There's a little smoke coming out of the Burrows camp, and who he is training with for the combine, that may indicate that the Burrows family is trying to encourage the Bengals to trade the number 1 pick. Link - ( New Window )
I would think Miami would be the trading partner in that scenario and take a QB needy team behind us off the board.
If I am Cin and Burrow checks all the boxes I take him anyway and force the hand or I take Young who is the best player in the draft. The NFL and NFLPA need to get that straightened out. If you sign up for the draft the contracts should already be worked out based on Draft position and there should be zero negotiation. You go where you are drafted or you dont play in the NFL.
If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
Says he wants to play for a team that is committed to winning Super Bowls. Show me a list of players that don't want to do that. Training with Jordan Palmer? Not sure how that shows he doesn't want to play for the Bengals. Then an ex-receiver says they should consider trading the first pick for a gigantic haul of picks. Duh. The fact that no one in the family has come out and said he doesn't want to play in Cincinnati doesn't matter I guess. But that won't generate clicks.
would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
Oh I just read (and I had forgotten about this) he was a Saints fan growing up. Yeah, so essentially this would be like one of us being a top prospect and the Jets having the #1 overall pick. If it's not the team you're a fan of, the "local" aspect of it doesn't really impact your decision. Unless, of course, his goal is to live in Ohio his entire life.
I would think Miami would be the trading partner in that scenario and take a QB needy team behind us off the board.
If I am Cin and Burrow checks all the boxes I take him anyway and force the hand or I take Young who is the best player in the draft. The NFL and NFLPA need to get that straightened out. If you sign up for the draft the contracts should already be worked out based on Draft position and there should be zero negotiation. You go where you are drafted or you dont play in the NFL.
Wouldn't the Bengals then have capital and be just as Qb (Tua) needy?
than the would have if they just traded the #1 pick ? I never thought they did. With a Manning in the draft they could have gotten a haul had they taken bids for the pick in advance. Instead they called Eli's bluff. Once the Giants took Rivers their options were limited.
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
I wouldn't say that Burrow would be cosidered a hometown hero in Cincinnati, nor would he consider himself as such.
The Bengals network coverage is so small that they generally only get a tiny slice of the TV pie, even in Ohio itself. It's like the people of Ohio would rather watch an ice fishing show than the Bengals.
I can see why there's speculation regarding Burrow's thinking.
would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
Oh and a big question: Could he handle NY as Eli did and DJ appears to be doing?
Does Cincy make a trade and gamble it will get Tua or some other QB later in the draft? Do they just pick Young? If they pick Young, do the Redskins pull an Arizona and pick Burrow considering the lukewarm responses from Rivera about Haskins?
And out of all those (and other scenarios) which helps the Giants the most and least?
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
IMO, Burrow being a Heisman winner, a National Champion, and having just set all sorts of records with 6000 total yards, 65 total TDs, 77% cmp.%, etc. ... I think he has more leverage than you might be giving him credit for. He's also very well-liked in general. If he said "I don't want to play for the Bengals" (which a lot of people would be understanding of given their history as a franchise) and threatened some sort of holdout, or skipping a season, or whatever the necessary threat would be, his status as a prospect is such that I believe he'd still hold all the cards; i.e. I believe he'd still have an opportunity to sign a big contract with a team he wants to play for whenever he "gets around" the process and I think the Bengals would have to take that into consideration when/if this "stare-down" ever happens.
If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
i agreer. I don't see him pulling an "Eli" on the Bengals. He's an Ohio kid and I think the Bengals are actually a good fit for him
Because the Bengals are a disaster of an organization and notoriously cheap. He's from OH, it's a big state, why assume he's a Bengals fan?
Not to mention he's NOT a Bengals fan.
Nor do we even know if he wants to live in Ohio.
This idea that it would just be a "dream come true" for him to play for the "hometown" Bengals and live in Ohio, simply because he happened to go to high school there due to his father taking a job in the area, is entirely fabricated by the media because it sounds nice.
San Diego's treatment of Philip Rivers may have played a role in Burrows thinking.
