So I'm throwing this out there, because we are getting a plethora of threads on drafting Oline in the first and second round this year:
Our current Oline that started last season,ie.: Solder (LT) Hernandez (LG), Halapio (c), Zeitler (RG), Remmers (RT); started out strong last season and then progressively got worse as the season unfolded.
What if the problem was just crappy coaching, and not crappy talent. What if Gates is a sufficient replacement for Remmers, or you can even resign Remmers with Gates as a back up and all they need is a better coaching staff;
What if Judge is putting together a better coaching staff and the Oline bounces back with the existing personnel?
Is this possible? How do you view the coming draft if this is possible.
Isn't it possible that instead of jettisoning staff and taking cap hits, giving up on Hernandez who was showing great promise in his rookie year, giving up on Solder who has had good games out there, Giving up on Zeitler who has a history of performing well, giving up on Halapio who has also had good games out there; that the oline staff is really already currently in place and that you really don't need to spend another premium pick on the oline in a year when all the upper prospects have warts.
The mere fact that a majority of you can make up your minds on an oline prospect to draft at 4 ought to worry some of you in the first place. Reaching for a pick is not a good draft strategy.
Also our FO staffs with this philosophy: use FA to bolster/fill in the staff so that at draft time you you can take BPA.
Isn't it possible that what has been taking place is that the Giants don't wish to throw the baby out with the bath water, that they believe in the majority of the current player personnel; that the bulk of the Shurmur coaching staff took the brunt for the bad performance of the team because they didn't select the best coaching staff?
We've been hearing things like the FO didn't think highly of this one, that one and the other one - it's all been coaches in this category, not players.
Doesn't it follow that if you are going BPA in the draft - you stay away from suspect Oline draftees in round 1; that maybe you take a flyer on talent on day two or even day three prospects if they fit your profile and are a good value?
Better coaching can only do so much. It won't fix a guy who looks like he lost it entirely (Solder) or a guy that just doesn't look like he has it period (Pio).
DC has some pretty stiff competition. Sheridan , Johnny Lynn. Rod Rust .
Zeitler has been good for too long and is still Young. Hernendez is a high pick who has shown enough flashes to believe he is still OK. Gates very small sample size but graded out as our top OL. The rest shouldn't be in our long term plans.
Torrag, I have following reactions to your statements. the FO has made statements supporting Halapio, and that he may be better with better coaching; two is that Gates may be a sufficient replacement for Remmers, and that if Remmers can't be replaced in the draft this year with good value that the FO may be able to sign another reasonable RT in this stead and let Gates stay as a swing/position back up. Doesn't it make sense to go where the value is (all things being equal)?
While I am encouraged by the offensive additions coaching wise Garrett (should at minimum be competent) and Columbo. Graham scares me with our DC track record of huge whiffs. Really hope he turns out to be good.
Very true.
I really like Ruiz in this Draft. I wasn't sure he'd declare. When he did he became my #1 OC even ahead of Humphrey(who stayed in) and Biadasz. I'd love it if we could get our greedy hands on him. I also like Cushenberry but not as early. We'd probably have to add a selection between our current 2nd and late 3rd comp pick to get him.
Listened to Tony Pauline today on WFAN, Offensive tackle and Center are very deep this year. We should always be looking to add talent to the Oline. Better coaching and more talent and maybe we can have our first "We have too many good offensive linemen" Thread.
I really like Ruiz in this Draft. I wasn't sure he'd declare. When he did he became my #1 OC even ahead of Humphrey(who stayed in) and Biadasz. I'd love it if we could get our greedy hands on him. I also like Cushenberry but not as early. We'd probably have to add a selection between our current 2nd and late 3rd comp pick to get him.
Like the OCs a lot but not if we get the big rookie LT. Too much youth for a line we want to play consistent next year.
Zeitler is 29, hardly the back nine..geez.
For starters, none of Solder, Zeitler, or Remmers played as well as they have in the past when they were on other teams. That's a clear indication that there were some significant coaching issues.
