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Mel Kipers first Mock Draft has NYG taking

RichYern : 1/24/2020 8:18 am
LB Isaiah Simmons

Burrow
C Young
Okuah
Simmons
TUA
Hebert

Thoughts?
Detroit is the wildcard  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 8:21 am : link
.
As things appear as we stand here now  
UberAlias : 1/24/2020 8:21 am : link
In that situation, we should work hard to deal the pick. But let's see how the evaluation process evolves.
RE: Detroit is the wildcard  
section125 : 1/24/2020 8:22 am : link
In comment 14791760 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
.


Yes they are. They could open the QB flood gates with a trade.
If the Dolphins and Chargers like Tua and Herbert enough...  
Milton : 1/24/2020 8:24 am : link
...to take them 5 and 6, then they like them enough to trade up with one of the teams in front of them in order to ensure that they get their guy.
I hope there's a good O lineman  
cjac : 1/24/2020 8:25 am : link
in the second round.
RE: As things appear as we stand here now  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/24/2020 8:25 am : link
In comment 14791761 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In that situation, we should work hard to deal the pick. But let's see how the evaluation process evolves.


Yep. Make one of the guys looking for a QB leap the other one.
He also comments  
Judgment Day : 1/24/2020 8:28 am : link
This is a good spot for an ascending pass rushers. If someone emerges.
RE: If the Dolphins and Chargers like Tua and Herbert enough...  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 8:32 am : link
In comment 14791765 Milton said:
Quote:
...to take them 5 and 6, then they like them enough to trade up with one of the teams in front of them in order to ensure that they get their guy.


That team would probably be Detroit, which makes them the biggest wildcard in the draft, especially given Gettlemanís and the Giants in general history of not trading down in the drafts.
RE: I hope there's a good O lineman  
Joey in VA : 1/24/2020 8:33 am : link
In comment 14791768 cjac said:
Quote:
in the second round.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
My dream scenario is a flip-flop with Miami  
Chris684 : 1/24/2020 8:37 am : link
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.

If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
RE: RE: I hope there's a good O lineman  
Giantsfan79 : 1/24/2020 8:39 am : link
In comment 14791779 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14791768 cjac said:


Quote:


in the second round.

You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.


Don't know if you say Sy's post yesterday but he feels all the top o-line prospects have "warts" mostly technique wise, and he believes the Giants could find a good tackle or center in round 2.
Yuck  
JonC : 1/24/2020 8:42 am : link
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.
RE: RE: I hope there's a good O lineman  
barens : 1/24/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14791779 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14791768 cjac said:


Quote:


in the second round.

You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.


Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?
Don't you think  
Maijay : 1/24/2020 8:55 am : link
that if the Giants are active in free agency this will point in what direction the team goes in the draft? For example, if they only get Conklin would they target Simmons or Okuah?
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.
RE: Yuck  
90.Cal : 1/24/2020 8:58 am : link
In comment 14791792 JonC said:
Quote:
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.


How far back in the round are you willing to go? For me it's the Panthers or Chargers pick or stay put and grab someone at 4.
Agree on Yuck  
arniefez : 1/24/2020 8:59 am : link
another fancy guy. The Giants need steak not sizzle.
RE: RE: RE: I hope there's a good O lineman  
Giantsfan79 : 1/24/2020 9:01 am : link
In comment 14791807 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 14791779 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


In comment 14791768 cjac said:


Quote:


in the second round.

You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.



Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?


right so do you counter that by taking a tackle @4 because you don't think the guy you'll get in R2 has as much upside, but the guy you took @4 has technique issues and takes some plays off?

Would hate to draft a tackle @4 only for him to turn into Erick Flowers II.
Everyone wants  
allstarjim : 1/24/2020 9:03 am : link
The Giants to drop down to #5 for what? So they don't miss out on Simmons? I believe Simmons actually has a low floor.

The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.

If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.

This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.
The best possible scenario for the Giants(I'm going to  
barens : 1/24/2020 9:04 am : link
leave out the illusion that Chase Young will be around), is if Detroit takes a QB at 3. Then, the teams that want a QB will get jumpy and willing to pull the trigger on who's left between Tua or Herbert.
RE: RE: Yuck  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:05 am : link
In comment 14791811 90.Cal said:
Quote:
In comment 14791792 JonC said:


Quote:


You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.



