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Mel Kipers first Mock Draft has NYG taking

RichYern : 1/24/2020 8:18 am
LB Isaiah Simmons

Burrow
C Young
Okuah
Simmons
TUA
Hebert

Thoughts?
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The more I hear  
Dnew15 : 1/24/2020 9:49 am : link
and read about Simmons the more I think we already 2 players just like him in Peppers and Love.

Maybe they can play all three on the field at the same time, but they better sign Williams to keep offensive linemen off Simmons, Love and Peppers in order for this plan to work.
RE: My dream scenario is a flip-flop with Miami  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 9:49 am : link
In comment 14791783 Chris684 said:
Quote:
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.

If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.


If they were willing to give that up, then the trade for them is with the Lions at #3 and not us at #4.
RE: RE: Yuck  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:50 am : link
In comment 14791899 2cents said:
Quote:
In comment 14791792 JonC said:


Quote:


You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.



man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.


A LB has to be physical, has to play the run with a vengeance and be willing to mix it up in traffic, he's a tone setter! Simmons is none of these when I've watched him play. I think his supporters are overly wow'd by his speed and coverage abilities, which are plus and unusual. But, I want gamechangers and football is a physical game. I don't want run and chase players who project better to S at #4 of the draft. I'd rather run Peppers out there and find a FS of value who can cover.
RE: It all depends on the evaluation and grade  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 9:56 am : link
In comment 14791878 JonC said:
Quote:
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.


This +1,000

Going into the draft trying to plug a hole with a guy who is the best available at that position alone is how you get reaches. Agree WR is not a premium need position (although the position needs an upgrade) but don't draft the next Pugh or Flowers just because the OL currently sucks.
RE: He also comments  
Rjanyg : 1/24/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14791772 Judgment Day said:
Quote:
This is a good spot for an ascending pass rushers. If someone emerges.


K'Lavon Chaisson is a guy I see flying up draft boards and he will get major love once the Combine happens.

He is a leader, has excellent football IQ and is a freak athlete. He has recently been mocked to the NY Jets with pick 11 by Daniel Jeramiah and I think that is a possibility.

He is the kind of player the Ravens select then he turns into an all pro.
RE: the trade down talk  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 14791865 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.


Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.
Make no mistake about it  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:05 am : link
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.

The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
RE: Make no mistake about it  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:10 am : link
In comment 14791939 JonC said:
Quote:
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.

The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.


You build a strong running and play action game through the OL. The Flowers pick was a fail no doubt, but it can't be ignored in the draft because of it.
That's not what I'm saying  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:13 am : link
I'm saying they need to get their evaluations of OL corrected, and then the OL picks will flow without anymore Flowers-type reaches. If this crop of OL doesn't earn the grade for #4 overall, you pass on them or trade down to where it makes sense.
Flowers was awful  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:14 am : link
but if we are too scared to go OL early because of that pick, that is extremely shortsighted. Same thing can be said for Eli Apple. Doesn't mean we shouldn't take Okudah if he's available at 4.
You aren't reading  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:19 am : link
.
Drafting of OL  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:21 am : link
I feel with this staff and especially Garretts input on the OL draftees, they will have better evaluations on the OL in this draft than in the prior drafts.
...  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:21 am : link
why are we all of a sudden comparing Jabrill Peppers to Simmons? Completely different athletes, not even in the same category actually. Peppers is barely 6 feet and weighed 212 at the combine, he played close to 200 pounds at Michigan.

Isaiah Simmons is 6'3, 230, and had significantly more production at Clemson.

This whole "hybrid" thing doesn't mean that him and Peppers are the same. Simmons is just as big, if not bigger, than a lot of quality starting linebackers in the NFL. We need to stop this notion that he's a safety.
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:23 am : link
I'm reading what you're saying. It's all about the evaluation, I get it.

My point is, it seems every year we are too scared away by some "flaw" or some trait in this player that won't make him worth the pick, and then some other team takes him and he becomes a pro bowler.

I get that we have to turn over every stone and do our homework, but there comes a point where it gets to be too much, and we will be waiting for the perfect prospect until Daniel Jones is 30 years old. They don't exist.
In my opinion  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:24 am : link
it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.
You spend the next 3 months  
Dankbeerman : 1/24/2020 10:25 am : link
determaning who the best OL is in the draft. They you draft him at 4 or if you can drop a couple spots and still think he is there you do it.

But dont forget that Miami, LAC, Ariz Cleveland and the Jets have clear needs at Tackle.
Someone will fall in love with Tua  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:26 am : link
He brings that It factor to the table, Mahomes-esque. Should be good for Giants.