It's also possible that Solder and/or Remmers is starting to head over the hill. And Remmers is a free agent. They absolutely, positively have to stop screwing around and draft a solid OT prospect this year, and I don't mean some third-day cross-your-fingers-and-hope-to-hell-he-makes-it guy.
At Center, the talent simply is not there. All three Centers on the roster right now need to be replaced. I actually think this is a bigger problem than the OTs or any other position on this football team because the C runs the OL and is the guy who protects the shortest distance from the DL to the QB among other things. We don't want Jones to develop the yips like Eli did because they could not block adequately for him.
As an adjunct need to C, they also have to find a good long snapper to replace de Ossie who has clearly gone over the hill. They do have two journeymen on the roster now, but they are both guys who didn't make it with other teams. So using a late third-day pick on a LS isn't out of the question either.
Remember, place kickers usually score more points than anyone else on the team and every placement starts with a long snap. That's not to mention that a blown punt snap can change the complexion of a game in a big hurry, too. LS is a position that most fans take for granted until something blows up and costs the team a game, as we have seen happen to both the G-men and to opponents in the past. The GIANTS absolutely, positively have to find another at least average one this off-season.
So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
If Nate Solder costs the Giants 20M against this year's cap, they deserve the LOLs that will undoubtedly follow.
agree...
and I was saying there is no way we missed this badly on every OL draft pick and free agent pickup. Coaching HAD TO be a significant factor.
So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
Red Dog - I just don't see that this is a good year for OLs at the top of the draft. This year the discussion of the top OL prospects reminds me very much of the discussion around the top 4 QBs two years ago. There seems to be no consensus whatsoever about them. In fact of the four top prospects there are schools that are each reaching to place their guy as the top guy. They all have warts. I don't want to spend the number 4 pick on a OLman just for the sake of drafting him and end up with an average Olineman -- that just bad drafting.
There may well be depth in the later rounds for an Oline pick - but I just don't see it as a good bet in the top 10 - I really don't.
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So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
Red Dog - I just don't see that this is a good year for OLs at the top of the draft. This year the discussion of the top OL prospects reminds me very much of the discussion around the top 4 QBs two years ago. There seems to be no consensus whatsoever about them. In fact of the four top prospects there are schools that are each reaching to place their guy as the top guy. They all have warts. I don't want to spend the number 4 pick on a OLman just for the sake of drafting him and end up with an average Olineman -- that just bad drafting.
There may well be depth in the later rounds for an Oline pick - but I just don't see it as a good bet in the top 10 - I really don't.
To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
Yes -- and Rosen, Baker, Darnold, and Allen went through the same sorting and were picked in the top ten -- with various BBIer's jumping off of cliffs when the Giants didn't draft QB at 2 -- and each of them probably would have set the franchise back if they were picked.
You don't pick for upside in the top ten of the draft -- you pick the best value. If experts are all contradicting themselves about the value of the top four Olinemen - just like they did with the 2018 class of QBs - wouldn't you want to run the other way.
If you pick an Erik Flowers, or a Justin Pugh in the first round again -- aren't you setting the Giants backwards?
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To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
Yes -- and Rosen, Baker, Darnold, and Allen went through the same sorting and were picked in the top ten -- with various BBIer's jumping off of cliffs when the Giants didn't draft QB at 2 -- and each of them probably would have set the franchise back if they were picked.
You don't pick for upside in the top ten of the draft -- you pick the best value. If experts are all contradicting themselves about the value of the top four Olinemen - just like they did with the 2018 class of QBs - wouldn't you want to run the other way.
If you pick an Erik Flowers, or a Justin Pugh in the first round again -- aren't you setting the Giants backwards?
Becton and Wills show a lot on tape already not just untapped potential . Jeremiah and a bunch of others agree.
Almost nobody is a can't miss.
