All the others at the top of the list played for teams that had dynamic playmakers on offense and in many cases emphasized offense. The Giants were always built on running the football and playing defense - they just were not good at it.
but you need better context imo. How many times did Montona have a defense ranked 15th or later. Same with Bradshaw, etc....hence the number would be lower.
Eli played with a really poor cast the last seven years. The cleansing of the players shows the Giants saw what others knew for years.
but you need better context imo. How many times did Montona have a defense ranked 15th or later. Same with Bradshaw, etc....hence the number would be lower.
Eli played with a really poor cast the last seven years. The cleansing of the players shows the Giants saw what others knew for years.
Of course. I don't think the take away was that Eli was more capable than Montana or Brad, et al, at winning with bad defenses.
Rather, I think it reflects just how much of his career he played with below average defenses. Of course, one must consider that terrible QB outings will contribute to defenses giving up more poonts
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
The 2011 defense stunk? I didn't care for Perry Fewell's schemes but you maybe should look at the roster again before you say "stink" again.
The first victory of that playoff run, vs Atlanta IIRC, featured at least two badass short yardage stops with Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Rocky Bernard, JPP, Tuck etc on the DL. Not to mention Kiwi, Osi, (well one of those two were hurt IIRC, but not the other.)
Chase Blackburn played way over his head during those playoffs, and Michael Boley was a very good weak side OLB. We had pretty good DBs then too.
Our D was good throughout those playoffs, even if luck also played a factor.
I get so pissed when people say Eli’s not a great and obvious HoF QB. The streak, the TWO Supes and playoff runs, played outside in Northeast weather... impeccable in all ways off the field in the worlds largest media market, never even once throwing anyone under the bus, just such an obviously great, great champion.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
The 2011 defense stunk? I didn't care for Perry Fewell's schemes but you maybe should look at the roster again before you say "stink" again.
The first victory of that playoff run, vs Atlanta IIRC, featured at least two badass short yardage stops with Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Rocky Bernard, JPP, Tuck etc on the DL. Not to mention Kiwi, Osi, (well one of those two were hurt IIRC, but not the other.)
Chase Blackburn played way over his head during those playoffs, and Michael Boley was a very good weak side OLB. We had pretty good DBs then too.
Our D was good throughout those playoffs, even if luck also played a factor.
The 2011 defense did stink. They flipped a switch in the playoffs, but they were bad in the regular season.
Eli and Peyton dominated this stat in the preseason column Â
This should be stickied so the beat writers that get all their content from refreshing BBI can run with this and get this out there for everyone to see.
Not to mention that the stud OLs that some of the Â
Some of the losses from 2012 until now and see exactly how many games he left the field up only to have the D open their cheeks and lose, its heartbreaking. I counted like 18. If the d holds in just half those games his record argument is over. He'd be 126-108? And possibly a few more playoff games.
to see the W-L percentage and/or % of W with a bad D.
Not naysaying the stat, but a 17th ranked D is still middle of the pack, so a true analysis would have to bin additional categories (mediocre, bad, real bad, Giants bad as of late, etc)
In the 2011 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 14 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
3 PPG better than the Patriots defense.
In the 2007 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 16.2 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
Slightly better than the Patriots.
People use wins as a QB metric FAR too often and it's got to stop.
THis chart speaks to that, though. People use wins way too much to evaluate a QB-- by showing how many wins Eli has with a bottom-half defense indicates just how many games Eli has played with a bottom-half defense.
Eli had 74 wins with a bottom half defense, meaning he only had 43 wins with a top-half defense.
This chart further supports why his 117-117 reflects the quality of his team/defense rather than the quality of his play.
matches bottom half regular season defense with playoff wins.
I gave you the examples above with 2007 and 2011.
Both years the Giants had the #1 defense in the playoffs in terms of points, but they credit Eli with 8 wins while having a bottom half regular season D.
Do you not see the misalignment of relevance and credit?
I'm not suggesting even for a second Eli didn't contribute to the 8 playoff wins, of course he did, I am saying however that having a bottom half scoring D in the regular season meant nothing. The defense was lights out in the playoffs.
If you want to look at his regular seasons wins in that scenario (bottom half scoring D) and feel like that's impressive then fine. But like I said, QB's are given too much credit and blame for team wins or losses.
but there was a very vocal crowd that was insisting Eli was a large part of the losing.
Yes there was. And for several years there, they were correct...
That's your opinion congrats but no offense you don't have a clue...and the table above by the OP basically proves a point that many of us have been making...
And that is no QB can win with no defense and running game which was the Giants scenario for the last 7 years...
great find Paul
( and good to see you posting!)
Eli played with a really poor cast the last seven years. The cleansing of the players shows the Giants saw what others knew for years.
Eli played with a really poor cast the last seven years. The cleansing of the players shows the Giants saw what others knew for years.