The one thing that Eli wanted was to go to a stable franchise with good ownership, because he did not want his career to end up like Archies with the Saints. Eli forced his way out of SD, not to come to the Giants, he did not want to play for a bad ownership group.
Fast Forward 16 years and Eli has 2 Rings, and on the verge of the Hall of Fame. The Giants gave him a send off filled with respect and admiration.
While after 16 years with San Diego, Philip Rivers(holder of most of SD passing records) gets a tweet saying they are not bringing him back.
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
Oh I just read (and I had forgotten about this) he was a Saints fan growing up. Yeah, so essentially this would be like one of us being a top prospect and the Jets having the #1 overall pick. If it's not the team you're a fan of, the "local" aspect of it doesn't really impact your decision. Unless, of course, his goal is to live in Ohio his entire life.
The "hometown" stuff is pretty misleading. He was born in Iowa, and lived there, Nebraska and North Dakota as his father took different coaching jobs. He went to high school in Athens, Ohio. Saying Cincy is his "hometown" is like saying someone from Rhode Island is from NYC. Not to mention the difference between Athens and Cincy as far as the culture goes is similar to the difference between Rhode Island and NYC.
Now, he is a "small-town" kid, so maybe Cincy would appeal to him more than Miami or LA. No one knows.
Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
Peyton couldn't force his way out of Indianapolis because the San Diego had the second pick. And there is no way Peyton wanted to play for SD.
Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That is pretty bold call. If Burrow doesn't sign the contract, he enters next year's draft. Meanwhile, Cincy gets no compensation.
Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
...saving face because he's heard that Cincy doesn't want him?
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
Slow news day? It started back on January 31st during the week of the Super Bowl. If you read my responses to Gidie's original thread, I lay out the story with the timeline.
...saving face because he's heard that Cincy doesn't want him?
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
Slow news day? It started back on January 31st during the week of the Super Bowl. If you read my responses to Gidie's original thread, I lay out the story with the timeline.
Diver- 100% agree and I saw some items a while back that hinted at this as well. The first real wrinkle here happened at the Senior Bowl. The Bengals wanted him to come out (not play but be there for practices and meetings etc.) and he refused. At first glance not a big deal BUT, when your future employer is asking you and if they are someone you want to work for, don't you go? He said no. Then the pushing of the mention- Super Bowl contender or doing all the right things to win a Super Bowl. That isn't to be taken lightly as it seems like a very calculated take on where the Bengals are viewed as not being. Add in the push by TJ and others for the Bengals to trade the PIC for a windfall, even though TJ is working with or around BUrrow, sure seems like a push to get Burrow somewhere other than Cincinnati.
Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That's what Ralph Kramden said about Mr. Johnson's rent increase. Honeymooners - ( New Window )
“You know, that I know, how fast you get the virus.”
I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
San Diego's treatment of Philip Rivers may have played a role in Burrows thinking.
The one thing that Eli wanted was to go to a stable franchise with good ownership, because he did not want his career to end up like Archies with the Saints. Eli forced his way out of SD, not to come to the Giants, he did not want to play for a bad ownership group.
Fast Forward 16 years and Eli has 2 Rings, and on the verge of the Hall of Fame. The Giants gave him a send off filled with respect and admiration.
While after 16 years with San Diego, Philip Rivers(holder of most of SD passing records) gets a tweet saying they are not bringing him back.
I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
That's completely normal for any player (or a wise dad of a player) in the draft to not show any preference. You don't promote any team because nothing is guaranteed until Goodell calls out your name on draft day. Really doesn't mean anything.
Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That's what Ralph Kramden said about Mr. Johnson's rent increase. Honeymooners - ( New Window )
“You know, that I know, how fast you get the virus.”
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
Peyton couldn't force his way out of Indianapolis because the San Diego had the second pick. And there is no way Peyton wanted to play for SD.
Peyton is strongly rumored to have gone back to school in 1997 to avoid the Jets, who had the #1 pick that year.
