...to take them 5 and 6, then they like them enough to trade up with one of the teams in front of them in order to ensure that they get their guy.
That team would probably be Detroit, which makes them the biggest wildcard in the draft, especially given Gettleman’s and the Giants in general history of not trading down in the drafts.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Don't know if you say Sy's post yesterday but he feels all the top o-line prospects have "warts" mostly technique wise, and he believes the Giants could find a good tackle or center in round 2.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?
that if the Giants are active in free agency this will point in what direction the team goes in the draft? For example, if they only get Conklin would they target Simmons or Okuah?
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?
right so do you counter that by taking a tackle @4 because you don't think the guy you'll get in R2 has as much upside, but the guy you took @4 has technique issues and takes some plays off?
Would hate to draft a tackle @4 only for him to turn into Erick Flowers II.
The Giants to drop down to #5 for what? So they don't miss out on Simmons? I believe Simmons actually has a low floor.
The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.
If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.
This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.
The best possible scenario for the Giants(I'm going to Â
leave out the illusion that Chase Young will be around), is if Detroit takes a QB at 3. Then, the teams that want a QB will get jumpy and willing to pull the trigger on who's left between Tua or Herbert.
that if the Giants are active in free agency this will point in what direction the team goes in the draft? For example, if they only get Conklin would they target Simmons or Okuah?
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.
+1. Yep!
'then they like them enough to trade up to get their guy' Â
Agreed. Herbert's Senior Bowl week to me significantly increased the odds of us trading down. There are now three legit QB's worthy of a Top 5 slot. Trading down would be my preferred scenario while staying within the Top 10 and take an OT while fortifying our Draft.
I would add I like the Simmons pick if the offers aren't there to move. He's a dynamic athlete and has a multiple skillset that suits today's game to a tee. He'll need a coaching staff capable of thinking outside the box to maximize his elite playmaking abilities.
leave out the illusion that Chase Young will be around), is if Detroit takes a QB at 3. Then, the teams that want a QB will get jumpy and willing to pull the trigger on who's left between Tua or Herbert.
That's not at all best case. I'm pretty sure teams will be eyeing Tua specifically and will pay a greater premium for him. Herbert is possible, but I don't believe teams will fight over him like they would Tua.
Remember, there's still Eason, Love, Fromm, and Hurts. Teams may not see it worth it to trade up unless they believe they are getting a superstar, and That has that ability. Not so sure about Herbert, so they may want to wait to get a chance to work with any of the other guys.
that I think would be a waste under the previous couple regimes. But under Judge and the philosophies he's preaching, you'd think he'd fit like a glove.
I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
5, 39 and another pick works for me. Fine with flipping 5 if the other QB is still there too. They need to work this draft board. Tons of talent in this draft.
The Giants to drop down to #5 for what? So they don't miss out on Simmons? I believe Simmons actually has a low floor.
The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.
If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.
This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.
Agree.
RE: Meh. It's a safe choice for Kiper. No surprise. Â
that I think would be a waste under the previous couple regimes. But under Judge and the philosophies he's preaching, you'd think he'd fit like a glove.
I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.
That's the Wild Card. We don't know yet what Judge (or Graham) think of a player like Simmons. He's a tweener that we've seen in the past become a really effective safety or speed LB. We've also seen that type of player quickly flame out due to being a poor scheme fit.
Judge saying he's not going to be tied to a scheme seems promising, but Simmons does have some weaknesses, especially in run support.
given all the warts on the OT and the lack of pedigree on the Edge prospects. I'd rather not go WR either, but look at how the talent is stacking up so far ...
happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.
given all the warts on the OT and the lack of pedigree on the Edge prospects. I'd rather not go WR either, but look at how the talent is stacking up so far ...
I agree the talent at WR is staggering. But the comments from Judge and Gettleman...it would just shock me if we did that. Our defense is absolutely terrible. And our OL is average/below average. Our WR position group might be the best on the roster.
and while what you point out could be accurate, you must consider drafting into the draft's inherent strengths. This is how teams acquire talent. One of them this year is WR, not OL or defense at the top.
A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who
he's an entertainer. we should be happy that he had a large hand in building the draft entertainment business. without him we wouldn't get so much draft coverage. an analyst? not so much.
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.
Point taken. I don't want the Giants to force the pick.
However, I'd rather not pick another OBJ while another Donald or Martin are still available.
