Career highlights and awards
-George S. Halas Courage Award (1990)
-Super Bowl champion (XX)
-4× Pro Bowl (1980, 1982, 1984, 1985)
-4× First-team All-Pro (1982, 1984, 1986, 1988)
-2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)
-NFLPA NFC Defensive Lineman of the Year (1984)
-PFW NFL Defensive Player of the Year (1982)
-Football Digest NFL Defensive Linemen of the Year (1988)
-NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
was he just on stacked Bears teams or is he an asshole and thats why you guys don't like him lol
Very good and unique player and definitely fun to watch. But he's only a Hall of Famer because he played with the Steelers and was really popular with the fans/media.
Warren Sapp is a giant turd, but absolutely deserving of the Hall of Fame. He was an animal of an inside pass rusher, probably the best since Randle before Donald came along.
Dan Hampton and Dent are both underrated for their roles on the Bears, just like Singletary is overrated for it. People think about Singletary and his eyes when those Bears defenses are mentioned, but Hampton was probably the MVP of the best defense in football history. So he definitely has a stronger argument than Bettis imo.
Very good and unique player and definitely fun to watch. But he's only a Hall of Famer because he played with the Steelers and was really popular with the fans/media.
Warren Sapp is a giant turd, but absolutely deserving of the Hall of Fame. He was an animal of an inside pass rusher, probably the best since Randle before Donald came along.
Dan Hampton and Dent are both underrated for their roles on the Bears, just like Singletary is overrated for it. People think about Singletary and his eyes when those Bears defenses are mentioned, but Hampton was probably the MVP of the best defense in football history. So he definitely has a stronger argument than Bettis imo.
Bettis is a good call. His best year in terms of scrimmage yards was 1775. Tiki eclipsed that 4 times, and was 50 years short of that one year. And he did that even though he played 4 less years.
better numbers than I remember. So I have to go back on my previous post and say that even he isn't someone I'd call a terrible choice. But he was definitely helped greatly in terms of perception by the Steelers hype.
For me, he’s on the short list of most disruptive defensive forces I’ve seen in my lifetime. Up there with Charles Haley, Troy Polamalu, Derrick Brooks, and Von Miller and some others as game wreckers ... and on a tier below the very best I’ve seen (LT, Reggie White, Ray Lewis, and Ed Reed). Maybe a jerk/bad guy, but I think a first ballot guy.
I don't think I can agree on Sapp not being deserving Â
He was pretty clearly the best DT in the game for a half-decade (4-time 1st team all-pro). Incredibly dominant in his prime and played for 13 years, not bad for a DL in general. Almost 100 sacks which is quite a bit for a DT.
I could see maybe arguing he shouldn't have been 1st ballot, especially because he stole a spot from Strahan being a 1st ballot HOFer, but that could be the homer in me talking.
Stat accumulator. Belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
eh, he was routinely among the league leaders in receptions and TD's for much of his career. And his peak seasons were legit great statistical seasons.
Stat accumulator. Belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
He accumulated 130 TDs.
Grade A jack ass for sure. But a great WR.
And I can't think of one of them that really mattered. One of the few HoF players I always remember playing and having a solid game, but no clear memory of anything unique.
RE: I don't think I can agree on Sapp not being deserving Â
He was pretty clearly the best DT in the game for a half-decade (4-time 1st team all-pro). Incredibly dominant in his prime and played for 13 years, not bad for a DL in general. Almost 100 sacks which is quite a bit for a DT.
I could see maybe arguing he shouldn't have been 1st ballot, especially because he stole a spot from Strahan being a 1st ballot HOFer, but that could be the homer in me talking.
I know it’s blasphemy, but in my humble (and often wrong) opinion, Sapp was a more disruptive and game changing force than Strahan. A fat ball of energy and violence. There’s a YouTube clip going around of the game where Sapp (pretty dirtily) knocked out both Steve Young and Jerry Rice. Not vouching for character but he was a load.
When I think of the HoF, I think of players that you would naturally talk about when talking about the NFL during their era. Joe Namath's stats are pedestrian, but he is a huge piece of the league's history because of SB III and the merger. He isn't there because he was elite passer for 15 years.
Chris Carter - and Jerome Bettis - when you talk about that era of football, what stands out about them? Carter caught a bunch of TDs for teams that didn't win anything. His impact on the game was zilch. You remember Bettis for his running style, but mostly for getting a SB win in his hometown at the end of his career. A good story, but he's a player you can forget unless he was on your team.
Aikman was the QB for a team that won 3 SBs and the story of the NFL in the 90s includes him and that team. The story of the first part of the 21st century include the Giants run to two SBs and beating a team playing for destiny. The stats are a good supporting fact for him.