I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
I disagree with the notion of it being "ripe for the taking" considering Baltimore is in that division. Why is Jackson at a risk of losing his athletic ability? He's only 23. I don't think we can just assume he's going to sustain a major injury at some point, when he has literally zero injury history and has played this way his whole life. After 30 years old is one thing, but that's not for another 7-8 years.
They were generally considered the best team in football this year before they happened to lay an egg against Tennessee in the playoffs. But that team is very very good and their 23 year old QB just won the league MVP. I don't wouldn't count on them going away any time soon.
I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
That's completely normal for any player (or a wise dad of a player) in the draft to not show any preference. You don't promote any team because nothing is guaranteed until Goodell calls out your name on draft day. Really doesn't mean anything.
Actually, no, you basically are ignoring the fact that they are trying to say they wouldn't have an issue with the Bengals picking them (or at least, you are trying to quiet that rumor) and instead you basically made the rumor seem even more plausible by not saying their Name (they own the #1 pick- not like team 15....)..
Owner is the worst in the NFL, what Marvin Lewis did here was the best coaching job in the NFL without a soul noticing. I wished the Giants would have tried him, he was great at drafting and the organization runs about 30-50 million under the cap, yet made the playoffs almost every year competing against the Steelers and Ravens. All the idiots focused on how he couldn't win a playoff game, got no credit for 1 of the 2 greatest defenses in the games history, think of all the credit Buddy Ryan got for the Bears, Marvin did every bit as good as Buddy did, only hge never tooted his horn, so the asshole got lots of credit while so called great football fans never knew Marvin Lewis was the DC for the 2000 Ravens, the same ones who scoff at him.
It’s the guy’s right to say or do whatever the fuck he wants to do. If it blows up in his face? It’s on him. It’s his LIFE. Any player can try this but only a select few can actually dictate the draft. Why not? You wouldn’t? You sure about that? If you could, and didn’t, you’re a fool.
would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
But do you think DJ straight up gets it done value wise? From what I saw out of DJ to me that answer is yes if I am bengals. But are we viewing DJ with giant colored glasses? Short of fumbles I am not sure what else we could have asked from him. Burrows upside may be tantalizing but would an nfl gm really demand more than DJ for first pick?
...saving face because he's heard that Cincy doesn't want him?
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
What negotiations? Pretty much the only thing negotiable is the offset language, and while I would expect a notoriously cheap organization like the Bengals to play hardball on the offset provision, I also would expect a presumed franchise QB prospect to spend less time worrying about what happens to his opportunity to earn additional guaranteed money if he's cut during his rookie deal.
Other than that, there's not really very much room for negotiation in rookie contracts, particularly near the top of the draft.
And I was seven years old at the time, so I can't say I know what kind of baseball prospect he was. Doing a little research though, it seems that he was at least a very good prospect. In his lone minor league season at low-A Oneonta in 1981, he hit .318/.432/.464 in 42 games despite the fact that he was coming in cold - he hadn't played for Stanford in the spring of '81 before reporting to Oneonta in June.
A 2015 milb.com article quotes his minor league manager, Ken Berry, as saying "He probably would have been a 25- to 30-double guy with 10-15 home runs, drive in 60 or 70 runs and score 60 or 70 but not a superstar, I didn't feel. A solid player. You never know because it didn't happen, but that was the way I pictured him." His coach at Stanford said, "There's no question he could've been a Major League player. He's left-handed [as a hitter]. He's got power. He's athletic. He's got a cannon for an arm....I've never seen any athlete -- in football or baseball -- with that arm." Yankees scout Gary Hughes said "He had great power, left-handed pull power. Yankee Stadium, he was made for. The sky was the limit. If he would've turned around and concentrated just on baseball, I think it would have been off the charts."
