Just saw this on Twitter and I’d have to agree (probably add Ellison)...
3 players that will 100% be cut this offseason:
1. Alec Ogletree (dead cap $3.5M, $11.5M cap hit if kept...SEE YA)
2. Antoine Bethea (dead cap $125K, $3.75M cap hit if kept...SEE YA)
3. Kareem Martin (dead cap $1.66M, $6M cap hit if kept...SEE YA)
$16M SAVED!
#giantschat
Anyone else?
p.s.--On the other hand, cutting Spencer Pulley saves them $2.75 (minus the replacement cost).
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And I don't know why the hell he fell out of favor, but I can see them parting ways with Wayne Gallmann.
Gallman saves them no real money. If he gets cut it will be in September when they are reducing roster to 53.
p.s.--On the other hand, cutting Spencer Pulley saves them $2.75 (minus the replacement cost).
Forgot about Pulley. Yeah, he should be a goner.
Re: Gallmann, every little bit helps.
Yup. According to spotrac, Ellison is $7.1 cap hit/$2.1 dead cap for 2020. He’s history, along with the 3 in the OP
I don’t see any other obvious ones
I don't expect them to cut all of them, but they should all be under consideration for being cut. Solder is due $13M in total compensation (between salary, workout bonus, and the roster bonus due March 18th) and I don't see them paying him that kind of money if he isn't playing like a plus player. Cutting him before the roster bonus is due will save $6.5M on this year's cap and $6.5M on next year's cap. The dead money is already spent and should play no role in the decision. Dead money is only a consideration when a team is in cap hell.
I wouldn't give up on him yet, but I think we've seen a few guys like this come through the Giants, including Paul Perkins. They flash, they look they'll at least be valuable backups, then pfffffffft. We could all name Giants from recent years who seemed to fizzle for no obvious reason and soon were out of the league.
Spotrac Armchair GM - ( New Window )
Martin
Ellison
Bethea
Adios.
Spotrac Armchair GM - ( New Window )
Interesting option to restructure a player where Spotrac assigns the player's value to the new restructured salary. Restructuring Zietler knocks him down to the $8M (approx.) range.
Does anyone remember the specifics with Golden Tate and the consequence of pissing hot and his contract guarantees?
Spotrac Armchair GM - ( New Window )
Thanks for posting that link. But why does it show guys on the roster for whom we are being hit for their salary and they are also counting against us for dead cap money? How can that be?
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with the possibilities, Spotrac has a tool where you can manage the roster as an armchair GM.
Spotrac Armchair GM - ( New Window )
Thanks for posting that link. But why does it show guys on the roster for whom we are being hit for their salary and they are also counting against us for dead cap money? How can that be?
What specific player are you referring to?
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The Giants don't have a Center or a Right Tackle. Now you want them to cut their Left Tackle, too? A pay cut may be in his future, or a position change, but I doubt he gets cut outright. Also, I can't see the Giants cutting a guy whose son is battling cancer.
If he refuses to accept a significant paycut then he has to go. You can't pay him $13M. He is replaceable for a lot less money. And his son's condition has nothing to do with it. It's a roster of 53+ players and they all have family and personal issues. It's business and they all understand that.
Oh, puh-leeze. It would be a PR nightmare. Sure, players know it's a business, but I'm sure they'd like to think that ownership has their best interests at heart - and that of their families - in certain special circumstances.
Oh, puh-leeze. It would be a PR nightmare.
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In comment 14796663 Diver_Down said:
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with the possibilities, Spotrac has a tool where you can manage the roster as an armchair GM.
Spotrac Armchair GM - ( New Window )
Thanks for posting that link. But why does it show guys on the roster for whom we are being hit for their salary and they are also counting against us for dead cap money? How can that be?
What specific player are you referring to?
Slayton, Tanney, Taufea, Conrad, White Jr. etc. appear on both lists.
Tanney - Twice as Nice? - ( New Window )
The focus of the free agency period needs to be on bringing in pass rusher and OL help.
We lost out on Chase Young. The idea should be to go into the draft and select BPA.