This is likely not how everyone views HoF candidates, but that is how I think about it and why I think Carter and all his TDs just doesn't belong with the others.
position in general. It's a tough position to have a long career. You take a pounding.
So I tend to be more lenient for the accumulators at that position. I definitely get the issues with Bettis, but he did play for a long time, and often as the centerpiece of the offense...
Sure he was on two Super Bowl winning teams but when the Dolphins went undefeated, he was injured. (Trent Dilfer could have quarterbacked that team.) And in the one Super Bowl he won, he threw a total of 7 passes.
When I think of the HoF, I think of players that you would naturally talk about when talking about the NFL during their era. Joe Namath's stats are pedestrian, but he is a huge piece of the league's history because of SB III and the merger. He isn't there because he was elite passer for 15 years.
Chris Carter - and Jerome Bettis - when you talk about that era of football, what stands out about them? Carter caught a bunch of TDs for teams that didn't win anything. His impact on the game was zilch. You remember Bettis for his running style, but mostly for getting a SB win in his hometown at the end of his career. A good story, but he's a player you can forget unless he was on your team.
Aikman was the QB for a team that won 3 SBs and the story of the NFL in the 90s includes him and that team. The story of the first part of the 21st century include the Giants run to two SBs and beating a team playing for destiny. The stats are a good supporting fact for him.
This is likely not how everyone views HoF candidates, but that is how I think about it and why I think Carter and all his TDs just doesn't belong with the others.
Ehh... Guys can get (and have gotten) into the hall for different things, other than having been the best player on a team at the same time as winning a super bowl (which kind of seems like what you're implying as a requirement). Technically by your argument we could also just say "Dan Marino threw for a whole bunch of TDs and yards for teams that never won anything." Carter was a huge part of those Vikings teams in the late 90s /early 00s, which is a team among the greatest teams to never win a super bowl. And I mean he's a WR, one of the least impactful positions relatively speaking in a sport with 22 starters on each team-- you can't really blame him for 41-0, nor a whole lot for their loss in the NFCCG against Atlanta.
Ehh... Guys can get (and have gotten) into the hall for different things, other than having been the best player on a team at the same time as winning a super bowl (which kind of seems like what you're implying as a requirement).
That isn't at all what I am saying. You don't have to win a Superbowl to be in the HoF. Marino held almost every NFL passing record when he retired and was easily one of the top 3 QBs in his era. He is a no-brainer to be in based on that alone. Winning a SB is not a prerequisite.
On those early 00 Viking teams, Carter wasn't even the best WR on the Vikings! That team became a force because of Randy Moss. He is in the HoF and deservedly so because he was dominant and clearly one of the top WRs in the game when he played. And he never won a SB.
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
At his peak, Carter was an all-pro caliber player across multiple seasons. He led the league in TDs 3x and had 122 receptions in back to back seasons. Only 4 guys have caught more TDs than his 17 in 1995. Art Monk was a compiler. This guy was most certainly not.
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
Cris Carter wasn't a top 5 WR from '94 to '99? You really need to re-examine his numbers in that time period...
And yet some can't see how people could disagree about Eli getting in Â
That's not a shot. And I'm an Eli homer and think he should be in. But I was reading down this thread and it made me laugh seeing all the current HOF'ers people didn't think should be in.
People say Troy Aikman. Are there other 3x SB winners not in? As Peyton said of Eli, you can’t tell the story of the NFL in that era without him. Stacked team? Sure. Very good coach? Yep. I HATED them, but the Troy, Emmitt, Irvin trio has to be in.
Bettis stands out some to me. Other RBs are like Jim Brown, W. Payton, Earl Campbell, M. Faulk, Tony Dorsett, ...he just doesn’t seem in that pantheon.
Simply does not belong. He’s the definition of a system QB and often wasn’t even the second or third best player on the offense. He’s in because of the whole bagging groceries story. Nice story, good guy, absolutely does not belong in HOF.
RE: RE: RE: Let me put my argument a little differently Â
Ehh... Guys can get (and have gotten) into the hall for different things, other than having been the best player on a team at the same time as winning a super bowl (which kind of seems like what you're implying as a requirement).
That isn't at all what I am saying. You don't have to win a Superbowl to be in the HoF. Marino held almost every NFL passing record when he retired and was easily one of the top 3 QBs in his era. He is a no-brainer to be in based on that alone. Winning a SB is not a prerequisite.
On those early 00 Viking teams, Carter wasn't even the best WR on the Vikings! That team became a force because of Randy Moss. He is in the HoF and deservedly so because he was dominant and clearly one of the top WRs in the game when he played. And he never won a SB.
