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dorgan, JonC et al who played/coached re Belichick SB XLVI

Big Blue '56 : 1/26/2020 6:53 am
We all have seen and commented innumerable times about the incredible Manning throw and Manningham catch. We’ve seen the replays, from all angles, innumerable times as well.

I do not recall seeing the Cruz and/or Nicks routes on the play via TV. This all said, I harken back to the Belichick admonishment on the sidelines:

Quote:
“This is still a Cruz-and-Nicks game. I know we’re right on them. It’s tight, but those are still the guys. Make them go to Manningham, make them go to [Bear] Pascoe. Let’s make sure we get Cruz and Nicks.”




So here’s what’s been rolling around the gray matter from time to time:

Normally in double coverage, you see either the underneath guy or the over the top guy close on the ball. In this case, it doesn’t APPEAR to be the case at all. What I saw (or thought I did) was absolute blanket coverage on MM.

So, despite BB’s directive, does that mean Cruz or Nicks were open, perhaps wide open, on the play?






This article said they were both well covered  
jlukes : 1/26/2020 7:28 am : link
It was cover 2 by the Pats with the two safities playing halves over the top

Quote:
Just before the snap, the Patriots rotated into a two-deep look, with their two safeties dropping into deep "halves." Manning recognized it. Quarterbacks aren't supposed to throw deep sideline routes against a Cover 2 -- too risky -- but Manning looked to his right and didn't see anyone open.

Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks ran corner routes on the strong side, but they were well-covered. Manning did something the great quarterbacks do, using his eyes to freeze the safeties for a nanosecond. That opened the smallest of windows for him to throw to the back side, to throw to Manningham.

"It was Cover 2. Usually, that's not the matchup," Manning said, admitting that what he did went against the Quarterback Handbook.

Link - ( New Window )
My guess is that neither  
section125 : 1/26/2020 7:31 am : link
Cruz or Nicks threaten the deep middle freeing the safety to rotate over and attempt to get on Manningham. I also believe Eli looked the safety off first to hold him in the middle for a step or two or just enough time to get the ball over the top.
I never saw the all-22 view of that play. I tried looking for it.  
robbieballs2003 : 1/26/2020 7:38 am : link
I found this however. It shows the Pats just sitting in a cover 2 a lot. The safeties over the top would focus on anyone deep or a specific player. You can see on the second play that the far safety jumped to either Nicks or Cruz and left Manningham one on one deep where he didn't make the play.

So, I am assuming here but it is the same thing. The Pats were probably in cover 2. There are a few ways to play cover 2 but one way is that the corner forces the WR in toward the field (away from the sideline) which means toward the safety. This helps out the safety meaning that safety has less area to cover. The corner depending on how aggressive the coverage is will ride the WR all the way to the safety. If there is nobody underneath that corner will keep riding. If a receiver threatens the area then either that or the actual throw will be the key for the corner to pass off the WR to the safety and jump the underneath route. I have no idea if there was an underneath route. I'd have to guess there wasn't.

As far as a the safeties responsibility goes, that depends. In that second clip they seem more focused on Cruz and Nick's so their responsibility seemed to be to take those guys away. However, a normal cover 2 will take away the deepest player from inside out. What I mean by the is in that second clip the safety's eyes are supposed to be on the number 2 WR from the sideline. If that receiver threatens you deep then that is your number one priority since that is an easier/shorter throw for the QB. You can start to drift a little towards that number 1 WR which was Manningham in that play. Once that number 2 WR breaks off his route (meaning not running) then that safety has to immediately get his ass over the top of the number 1 WR. Now, again, that is how you play it straight up. Belichick obviously threw his own wrinkle in there to take away Ctuz and Manningham hence why the safety jumped the inside route and left Manningham one on on deep. Manningham just didn't make the play.

Now, with me assuming again, that safety never budged on Manningham's throw so that tells me one of two things. One, maybe one of Nicks or Cruz was running deep down the seem to hold the safety deep and created just enough room for that ball to sneak in or, two, neither one of Cruz or Nicks were on that side of the field which makes that play even more amazing. Maybe one of them were in the slot on the other side of the formation and they were running a deep post from the other side of the field and the opposite safety was keying in on them.