I think DG goes after a young ER and gets it done. The Center position and OT positions are the next target. One will get fixed quickly IMO.
I don’t think there will be any screwing around in 2020.
Do you realize that cutting someone who may be underperforming his contract but has no significant effect on the cap has to be replaced by another JAG with a comparable salary - or higher salary?
I don't expect them to cut all of them, but they should all be under consideration for being cut. Solder is due $13M in total compensation (between salary, workout bonus, and the roster bonus due March 18th) and I don't see them paying him that kind of money if he isn't playing like a plus player. Cutting him before the roster bonus is due will save $6.5M on this year's cap and $6.5M on next year's cap. The dead money is already spent and should play no role in the decision. Dead money is only a consideration when a team is in cap hell.
Zero chance Solder is getting cut. The Giants aren’t going to create more dead cap pain after last year and create another hole on the OL. They don’t need his money.
2021 is a different story. His replacement could be on the roster at that point. His dead cap would be much more palatable. They may need his money for extensions or signings.
Zero chance Solder is getting cut. The Giants aren’t going to create more dead cap pain after last year and create another hole on the OL. They don’t need his money.
So the question is: Is Solder worth $13M in 2020? If he was a free agent, would you pay him $13M to join the team? It's gonna be a new system anyway, so familiarity isn't the bonus it would normally be.
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Cutting Solder, Ogletree, Ellison, Martin, Bethea, and Pulley would save the Giants $30M in cap space (minus replacement costs) which would give the Giants roughly $90M (minus replacement costs) in total cap space going into free agency.
I don't expect them to cut all of them, but they should all be under consideration for being cut. Solder is due $13M in total compensation (between salary, workout bonus, and the roster bonus due March 18th) and I don't see them paying him that kind of money if he isn't playing like a plus player. Cutting him before the roster bonus is due will save $6.5M on this year's cap and $6.5M on next year's cap. The dead money is already spent and should play no role in the decision. Dead money is only a consideration when a team is in cap hell.
Zero chance Solder is getting cut. The Giants aren’t going to create more dead cap pain after last year and create another hole on the OL. They don’t need his money.
2021 is a different story. His replacement could be on the roster at that point. His dead cap would be much more palatable. They may need his money for extensions or signings.
Think you are right about him not getting cut. Would love to see someone drafted to play right tackle with upside to move to left in a year.
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Oh, puh-leeze. It would be a PR nightmare.
It would not be a PR nightmare. Not sure why you think it would be.
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Sure, players know it's a business, but I'm sure they'd like to think that ownership has their best interests at heart - and that of their families - in certain special circumstances.
Having a player's best interest at heart doesn't include paying him 5 or 10 times their actual value. If Solder were to accept a significant pay cut that's another story. But $13M???
Okay, Mr. Potter.
There is only question: is Solder worth $13M in 2020. The rest is just accounting. Money already spent is money already spent and nothing is going to recreate that money.
Cap savings for:
Ogletree - $8.25M
Ellison - $5M
Kareem Martin - $4.8M
Bethea - $2.75M
**Total cap savings if these 4 are cut = $20.8M. Team cap space goes up from approx. $61.9M to $82.7M.
Noteable others:
Zeitler - $7.5M
Solder - $6.5M
**Zeitler stays another year since they don't have anyone to replace him, but Solder could go if the Giants sign another OT in FA and draft one high in the draft. Watch for a Zeitler cut or restructure in the next year or two though. Solder is on the same boat, but it could come this off-season, especially after the draft.
New York Giants Cap Savings via OverThe Cap.com - As of January 28, 2020 - ( New Window )
2019-20 Important NFL Dates - ( New Window )
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Zero chance Solder is getting cut. The Giants aren’t going to create more dead cap pain after last year and create another hole on the OL. They don’t need his money.
Cutting him doesn't create more dead cap money. That money is already spent and will count against the cap regardless of Solder's status with the team. Cutting him will create $6.5M more in cap space this year and an additional $6.5M in cap space in 2021.
So the question is: Is Solder worth $13M in 2020? If he was a free agent, would you pay him $13M to join the team? It's gonna be a new system anyway, so familiarity isn't the bonus it would normally be.