I don't love Burrows. Checks off all the boxes, but seems to be a glorified Haskins.
This is madness  
ghost718 : 1/24/2020 10:27 am : link
My guess is Simmons ends up going 10-15
RE: In my opinion  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14791978 JonC said:
Quote:
it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.

Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?
ryan  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:28 am : link
and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.
RE: RE: In my opinion  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 14791986 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14791978 JonC said:


Quote:


it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.


Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?


Jesus Christ, no. I played the game of football, I know what a LB should be capable of, as well as a SS and FS. This kid sets off AVOID alarm bells every time I watch him play up front. Further, his physical build is a problem. There are few if any LBs in the NFL with those super skinny legs and slight frame. Everyone keeps pointing to the kid in Buffalo, but he's a totally different type of player and 250 lbs.
We really are in a hope for a quality offer to trade down position  
UberAlias : 1/24/2020 10:34 am : link
That could change should a player or two rise during the evaluation process, but where we sit today, I just don't see a blue chipper, especially at a position of high value, being available. We can still get a good player at better value in a trade down situation.

Yes, DG has never pulled the trigger on a trade down, but Joe Judge could be a bit of a wild card here --they are all about economical value in New England, and in that sense our situation screams deal down.
RE: ryan  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:36 am : link
In comment 14791987 JonC said:
Quote:
and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.


Jerry Reese and company were terrible evaluators of OL. I have confidence with Garrett's input in the draft, that will change.

RE: RE: Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 14791856 jnoble said:
Quote:
In comment 14791846 Klaatu said:


Quote:


And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"



A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who


I give Kiper a ton of credit for essentially creating his own industry. Let's face it, he's doing a job that most of us would kill to do (and as you said, he's getting paid a lot of money to do it). Every draft "guru," "pundit," "prognosticator," whatever, owes a debt of gratitude to Mel Kiper.

However, he's not getting paid to be right - he's getting paid to be interesting. He's getting paid to be provocative as well as informative, and there's no denying that he is both. Unlike, say, Mike Mayock, who made the jump from pundit to GM, his job isn't on the line if he makes the wrong choices, so he's free to screw up as often as he likes, as long as his readers and viewers keep coming back for more.
Lions are in the trade down driver's seat, unfortunately  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:40 am : link
which is why we probably will need Herbert to rise rapidly and hook a team to trade up with us.
RE: RE: RE: In my opinion  
Now Mike in MD : 1/24/2020 10:41 am : link
In comment 14791988 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14791986 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 14791978 JonC said:


Quote:


it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.


Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?



Jesus Christ, no. I played the game of football, I know what a LB should be capable of, as well as a SS and FS. This kid sets off AVOID alarm bells every time I watch him play up front. Further, his physical build is a problem. There are few if any LBs in the NFL with those super skinny legs and slight frame. Everyone keeps pointing to the kid in Buffalo, but he's a totally different type of player and 250 lbs.


I've said it before, he reminds me of a flightly faster (but lighter) Leonard Floyd. Same problems playing LB. Too light to set the edge and will get swallowed up if an OL gets his hands on him. Floyd can'd do it at 240, and I don't see how Simmons can do it at 230. Geez even Carter has trouble playing at LB at 250, but same build problems. Light in the pants. You heard the same things about Floyd pre draft. So fast and twitchy for a LB, but he can't do all the things an NFL LBer must do. IMO, you don't pick a Floyd clone at 4.
Now Mike  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:45 am : link
You got it. I went through a similar debate with posters who loved Floyd, and Floyd's exactly what I thought he'd be in the NFL. No lead in his pants, not a gamechanger, and he's got Mack opposite him! He stands out when he flips his hips and chases down receivers, but where's the impact up front? There is none.

Even if we're multiple on defense, I want different beasts in the front seven, JS doesn't fit mine.
RE: RE: ryan  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:48 am : link
In comment 14791996 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791987 JonC said:


Quote:


and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.



Jerry Reese and company were terrible evaluators of OL. I have confidence with Garrett's input in the draft, that will change.

I just noticed, Garrett was the guy spreading the virus at the airport in 12 Monkies! Wish I noticed it before, could of had more fun with that when he was at Dallas. Dammit.
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:49 am : link
we can agree to disagree. I think Simmons is a rare talent. Good coaches will be able to put this guy in multiple positions where he can impact the game all over the field. Is that worth the 4th pick? Maybe. Depends on his work ethic and will to be great. If he has that, I think he's worth it.
ryan  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:50 am : link
We can agree, but then you have to stop asking me questions about him, lol.
RE: ryan  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:54 am : link
In comment 14792033 JonC said:
Quote:
We can agree, but then you have to stop asking me questions about him, lol.

haha. ok, deal!
We would need to scheme Simmons  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:55 am : link
Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.
Why is Herbert such a hard name for people to spell?  
Giants in 07 : 1/24/2020 10:59 am : link
Honestly
Thing about Mock Drafts...  
JB_in_DC : 1/24/2020 11:21 am : link
its a pointless exercise (even compared to mock drafts in general) to mock draft pick trades. But that is the best case scenario for us. When you start weighing the pros and cons of all these prospects you get overwhelmed by the depth of this teams' needs. O Line, Defense Back 7, WR all need serious addressing.
RE: We would need to scheme Simmons  
Now Mike in MD : 1/24/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14792041 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.


