once you draft him, you lose a lot of leverage. If you trade Herbert or Jones, teams know you can't keep both. The leverage you have is prior to making the pick, as teams are worried you will trade the pick to other teams, or the QB they want will go in subsequent picks before theirs.
in that case both teams needed a QB. the Giants dont need one at this point so you would have to be 100% sure that one of the other teams does. I think thats a bad way to run your draft. You take the guy that helps your team, not the guy just to turn it into leverage. what if we get stuck with 2 1st round QBs? How does that help this team win?
I saw you comment in the other thread about Herbert that you'd go with him over Jones. Just curious why you'd go that route given the promise that Jones showed in his first year?
I admittedly don't know a whole lot about Herbert, but right now he's still unproven when it comes to playing in the NFL.
You don't HAVE to do anything. The Giants can play the ruse of, "we're going to have a QB competition and we feel comfortable with both guys."
And because you have a new coach, there's always the possibility that the new coach wants his own QB.
But you don't lose leverage, you gain it during the draft. A team like Miami could feel that the Giants will let their guy fall into their lap because they don't have the balls to use the pick on the QB, and therefore withhold offers. When you show you DO have the balls, you might even have a new bidder.
In other words, if a team likes a QB on the board, until he's drafted there's always a chance he'll slide to their spot, where they don't need to trade anything to get their guy.
Until he's drafted, removing that chance, making the trade the only option. That is called gaining leverage.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
In such a scenario, you had better be ready to keep the player. Â
Herbert is a good one, so it wouldn't be such a bad thing to keep him. If you trade him, you better know who your partner is though otherwise it'll be a Steve Walsh-Troy Aikman type scenario for a year.
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
Another Cardinals like situation where teams know you aren't keeping two QBs, meaning you won't get close to full value back on Jones. Too many other critical needs on this team.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
I know, just speaking on it in a vacuum.
Not sure what special traits people see in Herbert Â
yes we should draft a player at a position we dont needin the HOPES of trying to acquire more picks.. and if you dont get anything.. or the value you want.. your stuck with a player that you dont need or want and EVERYONE knows it..
so you basically immediately REDUCE the value that people are willing to offer for that player..
Arm talent he can make all the NFL throws, passer and runner instincts to be multiple, accuracy (which at times breaks down, he needs to improve consistency) he can hit the tiny windows, excellent mechanics and footwork, he's got the full pedigree.
he's a smart kid. This is priority number 1 that his coaches will have to work on. The NFL game is obviously a lot faster than the college game. I'd give him another couple years to fix that problem, and am hopeful we should see improvement this year. IMO, his upside just from his first year in the league, has already demonstrated to be immense. The fumbling issue, if not fixed, will preclude him from being a championship QB. I agree with that.
Your leverage is the other teams that want him. The market is dictated by supply and demand. You have decreased supply when you have drafted him (for the other teams). If the demand is multiple buyers, then the price naturally higher.
Another Cardinals like situation where teams know you aren't keeping two QBs, meaning you won't get close to full value back on Jones. Too many other critical needs on this team.
Not saying this is the case, but if the new regime has concerns about Jones and like another QB better, who cares about leverage or sunk costs.
That said, I find this scenario highly highly unlikely in reality.
agreed it is unlikely. The GM who drafted Jones is still here as well. He hired Judge who believes in teaching. If his staff can't teach Jones (who is intelligent, and there has been nothing to show he is not teachable) to limit the fumbling, that would be an indictment on the coaching staff in a sense as well.
I'm not sure Herbert is worth the risk. He still needs to have a great combine and pro day to get his stock where it needs to be to make such an aggressive move.
If Tua has worked out for teams and will be ready relatively early in the 2020 season (if not before), I would have zero qualms in taking Tua and let the bidding begin.
And for all the Rosen talk, teams didn't really want him to begin with.
Did the Chargers misstep by drafting Eli knowing the Giants coveted him? No. They got what was considered at the time, a big haul. Yes Ernie was playing chicken with A.J. Smith and Smith removed any possibility that Eli could drop to them.
Ernie got the last laugh but that was a smart move by Smith at the time.
And say that the accuracy Jones displayed in his pro day won’t be matched by any qb in this class not named Burrow. Jones has his warts but his ability to look off safeties and convert on third downs is something I haven’t seen from Herbert at all, and it’s a subtle quality that a lot of the greats have mastered.
Jones is a different style than Herbert, I think we would have to run more of an Air RAID or Roethlisberger type system to utilize Herbert well. I’m good with Jones when it comes to the style of offense I’ve seen from Garrett
JonC : 10:46 am : link : reply
and I wouldn't risk it, just commenting on the QB position in vacuum.
Agreed on not risking it. But going back to the comment on Herbert making the tight throws, I would argue that Jones did this a lot last year. I believe the Giants WR's had the least amount of separation if I recall? I know Jones fit throws into a lot of tight spaces though.
if this happens and we move on from Jones I will have to seriously question my fandom and whether or not it is worth continuing to give this team any more of my time or money. catastrophic move imo, especially with DG still employed.
JonC : 10:46 am : link : reply
and I wouldn't risk it, just commenting on the QB position in vacuum.
Agreed on not risking it. But going back to the comment on Herbert making the tight throws, I would argue that Jones did this a lot last year. I believe the Giants WR's had the least amount of separation if I recall? I know Jones fit throws into a lot of tight spaces though.
He did make a number of the throws, and also missed a ton. He doesn't have remotely the arm talent of Herbert, though.
There is a lot there to like physically. Some of the throws he can make on the move are elite. Plus-plus territory.
Won the Heisman for Academics for student-athletes - the Campbell Award. So he's a very bright guy.