6.5 million in cap space isn’t jack shit when you have literally nothing behind him at LT.
My main point is that given the Giants cap situation, the dead money is a non-issue. It's already spent money. It only matters if you're tight against the cap and you need to kick the can down the road because it's cheaper (cap-wise) to keep a player than it is to cut him in that particular year. But the Giants have enough cap room this year and next year that there is no need to kick the can down the road. And it reduces his 2020 cap hit from $19.5M to $13M, so the team is still saving $6.5M in cap space (along with $13M in real money and $6.5M in 2021 cap space).
So given that the dead cap money is a non-issue, the only real question is whether or not it is smart to pay him $13M in 2020. Btw, he is due $14M in 2021. So really, why not move on now instead of waiting until next year?
I would suggest cutting his 2020 compensation in half. Give him the $3M roster bonus due on March 18th but cut his salary from $10M to $3.5M. If he says no, then cut him. It's not like he's going to get a better deal from another team in free agency.
The Giants are paying Solder 13 mil whether they keep him or cut him. Rolling the dice at LT just for 6.5 mil in space with a 2nd year QB is just dumb. There’s no one out there to replace him with unless the plan is to go all-in on LT at 4.
Even if the Giants did go all-in on a LT in the draft we’re still most likely looking at shitty OL play in 20 again. Dillard with Philly looked better than any of these guys coming out and he needed the year to develop.
Solder has been pretty bad but he at least represents a bridge to the future. If the Giants go LT in the draft at some point there won’t be pressure for him to play immediately. Hell with improved talent along the OL and better coaching he may actually be solid.
The plan should be to find someone to eventually push him off the roster in 21. That’s the most sensible approach from every angle.
My bad, he’s not verified and it’s just numbers that are public so I didn’t think it mattered. His name is Alex Wilson and he’s a good follow regardless!
https://twitter.com/alexwilsonesm/status/1222285034259931143?s=21 - ( New Window )
For some reason I think Ogletree will have a role on the team. Probably have to accept a pay cut but he is the type of player that NE has done well getting the talent out.
Gallman is still cheap and will at least make it to camp.
Ellison at that salary will either take a pay cut or be gone.
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The Giants are paying Solder 13 mil whether they keep him or cut him.
The Giants are not paying him $13M whether they keep him or cut him. They are only paying him $13M if they keep him. There is no guaranteed money left on his deal.
Solder has a 13 mil dead cap hit if they cut him. Whether they’re paying him the money or not, the Giants overall cap figure is reduced by at least 13 mil whether he’s on the team or not.
Did the earth re-populate its supply already?
I would think he stays, even if we draft a LT, to play RT or as depth.
I suspect, from my own eyes, that an upgrade at C would help Solder quite a bit.
He does get beat cleanly way too often, I agree, but may times he is pushing the edge rusher deep into the backfield, which in theory should be out of the play if the qb had a pocket to step up into. Our interior protection seems to get pushed back resulting in Solder pushing the edge rusher right into the retreating qb.
The OL has been a shit-show for years. Let's hope some combination of current players and new ones can get it done.
Forget about the dead cap hit. It's a non-issue. It's money already spent and the only question is whether it is all accounted for this year or whether it is divided between this year and next year. All that really matters is the $13M he is due this year. Is he or is he not worth it to the team? Can they replace his production for less than that? Can they improve on his production for the equivalent cost?
Right now we have Solder, Gates and Big George.
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Ellison is not a guaranteed cut the way most of you think.
They can't keep him on the roster at his current cost. Cutting him saves 5 million on the cap. I could see them cutting him and re-signing him at a lower deal but there's no chance he's worth the 7.1 million dollar cap hit. Cut him and roll with Engram, Smith and Simonson or a cheaper FA.
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Solder has a 13 mil dead cap hit if they cut him. Whether they’re paying him the money or not, the Giants overall cap figure is reduced by at least 13 mil whether he’s on the team or not.
If they keep him he has a $19.5M cap hit this year and they will have a $6.5M dead cap hit when they cut him next year (or pay him $14M and have a $20.5M cap hit).