Totaly different builds. Same weight but simmons is 4 inches taller
Simmons is a excellent player.  
JerrysKids : 1/24/2020 11:33 am : link
Not sure if he worth the 4th pick, seems to me that he would be a late 1st rounder.
I do like either line backer / pass rusher  
JerrysKids : 1/24/2020 11:34 am : link
or offensive line.
RE: RE: We would need to scheme Simmons  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 11:36 am : link
In comment 14792144 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 14792041 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.



Totaly different builds. Same weight but simmons is 4 inches taller

Still can see Simmons in a similar role, others take on the blocks and leave Simmons to fly all over the field making clean tackles. And a big + in coverage to boot.
People  
Amtoft : 1/24/2020 11:42 am : link
forget there will be players that rise and fall drastically before the draft. Jared Goff many thought was a 3rd rounder and ended up going #1 overall. Geno Smith was a lock top 3 player and slipped to the second round. A lot will happen before the draft and it is starting now at the senior bowl. If Simmons comes in and runs a 4.34 at the combine at 230 lbs you can bet he will be way up there and if he runs a 4.7 he will slip. Nature of the beast.
Joel Buschbaum was the man who popularized the NFL draft, his booklet  
plato : 1/24/2020 12:04 pm : link
was required reading by all. Kipper was a late comer who had a ďTVĒ persona, mostly a lot of hair and a midwestern accent. Buchsbaum labored behind a brooklyn jewish accent and persona. But He was the guy who really was the model for much that followed. Unfortunately he died much too young. I suspect he was too young to capitalize as well. But his draft pamphlets were on the money whereas Kiper is BS artist who is almost always wrong.

Just for the record, although itís my opinion .
Buchsbaum was the man, the original  
JonC : 1/24/2020 12:13 pm : link
appearing only in PFW in print. PFW was a must read for me before the Internet era, I still miss getting them in my snail mail. Kiper I'd say took it to the next level and got connected into ESPN a few years later.
Trade down with Oakland  
WillVAB : 1/24/2020 12:42 pm : link
For 12 and 19. Thatís where I think the value sweet spot is for ER and OL. Then take Biadasz at 40 and everyone here will be doing cart wheels.

I donít see the benefit of just sliding down a spot or two. Thereís no one I really Love projected to top 10.

Getting 12 and 19 opens up the Giants draft to get two quality players at positions of need.
I think Tua goes third  
Vanzetti : 1/24/2020 12:43 pm : link
If Lions were smart, they would take him. But a team that has only won one playoff game in the last 60 years is obviously not smart. So they will likely keep
Stafford

But some other team will trade up to get him

I
...  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 12:46 pm : link
if we are being honest, the Lions should probably draft Tua
We draft Pugh and Flowers  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/24/2020 12:58 pm : link
Still people think gircing is a pick at OT is a good idea.

You cant draft players that aren't there. Meaning, if you take a OT at number 4 that in itself doesn't make him an elite OT.
*forcing a pick  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/24/2020 12:58 pm : link
.
LGG  
JonC : 1/24/2020 1:08 pm : link
Correct, and drafting the best OT doesn't make them the best use of the pick, regardless of need.
RE: We draft Pugh and Flowers  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14792392 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
Still people think gircing is a pick at OT is a good idea.

You cant draft players that aren't there. Meaning, if you take a OT at number 4 that in itself doesn't make him an elite OT.


Unless their value is there for an OT in which case the Giants need to select one.
RE: RE: the trade down talk  
allstarjim : 1/24/2020 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14791932 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791865 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.



Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.


You are probably right, but this draft presents a rare opportunity with the Giants drafting at #4, and a team that is very clearly coveting a franchise QB drafting at #5, with others that will undoubtedly want to leapfrog (the Dolphins) to get their guy, whether it be Tua or even potentially Herbert. And to boot, these teams have, in some cases, tremendous draft capital.

Situationally speaking only, this is a unique and rare position that, especially if Detroit stays home at #3, could prove VERY profitable for the Giants to move out of #4. It's almost a given the offers (very strong offers) will come in should Detroit stay home and take a non-QB.
Simmons is a fine LB  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2020 4:24 pm : link
in a passing league, he can remain on the field for all 3 downs compared to a 2 down thumper. He's worth the #4 pick.
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