But there is a lot of improvement needed from the shoulders up. The good news is he bounced back from a poor junior year with a very good senior year. He wanted to run less (he's a great athlete) and focus on being passer. Which he did. So there were some good signs that he's got a willingness to get better...
way we draft Herbert or trade Jones. Nor should we. Jones has already shown more than enough to be successful. Herbert is an unknown. We'll either use the pick on someone else, or trade down.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
This isn't the same as the Rosen situation. Jones looked far better than Rosen did as a rookie.
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
If they really did not want Jones, then you trade him before the draft, if the Lions loved him and was willing to give us thier 1st and 4th round picks for Jones which would be my absolute minimum I would accept for Jones, then it is at least not mismanaged, you now have the 3rd and 4th picks in the draft and an extra 4th rounder.
RE: Not sure what special traits people see in Herbert Â
it demonstrates he has some issues to fix with regards to pocket awareness, rush clock, and protecting the football. They are fixable skills, but not for every player, and they cannot be glossed over as Jones being Jones.
So, what else do I need to see from Jones? Fix these red flags sooner than later.
I agree there are some red flags re: Jones
Some plays he looks awesome and some u just shake your head and think WTF. But I have to say when he flashed he flashed nicely.
I see the pocket awareness issues u have stated but we aren’t talking about finished product here. let season 1 sink in and let’s see what dj
Improves on from yr 1 to 2. Think we have to see what the progression is from yr 1-2 first and then see if it continues thru yr 3.
He does make some real sweet throws at times and definitely you can see he is a gamer and competitive
Definitely don’t see us swapping out Herbert for him, even if we are just playing GM for the day.
Fumbling I expect to be cleaned up. Half the fumbles in 2020 is my metric. Probably could live with that over the course of 16 games.
RE: I don't understand what else people needed to Â
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
But that won't be the case. The team is committed to Jones.
How I see Jones is, he's a guy I feel you can win with, but can he ban an upper tier guy who's a difference maker on the field? That I'm not really sure of.
it demonstrates he has some issues to fix with regards to pocket awareness, rush clock, and protecting the football. They are fixable skills, but not for every player, and they cannot be glossed over as Jones being Jones.
So, what else do I need to see from Jones? Fix these red flags sooner than later.
From Dawg's thread yesterday:
Quote:
Alex Marvez (@alexmarvez)
1/23/20, 9:30 PM
DukeFOOTBALL HC David Cutcliffe told me on SiriusXMNFL that he already has planned some offseason workouts with one of his proteges -- QB Daniel Jones. Plan is to work on "fundamentals" that may include drills related to better ball-protection in the pocket
He also played in a system at Oregon that didn't really play to his strengths or allow him to cut it loose.
They've had a very strong OL (have 2-3 pros right now) and running game these last two years. So I give Cristobal credit for his willingness to run the ball and play to that strength. And not feel this need to showcase Herbert.
I think Herbert's stats, btw, this year could have been gaudier if Breeland didn't get hut. He's a terrific pro prospect TE and created a lot of mismatches.
But I hear you. You wonder what Herbert would like if he played farther north in Pullman for Mike Leach... ;)
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
RE: I don't understand what else people needed to Â
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
This is getting a little off topic but Jones problems are more than fumbling (which is huge). He holds the ball too long because he moves through his progression slowly. He has a good not elite arm. He moves well but again not at an elite level.
The Giants have to decide if he showed enough to hand them the future. Herbert has a much higher up side.
If they absolutely love Herbert and don't think Jones is the answer then roll the dice but I am a Jones fan. Other teams would be trying to get a QB from the Giants at a discount. The media would love the instant QB controversy with that pick.
As others have said you lose leverage, JonC and Klaatu with all due respect what are you smoking. After one year you want to dump the Kid?
Every Rookie QB has issues the first year and his are fixable with work, and with experience he will get better reading coverage. Both Aikman and Simms have said it takes 3 years to get really comfortable at the position.
I guess he needed to throw for 4200 yards 36 TDs and have a rating of 105 to make the grade.
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
Exactly. But it certainly wasn't clear that Shurmur pushed for the Giants to use the #6 pick on him. Gettleman made that pick, and it driven by some panic in that he was convinced that other teams wanted Jones before the Giants pick at #17.
I actually think Shurmur deserves a lot of credit for having Jones play right away. And kudos for that work.
But I'm with JonC here; and have stated it the last several months - Jones may be one of these "serial turnover QBs" that will always have that issue. If so, the pick is certainly in question. Hopefully it's correctable...
It would certainly suck up front - but if the new coaching staff Â
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
I've already clarified I'm not drafting Herbert and trading Jones, but it's less about belief in Jones and more about the loss in value of the sunk draft cost in him. I should've more clear in my first post at the top, keep your panties on.
Jones did plenty of really good things, things to build on and be excited about. But, his red flags right now are glaring and tend to be things that are not so easily fixed. Let's hope DJ and Cutcliffe get it done. He has arm limitations as well. Velocity is not as pronounced an issue as some would prefer to believe, but there throws he cannot make.
I was impressed with Jones this year and think he has a bright future Â
But if I am Dave Gettleman / John Mara and Judge and his staff tell me they want to spend the 4th pick on Herbert and then shop Jones, I ok it. You brought this guy in to build a winning team. If I trust him to do that, I trust him when he tells me he wants another QB to do it.
Nobody on this roster should be handed a spot. Nobody. Not Jones, not Saquon...nobody. That doesn't mean you get rid of all of them, but every position on the team should be an open competition.
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
Gettleman said he saw Jones at the Senior Bowl and fell in "full bloom love". After firing Shurmur, he said Shurmur had a role in us picking Jones. Either way, the full bloom love comment indicates that he was on board with the pick.
Nonetheless, I am not about to take anything Gettleman says at face value. He was awful and seemingly unprepared for simple questions in his interviews after Shurmur's dismissal. He quite literally said we didn't sign Odell to trade him - a mantra he repeated until he traded him to the Browns. Gettleman hasn't exactly been completely up front with any of his comments (to say it nicely), and I highly doubt he would allow Shurmur to "back him into the low post" and select Jones if he was opposed to the pick.
