So I'm throwing this out there, because we are getting a plethora of threads on drafting Oline in the first and second round this year:
Our current Oline that started last season,ie.: Solder (LT) Hernandez (LG), Halapio (c), Zeitler (RG), Remmers (RT); started out strong last season and then progressively got worse as the season unfolded.
What if the problem was just crappy coaching, and not crappy talent. What if Gates is a sufficient replacement for Remmers, or you can even resign Remmers with Gates as a back up and all they need is a better coaching staff;
What if Judge is putting together a better coaching staff and the Oline bounces back with the existing personnel?
Is this possible? How do you view the coming draft if this is possible.
Isn't it possible that instead of jettisoning staff and taking cap hits, giving up on Hernandez who was showing great promise in his rookie year, giving up on Solder who has had good games out there, Giving up on Zeitler who has a history of performing well, giving up on Halapio who has also had good games out there; that the oline staff is really already currently in place and that you really don't need to spend another premium pick on the oline in a year when all the upper prospects have warts.
The mere fact that a majority of you can make up your minds on an oline prospect to draft at 4 ought to worry some of you in the first place. Reaching for a pick is not a good draft strategy.
Also our FO staffs with this philosophy: use FA to bolster/fill in the staff so that at draft time you you can take BPA.
Isn't it possible that what has been taking place is that the Giants don't wish to throw the baby out with the bath water, that they believe in the majority of the current player personnel; that the bulk of the Shurmur coaching staff took the brunt for the bad performance of the team because they didn't select the best coaching staff?
We've been hearing things like the FO didn't think highly of this one, that one and the other one - it's all been coaches in this category, not players.
Doesn't it follow that if you are going BPA in the draft - you stay away from suspect Oline draftees in round 1; that maybe you take a flyer on talent on day two or even day three prospects if they fit your profile and are a good value?
Better coaching can only do so much. It won't fix a guy who looks like he lost it entirely (Solder) or a guy that just doesn't look like he has it period (Pio).
DC has some pretty stiff competition. Sheridan , Johnny Lynn. Rod Rust .
Zeitler has been good for too long and is still Young. Hernendez is a high pick who has shown enough flashes to believe he is still OK. Gates very small sample size but graded out as our top OL. The rest shouldn't be in our long term plans.
Torrag, I have following reactions to your statements. the FO has made statements supporting Halapio, and that he may be better with better coaching; two is that Gates may be a sufficient replacement for Remmers, and that if Remmers can't be replaced in the draft this year with good value that the FO may be able to sign another reasonable RT in this stead and let Gates stay as a swing/position back up. Doesn't it make sense to go where the value is (all things being equal)?
While I am encouraged by the offensive additions coaching wise Garrett (should at minimum be competent) and Columbo. Graham scares me with our DC track record of huge whiffs. Really hope he turns out to be good.
Very true.
I really like Ruiz in this Draft. I wasn't sure he'd declare. When he did he became my #1 OC even ahead of Humphrey(who stayed in) and Biadasz. I'd love it if we could get our greedy hands on him. I also like Cushenberry but not as early. We'd probably have to add a selection between our current 2nd and late 3rd comp pick to get him.
Listened to Tony Pauline today on WFAN, Offensive tackle and Center are very deep this year. We should always be looking to add talent to the Oline. Better coaching and more talent and maybe we can have our first "We have too many good offensive linemen" Thread.
I really like Ruiz in this Draft. I wasn't sure he'd declare. When he did he became my #1 OC even ahead of Humphrey(who stayed in) and Biadasz. I'd love it if we could get our greedy hands on him. I also like Cushenberry but not as early. We'd probably have to add a selection between our current 2nd and late 3rd comp pick to get him.
Like the OCs a lot but not if we get the big rookie LT. Too much youth for a line we want to play consistent next year.
Zeitler is 29, hardly the back nine..geez.
For starters, none of Solder, Zeitler, or Remmers played as well as they have in the past when they were on other teams. That's a clear indication that there were some significant coaching issues.
It's also possible that Solder and/or Remmers is starting to head over the hill. And Remmers is a free agent. They absolutely, positively have to stop screwing around and draft a solid OT prospect this year, and I don't mean some third-day cross-your-fingers-and-hope-to-hell-he-makes-it guy.