As underwhelming as our WR corps is, our offensive line is in even sadder shape, as is our overall defense. The strength of the draft notwithstanding, the game is still won in the trenches, and that's where the Giants are sorely lacking, on both sides of the ball.
and read about Simmons the more I think we already 2 players just like him in Peppers and Love.
Maybe they can play all three on the field at the same time, but they better sign Williams to keep offensive linemen off Simmons, Love and Peppers in order for this plan to work.
#4 for #5 and #26 but admittedly that is a bit slanted in our favor but then again we're talking about Tua who they loved enough to strip their team down for so maybe we can do it.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
If they were willing to give that up, then the trade for them is with the Lions at #3 and not us at #4.
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.
man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.
A LB has to be physical, has to play the run with a vengeance and be willing to mix it up in traffic, he's a tone setter! Simmons is none of these when I've watched him play. I think his supporters are overly wow'd by his speed and coverage abilities, which are plus and unusual. But, I want gamechangers and football is a physical game. I don't want run and chase players who project better to S at #4 of the draft. I'd rather run Peppers out there and find a FS of value who can cover.
once they get that right, it will improve. I'd rather not pick anymore Flowers or Pughs.
This +1,000
Going into the draft trying to plug a hole with a guy who is the best available at that position alone is how you get reaches. Agree WR is not a premium need position (although the position needs an upgrade) but don't draft the next Pugh or Flowers just because the OL currently sucks.
This is a good spot for an ascending pass rushers. If someone emerges.
K'Lavon Chaisson is a guy I see flying up draft boards and he will get major love once the Combine happens.
He is a leader, has excellent football IQ and is a freak athlete. He has recently been mocked to the NY Jets with pick 11 by Daniel Jeramiah and I think that is a possibility.
He is the kind of player the Ravens select then he turns into an all pro.
happens every year...but you can't do it unless a team is willing to give you a solid deal. Trading down just to trade down is silly. If the deal is a good one I have no issues with it, ask for a 2020 2nd and 2021 1st. If the team wants a QB, they should be willing to offer more.
Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.
The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
the crux of the OL situation is they reached on Flowers, that blown pick killed us. If you get that pick right, it should be "easier" to move through the rest of the OL.
The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
You build a strong running and play action game through the OL. The Flowers pick was a fail no doubt, but it can't be ignored in the draft because of it.
Yes they are. They could open the QB flood gates with a trade.
Yep. Make one of the guys looking for a QB leap the other one.
That team would probably be Detroit, which makes them the biggest wildcard in the draft, especially given Gettleman’s and the Giants in general history of not trading down in the drafts.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
Quote:
in the second round.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Don't know if you say Sy's post yesterday but he feels all the top o-line prospects have "warts" mostly technique wise, and he believes the Giants could find a good tackle or center in round 2.
Quote:
in the second round.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.
How far back in the round are you willing to go? For me it's the Panthers or Chargers pick or stay put and grab someone at 4.
Quote:
In comment 14791768 cjac said:
Quote:
in the second round.
You won't get a blue chip type OT in round two, the top four to five guys will go in the first. Wirfs, Thomas, Willis, Bechton are all going fast because the copy cat NFL knows it needs to stop powerhouse DLs and run the ball like the Titans and 49ers can. I don't think Bechton has the feet to be considered at 4, but if he turns into Erik Williams at RT you'd look back and wish you took him.
Yeah, usually in a year that is deep in offensive linemen(Tackles), that is a position that tends to go early and often. I know people automatically assume there will be a good OT in the second round, but if 7 to 10 of them go before our second pick, then what?
right so do you counter that by taking a tackle @4 because you don't think the guy you'll get in R2 has as much upside, but the guy you took @4 has technique issues and takes some plays off?
Would hate to draft a tackle @4 only for him to turn into Erick Flowers II.
The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.
If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.
This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.
Quote:
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.
How far back in the round are you willing to go? For me it's the Panthers or Chargers pick or stay put and grab someone at 4.
In that ballpark, I want an extra #2 or two to move down. With the move down, an OT or WR becomes more palatable.
I still believe that free agency will give us a window into their plans for the draft. Maybe not a slam dunk but will narrow their strategy for who they will target in round one.
+1. Yep!
I would add I like the Simmons pick if the offers aren't there to move. He's a dynamic athlete and has a multiple skillset that suits today's game to a tee. He'll need a coaching staff capable of thinking outside the box to maximize his elite playmaking abilities.