In any event, we selected Saquon to give Eli one more shot at this whole thing. Maybe that was a Mara directive, though DG's "touched by the Hand of God" comment indicate he was all in on Saquon to begin with.
Now, in 12 games, without many - or in some cases all - of his weapons - Jones throws for 24 TDs and 12 INTs. Cutcliffe has already said he will be working with Jones on ball protection issues this offseason. I have had friends and family who are Eagles' fans tell me they thing Jones is the real deal.
Yet here we are, debating whether we should select another QB rather than improving our D or surrounding our hopefully franchise QB with another weapon (be it WR or OL). I could see the argument if Jones's rookie deal were about to expire, but that is not the case. At the very least, Jones has earned another year or two to show that he is or isn't the guy we hoped he could/would be. This isn't Rosen, who threw more INTs than TDs.
Jones was a rookie who has started 12 games. If you want to argue pocket presence is something that is there and not developed, fine. I disagree. I also don't believe he was as lacking in that area as many of you would have the rest of this board believe.
The guy is not Patrick Mahomes or Tom Brady, in all likelihood. But to suggest replacing him at this point because he fumbled the ball a lot is nonsensical.
every rock when it comes to the draft, but there comes a point in time where it just gets silly, and the QB talk is becoming a bit ridiculous at this point.
Our rookie QB set records behind a below average OL and bad overall team. Dude is an absolute gamer with a really bright future. And yet...we still aren't satisfied with the pick. Of course he has some issues, every rookie QB does, and every QB makes mistakes.
Does he have the strongest arm in the world? No, he doesn't. Arm talent is one of about 10 traits that combine to make a great QB. And quite honestly, his arm is perfectly fine. Just because it's not a Mahomes or Rodgers arm doesn't mean this guy can't win Super Bowls for us. In fact, I'd say some of the traits you can't teach (toughness, leadership, etc) he already has, and he's 22.
Nonetheless, I am not about to take anything Gettleman says at face value. He was awful and seemingly unprepared for simple questions in his interviews after Shurmur's dismissal. He quite literally said we didn't sign Odell to trade him - a mantra he repeated until he traded him to the Browns. Gettleman hasn't exactly been completely up front with any of his comments (to say it nicely), and I highly doubt he would allow Shurmur to "back him into the low post" and select Jones if he was opposed to the pick.
RE: It would certainly suck up front - but if the new coaching staff Â
feels strongly that one of the QBs in reach is their guy, and markedly better than Jones, then you take the hit and move on.
That is if you're committed to these coaches for the next 3 years.
That makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
I've already clarified I'm not drafting Herbert and trading Jones, but it's less about belief in Jones and more about the loss in value of the sunk draft cost in him. I should've more clear in my first post at the top, keep your panties on.
Jones did plenty of really good things, things to build on and be excited about. But, his red flags right now are glaring and tend to be things that are not so easily fixed. Let's hope DJ and Cutcliffe get it done. He has arm limitations as well. Velocity is not as pronounced an issue as some would prefer to believe, but there throws he cannot make.
You and I simply see things differently. Every rookie QB is going to have red flags to fix. His is fumbling, in particular.
As for the throws he can't make, no he cannot "Mahomes" a ball. I don't think you'll see Jones rolling to his left and launching the ball on a rope 60 yards downfield. But you don't need to do that to succeed in the NFL. Mahomes is one of the few QBs really ever to be able to do that.
When he entered the league, there were throws that Brady could not make. People are dying for Burrow, yet he was in an offense that outschemed and outmatched everyone, and he can't make all the throws. Peyton Manning never had the strongest of arms. Scouts were 50/50 on Manning/Leaf in that draft because of Leaf's gargantuan arm strength.
If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
Not to go off an a tangent here, but why do you say that about Tua? I think he's got a better arm than Jones.
Nonetheless, I am not about to take anything Gettleman says at face value. He was awful and seemingly unprepared for simple questions in his interviews after Shurmur's dismissal. He quite literally said we didn't sign Odell to trade him - a mantra he repeated until he traded him to the Browns. Gettleman hasn't exactly been completely up front with any of his comments (to say it nicely), and I highly doubt he would allow Shurmur to "back him into the low post" and select Jones if he was opposed to the pick.
So, if I am the Energizer Bunny, what does that make you? You are right there after every single one of my posts. Sorry, but I am not going to salivate over what DG has done so far, because most of it has been absolute garbage. You don't like it? Say something meaningful. That doesn't mean hurling insults. Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward. It's not FA evaluations. His drafts are ok so far, but nowhere near enough time has elapsed to show me that he did his job. For that to happen, Jones must improve, Baker must improve, Hernandez must improve, etc.
Basically, there are about .5 check marks (out of 10) on DG's chart right now.
If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
Not to go off an a tangent here, but why do you say that about Tua? I think he's got a better arm than Jones.
Maybe it's a left thing... ;)
No way. Tua's arm is very limited, in my eyes. I'm not telling you Jones has a Howitzer, but that is probably the #1 physical knock on Tua, lefty or righty.
Tua is known for his accuracy. But in the biggest games of his career - particularly those in 2018-19 - he was not good. LSU, Georgia, and then Clemson. In fact, Alabama overcame Georgia when Tua got hurt and Hurts replaced him in that game. He also happened to be playing those games with an awesome OL, Josh Jacobs (this year it was Nigel Harris), Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Devonta Smith. Next to LSU's crop of skill position players, that is flat out disgusting. Tua is far from a sure thing at the next level.
it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
Quote:
Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
No way. Tua's arm is very limited, in my eyes. I'm not telling you Jones has a Howitzer, but that is probably the #1 physical knock on Tua, lefty or righty.
