Hall of Fame debate - Eli vs. Dan Fouts

I believe Fouts made a couple of All Pro teams too.

Anyways, he was before my time so I can't really speak about him.

Warren Moon -

Record: 102-101
TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards

same here to an extent.....I was 13 when he retired. So any input would be fantastic

watching, never even sniffed a SB..SBs are HUGE, esp. if you’re a multi MVP winner

Eli's regular season record isn't Hall of Fame criteria. Just seemed like a crock to me

In comment 14793036 Big Blue '56 said:

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watching, never even sniffed a SB..SBs are HUGE, esp. if you’re a multi MVP winner

Exactly....the arsenal is there stats wise for him to get in. It just seems like he will always have his haters

when the defense was alllowed to play defense. You can't even compare the two eras.

Fouts would throw for 6K yards in today's game. He was a prolific thrower of the ball.

In comment 14793031 GloryDayz said:

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Warren Moon - Record: 102-101 TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards

Moon didn't get to the NFL until he was like 29. He was in Canada because the NFL still didn't trust black QBs.

One of the great throwers of a football ever.

Dan Fouts was an amazing QB. Don’t be fooled by his numbers. You are also comparing QBs from different era’s. Back then it was a running league. Dan Fouts never had the support or defense to win playoffs games let alone a SB. Amazing offense for many years.

Led the NFL in TDS 2X, yardage 4X, and completion % 1X.

And he was league MVP one year and 2X AFC offensive player of the year...

was a 6X pro bowler, 3X first team All Pro, and 1X second team All Pro.

He was great.

I don't remember much about Fouts growing up....was a little young for his prime unfortunately

In comment 14793053 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14793031 GloryDayz said: Quote: Warren Moon - Record: 102-101 TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards Moon didn't get to the NFL until he was like 29. He was in Canada because the NFL still didn't trust black QBs. One of the great throwers of a football ever.

You throw in his CFL numbers and it's not close.

In comment 14793056 Just a Fan! said:

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Dan Fouts was an amazing QB. Don’t be fooled by his numbers. You are also comparing QBs from different era’s. Back then it was a running league. Dan Fouts never had the support or defense to win playoffs games let alone a SB. Amazing offense for many years.

Back then you could lay the smackdown on WR's & QB's alike, too.

In comment 14793110 Gmen703 said:

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In comment 14793053 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 14793031 GloryDayz said: Quote: Warren Moon - Record: 102-101 TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards Moon didn't get to the NFL until he was like 29. He was in Canada because the NFL still didn't trust black QBs. One of the great throwers of a football ever. You throw in his CFL numbers and it's not close.

Throw in Eli’s college numbers..........

In comment 14793116 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14793110 Gmen703 said: Quote: In comment 14793053 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 14793031 GloryDayz said: Quote: Warren Moon - Record: 102-101 TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards Moon didn't get to the NFL until he was like 29. He was in Canada because the NFL still didn't trust black QBs. One of the great throwers of a football ever. You throw in his CFL numbers and it's not close. Throw in Eli’s college numbers..........

Why would you throw in college numbers when we're comparing professional numbers?

he was often considered the best pure passing QB playing. The San Diego offense was legendary.

Eli and the Giants' offense never had a corresponding period.

Eli Manning, but Dan Fouts was on a different level.

by relying solely on stats.

And Moon are ignoring is the win/loss record. Nobody doubts those two were great. But the knock on Eli is his win/loss record. He’s top 10 in all the important stats of his era. And those guys have great stats for their era. Their win/loss records are all pretty close. Meaning Eli should be in if those guys win records didn’t keep them out.

a great QB. You can't compare the stats. Fouts played in an era where there was far less protection for the QB and for the WRs. And Fouts actually benefited from the tightening of the coverage rules. He had his big years just after they made contact after 5 yards illegal. Stabler, Staubach and Bradshaw had diminished stats throughout the 70s. If they played in today's era they would put up gaudy stats. Honestly, all four were better than Eli in terms of peak value. Eli had amazing longevity though, again probably owing to rules that protected the QB.

stats and records, should not be a compelling factor.. All player’s have their unique careers and pathways to Canton. You can make a case for and against any player. I can tell you that Terry Bradshaw won his Super Bowl’s on stacked teams. Yes. He still deserved to be inducted into the Hall of Fame, because he was part of four, winning SBs. We can point out that Eli, starting from 2012 and all the way up to now didn’t have as much to work with. I think you have to look at the individual and what they have accomplished given what they had and their accomplishments. IMO, all comparisons are apples and oranges for a football player’s career.

Eli goes in five years. No question....

In comment 14793053 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14793031 GloryDayz said: Quote: Warren Moon - Record: 102-101 TD/INT : 291 TDs and 233 INTs, 49000 yards Moon didn't get to the NFL until he was like 29. He was in Canada because the NFL still didn't trust black QBs. One of the great throwers of a football ever.

Yeah I’m aware of Moon’s time in Canada, but 200+ games in the NFL is still an ample size to make a comparison, not in terms of yardage (different era, less time spent in NFL), but the win percentage & the TD:INT ratio is comparable, and it is these 2 parameters that everybody against Eli in the HOF brings up.