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
He was 1st team all-pro twice ('94,'99) and 2nd team all-pro a couple times between those years. Also think about the fact that Jerry Rice was other 1st-team all-pro WR in '94, which means the only guy keeping Carter from being the best WR in the league was a guy who is unanimously considered the greatest WR of all time (and maybe greatest football player of all time).
Maybe your memory of Carter is of later in his career when he was more of a top 10-15 WR, but in the mid to late -90s he was dominant, and at one point the only WR better than him in the entire league was Rice.
--Andre Reed was never voted First Team All-Pro
--Andre Reed never led the league in receptions or receiving yards (he did lead the AFC in those categories ONCE in 1989)
--Never led the league in receiving TDs - in fact career TD total is under 100.
--15 years in Buffalo only 4 1000+ seasons.
People comment about Cris Carter being borderline HOFer - Carter's resume is more impressive. Others argue Steve Largent - his numbers are better in a different era.
Winner.
-George S. Halas Courage Award (1990)
-Super Bowl champion (XX)
-4× Pro Bowl (1980, 1982, 1984, 1985)
-4× First-team All-Pro (1982, 1984, 1986, 1988)
-2× Second-team All-Pro (1980, 1985)
-NFLPA NFC Defensive Lineman of the Year (1984)
-PFW NFL Defensive Player of the Year (1982)
-Football Digest NFL Defensive Linemen of the Year (1988)
-NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
was he just on stacked Bears teams or is he an asshole and thats why you guys don't like him lol
Warren Sapp is a giant turd, but absolutely deserving of the Hall of Fame. He was an animal of an inside pass rusher, probably the best since Randle before Donald came along.
Dan Hampton and Dent are both underrated for their roles on the Bears, just like Singletary is overrated for it. People think about Singletary and his eyes when those Bears defenses are mentioned, but Hampton was probably the MVP of the best defense in football history. So he definitely has a stronger argument than Bettis imo.
Warren Sapp is a giant turd, but absolutely deserving of the Hall of Fame. He was an animal of an inside pass rusher, probably the best since Randle before Donald came along.
Dan Hampton and Dent are both underrated for their roles on the Bears, just like Singletary is overrated for it. People think about Singletary and his eyes when those Bears defenses are mentioned, but Hampton was probably the MVP of the best defense in football history. So he definitely has a stronger argument than Bettis imo.
Bettis is a good call. His best year in terms of scrimmage yards was 1775. Tiki eclipsed that 4 times, and was 50 years short of that one year. And he did that even though he played 4 less years.
Jerome Bettis
Great player, but numbers were impacted by his injuries.
Has some Eli to his career. Not overwhelming regular season stats but tremendous post-season player...
It IS the Hall of FAME, after all.
career passing yards 38th
career TD passes 73rd
career completed passes 28th
Eli 7th in all those stats with only 1 less SB win and a whole lot less talent.
Didn't Hayes go in with the Senior Vote?
I could see maybe arguing he shouldn't have been 1st ballot, especially because he stole a spot from Strahan being a 1st ballot HOFer, but that could be the homer in me talking.
He accumulated 130 TDs.
Grade A jack ass for sure. But a great WR.
eh, he was routinely among the league leaders in receptions and TD's for much of his career. And his peak seasons were legit great statistical seasons.
Quote:
Stat accumulator. Belongs in the Hall of Very Good.
He accumulated 130 TDs.
Grade A jack ass for sure. But a great WR.
And I can't think of one of them that really mattered. One of the few HoF players I always remember playing and having a solid game, but no clear memory of anything unique.
I could see maybe arguing he shouldn't have been 1st ballot, especially because he stole a spot from Strahan being a 1st ballot HOFer, but that could be the homer in me talking.
I know it’s blasphemy, but in my humble (and often wrong) opinion, Sapp was a more disruptive and game changing force than Strahan. A fat ball of energy and violence. There’s a YouTube clip going around of the game where Sapp (pretty dirtily) knocked out both Steve Young and Jerry Rice. Not vouching for character but he was a load.
Chris Carter - and Jerome Bettis - when you talk about that era of football, what stands out about them? Carter caught a bunch of TDs for teams that didn't win anything. His impact on the game was zilch. You remember Bettis for his running style, but mostly for getting a SB win in his hometown at the end of his career. A good story, but he's a player you can forget unless he was on your team.
Aikman was the QB for a team that won 3 SBs and the story of the NFL in the 90s includes him and that team. The story of the first part of the 21st century include the Giants run to two SBs and beating a team playing for destiny. The stats are a good supporting fact for him.
This is likely not how everyone views HoF candidates, but that is how I think about it and why I think Carter and all his TDs just doesn't belong with the others.
So I tend to be more lenient for the accumulators at that position. I definitely get the issues with Bettis, but he did play for a long time, and often as the centerpiece of the offense...