Tua is known for his accuracy. But in the biggest games of his career - particularly those in 2018-19 - he was not good. LSU, Georgia, and then Clemson. In fact, Alabama overcame Georgia when Tua got hurt and Hurts replaced him in that game. He also happened to be playing those games with an awesome OL, Josh Jacobs (this year it was Nigel Harris), Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Devonta Smith. Next to LSU's crop of skill position players, that is flat out disgusting. Tua is far from a sure thing at the next level.
Whether he was good in those games or not, that doesn't mean he has a poor arm. He can spin it. Obviously not in Mahomes class, but it's not nearly as problematic as you cite. But we'll see...
Aside from the fumble early in this year's game against LSU, which was huge, he threw the ball great in that game.
He didn't play well against Clemson last year - true. But the Bama OL got dominated by a great Clemson OL and the Bama D was ever worse. That was a total team meltdown.
Ha, and I doubt it happens, but this is exactly what some of talked about when DJ was drafted while feeling like Shurmur and his staff were really overmatched out there, and could be out on their arse after last season.
So, hypothetically, do you think the Jets should draft Herbert and look to trade Darnold should he be available when they pick ( assume he is available)?
it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
Quote:
Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
The chances of the NYG trading Jones and selecting Herbert are about the same as me spraying my DNA all over Selma Hayek‘s chest. And, for those keeping score, that’s 0%.
RE: Especially when most of the fumbles came from Â
But... After the Eli/Rivers scenario, didn't the NFL change the rules about trading draft pick after the selection has been made. I thought you now had to keep the player for a full season before they are eligible to be traded.
I know I saw something like this, maybe is was just bandied about and never implemented.
RE: RE: Especially when most of the fumbles came from Â
it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
Quote:
Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
Well, you went a bit further than questioning DG's moves, you questioned whether he deserves to be a GM altogether.
Don't get me wrong...FMiC is a chucklehead but my guess is he jumped on you because you went a "bridge too far" with that type of comment.
Question anything you want, its all fair game at this point with the state of the franchise. But remember the Defenders of the Faith are sitting out there waiting to pounce like tigger...
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
I was a bit more tactful with the same type of message.
Now I am second-guessing why I was tactful... :-)
Discussions that circle back to criticizing DG have really gotten old. Â
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
This is a very good point and 100% true. i was one of those people
RE: Discussions that circle back to criticizing DG have really gotten old. Â
Maybe if you guys really had valid pro football credentials they would mean something .... but frustrated fan speak, even from super fans not so much.
It doesn't take "valid pro football credentials" to question a 9-23 record over two years. I mean I personally was in favor of keeping DG on for another year and firing Shurmur, so don't get me wrong, but the great thing about sports is the W/L record is non-subjective, and as Parcells said "you are what your record says you are." It doesn't take an expert to know the Giants suck right now, and DG has been the GM for two full years, so I can understand people looking for possible points for criticism.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm one that is optimistic that DG can be part of the solution, and I'm hopeful he and Judge can right the ship together. But I disagree with the idea that people can't question him solely because they don't have NFL credentials.
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
Correct, and now that Jones is a Giant and has flashed some promise, picking him was suddenly a no-brainer beyond reproach. Typical BBI.
my biggest knock on him is that he doesn't see the field well and locks into his first or second read. I'll admit, I only watched him a handful of times the past 2 years (3-5 tops) but it was enough to feel good about the opinion.
As JonC pointed out, the system could be holding him back, but he's a very smart guy so I'm sure he'll adjust. It just seems like the one read QB's tend to have a higher bust rate than QB's who are taught early how to scan the field.
NFW do you draft Herbert to trade him unless, like Eli, you have a deal with another team. The minute he is drafted his value and that of Jones drop like a stone. You trade the pick and move on.
1925 I have seen you post a few times that Jones is slow to make his reads and that is why he gets hit. Not for nothing but I have never seen that said anywhere by anyone. Does he wait too long to throw the ball, maybe yes, but he is likely waiting for someone to get open and I doubt it is because he cannot make proper reads quickly as you insinuate.
Isn't the speed of Jones' reads considerably dependent on his Â
familiarity with the offensive system? Even if we identified this shortcoming in 2019, does it really have that much predictive value for the future.
Btw, Herbert's decision to go back to school in 2019 and then playing better in the season is a testament to the young man's character. It's a gutsy move to go against the scouting consensus, take the challenge and succeed. That speaks well of him.
RE: Isn't the speed of Jones' reads considerably dependent on his Â
Btw, Herbert's decision to go back to school in 2019 and then playing better in the season is a testament to the young man's character. It's a gutsy move to go against the scouting consensus, take the challenge and succeed. That speaks well of him.
There were multiple reasons he went back. He wanted to experience one year playing with his brother, who was an incoming freshman TE. And he just really liked their team and the college experience. They had a great recruiting class (led by Thibodeaux), and a lot of talent to win the PAC12 and possibly get a spot in the FBS.
If this opinion is based on talent, I’d have to vehemently disagree. I watched a good amount of Herbert this year and the guy has bust written all over him imv. Sure he’s a good athlete with good arm talent, but his decision making isn’t good and he has accuracy issues. The NFL graves are littered with guys just like Herbert who couldn’t develop or be coached into good NFL QBs.
I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, nice to finally see someone not dance around these big issues, the biggest among them being his atrocious ball security. My Dallas fan friends have nicknamed Jones "Loose Change" as a result of his chronic fumbling.
but if we trade with Jacksonville (who might give their 9 and 20) and they want Herbert, it could be an agreement: We'll trade you Herbert and if Player x is available at 9 we get 20, but if he's not available, it becomes a first rounder in 2021, for example.
As others have said you lose leverage, JonC and Klaatu with all due respect what are you smoking. After one year you want to dump the Kid?
Every Rookie QB has issues the first year and his are fixable with work, and with experience he will get better reading coverage. Both Aikman and Simms have said it takes 3 years to get really comfortable at the position.