LT Solder: Played worse than he did with his last team/coach
LG Hernandez: May no progress from year 1 to year 2
C Halapio: No progress as year went
RG Zeitler: Played worse than he did with last team/coach
RT Remmers: Is what he was coming in, a average to below average journeyman
Reserve Players
T/G Gates: The one guy who seemed to really improve
T Smith: Was admittedly unprepared in the game action he saw
C Pulley: Looked worse than last year
So what we see is 2 veteran players with proven track records taking steps back when the came to NY. Our most promising young player on the line not progressing from year 1 to 2. Both our centers taking steps back and only 1 of 8 players to play a notable number of snaps (Gates) improved at all.
Couple these points with the fact that Hal Hunter arguably has the worst resume of an oline coach in the NFL, yes coaching was a problem with our line. Do we need to upgrade a position or 2? Yes. Should they have been as bad as they were last year? No.
Better coaching will equal a better line.
We don't have a Center or a Right Tackle, and our Left Tackle has played poorly for the past two years for a variety of reasons.
We also have a bunch of scrubs, UDFA's, late-round picks that a lot of people are hoping can become serviceable players.
Yes, better coaching can only help, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent in place to benefit from it.
Scheme? Might contribute, but in some games they were each worse than just bad. I watched Remmers get beat like a drum by rushers in too many games.
Halapio is a backup.
Remmers just stinks.
Coaching isnt going to change any of that.
We don't have a Center or a Right Tackle, and our Left Tackle has played poorly for the past two years for a variety of reasons.
We also have a bunch of scrubs, UDFA's, late-round picks that a lot of people are hoping can become serviceable players.
Yes, better coaching can only help, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent in place to benefit from it.
Even more reason to greatly upgrade the most important spot on the line: Left Tackle.
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Because the coaching did suck. Odds are we need more talent. And regardless of coaching or the current players on the team we need to always be looking to make it better. With that said, I am excited to see a well coached group. Mixed assignments, bad techniques, no communication, etc. is very frustrating.
Zeitler has been good for too long and is still Young. Hernendez is a high pick who has shown enough flashes to believe he is still OK. Gates very small sample size but graded out as our top OL. The rest shouldn't be in our long term plans.
Like you, Im not worried about Zeitler, Hernandez, and Gates. Im pretty sure Remmers is gone so that leaves Solder remaining. I know he was not that bad on Patriots so Im willing to say maybe the coaching plus his child concerns overwhelmed him this year. Plus, I believe he had an injury. I believe he will be a good enough RT to LT wherever he plays.
I do believe we draft a tackle in either round one or two and I expect him to start. And yes, I believe we will all see a huge difference in the coaching that will translate into better play.
Theres no spin that can change this.
So even if Solder/Hernandez/Zeitler can play better with better coaching, they still need to upgrade 2/5 of the OL.
Personally I think Hernandez and Zeitler are good players. Solder has been terrible but its probably worth riding it out one more year with him while his eventual replacement through the draft develops (hopefully). There is some merit to the idea Solder may be able to play better. He was an above average LT in NE. Hes not old. Hes had some injury issues and personal issues. Improving the Center position may allow him to play his game.
To my highly unqualified eyes, it looked like there was poor preparation and attention to detail. If I am correct, a better coaching staff might get them to perform better.
The Pugh pick was emblematic of a team that all but ignored the obvious deterioration of its offensive line for the two years prior to the 2013 draft.
A team that waited until the very end of the 4th round in 2012 to draft an O-Lineman (Brandon Mosley, #131, then 6th rounder Matt McCants, #201), and tried to coach up guys like James Brewer and Selvish Capers.
A team that was in such lousy financial straits that they couldn't do anything about their O-Line in 2013 before the draft, then panicked when there was a run on OT's, and spent their 1st round pick (#21) on a guy who turned out to be a very average LG.
Many of them starting too.... Guys who were useless here such as Bobby Hart and Flowers left and became at least useful elsewhere. Is Newhouse still playing? He suddenly became serviceable again when he got away from our coaching....