At Center, the talent simply is not there. All three Centers on the roster right now need to be replaced. I actually think this is a bigger problem than the OTs or any other position on this football team because the C runs the OL and is the guy who protects the shortest distance from the DL to the QB among other things. We don't want Jones to develop the yips like Eli did because they could not block adequately for him.
As an adjunct need to C, they also have to find a good long snapper to replace de Ossie who has clearly gone over the hill. They do have two journeymen on the roster now, but they are both guys who didn't make it with other teams. So using a late third-day pick on a LS isn't out of the question either.
Remember, place kickers usually score more points than anyone else on the team and every placement starts with a long snap. That's not to mention that a blown punt snap can change the complexion of a game in a big hurry, too. LS is a position that most fans take for granted until something blows up and costs the team a game, as we have seen happen to both the G-men and to opponents in the past. The GIANTS absolutely, positively have to find another at least average one this off-season.
So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
If Nate Solder costs the Giants 20M against this year's cap, they deserve the LOLs that will undoubtedly follow.
agree...
and I was saying there is no way we missed this badly on every OL draft pick and free agent pickup. Coaching HAD TO be a significant factor.
So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
Red Dog - I just don't see that this is a good year for OLs at the top of the draft. This year the discussion of the top OL prospects reminds me very much of the discussion around the top 4 QBs two years ago. There seems to be no consensus whatsoever about them. In fact of the four top prospects there are schools that are each reaching to place their guy as the top guy. They all have warts. I don't want to spend the number 4 pick on a OLman just for the sake of drafting him and end up with an average Olineman -- that just bad drafting.
There may well be depth in the later rounds for an Oline pick - but I just don't see it as a good bet in the top 10 - I really don't.
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So don't screw around. They have a young, very capable franchise QB to protect and this is a good year for OLs, at least at the top of the draft. FIX THE OL NOW. As much as the defense needs a ton of help, it has to play second fiddle this spring.
Red Dog - I just don't see that this is a good year for OLs at the top of the draft. This year the discussion of the top OL prospects reminds me very much of the discussion around the top 4 QBs two years ago. There seems to be no consensus whatsoever about them. In fact of the four top prospects there are schools that are each reaching to place their guy as the top guy. They all have warts. I don't want to spend the number 4 pick on a OLman just for the sake of drafting him and end up with an average Olineman -- that just bad drafting.
There may well be depth in the later rounds for an Oline pick - but I just don't see it as a good bet in the top 10 - I really don't.
To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
Yes -- and Rosen, Baker, Darnold, and Allen went through the same sorting and were picked in the top ten -- with various BBIer's jumping off of cliffs when the Giants didn't draft QB at 2 -- and each of them probably would have set the franchise back if they were picked.
You don't pick for upside in the top ten of the draft -- you pick the best value. If experts are all contradicting themselves about the value of the top four Olinemen - just like they did with the 2018 class of QBs - wouldn't you want to run the other way.
If you pick an Erik Flowers, or a Justin Pugh in the first round again -- aren't you setting the Giants backwards?
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To each their own I guess but still a lot of evaluation to come. Combine might change your mind. Becton is a late comer but a lot of the top evaluators are pretty convinced he is already the real deal. Combine may cement that for both him and Wills in terms of upside at the all important LT spot.
Yes -- and Rosen, Baker, Darnold, and Allen went through the same sorting and were picked in the top ten -- with various BBIer's jumping off of cliffs when the Giants didn't draft QB at 2 -- and each of them probably would have set the franchise back if they were picked.
You don't pick for upside in the top ten of the draft -- you pick the best value. If experts are all contradicting themselves about the value of the top four Olinemen - just like they did with the 2018 class of QBs - wouldn't you want to run the other way.
If you pick an Erik Flowers, or a Justin Pugh in the first round again -- aren't you setting the Giants backwards?
Becton and Wills show a lot on tape already not just untapped potential . Jeremiah and a bunch of others agree.
Almost nobody is a can't miss.