I guess he needed to throw for 4200 yards 36 TDs and have a rating of 105 to make the grade.
Okay, I missed this yesterday but it does call for a reply...even a late one.
What have I ever posted that makes you think I want to dump Jones after one year?
Isn't it clear from the picture of Donald Sutherland that I posted that I was "horrified" by JonC's post, at the mere suggestion that he would draft Herbert and trade Jones?
Isn't it also clear that when JonC brought up Jones' ball security issues - which are a valid concern - I re-posted a tweet lifted from Defenderdawg's thread regarding David Cutcliffe working with Jones this Spring to correct those issues.
So, how the hell could anyone conclude that I was in favor of dumping Jones?
My question to anyone who could would be what the hell are YOU smoking?
Trade the pick because everyone can use the pick as they see best.
it is weird Joe Judge wouldnt say Jones name at all. Even after being on the job for awhile.
Personally, I like Jones a lot, but jury's still out obviously.
I admittedly don't know a whole lot about Herbert, but right now he's still unproven when it comes to playing in the NFL.
JonC, are you that high on Herbert's upside? Or do you think Jones fumbling issues are chronic problem to deal with going forward?
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and trade Jones.
it is weird Joe Judge wouldnt say Jones name at all. Even after being on the job for awhile.
Has he named/called out ANY player thus far? This is a stretch.
And because you have a new coach, there's always the possibility that the new coach wants his own QB.
But you don't lose leverage, you gain it during the draft. A team like Miami could feel that the Giants will let their guy fall into their lap because they don't have the balls to use the pick on the QB, and therefore withhold offers. When you show you DO have the balls, you might even have a new bidder.
In other words, if a team likes a QB on the board, until he's drafted there's always a chance he'll slide to their spot, where they don't need to trade anything to get their guy.
Until he's drafted, removing that chance, making the trade the only option. That is called gaining leverage.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
Another Cardinals like situation where teams know you aren't keeping two QBs, meaning you won't get close to full value back on Jones. Too many other critical needs on this team.
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and trade Jones.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
I know, just speaking on it in a vacuum.
so you basically immediately REDUCE the value that people are willing to offer for that player..
Your leverage is the other teams that want him. The market is dictated by supply and demand. You have decreased supply when you have drafted him (for the other teams). If the demand is multiple buyers, then the price naturally higher.
Basic econ.
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and trade Jones.
Another Cardinals like situation where teams know you aren't keeping two QBs, meaning you won't get close to full value back on Jones. Too many other critical needs on this team.
Not saying this is the case, but if the new regime has concerns about Jones and like another QB better, who cares about leverage or sunk costs.
That said, I find this scenario highly highly unlikely in reality.
Let someone else try.
If Tua has worked out for teams and will be ready relatively early in the 2020 season (if not before), I would have zero qualms in taking Tua and let the bidding begin.
And for all the Rosen talk, teams didn't really want him to begin with.
Did the Chargers misstep by drafting Eli knowing the Giants coveted him? No. They got what was considered at the time, a big haul. Yes Ernie was playing chicken with A.J. Smith and Smith removed any possibility that Eli could drop to them.
Ernie got the last laugh but that was a smart move by Smith at the time.
Jones is a different style than Herbert, I think we would have to run more of an Air RAID or Roethlisberger type system to utilize Herbert well. I’m good with Jones when it comes to the style of offense I’ve seen from Garrett
and I wouldn't risk it, just commenting on the QB position in vacuum.
Agreed on not risking it. But going back to the comment on Herbert making the tight throws, I would argue that Jones did this a lot last year. I believe the Giants WR's had the least amount of separation if I recall? I know Jones fit throws into a lot of tight spaces though.
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JonC : 10:46 am : link : reply
and I wouldn't risk it, just commenting on the QB position in vacuum.
Agreed on not risking it. But going back to the comment on Herbert making the tight throws, I would argue that Jones did this a lot last year. I believe the Giants WR's had the least amount of separation if I recall? I know Jones fit throws into a lot of tight spaces though.
He did make a number of the throws, and also missed a ton. He doesn't have remotely the arm talent of Herbert, though.
There is a lot there to like physically. Some of the throws he can make on the move are elite. Plus-plus territory.
Won the Heisman for Academics for student-athletes - the Campbell Award. So he's a very bright guy.
But there is a lot of improvement needed from the shoulders up. The good news is he bounced back from a poor junior year with a very good senior year. He wanted to run less (he's a great athlete) and focus on being passer. Which he did. So there were some good signs that he's got a willingness to get better...
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and trade Jones.
Blasphemy
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and trade Jones.
Talk about a loss of leverage if doing this. All we have to do is look at the Rosen situation from last year. Trading Jones would be a terrible mismangement of draft position
This isn't the same as the Rosen situation. Jones looked far better than Rosen did as a rookie.
ppl just liking being contrarian.
If you don't trade him for a top 10 pick, you've lost significant value.
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
This is where I fall on Herbert.
I'd be much more concerned if he was running around the field fumbling as soon as he's touched.
But once again here we are blaming the QB for getting hit from his blindside when he's not finished with his 5 step drop yet..
Almost like we've been through this before.
So, what else do I need to see from Jones? Fix these red flags sooner than later.
Some plays he looks awesome and some u just shake your head and think WTF. But I have to say when he flashed he flashed nicely.
I see the pocket awareness issues u have stated but we aren’t talking about finished product here. let season 1 sink in and let’s see what dj
Improves on from yr 1 to 2. Think we have to see what the progression is from yr 1-2 first and then see if it continues thru yr 3.
He does make some real sweet throws at times and definitely you can see he is a gamer and competitive
Definitely don’t see us swapping out Herbert for him, even if we are just playing GM for the day.
Fumbling I expect to be cleaned up. Half the fumbles in 2020 is my metric. Probably could live with that over the course of 16 games.