How far back in the round are you willing to go? For me it's the Panthers or Chargers pick or stay put and grab someone at 4.


In that ballpark, I want an extra #2 or two to move down. With the move down, an OT or WR becomes more palatable.
RE: Don't you think  
DonnieD89 : 1/24/2020 9:07 am : link
In comment 14791808 Maijay said:
Quote:
that if the Giants are active in free agency this will point in what direction the team goes in the draft? For example, if they only get Conklin would they target Simmons or Okuah?
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.


+1. Yep!
'then they like them enough to trade up to get their guy'  
Torrag : 1/24/2020 9:08 am : link
Agreed. Herbert's Senior Bowl week to me significantly increased the odds of us trading down. There are now three legit QB's worthy of a Top 5 slot. Trading down would be my preferred scenario while staying within the Top 10 and take an OT while fortifying our Draft.

I would add I like the Simmons pick if the offers aren't there to move. He's a dynamic athlete and has a multiple skillset that suits today's game to a tee. He'll need a coaching staff capable of thinking outside the box to maximize his elite playmaking abilities.
RE: As things appear as we stand here now  
Justlurking : 1/24/2020 9:08 am : link
In comment 14791761 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In that situation, we should work hard to deal the pick. But let's see how the evaluation process evolves.


If the 2 qbs are on the board they have to trade down. There will be offers. Someone is going to fall in love with Herbert or Tua
Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 9:09 am : link
And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"
RE: The best possible scenario for the Giants(I'm going to  
allstarjim : 1/24/2020 9:09 am : link
In comment 14791831 barens said:
Quote:
leave out the illusion that Chase Young will be around), is if Detroit takes a QB at 3. Then, the teams that want a QB will get jumpy and willing to pull the trigger on who's left between Tua or Herbert.


That's not at all best case. I'm pretty sure teams will be eyeing Tua specifically and will pay a greater premium for him. Herbert is possible, but I don't believe teams will fight over him like they would Tua.

Remember, there's still Eason, Love, Fromm, and Hurts. Teams may not see it worth it to trade up unless they believe they are getting a superstar, and That has that ability. Not so sure about Herbert, so they may want to wait to get a chance to work with any of the other guys.
Simmons is the type of guy  
UConn4523 : 1/24/2020 9:10 am : link
that I think would be a waste under the previous couple regimes. But under Judge and the philosophies he's preaching, you'd think he'd fit like a glove.

I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.
RE: My dream scenario is a flip-flop with Miami  
Justlurking : 1/24/2020 9:12 am : link
In comment 14791783 Chris684 said:
Quote:
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.

If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.


5, 39 and another pick works for me. Fine with flipping 5 if the other QB is still there too. They need to work this draft board. Tons of talent in this draft.
RE: Everyone wants  
Justlurking : 1/24/2020 9:13 am : link
In comment 14791828 allstarjim said:
Quote:
The Giants to drop down to #5 for what? So they don't miss out on Simmons? I believe Simmons actually has a low floor.

The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.

If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.

This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.


Agree.
RE: Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise.  
jnoble : 1/24/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14791846 Klaatu said:
Quote:
And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"


A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who
RE: Simmons is the type of guy  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/24/2020 9:15 am : link
In comment 14791848 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
that I think would be a waste under the previous couple regimes. But under Judge and the philosophies he's preaching, you'd think he'd fit like a glove.

I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.


That's the Wild Card. We don't know yet what Judge (or Graham) think of a player like Simmons. He's a tweener that we've seen in the past become a really effective safety or speed LB. We've also seen that type of player quickly flame out due to being a poor scheme fit.

Judge saying he's not going to be tied to a scheme seems promising, but Simmons does have some weaknesses, especially in run support.
WR  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 9:16 am : link
is a non starter for me in the first round. I'm sorry but the way Gettleman is constructing this team, to go WR would be ridiculous.
WR could be BPA  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:18 am : link
given all the warts on the OT and the lack of pedigree on the Edge prospects. I'd rather not go WR either, but look at how the talent is stacking up so far ...
the trade down talk  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 9:18 am : link
happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.
RE: WR could be BPA  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 9:20 am : link
In comment 14791863 JonC said:
Quote:
given all the warts on the OT and the lack of pedigree on the Edge prospects. I'd rather not go WR either, but look at how the talent is stacking up so far ...