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Whether Solder stays or not since his dead money is so large , we need that new LT THIS year.
At LT that guy almost always needs to be round 1.
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Between free agency and the draft, I think we should concentrate on defense in free agency. There's a larger pool of top-tier defenders to choose from than there are top-tier O-Linemen.
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of spending minimal resources this year on the OL for exactly this reason. My expectation is that the OL needs to be fixed on the coaching side - we cannot yet again say it's on the coaches.
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Between free agency and the draft, I think we should concentrate on defense in free agency. There's a larger pool of top-tier defenders to choose from than there are top-tier O-Linemen.
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That too. I thought Hal Hunter and Betccher were two of the worst coaches I've ever seen with the Giants. Good point.
DC has some pretty stiff competition. Sheridan , Johnny Lynn. Rod Rust .
Tim Lewis right up here. And Al Groh sucked ass too
I do believe Hernandez will improve greatly by way of better coaching and experience. He is young. I think Gates should get a shot at OC if it is a position he can play and we can't sign someone knew. Hilapio sucks and I believe he was hurt badly the last game, right? Hilapio is also a UFA so no guarantee we'll try to keep him anyway.
Remmers can be re-signed as a stop-gap player with experience. Remmers can play RT, RG and LG as I understand it so he has some versatility.
Our best bet to upgrade te OL is via UFA and draft, round 2.
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In comment 14794705 Dan in the Springs said:
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of spending minimal resources this year on the OL for exactly this reason. My expectation is that the OL needs to be fixed on the coaching side - we cannot yet again say it's on the coaches.
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Between free agency and the draft, I think we should concentrate on defense in free agency. There's a larger pool of top-tier defenders to choose from than there are top-tier O-Linemen.
I agree, this draft should be "DEFENSE" oriented; however, if a guy like Becton "wows" at the combine and elsewhere I can see us seriously considering him over Okudah or Simmons or Brown.
Quality LTs rarely get out of round 1. Rarely .
If Becton and/or Wills (or another like Jones) make the grade you got to pull the trigger round 1. At most you do it with a slight tradedown for a QB hungry team.
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In comment 14794705 Dan in the Springs said:
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of spending minimal resources this year on the OL for exactly this reason. My expectation is that the OL needs to be fixed on the coaching side - we cannot yet again say it's on the coaches.
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Between free agency and the draft, I think we should concentrate on defense in free agency. There's a larger pool of top-tier defenders to choose from than there are top-tier O-Linemen.
I agree, this draft should be "DEFENSE" oriented; however, if a guy like Becton "wows" at the combine and elsewhere I can see us seriously considering him over Okudah or Simmons or Brown.
Who are you agreeing with? Not me. I said that defense should be our focus in free agency, not the draft. I'd like to see O-Linemen cluster-drafted this year, along with tapping a WR and TE. If the stars align for a good defender or two in the draft, so be it, but my preference is offense. Hell, we've already spent the 68th pick on Leonard Williams, signed or not.
I do believe Hernandez will improve greatly by way of better coaching and experience. He is young. I think Gates should get a shot at OC if it is a position he can play and we can't sign someone knew. Hilapio sucks and I believe he was hurt badly the last game, right? Hilapio is also a UFA so no guarantee we'll try to keep him anyway.
Remmers can be re-signed as a stop-gap player with experience. Remmers can play RT, RG and LG as I understand it so he has some versatility.
Our best bet to upgrade te OL is via UFA and draft, round 2.
Some permutations:
LT: worst case Solder to start then Becton/Wills (this HAS to be upgraded)
LG: Hernendez
OC: Gates, Thuney , or McGovern (need a vet signal caller) maybe get another guy to groom in a year or 2.
RG: Zietler
RT: Gates ,Thuney, Conklin, DJ Humphries
My fave which wont break the bank:
Becton- Hernendez- McGovern - Zietler- Gates.
