOF despite playing in NY, and yet he was "carried" by those teams and therefore doesn't deserve squat. OK, got it.

They literally have it completely backward and it's absolutely infuriating.
The media conspiracy against the Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 1/24/2020 6:16 am : link
strikes yet again...
Who cares about any narrative  
joeinpa : 1/24/2020 8:07 am : link
Eli will be voted in or not based on his merit.
FWIW, that  
section125 : 1/24/2020 8:33 am : link
2008 team likely is odds on favorite to win the SB if Plax doesn't shoot himself. I doubt they fall apart. That incident had a severe ripple effect through the team, especially on defense with Pierce caught in the middle.

At the time the Giants were the best team in football. Nothing is guaranteed, but that was a powerful team that knew how to win in the playoff.
RE: FWIW, that  
crick n NC : 1/24/2020 8:39 am : link
In comment 14791778 section125 said:
Quote:
2008 team likely is odds on favorite to win the SB if Plax doesn't shoot himself. I doubt they fall apart. That incident had a severe ripple effect through the team, especially on defense with Pierce caught in the middle.

At the time the Giants were the best team in football. Nothing is guaranteed, but that was a powerful team that knew how to win in the playoff.



The giants not only missed Burress in the passing game, but also in the run game. Pretty good blocker.
you know in the video of Peyton reminiscing about Eli  
gidiefor : Mod : 1/24/2020 8:49 am : link
he said that he [Peyton] never won up in Lambeau field. He said you just don't go up there and beat the Pack and especially in those conditions

He also mentioned just how dominant the 18-0 Patriots were, and that he [Peyton] had lost to them that year

I have the tapes of both of those Superbowl runs and I watch them from time to time - and they were just frikken awesome!!!! Eli deserved to be MVP in both of those Superbowls. They were historic. The comeback drive in the first one was an iconic series of plays -- but so were the games leading up to it.

you are right two steps -- awesome post -- Eli is an iconic part of NFL history -- rarified air. You can't take that away from him and he deserves to be recognized for it.
RE: Mikey  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 10:02 am : link
In comment 14791662 Bradshaw's Decal said:
Quote:
You seem like the kind of guy that complains about everything... Bet you tell your wife she gives a bad blowjob... All you ever do here is look to contradict.


Not at all. I poked some fun at you based on something you said. I didn't realize you were really sensitive and it would upset you so much. My apologies, and I will refrain from commenting on anything you post going forward.

I sometimes forget how worked up people get by words. Good reminder.
I think the only case against is Eli  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:38 am : link
is the wild inconsistency throughout his career, and you could say he was rarely a top 5 QB except for a select few seasons. He was a .500 QB ... he was a great playoff QB and gets a huge bump for it, but was he truly "great" across the board?

The bar for the NFL HoF isn't as high as it used to be, I think he'll get in. But, if he doesn't the argument is there.
Also to consider...  
Amtoft : 1/24/2020 11:57 am : link
Not only does he have 2 SBs but he will finish top 10 in almost all major categories. Other fluke QBs can't say that. With his stats and 2 SB MVPs no way he doesn't get in.

7th all time in yards
7th all time in TD passes
7th in passes completions


The totality of career vs two SuperBowls  
fanatic II : 1/24/2020 11:58 am : link
That's the argument for Manning in the HOF.

Was Manning one of the top QBs during his career. Was Manning mentioned when the question was asked, "who are the best QBs in the league today?".

Manning's career is more similar to Jim Plunkett's, not that of Dilfer or others that have won one Super Bowl.

Years Manning 16, Plunkett 15
SBs Manning 2, Plunkett 1
MVPs Manning 2, Plunkett 1
Playoffs Manning 6, Plunkett 4
Playoff wins/losses Manning 8 and 4, Plunkett 8 and 2
Wins Manning 117/117, Plunkett 72/72
TD% Manning 4.5, Pulnkett 4.4
YPA Manning 7.0, Plunkett 7.0

Overall Manning is statistically better in every category than Plunkett. But will his two championship seasons be enough to overcome the other 14 seasons?
as i said before, people call Eli lucky...  
GMAN4LIFE : 1/24/2020 12:00 pm : link
Ask the number of NFL teams what they would do for that type of luck. Thats not luck.

Eli will get in. Fuck the haters
Made mistake  
fanatic II : 1/24/2020 12:02 pm : link
Plunkett won two Super Bowls
RE: as i said before, people call Eli lucky...  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14792255 GMAN4LIFE said:
Quote:
Ask the number of NFL teams what they would do for that type of luck. Thats not luck.

Eli will get in. Fuck the haters


He will get in. You don't end up in the top 10 in most passing categories all time and win two Superbowl MVPs because you are a really lucky guy. As someone said above, it is the inconsistency that is the biggest negative. He likely won't get it on the first ballot, but he will get in relatively quickly after that.

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