I agree the talent at WR is staggering. But the comments from Judge and Gettleman...it would just shock me if we did that. Our defense is absolutely terrible. And our OL is average/below average. Our WR position group might be the best on the roster.
our WR corps is below average  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:22 am : link
and while what you point out could be accurate, you must consider drafting into the draft's inherent strengths. This is how teams acquire talent. One of them this year is WR, not OL or defense at the top.
In other words, look longer term  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:22 am : link
not solely on 2020.
RE: In other words, look longer term  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 9:25 am : link
In comment 14791871 JonC said:
Quote:
not solely on 2020.

How much longer are we willing to wait? Every year we pass up on OL that end up being really good players.
It all depends on the evaluation and grade  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:29 am : link
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.
RE: RE: In other words, look longer term  
UConn4523 : 1/24/2020 9:31 am : link
In comment 14791874 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14791871 JonC said:


Quote:


not solely on 2020.


How much longer are we willing to wait? Every year we pass up on OL that end up being really good players.


There are other rounds and there's FA. I'd love a blue chip stud OT but if there's question marks about that, don't take one.
RE: RE: Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise.  
markky : 1/24/2020 9:32 am : link
In comment 14791856 jnoble said:
Quote:
In comment 14791846 Klaatu said:


Quote:


And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"



A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who


he's an entertainer. we should be happy that he had a large hand in building the draft entertainment business. without him we wouldn't get so much draft coverage. an analyst? not so much.
RE: It all depends on the evaluation and grade  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 9:43 am : link
In comment 14791878 JonC said:
Quote:
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.


Point taken. I don't want the Giants to force the pick.

However, I'd rather not pick another OBJ while another Donald or Martin are still available.

As underwhelming as our WR corps is, our offensive line is in even sadder shape, as is our overall defense. The strength of the draft notwithstanding, the game is still won in the trenches, and that's where the Giants are sorely lacking, on both sides of the ball.
RE: Yuck  
2cents : 1/24/2020 9:45 am : link
In comment 14791792 JonC said:
Quote:
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.


man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.
The more I hear  
Dnew15 : 1/24/2020 9:49 am : link
and read about Simmons the more I think we already 2 players just like him in Peppers and Love.

Maybe they can play all three on the field at the same time, but they better sign Williams to keep offensive linemen off Simmons, Love and Peppers in order for this plan to work.
RE: My dream scenario is a flip-flop with Miami  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 9:49 am : link
In comment 14791783 Chris684 said:
Quote:
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.

If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.


If they were willing to give that up, then the trade for them is with the Lions at #3 and not us at #4.
RE: RE: Yuck  
JonC : 1/24/2020 9:50 am : link
In comment 14791899 2cents said:
Quote:
In comment 14791792 JonC said:


Quote:


You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.



man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.


A LB has to be physical, has to play the run with a vengeance and be willing to mix it up in traffic, he's a tone setter! Simmons is none of these when I've watched him play. I think his supporters are overly wow'd by his speed and coverage abilities, which are plus and unusual. But, I want gamechangers and football is a physical game. I don't want run and chase players who project better to S at #4 of the draft. I'd rather run Peppers out there and find a FS of value who can cover.
RE: It all depends on the evaluation and grade  
Mike from Ohio : 1/24/2020 9:56 am : link
In comment 14791878 JonC said:
Quote:
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.


This +1,000

Going into the draft trying to plug a hole with a guy who is the best available at that position alone is how you get reaches. Agree WR is not a premium need position (although the position needs an upgrade) but don't draft the next Pugh or Flowers just because the OL currently sucks.
RE: He also comments  
Rjanyg : 1/24/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14791772 Judgment Day said:
Quote:
This is a good spot for an ascending pass rushers. If someone emerges.


K'Lavon Chaisson is a guy I see flying up draft boards and he will get major love once the Combine happens.

He is a leader, has excellent football IQ and is a freak athlete. He has recently been mocked to the NY Jets with pick 11 by Daniel Jeramiah and I think that is a possibility.

He is the kind of player the Ravens select then he turns into an all pro.
RE: the trade down talk  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 14791865 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.


Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.
Make no mistake about it  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:05 am : link
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.

The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
RE: Make no mistake about it  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:10 am : link
In comment 14791939 JonC said:
Quote:
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.

The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.