Monster LT who could be good very quickly
A Center nothing special but is a solid, proven vet at the signal caller spot on the OL. Huge upgrade to Pio day 1.
Small sample size but Gates played very well at RT and has gotten rave reviews by many in the Giants organization. Less proven but likely upgrade to Remmers
Kinda related, I'm tired of hearing the "wisdom" that DG "knows lineman." You mean like Solder and Omameh?
Gates is a good 6th man. Pulley can be a back up. Hilapio needs to be done.
...Halapio ain't much better.
And sometimes it's just downright scary watching how stiff Will Hernandez plays and how often he lets a stunting lineman crash through his inside shoulder.
I don't know what the hell was up with Kevin Zeitler last season (injuries?) and Mike Remmers was who we thought he was -- a well-worn tire with not a lot of tread left on it.
This is a low ceiling O-line as currently constructed. We are in desperate need of new talent. Then let's talk about a better O-line coach.
Give him the RT spot or OC if he can play it and upgrade the LT spot with a rookie phenom. Then bring in the best vet you can find on the market for the remaining spot not filled by Gates.
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of spending minimal resources this year on the OL for exactly this reason. My expectation is that the OL needs to be fixed on the coaching side - we cannot yet again say it's on the coaches.
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.
Between free agency and the draft, I think we should concentrate on defense in free agency. There's a larger pool of top-tier defenders to choose from than there are top-tier O-Linemen.
You cant really say that with regards to FA. The Giants are going to have to move quick on the big ticket FAs that are remotely interested in playing here, and they shouldnt narrow the pool to one side of the ball. Especially so if Conklin wants to play here.
Maybe not at #4, but definitely at 2, 3, or 4.
Maybe find a FA who can at least not suck.
I don't think there's any doubt that we need a new C.
Pray that Solder was injured, or distracted, and can rebound to not being a detriment.
As others said, coaching/scheme may increase OL play, but you can't expect miracles. This line needs a lot of increase to get to meh. Coaching/scheme has to be part of the solution, but it isn't going to be the whole solution. Good may be out of reach for this year.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
More often than not it was the OL getting beat on pass rush and easily shedded on the rush. No OL coach tells solder to get pushed back by the bull rush into the Qb in 2 seconds. Or tells pio to block air any time his assignment is the 2nd level or a screen.
They don’t need to be perfect - but those two were awful last year and DG said as much in his mea culpa tour about getting Eli the protection he needed.
Assuming they dont trade down in round 1 I would target a LT in round 2, Austin Jackson or Josh Jones. Also draft a center in round 3 or 4.
I would not trust Solder for a hot minute watching the back of DJ
2Isnt it possible that the Tackles and the Center suck? At the very least 2 of the 3 suck? Isnt it possible?
3What are the most important positions on the OLINe? They are Tackles and center, correct? And what is the worst for the Giants? They are the Tackles and Center.
4Isnt it possible that the OLINe will suck and the end result is Jones ends up taking too much off a beating? Why take that risk? What is more valuable than a potential young franchise QB? Why take the risk of not properly protecting the most important position on the football field?
5aIsnt it possible that if you give Barkley a good OLINe that will be able to perform at super-all-time-elite levels? This is our gold-Jacket guy, right? A Gold-Jacket guy with a good OLINe and a good QB should perform near all-time elite level, right?
5bIsnt it possible that if the OLINe suck, then Barkley might only perform pretty-good vs if he had a good OLINE he might perform all-time great?
6Isnt it possible that we should expect from the GM and scouting staff to perform at a certain level that we arent making excuses for them by saying things like suspect OLINe draftees in rd 1? why is it other teams seem to be able to draft non-suspect rd 1 OLINe guys and we cant? SO the answer is give up taking rd 1 guys because they are suspect? How about getting better draft evaluators and let the other guy draft the suspect 1st rd OL draftees?
7Isnt it possible Giants can trade down and get a BPA OL in rd 1?
8- If the Giants drat a very good OL and he helps make Jones and Barkley better I wouldnt call that reaching.