In comment 14793278 bradshaw44 said:

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And Moon are ignoring is the win/loss record. Nobody doubts those two were great. But the knock on Eli is his win/loss record. He’s top 10 in all the important stats of his era. And those guys have great stats for their era. Their win/loss records are all pretty close. Meaning Eli should be in if those guys win records didn’t keep them out.

Yeah, sounds like the front offices for those teams did a horrible job of building a team around Moon and Fouts.

In comment 14793462 Bramton1 said:

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In comment 14793278 bradshaw44 said: Quote: And Moon are ignoring is the win/loss record. Nobody doubts those two were great. But the knock on Eli is his win/loss record. He’s top 10 in all the important stats of his era. And those guys have great stats for their era. Their win/loss records are all pretty close. Meaning Eli should be in if those guys win records didn’t keep them out. Yeah, sounds like the front offices for those teams did a horrible job of building a team around Moon and Fouts.

I was curious, so I thought I would go check. Here are the Chargers' defensive rankings on total yards allowed and points allowed per game. The number in parentheses is the total number of teams in the league at the time.

SD CHARGERS DEFENSIVE RANKINGS
1973: 22, 24 (26)
1974: 26, 19 (26)
1975: 23, 20 (26)
1976: 22, 18 (28)
1977: 6, 6 (28) Fouts injured most of the year, only played 4 games, team went 7-7
1978: 8, 21 (28) team went 9-7
1979: 5, 2 (28) Fouts was 1st team All-Pro, team went 12-4, 0-1 in playoffs, lost in div round)
1980: 6, 18 (28) team went 11-5, 1-1 in playoffs, lost in conf champ)
1981: 27, 26 (28) team went 10-6, 1-1 in playoffs, lost in conf champ
1982: 25, 24 (28) Fouts 1st team All-Pro, team went 6-3, 1-1 in playoffs, lost in div round)
1983: 26, 28 (28)
1984: 26, 24 (28)
1985: 28, 25 (28)
1986: 23, 24 (28)
1987: 15, 15 (28)

So there you have it with Fouts. Most of his career, the Chargers had a terrible defense and only made the playoffs four times in his career. As for outside the years I mentioned, the Chargers were 15-40-1 from 1973 to 1976 and 33-46 from 1983 to 1987.

on a QB is a shit stat. A QB only plays half the game. He doesn't play defense. Those San Diego defenses were sieves. What was Eli's record when they had a decent defense vs a shitty defense?

It's like +/- stat in hockey. It tells you nothing. Do you mean to tell me that guys like Trent Dilfer, David Woodley, Vince Ferragamo, Rex Grossman, etc. were better QBs because they played in Super Bowls and Fouts didn't?

In comment 14793489 Gman11 said:

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on a QB is a shit stat. A QB only plays half the game. He doesn't play defense. Those San Diego defenses were sieves. What was Eli's record when they had a decent defense vs a shitty defense?

It's a stat worth noting because the QB touches the ball more than anyone outside the center and the referee. But you are right, it does get over-played.

In comment 14793489 Gman11 said:

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on a QB is a shit stat. A QB only plays half the game. He doesn't play defense. Those San Diego defenses were sieves. What was Eli's record when they had a decent defense vs a shitty defense? It's like +/- stat in hockey. It tells you nothing. Do you mean to tell me that guys like Trent Dilfer, David Woodley, Vince Ferragamo, Rex Grossman, etc. were better QBs because they played in Super Bowls and Fouts didn't?

I agree, but you can't have it both ways. If you want to seriously consider SB wins towards a QB's HOF value, you have to look at W/L record as well.

I think both are fairly minor points for HOF qualification, but there are a lot of people who are basically, "Two SB wins, so he should be in"

but the OP actually grabbed a good QB to make the argument.

Fouts took a bit a time to find his ways in the NFL but much of that was because the passing game in the 1970s was only starting to become a thing.

By the late 1970s though Fouts was lighting up defenses with his game. In fact, he was probably the biggest weapon at QB in the entire league until Marino showed up. Like Eli, he threw his fair share of picks and played on a plenty of flawed teams.

Eli has his 2 rings which is the nice trumpcard.

But if you are asking me to choose up sides, I am picking Fouts all else being equal...

One of the most prolific offenses ever, well before his time. This was the architect of the passing, 5 out, type schemes.

and got some good feedback from BBI.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=590235 - ( New Window )

Flip a coin. Between Elway and Fouts, Eli is right with them. I think he's in the HOF sooner than I thought, but I always thought he'd get in.

the Giants' .500 record during Eli's tenure is in fact representative of his own inconsistency as well as an OL that went to he'll under Reese, and defensive units that reflected poor drafting for almost a decade, as well as horrid injury luck.

But he's an HOF lock now from all I have listened to the past few days, because his highs were truly magnificent and included two of the most iconic playoff runs in playoff history, twice beating the two headed beast of Brady and Belichick, knocking off the 18-0 Pats, iconic two minute drives, iconic playoff plays, and the staggeringly heroic performances he put up in two NFC CCS in brutal outdoor playing conditions.

Then his iron man ability, which wasn't only luck of not getting injured, but - as his brother Peyton acknowledge me - playing through shoulder and foot injuries and never, to this day, uttering a peep about it.

Again, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of DVAR or whatever.