You build a strong running and play action game through the OL. The Flowers pick was a fail no doubt, but it can't be ignored in the draft because of it.
That's not what I'm saying  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:13 am : link
I'm saying they need to get their evaluations of OL corrected, and then the OL picks will flow without anymore Flowers-type reaches. If this crop of OL doesn't earn the grade for #4 overall, you pass on them or trade down to where it makes sense.
Flowers was awful  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:14 am : link
but if we are too scared to go OL early because of that pick, that is extremely shortsighted. Same thing can be said for Eli Apple. Doesn't mean we shouldn't take Okudah if he's available at 4.
You aren't reading  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:19 am : link
.
Drafting of OL  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:21 am : link
I feel with this staff and especially Garretts input on the OL draftees, they will have better evaluations on the OL in this draft than in the prior drafts.
...  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:21 am : link
why are we all of a sudden comparing Jabrill Peppers to Simmons? Completely different athletes, not even in the same category actually. Peppers is barely 6 feet and weighed 212 at the combine, he played close to 200 pounds at Michigan.

Isaiah Simmons is 6'3, 230, and had significantly more production at Clemson.

This whole "hybrid" thing doesn't mean that him and Peppers are the same. Simmons is just as big, if not bigger, than a lot of quality starting linebackers in the NFL. We need to stop this notion that he's a safety.
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:23 am : link
I'm reading what you're saying. It's all about the evaluation, I get it.

My point is, it seems every year we are too scared away by some "flaw" or some trait in this player that won't make him worth the pick, and then some other team takes him and he becomes a pro bowler.

I get that we have to turn over every stone and do our homework, but there comes a point where it gets to be too much, and we will be waiting for the perfect prospect until Daniel Jones is 30 years old. They don't exist.
In my opinion  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:24 am : link
it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.
You spend the next 3 months  
Dankbeerman : 1/24/2020 10:25 am : link
determaning who the best OL is in the draft. They you draft him at 4 or if you can drop a couple spots and still think he is there you do it.

But dont forget that Miami, LAC, Ariz Cleveland and the Jets have clear needs at Tackle.
Someone will fall in love with Tua  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:26 am : link
He brings that It factor to the table, Mahomes-esque. Should be good for Giants.

I don't love Burrows. Checks off all the boxes, but seems to be a glorified Haskins.
This is madness  
ghost718 : 1/24/2020 10:27 am : link
My guess is Simmons ends up going 10-15
RE: In my opinion  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14791978 JonC said:
Quote:
it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.

Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?
ryan  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:28 am : link
and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.
RE: RE: In my opinion  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 14791986 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
In comment 14791978 JonC said:


Quote:


it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.


Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?


Jesus Christ, no. I played the game of football, I know what a LB should be capable of, as well as a SS and FS. This kid sets off AVOID alarm bells every time I watch him play up front. Further, his physical build is a problem. There are few if any LBs in the NFL with those super skinny legs and slight frame. Everyone keeps pointing to the kid in Buffalo, but he's a totally different type of player and 250 lbs.
We really are in a hope for a quality offer to trade down position  
UberAlias : 1/24/2020 10:34 am : link
That could change should a player or two rise during the evaluation process, but where we sit today, I just don't see a blue chipper, especially at a position of high value, being available. We can still get a good player at better value in a trade down situation.

Yes, DG has never pulled the trigger on a trade down, but Joe Judge could be a bit of a wild card here --they are all about economical value in New England, and in that sense our situation screams deal down.
RE: ryan  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 10:36 am : link
In comment 14791987 JonC said:
Quote:
and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.


Jerry Reese and company were terrible evaluators of OL. I have confidence with Garrett's input in the draft, that will change.

RE: RE: Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise.  
Klaatu : 1/24/2020 10:37 am : link
In comment 14791856 jnoble said:
Quote:
In comment 14791846 Klaatu said:


Quote:


And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"



A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who


I give Kiper a ton of credit for essentially creating his own industry. Let's face it, he's doing a job that most of us would kill to do (and as you said, he's getting paid a lot of money to do it). Every draft "guru," "pundit," "prognosticator," whatever, owes a debt of gratitude to Mel Kiper.