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
^This.
How I see Jones is, he's a guy I feel you can win with, but can he ban an upper tier guy who's a difference maker on the field? That I'm not really sure of.
So, what else do I need to see from Jones? Fix these red flags sooner than later.
From Dawg's thread yesterday:
1/23/20, 9:30 PM
DukeFOOTBALL HC David Cutcliffe told me on SiriusXMNFL that he already has planned some offseason workouts with one of his proteges -- QB Daniel Jones. Plan is to work on "fundamentals" that may include drills related to better ball-protection in the pocket
They've had a very strong OL (have 2-3 pros right now) and running game these last two years. So I give Cristobal credit for his willingness to run the ball and play to that strength. And not feel this need to showcase Herbert.
I think Herbert's stats, btw, this year could have been gaudier if Breeland didn't get hut. He's a terrific pro prospect TE and created a lot of mismatches.
But I hear you. You wonder what Herbert would like if he played farther north in Pullman for Mike Leach... ;)
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
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I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
You could clearly see from snap #1 the poise that he has in the pocket, something that some QB's take years developing. The arm worries are gone, he can make every throw on the field. He makes plays with his feet and is a church mouse off the field
Do some of you really think the fumbling issue is that big of a deal? We see this all the time with young players...
I don't get what else people need to see from a rookie QB playing on an awful team that had a hobbled Saquon all year
This is getting a little off topic but Jones problems are more than fumbling (which is huge). He holds the ball too long because he moves through his progression slowly. He has a good not elite arm. He moves well but again not at an elite level.
The Giants have to decide if he showed enough to hand them the future. Herbert has a much higher up side.
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I think he will learn to hold onto the ball better. Regarding the idea of this thread. Makes no sense.
ppl just liking being contrarian.
Hardly. Clown.
Every Rookie QB has issues the first year and his are fixable with work, and with experience he will get better reading coverage. Both Aikman and Simms have said it takes 3 years to get really comfortable at the position.
I guess he needed to throw for 4200 yards 36 TDs and have a rating of 105 to make the grade.
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
Exactly. But it certainly wasn't clear that Shurmur pushed for the Giants to use the #6 pick on him. Gettleman made that pick, and it driven by some panic in that he was convinced that other teams wanted Jones before the Giants pick at #17.
I actually think Shurmur deserves a lot of credit for having Jones play right away. And kudos for that work.
But I'm with JonC here; and have stated it the last several months - Jones may be one of these "serial turnover QBs" that will always have that issue. If so, the pick is certainly in question. Hopefully it's correctable...
That is if you're committed to these coaches for the next 3 years.
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I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
Check out DG's comments about PS was let go...
Jones did plenty of really good things, things to build on and be excited about. But, his red flags right now are glaring and tend to be things that are not so easily fixed. Let's hope DJ and Cutcliffe get it done. He has arm limitations as well. Velocity is not as pronounced an issue as some would prefer to believe, but there throws he cannot make.
Nobody on this roster should be handed a spot. Nobody. Not Jones, not Saquon...nobody. That doesn't mean you get rid of all of them, but every position on the team should be an open competition.
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In comment 14795192 JonC said:
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I like Jones, and hope I'm wrong, but I'm not so sure he's the QB to lead us to championships. His current red flags need a ton of work, and some of it looks like passer instincts he doesn't have. I think DG/Shurmur/NYG overreacted (again) and reached for him based on the Cutcliffe/Eli factor rather than his actual NFL upside. Shurmur was apparently the catalyst for the pick, and he was already feeling job pressure. After the Jones pick I even said I expected Shurmur to be gone in 2019, and then what? Here we are now.
JonC, this is the first I've heard that Shurmur was the catalyst for the pick. Am I crazy, or wasn't Gettleman the one who fell in love?
Per Gettleman's interview with Joe and Evan a few weeks ago, Shurmur was the one that told Gettleman to look into Jones more.
Gettleman said he saw Jones at the Senior Bowl and fell in "full bloom love". After firing Shurmur, he said Shurmur had a role in us picking Jones. Either way, the full bloom love comment indicates that he was on board with the pick.
Nonetheless, I am not about to take anything Gettleman says at face value. He was awful and seemingly unprepared for simple questions in his interviews after Shurmur's dismissal. He quite literally said we didn't sign Odell to trade him - a mantra he repeated until he traded him to the Browns. Gettleman hasn't exactly been completely up front with any of his comments (to say it nicely), and I highly doubt he would allow Shurmur to "back him into the low post" and select Jones if he was opposed to the pick.
In any event, we selected Saquon to give Eli one more shot at this whole thing. Maybe that was a Mara directive, though DG's "touched by the Hand of God" comment indicate he was all in on Saquon to begin with.
Now, in 12 games, without many - or in some cases all - of his weapons - Jones throws for 24 TDs and 12 INTs. Cutcliffe has already said he will be working with Jones on ball protection issues this offseason. I have had friends and family who are Eagles' fans tell me they thing Jones is the real deal.
Yet here we are, debating whether we should select another QB rather than improving our D or surrounding our hopefully franchise QB with another weapon (be it WR or OL). I could see the argument if Jones's rookie deal were about to expire, but that is not the case. At the very least, Jones has earned another year or two to show that he is or isn't the guy we hoped he could/would be. This isn't Rosen, who threw more INTs than TDs.
Jones was a rookie who has started 12 games. If you want to argue pocket presence is something that is there and not developed, fine. I disagree. I also don't believe he was as lacking in that area as many of you would have the rest of this board believe.
The guy is not Patrick Mahomes or Tom Brady, in all likelihood. But to suggest replacing him at this point because he fumbled the ball a lot is nonsensical.
Our rookie QB set records behind a below average OL and bad overall team. Dude is an absolute gamer with a really bright future. And yet...we still aren't satisfied with the pick. Of course he has some issues, every rookie QB does, and every QB makes mistakes.