Quote:
Hampton
Winner.
Hands down the winner. The fact that he got in years before Carson makes it even more of joke.
Sure he threw the ball around a lot, led the lead in TDs afew times, led the league in INTs a few times too.
Chris Carter - and Jerome Bettis - when you talk about that era of football, what stands out about them? Carter caught a bunch of TDs for teams that didn't win anything. His impact on the game was zilch. You remember Bettis for his running style, but mostly for getting a SB win in his hometown at the end of his career. A good story, but he's a player you can forget unless he was on your team.
Aikman was the QB for a team that won 3 SBs and the story of the NFL in the 90s includes him and that team. The story of the first part of the 21st century include the Giants run to two SBs and beating a team playing for destiny. The stats are a good supporting fact for him.
This is likely not how everyone views HoF candidates, but that is how I think about it and why I think Carter and all his TDs just doesn't belong with the others.
Ehh... Guys can get (and have gotten) into the hall for different things, other than having been the best player on a team at the same time as winning a super bowl (which kind of seems like what you're implying as a requirement). Technically by your argument we could also just say "Dan Marino threw for a whole bunch of TDs and yards for teams that never won anything." Carter was a huge part of those Vikings teams in the late 90s /early 00s, which is a team among the greatest teams to never win a super bowl. And I mean he's a WR, one of the least impactful positions relatively speaking in a sport with 22 starters on each team-- you can't really blame him for 41-0, nor a whole lot for their loss in the NFCCG against Atlanta.
That isn't at all what I am saying. You don't have to win a Superbowl to be in the HoF. Marino held almost every NFL passing record when he retired and was easily one of the top 3 QBs in his era. He is a no-brainer to be in based on that alone. Winning a SB is not a prerequisite.
On those early 00 Viking teams, Carter wasn't even the best WR on the Vikings! That team became a force because of Randy Moss. He is in the HoF and deservedly so because he was dominant and clearly one of the top WRs in the game when he played. And he never won a SB.
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
No he's not.
Jerk in real life, obviously.
I always thought Chris Doleman was a reach, one dimensional player.
But looking at his stats, and longevity, it's impressive.
Just goes to show you what your eyes show you and what stats show you.............
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
Cris Carter wasn't a top 5 WR from '94 to '99? You really need to re-examine his numbers in that time period...
That's not a shot. And I'm an Eli homer and think he should be in. But I was reading down this thread and it made me laugh seeing all the current HOF'ers people didn't think should be in.
TO not being worthy can only be a persona thing, and even then that was overblown.
In the modern era, post 2000........could be the best receiver of this millenium, even better than Moss.
Fantastic WR that we've forgotten about.
Bettis stands out some to me. Other RBs are like Jim Brown, W. Payton, Earl Campbell, M. Faulk, Tony Dorsett, ...he just doesn’t seem in that pantheon.
Quote:
Ehh... Guys can get (and have gotten) into the hall for different things, other than having been the best player on a team at the same time as winning a super bowl (which kind of seems like what you're implying as a requirement).
That isn't at all what I am saying. You don't have to win a Superbowl to be in the HoF. Marino held almost every NFL passing record when he retired and was easily one of the top 3 QBs in his era. He is a no-brainer to be in based on that alone. Winning a SB is not a prerequisite.
On those early 00 Viking teams, Carter wasn't even the best WR on the Vikings! That team became a force because of Randy Moss. He is in the HoF and deservedly so because he was dominant and clearly one of the top WRs in the game when he played. And he never won a SB.
Carter - in my opinion - was never a top WR during his era. Very good, but never top-5. Outside of that, he just has no compelling argument to me because I think in the history of the game, he is very easy to forget.
I know my criteria is not what all (or most) voters use, but it is not win a SB or no chance.
He was 1st team all-pro twice ('94,'99) and 2nd team all-pro a couple times between those years. Also think about the fact that Jerry Rice was other 1st-team all-pro WR in '94, which means the only guy keeping Carter from being the best WR in the league was a guy who is unanimously considered the greatest WR of all time (and maybe greatest football player of all time).
Maybe your memory of Carter is of later in his career when he was more of a top 10-15 WR, but in the mid to late -90s he was dominant, and at one point the only WR better than him in the entire league was Rice.
Similar to Swann with the Steelers
--Andre Reed never led the league in receptions or receiving yards (he did lead the AFC in those categories ONCE in 1989)
--Never led the league in receiving TDs - in fact career TD total is under 100.
--15 years in Buffalo only 4 1000+ seasons.
People comment about Cris Carter being borderline HOFer - Carter's resume is more impressive. Others argue Steve Largent - his numbers are better in a different era.