However, he's not getting paid to be right - he's getting paid to be interesting. He's getting paid to be provocative as well as informative, and there's no denying that he is both. Unlike, say, Mike Mayock, who made the jump from pundit to GM, his job isn't on the line if he makes the wrong choices, so he's free to screw up as often as he likes, as long as his readers and viewers keep coming back for more.
Lions are in the trade down driver's seat, unfortunately  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:40 am : link
which is why we probably will need Herbert to rise rapidly and hook a team to trade up with us.
RE: RE: RE: In my opinion  
Now Mike in MD : 1/24/2020 10:41 am : link
In comment 14791988 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14791986 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


In comment 14791978 JonC said:


Quote:


it is very likely Peppers and Simmons would be best suited to play the same position. Simmons is duplicative. He's not an ILB. Pretty simple. There's no confusion on my part. If they pick Simmons, I pray he proves me wrong but suspect he will fail miserably when they put him in front seven looks.


Do you feel that way just because he's 230 pounds?



Jesus Christ, no. I played the game of football, I know what a LB should be capable of, as well as a SS and FS. This kid sets off AVOID alarm bells every time I watch him play up front. Further, his physical build is a problem. There are few if any LBs in the NFL with those super skinny legs and slight frame. Everyone keeps pointing to the kid in Buffalo, but he's a totally different type of player and 250 lbs.


I've said it before, he reminds me of a flightly faster (but lighter) Leonard Floyd. Same problems playing LB. Too light to set the edge and will get swallowed up if an OL gets his hands on him. Floyd can'd do it at 240, and I don't see how Simmons can do it at 230. Geez even Carter has trouble playing at LB at 250, but same build problems. Light in the pants. You heard the same things about Floyd pre draft. So fast and twitchy for a LB, but he can't do all the things an NFL LBer must do. IMO, you don't pick a Floyd clone at 4.
Now Mike  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:45 am : link
You got it. I went through a similar debate with posters who loved Floyd, and Floyd's exactly what I thought he'd be in the NFL. No lead in his pants, not a gamechanger, and he's got Mack opposite him! He stands out when he flips his hips and chases down receivers, but where's the impact up front? There is none.

Even if we're multiple on defense, I want different beasts in the front seven, JS doesn't fit mine.
RE: RE: ryan  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:48 am : link
In comment 14791996 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791987 JonC said:


Quote:


and I get what you're saying but it doesn't happen as often as your post would indicate. It's not about fear of picking an OT, I just don't see one that will be the 4th best player in this draft. Probably not even 10th best, at this point.

The draft is a puzzle with precious few resources provided to you. You need to evaluate, grade, and make wise choices regardless of position. We wasted a top 10 pick on Flowers and another on Apple. NYG has an extremely poor track record on OL in recent history, got to be wise here. Hope they fix it. Apple was a surprise, that regime did well picking DBs but they blew it not doing their due diligence on his ten cent head.



Jerry Reese and company were terrible evaluators of OL. I have confidence with Garrett's input in the draft, that will change.

I just noticed, Garrett was the guy spreading the virus at the airport in 12 Monkies! Wish I noticed it before, could of had more fun with that when he was at Dallas. Dammit.
Jon  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:49 am : link
we can agree to disagree. I think Simmons is a rare talent. Good coaches will be able to put this guy in multiple positions where he can impact the game all over the field. Is that worth the 4th pick? Maybe. Depends on his work ethic and will to be great. If he has that, I think he's worth it.
ryan  
JonC : 1/24/2020 10:50 am : link
We can agree, but then you have to stop asking me questions about him, lol.
RE: ryan  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 10:54 am : link
In comment 14792033 JonC said:
Quote:
We can agree, but then you have to stop asking me questions about him, lol.

haha. ok, deal!
We would need to scheme Simmons  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 10:55 am : link
Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.
Why is Herbert such a hard name for people to spell?  
Giants in 07 : 1/24/2020 10:59 am : link
Honestly
Thing about Mock Drafts...  
JB_in_DC : 1/24/2020 11:21 am : link
its a pointless exercise (even compared to mock drafts in general) to mock draft pick trades. But that is the best case scenario for us. When you start weighing the pros and cons of all these prospects you get overwhelmed by the depth of this teams' needs. O Line, Defense Back 7, WR all need serious addressing.
RE: We would need to scheme Simmons  
Now Mike in MD : 1/24/2020 11:28 am : link
In comment 14792041 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.