A couple of more things. One, as a deep safety your job is to read inside out. The hard part comes when you get a route from the other side of the field. How often do you see a safety bite up on one side of the field because he has two short routes and then someone beats him deep that came from the other side of the field? That is where communication comes in. You have to trust the players around you. If someone crosses your face you have to communicate that to the other players. This goes for LBs too. We would always tell IN, IN, IN as our key but it can be anything. That let's that backside defenders know that there is some kind of crossing route such as a post, dig, drag, etc.

Two, there are different types of ways to play a cover 2. Earlier I said that defenders would force receivers in toward the safety for help. Well, when you start thinking about the Tampa 2 they would rely on a TE running down the middle of the field because that would be a huge weakness in a cover 2 defense. If the safeties both bail out wide then right down the middle of the field is wide open. So that is why a LB like Urlacher was so goo because he could play in the box but also run 40 yards downfield. Also, the corners could also be instructed to now force WRs toward the sidelines instead of toward the middle of the field. The positive to this is that you now use the sideline as your help, the safeties widen out immediately and the LB will take care of the middle of the field. The negative to this is in zone you want the defenders' eyes on the ball and receivers. The corners by forcing the receivers to the sidelines have to turn their backs to the ball. It also puts a lot of responsibility and area to cover on the MLB.
Sorry  
robbieballs2003 : 1/26/2020 7:39 am : link
Here is the link but not of the specific play.
Link - ( New Window )
Pats played it very well  
Jimmy Googs : 1/26/2020 7:43 am : link
Eli and MM just beat them...
I was sitting on 45 yard line.....Manningham catch in front of me  
George from PA : 1/26/2020 7:46 am : link
The ball was in the air for a longtime....seems like it took forever to come down....FS had a good jump and coming hard....

I was praying the FS does not make it....ball coming, FS coming...feels like it was yesterday.

I would not say Manningham had double coverage....as FS was just playing deep and had a good jump on the play.

Cruz and Nicks seemed covered.... slotted by the LBers.
Thank you for that awesome breakdown robbie...  
JCin332 : 1/26/2020 8:09 am : link
From jlukes article:

Quote:
But doesn't Manning himself go against the handbook? Hasn't that become the beauty of Manning? The gunslinging daredevil aspect of it all. His faith in himself and his receivers is so complete, honed during hours of weekly Friday film sessions -- the ones in which, the receivers say, he does all of the talking and they just listen -- that he brings no fear with him on game day. And that's why there's no quarterback in the league who tries -- and makes -- more dangerous throws than Manning does.

He's vintage Tiger Woods, bending an impossible five-iron around a tree. He's Greg Maddux living on the corners of the plate while dominating the National League with the Atlanta Braves. He's Brett Favre with better endings. Manning knew he wasn't supposed to throw that ball, but he had a pretty good idea he could hit that teeny, tiny spot, and that if he did Manningham could make the catch of his life. And as he was so often during the Giants' season-ending six-game winning streak, he was right.


This sums up Eli...and the thing that makes me angry is this article was written in 2012 and there should have been a lot more playoff games and possibly another Lombardi trophy if not for the incompetence of the Giants in building a team...
The one aspect of the play that doesn't discussed enough  
Diver_Down : 1/26/2020 8:20 am : link
is Manningham leaving the tiniest window for Manning. He was often chastised for running deep sideline routes where he would be squeezed out of bounds. It happened often prior to that pass. It almost happened again on the route, but Manningham was able to stick both feet in-bounds prior to falling on the ground with the completed catch. Incredible effort on both Manning and Manningham.
RE: The one aspect of the play that doesn't discussed enough  
Jimmy Googs : 1/26/2020 8:29 am : link
In comment 14793930 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
is Manningham leaving the tiniest window for Manning. He was often chastised for running deep sideline routes where he would be squeezed out of bounds. It happened often prior to that pass. It almost happened again on the route, but Manningham was able to stick both feet in-bounds prior to falling on the ground with the completed catch. Incredible effort on both Manning and Manningham.