Of course. I don't think the take away was that Eli was more capable than Montana or Brad, et al, at winning with bad defenses.
Rather, I think it reflects just how much of his career he played with below average defenses. Of course, one must consider that terrible QB outings will contribute to defenses giving up more poonts
Nah probably not...
OK, who understands what that means?
Or what sort of baseline is needed to make this stat meaningful?
Paul you know what I mean I'm sure...
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
Quote:
I missed Paul's exchange with Lines of Scrimmage.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
The 2011 defense stunk? I didn't care for Perry Fewell's schemes but you maybe should look at the roster again before you say "stink" again.
The first victory of that playoff run, vs Atlanta IIRC, featured at least two badass short yardage stops with Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Rocky Bernard, JPP, Tuck etc on the DL. Not to mention Kiwi, Osi, (well one of those two were hurt IIRC, but not the other.)
Chase Blackburn played way over his head during those playoffs, and Michael Boley was a very good weak side OLB. We had pretty good DBs then too.
Our D was good throughout those playoffs, even if luck also played a factor.
The greatest Giant of my lifetime.
Very interesting!
Quote:
In comment 14793084 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
I missed Paul's exchange with Lines of Scrimmage.
And yes Paul what it does point out is that Eli played with some pretty awful to mediocre defenses over the years.
But the 8 playoff wine were pretty much all garnered with the defense function much more like a top 10 unit than a bottom half. Even more like a top quartile unit or better.
I’ll give you 2007 on this point but keep in mind- when we lost that year, we lost in spectacular fashion.
In 2011, that defense really did stink. I would attribute their success more to luck than anything else. We won a LOT of games that year because the opposing QB missed a wide open WR at the end of the game. This happened in the superbowl. Brady missed a WR with nobody around him. If he completed that pass, they likely would have won the game.
The 2011 defense stunk? I didn't care for Perry Fewell's schemes but you maybe should look at the roster again before you say "stink" again.
The first victory of that playoff run, vs Atlanta IIRC, featured at least two badass short yardage stops with Linval Joseph, Chris Canty, Rocky Bernard, JPP, Tuck etc on the DL. Not to mention Kiwi, Osi, (well one of those two were hurt IIRC, but not the other.)
Chase Blackburn played way over his head during those playoffs, and Michael Boley was a very good weak side OLB. We had pretty good DBs then too.
Our D was good throughout those playoffs, even if luck also played a factor.
The 2011 defense did stink. They flipped a switch in the playoffs, but they were bad in the regular season.
This.
Quote:
In settling the HOF discussion.
This.
Yup...X2
Peyton clearly had the worst talent on any of the stud QBs. That is why he is so great!
Not naysaying the stat, but a 17th ranked D is still middle of the pack, so a true analysis would have to bin additional categories (mediocre, bad, real bad, Giants bad as of late, etc)
Neither did Dan Fouts.
Nah probably not...
Well since basically nobody on here says it was only his fault, I think the dim bulb is you...
In the 2011 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 14 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
3 PPG better than the Patriots defense.
In the 2007 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 16.2 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
Slightly better than the Patriots.
People use wins as a QB metric FAR too often and it's got to stop.
In the 2011 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 14 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
3 PPG better than the Patriots defense.
In the 2007 playoffs the Giants defense allowed 16.2 PPG, #1 in the playoffs.
Slightly better than the Patriots.
People use wins as a QB metric FAR too often and it's got to stop.
THis chart speaks to that, though. People use wins way too much to evaluate a QB-- by showing how many wins Eli has with a bottom-half defense indicates just how many games Eli has played with a bottom-half defense.
Eli had 74 wins with a bottom half defense, meaning he only had 43 wins with a top-half defense.
This chart further supports why his 117-117 reflects the quality of his team/defense rather than the quality of his play.
I gave you the examples above with 2007 and 2011.
Both years the Giants had the #1 defense in the playoffs in terms of points, but they credit Eli with 8 wins while having a bottom half regular season D.
Do you not see the misalignment of relevance and credit?
I'm not suggesting even for a second Eli didn't contribute to the 8 playoff wins, of course he did, I am saying however that having a bottom half scoring D in the regular season meant nothing. The defense was lights out in the playoffs.
If you want to look at his regular seasons wins in that scenario (bottom half scoring D) and feel like that's impressive then fine. But like I said, QB's are given too much credit and blame for team wins or losses.
Yes there was. And for several years there, they were correct...
Quote:
but there was a very vocal crowd that was insisting Eli was a large part of the losing.
Yes there was. And for several years there, they were correct...
That's your opinion congrats but no offense you don't have a clue...and the table above by the OP basically proves a point that many of us have been making...
And that is no QB can win with no defense and running game which was the Giants scenario for the last 7 years...