Beyond all that, George Steinbrenner wanted him desperately and was willing to pay him millions, which was something that just didn't happen with college players in the early '80s. Those were Big Stein's imperious George III years. Internally, he and the front office were planning on Elway being in the Bronx within maybe two years.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
Whoever was quoted saying that should never have been allowed to make a trade
Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
I'll focus on the Elway thing first. Greg gave more context below. But per the discussion that he was going to be in right field. If you can watch the 30 for 30 about the 1983 draft (From Elway to Marino), they spent time specifically talking about his stint with the Yankees. We know George was huge about having big names/flashy players on the Yankees. And as a former football coach, George knew exactly what it meant to have the best QB prospect playing for the Yankees and a huge name like Elway.
Anyway, they recounted the story that Elway came to visit Yankee Stadium prior to the draft. It was a power move by Elway to show the Colts they'd better trade him. Elway was brought into George's office and they showed him a potential lineup for 1985/1986 and Elway in left field. Elway asked "who is Mattingly at first base?" And he was told, oh, he's in Columbus but he's going to be really good.
So the Yankees planned on him spending a couple of years in the minors and starting in the outfield.
As for the gravitas question. Yes, any player can sit out a season, but how many actually could and can afford to sit out? Elway had the Yankees. Bo had the Royals. Eli's family was rich and had significant pull in the NFL. Burrow is going to turn down millions to have in hand? I just don't see it.
Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
I posted an article that suggested it?
No, Diver_Down posted about it in your "first four picks" thread.
would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
More like servicable, not high. Cutting down on the fumble may not be easy as seems. Some have a knack fir things..sla fumbling that nothing can do about.
You did in this thread. I started laying down the info back on January 31st.
I'm still having trouble understanding your point ?
The point I was making was that the discussion could and should have been started back on January 31st on your own thread. I literally used the phrase a week ago that you used in your subject line. If you had read your original thread, the discussion could have taken place then.
I love you, but I think your comments are a little over the top on this. I posted a current article and made a comment. It's a relevant topic to discuss on it's own merits. Kudos to you for bringing it up on a thread a week ago. That doesn't mean that if a relevant and credible article from a reputable source surfaces it can't be posted and discussed on it's own merits a week later.
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
I'll focus on the Elway thing first. Greg gave more context below. But per the discussion that he was going to be in right field. If you can watch the 30 for 30 about the 1983 draft (From Elway to Marino), they spent time specifically talking about his stint with the Yankees. We know George was huge about having big names/flashy players on the Yankees. And as a former football coach, George knew exactly what it meant to have the best QB prospect playing for the Yankees and a huge name like Elway.
Anyway, they recounted the story that Elway came to visit Yankee Stadium prior to the draft. It was a power move by Elway to show the Colts they'd better trade him. Elway was brought into George's office and they showed him a potential lineup for 1985/1986 and Elway in left field. Elway asked "who is Mattingly at first base?" And he was told, oh, he's in Columbus but he's going to be really good.
So the Yankees planned on him spending a couple of years in the minors and starting in the outfield.
As for the gravitas question. Yes, any player can sit out a season, but how many actually could and can afford to sit out? Elway had the Yankees. Bo had the Royals. Eli's family was rich and had significant pull in the NFL. Burrow is going to turn down millions to have in hand? I just don't see it.
Matt, you'll probably never read this because this thread has been over for a couple of days, but I thought I'd respond anyway.
I stated that Elway was a good, but not a great prospect and nothing I've read in this thread or elsewhere has convinced me otherwise.
Greg posted a quote from Elway's low-A-ball manager suggesting that he thought Elway "probably" would have been a guy who averaged 10-15 HR and 60-70 RBI, while you suggested that Elway would have been the Yank's starting RF by the mid-80s.
Dave Winfield was the starting RF for the Yanks from 84-88. Here are his HR/RBI numbers as the Yank's RF during that time:
We know that George loved having big name players, but I doubt he would have replaced Winfield with a RF who put up 10-15 HR and 60-70 RBI, nor would he have settled for any corner outfielder putting up pedestrian numbers like that for an extended number of years.
And let's not forget that this was a projection for a player in low-A ball. All you have to do is Google "MLB Draft" for almost any year to see a long list of first round picks who ended up having dissapointing careers... some who have never played a single game at the MLB level. (I'll bet most had A-ball managers who made great projections for them too.)