For the record I am okay taking Okudah. But after FA they must realize someone like Okudah will be available. If you know you are going Young or Okudah or Simmons with the 4th pick then you had better have gotten a tackle or center in FA and target one for early 2nd rd or move up in 1st like they did last year with Baker and get another. Trading up is a form of BPA too.
Maybe not at #4, but definitely at 2, 3, or 4.
Maybe find a FA who can at least not suck.
I don't think there's any doubt that we need a new C.
Pray that Solder was injured, or distracted, and can rebound to not being a detriment.
As others said, coaching/scheme may increase OL play, but you can't expect miracles. This line needs a lot of increase to get to meh. Coaching/scheme has to be part of the solution, but it isn't going to be the whole solution. Good may be out of reach for this year.
If we want to upgrade the LT spot which is the most important position on the OL we need to strike in round 1. Otherwise you take a huge risk waiting as the quality non project LTs almost always go round 1.
2Isnt it possible that the Tackles and the Center suck? At the very least 2 of the 3 suck? Isnt it possible?
3What are the most important positions on the OLINe? They are Tackles and center, correct? And what is the worst for the Giants? They are the Tackles and Center.
4Isnt it possible that the OLINe will suck and the end result is Jones ends up taking too much off a beating? Why take that risk? What is more valuable than a potential young franchise QB? Why take the risk of not properly protecting the most important position on the football field?
5aIsnt it possible that if you give Barkley a good OLINe that will be able to perform at super-all-time-elite levels? This is our gold-Jacket guy, right? A Gold-Jacket guy with a good OLINe and a good QB should perform near all-time elite level, right?
5bIsnt it possible that if the OLINe suck, then Barkley might only perform pretty-good vs if he had a good OLINE he might perform all-time great?
6Isnt it possible that we should expect from the GM and scouting staff to perform at a certain level that we arent making excuses for them by saying things like suspect OLINe draftees in rd 1? why is it other teams seem to be able to draft non-suspect rd 1 OLINe guys and we cant? SO the answer is give up taking rd 1 guys because they are suspect? How about getting better draft evaluators and let the other guy draft the suspect 1st rd OL draftees?
7Isnt it possible Giants can trade down and get a BPA OL in rd 1?
8- If the Giants drat a very good OL and he helps make Jones and Barkley better I wouldnt call that reaching.
For the record I am okay taking Okudah. But after FA they must realize someone like Okudah will be available. If you know you are going Young or Okudah or Simmons with the 4th pick then you had better have gotten a tackle or center in FA and target one for early 2nd rd or move up in 1st like they did last year with Baker and get another. Trading up is a form of BPA too.
Good post. Like most of what you say 1-7. Problem with 8 is pickings are pretty slim for Left Tackles and Centers in FA. There are some OGs and RTs but not many of the others.
The year we wanted Norwell it was him and Solder as the top potentially good to very good OL. That's basically it. We thought we were getting an in the prime Solder. We lost that gamble. Could it in part be coaching? Sure. However, he definitely looks like he lost a step too.
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8- If the Giants drat a very good OL and he helps make Jones and Barkley better I wouldnt call that reaching.
For the record I am okay taking Okudah. But after FA they must realize someone like Okudah will be available. If you know you are going Young or Okudah or Simmons with the 4th pick then you had better have gotten a tackle or center in FA and target one for early 2nd rd or move up in 1st like they did last year with Baker and get another. Trading up is a form of BPA too.
Good post. Like most of what you say 1-7. Problem with 8 is pickings are pretty slim for Left Tackles and Centers in FA. There are some OGs and RTs but not many of the others.
The year we wanted Norwell it was him and Solder as the top potentially good to very good OL. That's basically it. We thought we were getting an in the prime Solder. We lost that gamble. Could it in part be coaching? Sure. However, he definitely looks like he lost a step too.