Forget about the dead cap hit. It's a non-issue. It's money already spent and the only question is whether it is all accounted for this year or whether it is divided between this year and next year. All that really matters is the $13M he is due this year. Is he or is he not worth it to the team? Can they replace his production for less than that? Can they improve on his production for the equivalent cost?
You can’t just say “forget the dead cap hit.” That’s precisely the point.
Because of the potential dead cap hit, it makes more sense to ride it out this year instead of dumping him for some dumpster dive FA signing or throwing a draft pick into the fire.
His potential value to the team relative to the dead cap hit is why he has to stick another year. 21 is different as the dead cap is substantially less.
The problem is Solder is abysmal, old, and expensive. Assuming a 32-year-old in year 10 of his NFL career is going to markedly improve is the same magical optimism that gets the Giants into these messes.
27M is a substantial contribution to make to the overall cost of upgrading the positioning.
For context, Solder cost the Giants 10M against the cap in his first year.
If the Giants invest in a comparably expensive player, it is quite possible the overall cap hit to markedly upgrade the position would be less than 4M more cap dollars in 2020.
I do agree with the other three...Bethea, Martin, and Ellison.
And we really can’t dump Solder yet....hopefully he too can turn his game around somewhere on the line with better coaching and perhaps him taking a pay cut.
I do agree with the other three...Bethea, Martin, and Ellison.
And we really can’t dump Solder yet....hopefully he too can turn his game around somewhere on the line with better coaching and perhaps him taking a pay cut.
What indicator is there going into his 10th year he can turn it around at a new position?
He used to be pretty good, now he's banged up all the time, and his play is suffering.
This isn't about coaching or systems, it's a player who's at the end of his career and it's obvious.
The bet is his body miraculous holds up is a crap shoot.
You can’t just say “forget the dead cap hit.” That’s precisely the point. Because of the potential dead cap hit, it makes more sense to ride it out this year.
So, please, take my word for it. The dead cap money is a non-issue. It's money already spent and nothing is bringing it back. If the Giants were tight against the cap, it would be an issue, but they are in the exact opposite situation. They have more cap space than they will need even if they spend like a drunken sailor.
So if you want to make a case that Solder is worth paying $13M, go for it. I don't see it. By most accounts, he was a liability last year. So you want to pay a liability $13M??? There will be options that are no worse than him who can be had for much less money. Marshall Newhouse manned the left tackle position for the Patriots last year and received less than $1M for his services. I can't imagine he was worse than Solder, but I'm not a scout. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me can explain why he was so much better than Newhouse last year and why we can expect him to play up to his $13M salary once again in 2020.
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You can’t just say “forget the dead cap hit.” That’s precisely the point. Because of the potential dead cap hit, it makes more sense to ride it out this year.
Why does it make more sense to ride it out? The Giants have tons of cap room this year, they don't need to kick the can down the road. If you want to make a case for Solder being worth $13M in compensation for 2020, feel free, but the $13M dead cap hit--whether it counts against this year or is divided between this year and next--has nothing to do with it. The Giants aren't going to use up the $60M-$85M in cap space (depending on cuts) they will have in free agency and will surely be rolling some of it over into next year anyway.
So, please, take my word for it. The dead cap money is a non-issue. It's money already spent and nothing is bringing it back. If the Giants were tight against the cap, it would be an issue, but they are in the exact opposite situation. They have more cap space than they will need even if they spend like a drunken sailor.
So if you want to make a case that Solder is worth paying $13M, go for it. I don't see it. By most accounts, he was a liability last year. So you want to pay a liability $13M??? There will be options that are no worse than him who can be had for much less money. Marshall Newhouse manned the left tackle position for the Patriots last year and received less than $1M for his services. I can't imagine he was worse than Solder, but I'm not a scout. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me can explain why he was so much better than Newhouse last year and why we can expect him to play up to his $13M salary once again in 2020.
The Pats OL sucked last year. You keep bringing up Newhouse like he was a good player.
Who are all these value LTs that are going to be available in FA?
You want to cut Solder, great. What’s your plan to replace him?