So to definitively state twice on this thread that Elway "was going to be in right field" (for the Yanks) based on Elway's 42 game, low A-ball career is nonsense.
Elway wouldn't have replaced Winfield and if somehow made it to the MLB level and put up his projected numbers, the Yanks would have traded him after a few years, just like they did with Steve Kemp.
Elway was a good (not great) baseball prospect who was also a superstar football prospect. No one thought he was going to choose baseball over football.
i agreer. I don't see him pulling an "Eli" on the Bengals. He's an Ohio kid and I think the Bengals are actually a good fit for him
If I am Cin and Burrow checks all the boxes I take him anyway and force the hand or I take Young who is the best player in the draft. The NFL and NFLPA need to get that straightened out. If you sign up for the draft the contracts should already be worked out based on Draft position and there should be zero negotiation. You go where you are drafted or you dont play in the NFL.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
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If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
Oh I just read (and I had forgotten about this) he was a Saints fan growing up. Yeah, so essentially this would be like one of us being a top prospect and the Jets having the #1 overall pick. If it's not the team you're a fan of, the "local" aspect of it doesn't really impact your decision. Unless, of course, his goal is to live in Ohio his entire life.
If I am Cin and Burrow checks all the boxes I take him anyway and force the hand or I take Young who is the best player in the draft. The NFL and NFLPA need to get that straightened out. If you sign up for the draft the contracts should already be worked out based on Draft position and there should be zero negotiation. You go where you are drafted or you dont play in the NFL.
Wouldn't the Bengals then have capital and be just as Qb (Tua) needy?
Did you mean to write Elway?
No, I meant Eli. But I'm good adding Elway as well. He certainly belongs in the group...
Maybe not playing for a cheap owner.
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Did you mean to write Elway?
No, I meant Eli. But I'm good adding Elway as well. He certainly belongs in the group...
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
The Bengals network coverage is so small that they generally only get a tiny slice of the TV pie, even in Ohio itself. It's like the people of Ohio would rather watch an ice fishing show than the Bengals.
I can see why there's speculation regarding Burrow's thinking.
He was in town with her a few weeks ago:
Joe Burrow visit to Mason draws crowd at wing joint - ( New Window )
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would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
Oh and a big question: Could he handle NY as Eli did and DJ appears to be doing?
And out of all those (and other scenarios) which helps the Giants the most and least?
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If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
i agreer. I don't see him pulling an "Eli" on the Bengals. He's an Ohio kid and I think the Bengals are actually a good fit for him
Because the Bengals are a disaster of an organization and notoriously cheap. He's from OH, it's a big state, why assume he's a Bengals fan?
Something a Giant did rubs you the wrong way? No fucking way.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
IMO, Burrow being a Heisman winner, a National Champion, and having just set all sorts of records with 6000 total yards, 65 total TDs, 77% cmp.%, etc. ... I think he has more leverage than you might be giving him credit for. He's also very well-liked in general. If he said "I don't want to play for the Bengals" (which a lot of people would be understanding of given their history as a franchise) and threatened some sort of holdout, or skipping a season, or whatever the necessary threat would be, his status as a prospect is such that I believe he'd still hold all the cards; i.e. I believe he'd still have an opportunity to sign a big contract with a team he wants to play for whenever he "gets around" the process and I think the Bengals would have to take that into consideration when/if this "stare-down" ever happens.
It is if course a gamble by the player, who might sit out a year only to find he isnt such hot shit when that year is up.
Give generic answers and don't be a 3 year old is all it takes to "handle" the New York media.
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In comment 14804919 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
i agreer. I don't see him pulling an "Eli" on the Bengals. He's an Ohio kid and I think the Bengals are actually a good fit for him
Because the Bengals are a disaster of an organization and notoriously cheap. He's from OH, it's a big state, why assume he's a Bengals fan?
Not to mention he's NOT a Bengals fan.
Nor do we even know if he wants to live in Ohio.