Does he have the strongest arm in the world? No, he doesn't. Arm talent is one of about 10 traits that combine to make a great QB. And quite honestly, his arm is perfectly fine. Just because it's not a Mahomes or Rodgers arm doesn't mean this guy can't win Super Bowls for us. In fact, I'd say some of the traits you can't teach (toughness, leadership, etc) he already has, and he's 22.
That is if you're committed to these coaches for the next 3 years.
That makes the most sense in theory.
But there is too much on the line with Jones and Gettleman's legacy. And I believe Mara is committed to seeing that play out.
They would never show the creativity and progressive thinking to move on from Jones for a potentially better franchise QB solution after one year. Just not their nature...
Jones did plenty of really good things, things to build on and be excited about. But, his red flags right now are glaring and tend to be things that are not so easily fixed. Let's hope DJ and Cutcliffe get it done. He has arm limitations as well. Velocity is not as pronounced an issue as some would prefer to believe, but there throws he cannot make.
You and I simply see things differently. Every rookie QB is going to have red flags to fix. His is fumbling, in particular.
As for the throws he can't make, no he cannot "Mahomes" a ball. I don't think you'll see Jones rolling to his left and launching the ball on a rope 60 yards downfield. But you don't need to do that to succeed in the NFL. Mahomes is one of the few QBs really ever to be able to do that.
When he entered the league, there were throws that Brady could not make. People are dying for Burrow, yet he was in an offense that outschemed and outmatched everyone, and he can't make all the throws. Peyton Manning never had the strongest of arms. Scouts were 50/50 on Manning/Leaf in that draft because of Leaf's gargantuan arm strength.
If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
Not to go off an a tangent here, but why do you say that about Tua? I think he's got a better arm than Jones.
Maybe it's a left thing... ;)
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Nonetheless, I am not about to take anything Gettleman says at face value. He was awful and seemingly unprepared for simple questions in his interviews after Shurmur's dismissal. He quite literally said we didn't sign Odell to trade him - a mantra he repeated until he traded him to the Browns. Gettleman hasn't exactly been completely up front with any of his comments (to say it nicely), and I highly doubt he would allow Shurmur to "back him into the low post" and select Jones if he was opposed to the pick.
So, if I am the Energizer Bunny, what does that make you? You are right there after every single one of my posts. Sorry, but I am not going to salivate over what DG has done so far, because most of it has been absolute garbage. You don't like it? Say something meaningful. That doesn't mean hurling insults. Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward. It's not FA evaluations. His drafts are ok so far, but nowhere near enough time has elapsed to show me that he did his job. For that to happen, Jones must improve, Baker must improve, Hernandez must improve, etc.
Basically, there are about .5 check marks (out of 10) on DG's chart right now.
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If you want arm strength limitations, look at Tua. He is a guaranteed top 5 pick, health permitting, and his arm is as weak as I've seen on a top prospect in quite some time. But some people here are pining for him as well.
Not to go off an a tangent here, but why do you say that about Tua? I think he's got a better arm than Jones.
Maybe it's a left thing... ;)
No way. Tua's arm is very limited, in my eyes. I'm not telling you Jones has a Howitzer, but that is probably the #1 physical knock on Tua, lefty or righty.
Tua is known for his accuracy. But in the biggest games of his career - particularly those in 2018-19 - he was not good. LSU, Georgia, and then Clemson. In fact, Alabama overcame Georgia when Tua got hurt and Hurts replaced him in that game. He also happened to be playing those games with an awesome OL, Josh Jacobs (this year it was Nigel Harris), Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Devonta Smith. Next to LSU's crop of skill position players, that is flat out disgusting. Tua is far from a sure thing at the next level.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
You don't need to throw the ball 80 yards unless showing off pre game or at the Circus.
No way. Tua's arm is very limited, in my eyes. I'm not telling you Jones has a Howitzer, but that is probably the #1 physical knock on Tua, lefty or righty.
Tua is known for his accuracy. But in the biggest games of his career - particularly those in 2018-19 - he was not good. LSU, Georgia, and then Clemson. In fact, Alabama overcame Georgia when Tua got hurt and Hurts replaced him in that game. He also happened to be playing those games with an awesome OL, Josh Jacobs (this year it was Nigel Harris), Jerry Jeudy, Henry Ruggs, and Devonta Smith. Next to LSU's crop of skill position players, that is flat out disgusting. Tua is far from a sure thing at the next level.
Whether he was good in those games or not, that doesn't mean he has a poor arm. He can spin it. Obviously not in Mahomes class, but it's not nearly as problematic as you cite. But we'll see...
Aside from the fumble early in this year's game against LSU, which was huge, he threw the ball great in that game.
He didn't play well against Clemson last year - true. But the Bama OL got dominated by a great Clemson OL and the Bama D was ever worse. That was a total team meltdown.
Mind me asking....Which QB were you all excited over in the 2018 draft?
My short term memory is declining....thanks.
LOL - it takes a braver man than me to wade in these waters.
LOL - it takes a braver man than me to wade in these waters.
As to the OP’s question...no. Shop the pick not the player.
I would not.
So, hypothetically, do you think the Jets should draft Herbert and look to trade Darnold should he be available when they pick ( assume he is available)?
If I'm betting on which will be a better pro I still like my chances with Jones.
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Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
The chances of the NYG trading Jones and selecting Herbert are about the same as me spraying my DNA all over Selma Hayek‘s chest. And, for those keeping score, that’s 0%.
That is completely false.
But... After the Eli/Rivers scenario, didn't the NFL change the rules about trading draft pick after the selection has been made. I thought you now had to keep the player for a full season before they are eligible to be traded.
I know I saw something like this, maybe is was just bandied about and never implemented.
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blindside hits in the pocket.
That is completely false.