If the 2 qbs are on the board they have to trade down. There will be offers. Someone is going to fall in love with Herbert or Tua
That's not at all best case. I'm pretty sure teams will be eyeing Tua specifically and will pay a greater premium for him. Herbert is possible, but I don't believe teams will fight over him like they would Tua.
Remember, there's still Eason, Love, Fromm, and Hurts. Teams may not see it worth it to trade up unless they believe they are getting a superstar, and That has that ability. Not so sure about Herbert, so they may want to wait to get a chance to work with any of the other guys.
I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
5, 39 and another pick works for me. Fine with flipping 5 if the other QB is still there too. They need to work this draft board. Tons of talent in this draft.
The Giants should trade down to where they can get the most premium picks. A team like the Jaguars at #9. I would even drop down lower is the compensation was outstanding.
If you can get an extra first and second plus more this year and next, you are now set to really build. Get Epenesa and Wills, perhaps. Then you can go C in the 2nd round AND a big time receiver or LB.
This team needs pieces. They don't necessarily need Simmons although he has a lot of potential.
Agree.
A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who
I'm not making any rash judgements right now, lots to learn about these players in the coming months.
That's the Wild Card. We don't know yet what Judge (or Graham) think of a player like Simmons. He's a tweener that we've seen in the past become a really effective safety or speed LB. We've also seen that type of player quickly flame out due to being a poor scheme fit.
Judge saying he's not going to be tied to a scheme seems promising, but Simmons does have some weaknesses, especially in run support.
I agree the talent at WR is staggering. But the comments from Judge and Gettleman...it would just shock me if we did that. Our defense is absolutely terrible. And our OL is average/below average. Our WR position group might be the best on the roster.
How much longer are we willing to wait? Every year we pass up on OL that end up being really good players.
Quote:
not solely on 2020.
How much longer are we willing to wait? Every year we pass up on OL that end up being really good players.
There are other rounds and there's FA. I'd love a blue chip stud OT but if there's question marks about that, don't take one.
Quote:
And anyway, "Who the hell is Mel Kiper?"
A guy who gets paid a lot of money to be totally wrong almost yearly about who drafts who
he's an entertainer. we should be happy that he had a large hand in building the draft entertainment business. without him we wouldn't get so much draft coverage. an analyst? not so much.
Point taken. I don't want the Giants to force the pick.
However, I'd rather not pick another OBJ while another Donald or Martin are still available.
As underwhelming as our WR corps is, our offensive line is in even sadder shape, as is our overall defense. The strength of the draft notwithstanding, the game is still won in the trenches, and that's where the Giants are sorely lacking, on both sides of the ball.
man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.
Maybe they can play all three on the field at the same time, but they better sign Williams to keep offensive linemen off Simmons, Love and Peppers in order for this plan to work.
If not, I'd settle for 5, 39 and another late rounder.
If they were willing to give that up, then the trade for them is with the Lions at #3 and not us at #4.
Quote:
You work your arse off to get a team to trade up for a QB, or I'd pick the best OT or WR on my board, all things being equal.
man you are really digging in on the anti Simmons position.
A LB has to be physical, has to play the run with a vengeance and be willing to mix it up in traffic, he's a tone setter! Simmons is none of these when I've watched him play. I think his supporters are overly wow'd by his speed and coverage abilities, which are plus and unusual. But, I want gamechangers and football is a physical game. I don't want run and chase players who project better to S at #4 of the draft. I'd rather run Peppers out there and find a FS of value who can cover.
This +1,000
Going into the draft trying to plug a hole with a guy who is the best available at that position alone is how you get reaches. Agree WR is not a premium need position (although the position needs an upgrade) but don't draft the next Pugh or Flowers just because the OL currently sucks.
K'Lavon Chaisson is a guy I see flying up draft boards and he will get major love once the Combine happens.
He is a leader, has excellent football IQ and is a freak athlete. He has recently been mocked to the NY Jets with pick 11 by Daniel Jeramiah and I think that is a possibility.
He is the kind of player the Ravens select then he turns into an all pro.
Add in the fact that Gettleman has never traded down and the Giants historically haven't either, I would say the chances are very strong they draft with their pick at #4.
The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
The problem is reinforced because quality OTs worth spending big dollars on aren't reaching UFA. So, now you're overspending for Solder, patching RT with Remmers and praying. This type of solution will more often fail at this level.
You build a strong running and play action game through the OL. The Flowers pick was a fail no doubt, but it can't be ignored in the draft because of it.