Good post...
.  
crick n NC : 1/26/2020 8:40 am : link
Earlier in the 11 season Manningham had the same route and the defense was in cover 2 man under which meant the corner would trail behind Manningham (Manningham was running a streak on the outside) to eliminate underneath throws. The safety plays over the top to bracket Manningham, taking away the deep throw. In that particular game Manningham recognized the coverage and gave up on the route, while Manning threw the ball anyway. The pass was incomplete. Manning told Manningham to continue on that route anyway with all effort to keep the defense honest, and of course if the safety cheated inside Manningham would have the potential for a big play.

Fast forward to that first play of the game winning drive. The same situation as before. Now this time Manning looks right and pulla deep left safety a couple of steps to the middle. Manningham continued on his streak even though the PATS had the kryptonite coverage (cover 2 over under) and Manning put the ball in the perfect location and Manningham made an awesome catch that took total concentration.
I will bump this up once more (tomorrow)  
Big Blue '56 : 1/26/2020 11:24 am : link
in order to get more input from those who don’t come on here during the weekends
The play I always wonder about was the Helmet catch  
montanagiant : 1/26/2020 11:47 am : link
The play-by-play call of it says Tyree is wide open yet that's not the case when the ball gets there and I have never seen a different angle on that play from the one on the highlight vids. So how open was he?
No way was Tyree wide open.....  
George from PA : 1/26/2020 12:02 pm : link
.
RE: No way was Tyree wide open.....  
Big Blue '56 : 1/26/2020 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14794159 George from PA said:
Quote:
.


According to those who were there, he was wide open (we could not see how much from the TV) for a short while until Harrison closed real fast.
RE: I was sitting on 45 yard line.....Manningham catch in front of me  
flycatcher : 1/26/2020 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14793910 George from PA said:
Quote:
The ball was in the air for a longtime....seems like it took forever to come down....FS had a good jump and coming hard....

I was praying the FS does not make it....ball coming, FS coming...feels like it was yesterday.

I would not say Manningham had double coverage....as FS was just playing deep and had a good jump on the play.

Cruz and Nicks seemed covered.... slotted by the LBers.

Great post!
RE: The play I always wonder about was the Helmet catch  
robbieballs2003 : 1/26/2020 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14794141 montanagiant said:
Quote:
The play-by-play call of it says Tyree is wide open yet that's not the case when the ball gets there and I have never seen a different angle on that play from the one on the highlight vids. So how open was he?


He was open but by the time the ball got there defenders got there. Eli threw that up to the moon. Tyree stood still the whole time. As he was standing there waiting for it Rodney Harrison came over.
Off the top of my head I don't recall  
JonC : 1/26/2020 1:22 pm : link
I do think crick is right about the regular season game, a lot of cover 2 man under with the CBs trailing the receivers.
RE: RE: The play I always wonder about was the Helmet catch  
Big Blue '56 : 1/26/2020 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14794269 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14794141 montanagiant said:


Quote:


The play-by-play call of it says Tyree is wide open yet that's not the case when the ball gets there and I have never seen a different angle on that play from the one on the highlight vids. So how open was he?



He was open but by the time the ball got there defenders got there. Eli threw that up to the moon. Tyree stood still the whole time. As he was standing there waiting for it Rodney Harrison came over.


That was my understanding
Trail technique is a BB staple  
JonC : 1/26/2020 2:27 pm : link
along with the cover 2. I've heard coaches prefer zone principles in order to build players towards being multiple.
RE: The play I always wonder about was the Helmet catch  
giantstock : 1/27/2020 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14794141 montanagiant said:
Quote:
The play-by-play call of it says Tyree is wide open yet that's not the case when the ball gets there and I have never seen a different angle on that play from the one on the highlight vids. So how open was he?


I'm with you.
He wasn't wide open. That's a joke. Not even close. Look at the 17 second mark below. Rodney Harrison was right there with Tyree. You want to say Tyree was "open" - okay.

In regards ot his pass - as he was struggling through the rush - he broke free just at around the 38 yard line - losing his balance a bit and his momentum takes him to about the 33- he gathers for an instant and throws from about the 34 with rushers oncoming. That was about a 41 yard pass. That's like a "bomb," isn't it? So yeah there was air on the ball.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxiHMIM4NWI


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