If they know they are going to get Okudah (or Simmons for example) -
Then at least they should've gotten a RT for example. Then in early rd 2 or do what they did last year to get Baker and trade up to get a center. Now they have 4 OLIENMEN. Just get a TE or a RB to chip the edge - sure they will struggle but it's not like they are super bowl ready in 2020.
I would be ok with Remmers back and solid young OTs to develop. There seems to be decent depth at OT and OC this year.
Coaching he got with the pats is irrelevant. Different scheme completely. The coach needs to get all the linemen working together in a cohesive unit. Hasn't happened in a while here.
Should Hernandez go from a promising guard the previous season to absolute crap the next .
But the proof is in the pudding , and it shall be will be determined, as the next season rolls along .
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
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and you almost are forced to find your LT via the draft. It wouldn't be a bad use of a draft pick to pluck an OG you believe could become a starter to push WH and in case of injury. Zeitler is still plenty capable but 29 isn't young in the NFL. Solder must rebound this season or is likely to walk the plank.
I would not trust Solder for a hot minute watching the back of DJ
I agree, even if the Giants add a top RT like Conklin they cant go into next season relying on just Solder at LT. They need to address LT in either the 1st or 2nd round.
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By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
And I do believe coaching matters. And I hope with better coaching we see improvements from Hernandez and Zeitler.
My opinion of the talent at the other positions along the line is pretty bleak though. There is hope for Gates, but he is no sure thing the way some people seem to think. Coaching might help Gates as well...
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In comment 14794941 .McL. said:
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By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
Good coaches put their players in situations to succeed. I think Shurmur was quite poor with that. So, players who have quite limited physical ability or their ability has declined need a coach who knows how they can still help the team. If you think I am of the mindset that coaching is the entire problem you have mistaken, perhaps I haven't been clear with my opinion (it wouldn't be the first time I failed to be clear). I think crap coaching can make a good player look average, while also believe good coaching can make average players appear better than what they are, however the player must be sold on what the coach is teaching which goes back to the character of each player.
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In comment 14795048 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14794941 .McL. said:
Quote:
By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
Good coaches put their players in situations to succeed. I think Shurmur was quite poor with that. So, players who have quite limited physical ability or their ability has declined need a coach who knows how they can still help the team. If you think I am of the mindset that coaching is the entire problem you have mistaken, perhaps I haven't been clear with my opinion (it wouldn't be the first time I failed to be clear). I think crap coaching can make a good player look average, while also believe good coaching can make average players appear better than what they are, however the player must be sold on what the coach is teaching which goes back to the character of each player.
crick, I fully agree with you about the impact coaches CAN make. But they have to be working with material that molded and shaped appropriately.
As I keep mentioning, neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020. I doubt that either will be signed, possible Remmers if the team can't find a better option before training camp.
So what we have is Solder, Hernandez, Zeitler, Pulley and Gates. A really good coach might get them to perform above their overall pay grade, but my opinion is that will still be wayyyy below what we would consider a good offensive line, or even an average one. There just isn't enough there to work with. Solder is a year older, and he was never great, but he looks nothing like his former self. He looks stiff and slow as compared to 5 years ago. I think we have seen enough of Pulley to know that he just isn't very stout, and Gates is a UDFA that filled in and did reasonably well against some of the worst DLs in the league. Really tough trying to extrapolate that into anything more than just that. But there is some hope there, I won't deny that. It may be my opinion, but if you are going to say that that group is going to be something even approaching average, then you I think you will have to argue something more than just coaching.
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In comment 14795068 .McL. said:
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In comment 14795048 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14794941 .McL. said:
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By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
Good coaches put their players in situations to succeed. I think Shurmur was quite poor with that. So, players who have quite limited physical ability or their ability has declined need a coach who knows how they can still help the team. If you think I am of the mindset that coaching is the entire problem you have mistaken, perhaps I haven't been clear with my opinion (it wouldn't be the first time I failed to be clear). I think crap coaching can make a good player look average, while also believe good coaching can make average players appear better than what they are, however the player must be sold on what the coach is teaching which goes back to the character of each player.
crick, I fully agree with you about the impact coaches CAN make. But they have to be working with material that molded and shaped appropriately.