Totaly different builds. Same weight but simmons is 4 inches taller
Simmons is a excellent player.  
JerrysKids : 1/24/2020 11:33 am : link
Not sure if he worth the 4th pick, seems to me that he would be a late 1st rounder.
I do like either line backer / pass rusher  
JerrysKids : 1/24/2020 11:34 am : link
or offensive line.
RE: RE: We would need to scheme Simmons  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/24/2020 11:36 am : link
In comment 14792144 Now Mike in MD said:
Quote:
In comment 14792041 Coach Red Beaulieu said:


Quote:


Into a Derrick Brooks Tampa 2 Will.



Totaly different builds. Same weight but simmons is 4 inches taller

Still can see Simmons in a similar role, others take on the blocks and leave Simmons to fly all over the field making clean tackles. And a big + in coverage to boot.
People  
Amtoft : 1/24/2020 11:42 am : link
forget there will be players that rise and fall drastically before the draft. Jared Goff many thought was a 3rd rounder and ended up going #1 overall. Geno Smith was a lock top 3 player and slipped to the second round. A lot will happen before the draft and it is starting now at the senior bowl. If Simmons comes in and runs a 4.34 at the combine at 230 lbs you can bet he will be way up there and if he runs a 4.7 he will slip. Nature of the beast.
Joel Buschbaum was the man who popularized the NFL draft, his booklet  
plato : 1/24/2020 12:04 pm : link
was required reading by all. Kipper was a late comer who had a ďTVĒ persona, mostly a lot of hair and a midwestern accent. Buchsbaum labored behind a brooklyn jewish accent and persona. But He was the guy who really was the model for much that followed. Unfortunately he died much too young. I suspect he was too young to capitalize as well. But his draft pamphlets were on the money whereas Kiper is BS artist who is almost always wrong.

Just for the record, although itís my opinion .
Buchsbaum was the man, the original  
JonC : 1/24/2020 12:13 pm : link
appearing only in PFW in print. PFW was a must read for me before the Internet era, I still miss getting them in my snail mail. Kiper I'd say took it to the next level and got connected into ESPN a few years later.
Trade down with Oakland  
WillVAB : 1/24/2020 12:42 pm : link
For 12 and 19. Thatís where I think the value sweet spot is for ER and OL. Then take Biadasz at 40 and everyone here will be doing cart wheels.

I donít see the benefit of just sliding down a spot or two. Thereís no one I really Love projected to top 10.

Getting 12 and 19 opens up the Giants draft to get two quality players at positions of need.
I think Tua goes third  
Vanzetti : 1/24/2020 12:43 pm : link
If Lions were smart, they would take him. But a team that has only won one playoff game in the last 60 years is obviously not smart. So they will likely keep
Stafford

But some other team will trade up to get him

I
...  
ryanmkeane : 1/24/2020 12:46 pm : link
if we are being honest, the Lions should probably draft Tua
We draft Pugh and Flowers  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/24/2020 12:58 pm : link
Still people think gircing is a pick at OT is a good idea.

You cant draft players that aren't there. Meaning, if you take a OT at number 4 that in itself doesn't make him an elite OT.
*forcing a pick  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/24/2020 12:58 pm : link
.
LGG  
JonC : 1/24/2020 1:08 pm : link
Correct, and drafting the best OT doesn't make them the best use of the pick, regardless of need.
RE: We draft Pugh and Flowers  
GFAN52 : 1/24/2020 2:26 pm : link
In comment 14792392 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
Still people think gircing is a pick at OT is a good idea.

You cant draft players that aren't there. Meaning, if you take a OT at number 4 that in itself doesn't make him an elite OT.


Unless their value is there for an OT in which case the Giants need to select one.
RE: RE: the trade down talk  
allstarjim : 1/24/2020 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14791932 GFAN52 said:
Quote:
In comment 14791865 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.



Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.


You are probably right, but this draft presents a rare opportunity with the Giants drafting at #4, and a team that is very clearly coveting a franchise QB drafting at #5, with others that will undoubtedly want to leapfrog (the Dolphins) to get their guy, whether it be Tua or even potentially Herbert. And to boot, these teams have, in some cases, tremendous draft capital.

Situationally speaking only, this is a unique and rare position that, especially if Detroit stays home at #3, could prove VERY profitable for the Giants to move out of #4. It's almost a given the offers (very strong offers) will come in should Detroit stay home and take a non-QB.
Simmons is a fine LB  
BigBlueCane : 1/24/2020 4:24 pm : link
in a passing league, he can remain on the field for all 3 downs compared to a 2 down thumper. He's worth the #4 pick.
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