This idea that it would just be a "dream come true" for him to play for the "hometown" Bengals and live in Ohio, simply because he happened to go to high school there due to his father taking a job in the area, is entirely fabricated by the media because it sounds nice.
The one thing that Eli wanted was to go to a stable franchise with good ownership, because he did not want his career to end up like Archies with the Saints. Eli forced his way out of SD, not to come to the Giants, he did not want to play for a bad ownership group.
Fast Forward 16 years and Eli has 2 Rings, and on the verge of the Hall of Fame. The Giants gave him a send off filled with respect and admiration.
While after 16 years with San Diego, Philip Rivers(holder of most of SD passing records) gets a tweet saying they are not bringing him back.
Cincinnati's ownership is as bad as San Diego's.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
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In comment 14804919 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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If so, wouldn't playing for his hometown team be a dream? Or maybe that's me.
I don't think it's ever been confirmed whether or not he was actually a Bengals fan. You can be from Ohio and not be a Bengals fan, and I could particularly imagine it with the Bengals being an awful organization to root for over the years. If you're not a fan of the team I don't think it matters that they're the "local" team.
Also just because he went to high school there doesn't mean he would want to live there. I feel like that's the piece so many "experts" are missing in this story. What if Burrow doesn't like Ohio? How can we be sure what his true feelings are? Of course maybe he's going to pay his due respects to his hometown, but are we sure he wants to live there as an adult? Once I got out of North NJ I certainly never cared to move back there.
Oh I just read (and I had forgotten about this) he was a Saints fan growing up. Yeah, so essentially this would be like one of us being a top prospect and the Jets having the #1 overall pick. If it's not the team you're a fan of, the "local" aspect of it doesn't really impact your decision. Unless, of course, his goal is to live in Ohio his entire life.
The "hometown" stuff is pretty misleading. He was born in Iowa, and lived there, Nebraska and North Dakota as his father took different coaching jobs. He went to high school in Athens, Ohio. Saying Cincy is his "hometown" is like saying someone from Rhode Island is from NYC. Not to mention the difference between Athens and Cincy as far as the culture goes is similar to the difference between Rhode Island and NYC.
Now, he is a "small-town" kid, so maybe Cincy would appeal to him more than Miami or LA. No one knows.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
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I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
Peyton couldn't force his way out of Indianapolis because the San Diego had the second pick. And there is no way Peyton wanted to play for SD.
Would you?
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That is pretty bold call. If Burrow doesn't sign the contract, he enters next year's draft. Meanwhile, Cincy gets no compensation.
Not if that hometown team is the fucking Cincinnati Bengals.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That's what Ralph Kramden said about Mr. Johnson's rent increase.
Honeymooners - ( New Window )
I love it - bring on the drama.
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
Slow news day? It started back on January 31st during the week of the Super Bowl. If you read my responses to Gidie's original thread, I lay out the story with the timeline.
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...saving face because he's heard that Cincy doesn't want him?
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
Slow news day? It started back on January 31st during the week of the Super Bowl. If you read my responses to Gidie's original thread, I lay out the story with the timeline.
Diver- 100% agree and I saw some items a while back that hinted at this as well. The first real wrinkle here happened at the Senior Bowl. The Bengals wanted him to come out (not play but be there for practices and meetings etc.) and he refused. At first glance not a big deal BUT, when your future employer is asking you and if they are someone you want to work for, don't you go? He said no. Then the pushing of the mention- Super Bowl contender or doing all the right things to win a Super Bowl. That isn't to be taken lightly as it seems like a very calculated take on where the Bengals are viewed as not being. Add in the push by TJ and others for the Bengals to trade the PIC for a windfall, even though TJ is working with or around BUrrow, sure seems like a push to get Burrow somewhere other than Cincinnati.
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Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That's what Ralph Kramden said about Mr. Johnson's rent increase. Honeymooners - ( New Window )
“You know, that I know, how fast you get the virus.”
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
The one thing that Eli wanted was to go to a stable franchise with good ownership, because he did not want his career to end up like Archies with the Saints. Eli forced his way out of SD, not to come to the Giants, he did not want to play for a bad ownership group.