As I keep mentioning, neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020. I doubt that either will be signed, possible Remmers if the team can't find a better option before training camp.
So what we have is Solder, Hernandez, Zeitler, Pulley and Gates. A really good coach might get them to perform above their overall pay grade, but my opinion is that will still be wayyyy below what we would consider a good offensive line, or even an average one. There just isn't enough there to work with. Solder is a year older, and he was never great, but he looks nothing like his former self. He looks stiff and slow as compared to 5 years ago. I think we have seen enough of Pulley to know that he just isn't very stout, and Gates is a UDFA that filled in and did reasonably well against some of the worst DLs in the league. Really tough trying to extrapolate that into anything more than just that. But there is some hope there, I won't deny that. It may be my opinion, but if you are going to say that that group is going to be something even approaching average, then you I think you will have to argue something more than just coaching.
👍
I also wonder how a team performing poorly affects the players performance. Low moral I am sure plays a role.
Mcl, I am of the understanding that Solder may perform the same or even worse. I am hoping that coaching makes a noticeable positive difference while at the same time understanding that even that noticeable positive difference isn't enough.
As I've said before, they absolutely need to get 1 OT and a C (one in FA, one in the draft, no preference which comes from where) this year and then coach them up as a unit.
👍
I also wonder how a team performing poorly affects the players performance. Low moral I am sure plays a role.
Mcl, I am of the understanding that Solder may perform the same or even worse. I am hoping that coaching makes a noticeable positive difference while at the same time understanding that even that noticeable positive difference isn't enough.
I'm sure low morale doesn't help, but that doesn't excuse the lousy early season performance. The morale shouldn't be in the crapper after what appeared to be a solid preseason, not that preseason counts for anything except perhaps morale.
That said, I think we have reached consensus, yes coaching may make a noticeable difference but it won't be enough. More talent is needed.
Confusion indicated coaching was an issue
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In comment 14794941 .McL. said:
Quote:
By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
In this case I think it was both. Zietler and Hernendez looked a lot worse than they should have.
But yes Solder and Remmers clearly look like they lost a step out there. Pio never had that step to begin with.
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In comment 14795048 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14794941 .McL. said:
Quote:
By now we should all realize that hope never goes very far in the NFL. It's far more likely that "hopefuls" wind up on the scrap heap, rather than going on to become something.
Also, it should be noted that neither Remmers nor Halapio are signed for 2020, and Halapio has a torn Achilles anyway.
And no, coaching isnt going to help Solder, Halapio or Remmers.
I don't think it's unreasonable to consider that coaching could help in a measurable way. I don't agree with the certainty of your statement. I am not arguing to keep the players stated necessarily. Perhaps we just value coaching differently.
I've been watching these guys closely. the freshness date is past on Solder and Remmers. That isn't a coaching issue. Neither moves well anymore. I've compared them to younger versions of themselves, and the difference in overall movement is stark. Halapio never really had much talent to begin with. I really don't see how coaching is going to matter much. Besides Remmers and Halapio are not signed for 2020.
So what the Giants really have right now is two guards and one of the worst tackles in the league... And a whole lotta hoping for Gates.
And you guys are pinning your hopes on coaching... There is a reality here that is being sorely overlooked.
In this case I think it was both. Zietler and Hernendez looked a lot worse than they should have.
But yes Solder and Remmers clearly look like they lost a step out there. Pio never had that step to begin with.
If you hit on Becton the whole line benefits. Just a mammoth. Can't wait to see him.in combine drills.
Not so fast...I heard plenty of BBI comments over the past few years that O-line was not a strength in that particular draft, yet teams still find better guys than we have starters.
Lets stay real and put a magnifying glass on everything we do as a franchise. Because its not been good...