LT Solder: Played worse than he did with his last team/coach
LG Hernandez: May no progress from year 1 to year 2
C Halapio: No progress as year went
RG Zeitler: Played worse than he did with last team/coach
RT Remmers: Is what he was coming in, a average to below average journeyman
Reserve Players
T/G Gates: The one guy who seemed to really improve
T Smith: Was admittedly unprepared in the game action he saw
C Pulley: Looked worse than last year
So what we see is 2 veteran players with proven track records taking steps back when the came to NY. Our most promising young player on the line not progressing from year 1 to 2. Both our centers taking steps back and only 1 of 8 players to play a notable number of snaps (Gates) improved at all.
Couple these points with the fact that Hal Hunter arguably has the worst resume of an oline coach in the NFL, yes coaching was a problem with our line. Do we need to upgrade a position or 2? Yes. Should they have been as bad as they were last year? No.
Better coaching will equal a better line.
We don't have a Center or a Right Tackle, and our Left Tackle has played poorly for the past two years for a variety of reasons.
We also have a bunch of scrubs, UDFA's, late-round picks that a lot of people are hoping can become serviceable players.
Yes, better coaching can only help, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent in place to benefit from it.
Scheme? Might contribute, but in some games they were each worse than just bad. I watched Remmers get beat like a drum by rushers in too many games.
Halapio is a backup.
Remmers just stinks.
Coaching isn’t going to change any of that.
We don't have a Center or a Right Tackle, and our Left Tackle has played poorly for the past two years for a variety of reasons.
We also have a bunch of scrubs, UDFA's, late-round picks that a lot of people are hoping can become serviceable players.
Yes, better coaching can only help, but good coaching - even great coaching - can only take you so far if you don't have the talent in place to benefit from it.
Even more reason to greatly upgrade the most important spot on the line: Left Tackle.
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Because the coaching did suck. Odds are we need more talent. And regardless of coaching or the current players on the team we need to always be looking to make it better. With that said, I am excited to see a well coached group. Mixed assignments, bad techniques, no communication, etc. is very frustrating.
Zeitler has been good for too long and is still Young. Hernendez is a high pick who has shown enough flashes to believe he is still OK. Gates very small sample size but graded out as our top OL. The rest shouldn't be in our long term plans.
Like you, I’m not worried about Zeitler, Hernandez, and Gates. I’m pretty sure Remmers is gone so that leaves Solder remaining. I know he was not that bad on Patriots so I’m willing to say maybe the coaching plus his child concerns overwhelmed him this year. Plus, I believe he had an injury. I believe he will be a good enough RT to LT wherever he plays.
I do believe we draft a tackle in either round one or two and I expect him to start. And yes, I believe we will all see a huge difference in the coaching that will translate into better play.
There’s no spin that can change this.
So even if Solder/Hernandez/Zeitler can play better with better coaching, they still need to upgrade 2/5 of the OL.
Personally I think Hernandez and Zeitler are good players. Solder has been terrible but it’s probably worth riding it out one more year with him while his eventual replacement through the draft develops (hopefully). There is some merit to the idea Solder may be able to play better. He was an above average LT in NE. He’s not old. He’s had some injury issues and personal issues. Improving the Center position may allow him to play his game.
To my highly unqualified eyes, it looked like there was poor preparation and attention to detail. If I am correct, a better coaching staff might get them to perform better.
The Pugh pick was emblematic of a team that all but ignored the obvious deterioration of its offensive line for the two years prior to the 2013 draft.
A team that waited until the very end of the 4th round in 2012 to draft an O-Lineman (Brandon Mosley, #131, then 6th rounder Matt McCants, #201), and tried to coach up guys like James Brewer and Selvish Capers.
A team that was in such lousy financial straits that they couldn't do anything about their O-Line in 2013 before the draft, then panicked when there was a run on OT's, and spent their 1st round pick (#21) on a guy who turned out to be a very average LG.
Many of them starting too.... Guys who were useless here such as Bobby Hart and Flowers left and became at least useful elsewhere. Is Newhouse still playing? He suddenly became serviceable again when he got away from our coaching....
Yes - getting talent for the OL is good. But we don't have a single star player on the defensive side of the ball. I think we better spend the bulk of this season's resources to remedy that first.