Fast Forward 16 years and Eli has 2 Rings, and on the verge of the Hall of Fame. The Giants gave him a send off filled with respect and admiration.
While after 16 years with San Diego, Philip Rivers(holder of most of SD passing records) gets a tweet saying they are not bringing him back.
Cincinnati's ownership is as bad as San Diego's.
When did this happen?
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I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
That's completely normal for any player (or a wise dad of a player) in the draft to not show any preference. You don't promote any team because nothing is guaranteed until Goodell calls out your name on draft day. Really doesn't mean anything.
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In comment 14805015 Bramton1 said:
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Eli tried this. Elway tried this. Kobe tried this. In every case, none of the teams called their bluff, because they were too terrified of the consequences if the player actually sat out. But Elway and Accorsi were starting to have discussions, there is no way the Mannings would have actually had Eli sit out, and Kobe admitted years laer that had the Nets drafted him, he would have gone there.
The only sport that players are able to made such a threat and follow through with it is baseball, because a player can just choose to go to college instead.
Burrow is bluffing, Call him on it.
That's what Ralph Kramden said about Mr. Johnson's rent increase. Honeymooners - ( New Window )
“You know, that I know, how fast you get the virus.”
never gets old :-)
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In comment 14804976 Matt in SGS said:
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I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
Some interesting perspectives here about the two sports guys. That's reasonable context...
But the Mannings looked bad because four years prior Peyton went to the Colts, who were a complete mess with an awful owner. PM even told Bill Polian in the pre-draft process that he looked forward to kicking the Colts' ass if they didn't draft him. So he wanted the challenge of rebuilding that organiation...
It was a big 180 when it came time for Eli to follow in a similar path...
Peyton couldn't force his way out of Indianapolis because the San Diego had the second pick. And there is no way Peyton wanted to play for SD.
Peyton is strongly rumored to have gone back to school in 1997 to avoid the Jets, who had the #1 pick that year.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
I disagree with the notion of it being "ripe for the taking" considering Baltimore is in that division. Why is Jackson at a risk of losing his athletic ability? He's only 23. I don't think we can just assume he's going to sustain a major injury at some point, when he has literally zero injury history and has played this way his whole life. After 30 years old is one thing, but that's not for another 7-8 years.
They were generally considered the best team in football this year before they happened to lay an egg against Tennessee in the playoffs. But that team is very very good and their 23 year old QB just won the league MVP. I don't wouldn't count on them going away any time soon.
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In comment 14805190 allstarjim said:
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I would love to go to the Bengals. You can really make a legacy there.
And I look at that division and I see Pittsburgh, who doesn't have an heir apparent to Roethlisberger, Cleveland, whose confidence is perhaps a bit shaken in Mayfield as a viable franchise QB, and Baltimore, a great team but whose franchise QB is reliant on his maintaining his elite athletic ability.
That division is ripe for the taking. And if you turn around that franchise, the fan interest will be there.
True BUT, if Burrow (and his people) feel the Bengals are too frugal, too laid back about winning a Championship, then you can see shy he might want to be elsewhere. Burrow's Dad came out and tried to quell the speculation BUT, his response or answer just adds to it for me- he said Joe would be honored to be a HIGH draft pick (paraphrasing) but in no way said proud to be drafted by the Bengals. If I wanted to shut rumors down completely I say we would love it if the Bengals took Joe #1! But his Dad chose not to say the Bengals name!
That's completely normal for any player (or a wise dad of a player) in the draft to not show any preference. You don't promote any team because nothing is guaranteed until Goodell calls out your name on draft day. Really doesn't mean anything.
Actually, no, you basically are ignoring the fact that they are trying to say they wouldn't have an issue with the Bengals picking them (or at least, you are trying to quiet that rumor) and instead you basically made the rumor seem even more plausible by not saying their Name (they own the #1 pick- not like team 15....)..
I'm sure he'd rather go to a better org, but I don't see anything in that article that makes me think he's demanding to go elsewhere.