Yes, plenty of weakside.
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it. What the fuck does this have to do with anything?
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Show me what Gettleman has done that lets you know he unequivocally deserves to the GM of this franchise moving forward.
What do you and I "showing" anything mean? Gettleman is the GM of this franchise. Calling him a shitbag or railing on every thread about him doesn't change that. And if you think it does - it only leads me to think you're more fucking delusional than your posts indicate.
A better request would be show me where you are qualified to judge the competency of a GM or can ascertain who deserves any position in the NFL. And calling a guy shitbag for kicks doesn't count, Bub.
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
If I do not like something Gettleman does, I have every right to question the moves he has made. Every team - or at least most teams - in the NFL are run by "football people". But that doesn't make their moves unassailable. GMs get it wrong; in fact, they often do. It's why teams will fire coaches and GMs and still pay them the millions they are owed on their deals.
If you would like to engage in an educated discussion with me, I am more than happy to do so. It beats reading you curse every fifth word or tell me I am wrong and he is right because he is the GM, and I am not. That is as self-serving a statement as they come.
Well, you went a bit further than questioning DG's moves, you questioned whether he deserves to be a GM altogether.
Don't get me wrong...FMiC is a chucklehead but my guess is he jumped on you because you went a "bridge too far" with that type of comment.
Question anything you want, its all fair game at this point with the state of the franchise. But remember the Defenders of the Faith are sitting out there waiting to pounce like tigger...
So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
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So because I am not a GM, but Gettleman is, I am simply not permitted to question his moves? Because that is basically the way your post reads.
The resistance movement that springs into action when anyone dare question the actions of Gettleman is one of the more interesting phenomena I've ever seen at BBI.
You would think he was on the Mount Rushmore of GMs they way he is defended. That he shares that side of the mountain with the likes of either Belichick, Dick Haley, Bill Walsh, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Polian, etc.
At best, his career GM record is a C; and so far with the Giants he is either an F or an INC leaning hard to an F.
I was a bit more tactful with the same type of message.
Now I am second-guessing why I was tactful... :-)
No offense, really...
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
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and trade Jones.
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
It doesn't take "valid pro football credentials" to question a 9-23 record over two years. I mean I personally was in favor of keeping DG on for another year and firing Shurmur, so don't get me wrong, but the great thing about sports is the W/L record is non-subjective, and as Parcells said "you are what your record says you are." It doesn't take an expert to know the Giants suck right now, and DG has been the GM for two full years, so I can understand people looking for possible points for criticism.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm one that is optimistic that DG can be part of the solution, and I'm hopeful he and Judge can right the ship together. But I disagree with the idea that people can't question him solely because they don't have NFL credentials.
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and trade Jones.
A lot of people questioning this take, but let's not forget that on BBI we were all ready to target Herbert as our #1 QB prospect IF he had declared for the 2019 draft. We all said he was stupid for going back and potentially losing money, but I think a lot of people were saying that because we wanted Herbert. Jones only became a possibility leading up to the draft, but I remember all of 2018 people were saying "2019 QB class is actually good because Herbert will be there."
Correct, and now that Jones is a Giant and has flashed some promise, picking him was suddenly a no-brainer beyond reproach. Typical BBI.
As JonC pointed out, the system could be holding him back, but he's a very smart guy so I'm sure he'll adjust. It just seems like the one read QB's tend to have a higher bust rate than QB's who are taught early how to scan the field.
1925 I have seen you post a few times that Jones is slow to make his reads and that is why he gets hit. Not for nothing but I have never seen that said anywhere by anyone. Does he wait too long to throw the ball, maybe yes, but he is likely waiting for someone to get open and I doubt it is because he cannot make proper reads quickly as you insinuate.
Btw, Herbert's decision to go back to school in 2019 and then playing better in the season is a testament to the young man's character. It's a gutsy move to go against the scouting consensus, take the challenge and succeed. That speaks well of him.
Btw, Herbert's decision to go back to school in 2019 and then playing better in the season is a testament to the young man's character. It's a gutsy move to go against the scouting consensus, take the challenge and succeed. That speaks well of him.
There were multiple reasons he went back. He wanted to experience one year playing with his brother, who was an incoming freshman TE. And he just really liked their team and the college experience. They had a great recruiting class (led by Thibodeaux), and a lot of talent to win the PAC12 and possibly get a spot in the FBS.
If this opinion is based on talent, I’d have to vehemently disagree. I watched a good amount of Herbert this year and the guy has bust written all over him imv. Sure he’s a good athlete with good arm talent, but his decision making isn’t good and he has accuracy issues. The NFL graves are littered with guys just like Herbert who couldn’t develop or be coached into good NFL QBs.
Sy has said that a bunch of times, including in his pre-draft scouting report on Jones - that his processing time seems to be long.
JonC, nice to finally see someone not dance around these big issues, the biggest among them being his atrocious ball security. My Dallas fan friends have nicknamed Jones "Loose Change" as a result of his chronic fumbling.
Every Rookie QB has issues the first year and his are fixable with work, and with experience he will get better reading coverage. Both Aikman and Simms have said it takes 3 years to get really comfortable at the position.
I guess he needed to throw for 4200 yards 36 TDs and have a rating of 105 to make the grade.
Okay, I missed this yesterday but it does call for a reply...even a late one.
What have I ever posted that makes you think I want to dump Jones after one year?
Isn't it clear from the picture of Donald Sutherland that I posted that I was "horrified" by JonC's post, at the mere suggestion that he would draft Herbert and trade Jones?
Isn't it also clear that when JonC brought up Jones' ball security issues - which are a valid concern - I re-posted a tweet lifted from Defenderdawg's thread regarding David Cutcliffe working with Jones this Spring to correct those issues.
So, how the hell could anyone conclude that I was in favor of dumping Jones?
My question to anyone who could would be what the hell are YOU smoking?