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would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
This ^^^
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
We need OL's, WR's, DE's, LB's, CB's, etc...alot of players.
I'm thinking a trade down from #4 would make sense unless Okudah or Chase Young are available there...and they likely won't be.
In comment 14804938 Steve in ATL said:
...letting Cincy know that negotiations aren't going to be easy?
...slow news day, looking for clicks/likes/follows?
Could be he just doesn't like Cincy but maybe there are other reasons for the rumor.
What negotiations? Pretty much the only thing negotiable is the offset language, and while I would expect a notoriously cheap organization like the Bengals to play hardball on the offset provision, I also would expect a presumed franchise QB prospect to spend less time worrying about what happens to his opportunity to earn additional guaranteed money if he's cut during his rookie deal.
Other than that, there's not really very much room for negotiation in rookie contracts, particularly near the top of the draft.
A 2015 milb.com article quotes his minor league manager, Ken Berry, as saying "He probably would have been a 25- to 30-double guy with 10-15 home runs, drive in 60 or 70 runs and score 60 or 70 but not a superstar, I didn't feel. A solid player. You never know because it didn't happen, but that was the way I pictured him." His coach at Stanford said, "There's no question he could've been a Major League player. He's left-handed [as a hitter]. He's got power. He's athletic. He's got a cannon for an arm....I've never seen any athlete -- in football or baseball -- with that arm." Yankees scout Gary Hughes said "He had great power, left-handed pull power. Yankee Stadium, he was made for. The sky was the limit. If he would've turned around and concentrated just on baseball, I think it would have been off the charts."
Beyond all that, George Steinbrenner wanted him desperately and was willing to pay him millions, which was something that just didn't happen with college players in the early '80s. Those were Big Stein's imperious George III years. Internally, he and the front office were planning on Elway being in the Bronx within maybe two years.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
Whoever was quoted saying that should never have been allowed to make a trade
Diver, I'm really not sure what your point is.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
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I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
I'll focus on the Elway thing first. Greg gave more context below. But per the discussion that he was going to be in right field. If you can watch the 30 for 30 about the 1983 draft (From Elway to Marino), they spent time specifically talking about his stint with the Yankees. We know George was huge about having big names/flashy players on the Yankees. And as a former football coach, George knew exactly what it meant to have the best QB prospect playing for the Yankees and a huge name like Elway.
Anyway, they recounted the story that Elway came to visit Yankee Stadium prior to the draft. It was a power move by Elway to show the Colts they'd better trade him. Elway was brought into George's office and they showed him a potential lineup for 1985/1986 and Elway in left field. Elway asked "who is Mattingly at first base?" And he was told, oh, he's in Columbus but he's going to be really good.
So the Yankees planned on him spending a couple of years in the minors and starting in the outfield.
As for the gravitas question. Yes, any player can sit out a season, but how many actually could and can afford to sit out? Elway had the Yankees. Bo had the Royals. Eli's family was rich and had significant pull in the NFL. Burrow is going to turn down millions to have in hand? I just don't see it.
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Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
I posted an article that suggested it?
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In comment 14805042 Diver_Down said:
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Don't you read your own threads? I posted on your thread starting on January 31st of the start of the information. For that matter, BBI hasn't picked up on what I was laying out except for jvm.
In fairness to gidiefor, you did say "Probably deserves its own thread." Well, now it has it.
I posted an article that suggested it?
No, Diver_Down posted about it in your "first four picks" thread.
Quote:
would you trade Daniel Jones as part of a trade up for him?
No..We’ve seen DJ at the PRO level and his ceiling appears quite high albeit he obviously needs to clean up stuff. Burrow might be the next Peyton or the next Leaf, or, somewhere in between. Unknown. Keep DJ and fortify areas of need
More like servicable, not high. Cutting down on the fumble may not be easy as seems. Some have a knack fir things..sla fumbling that nothing can do about.
As far as trade for Burrows..nope
I posted an article that suggested it?
No, Diver_Down posted about it in your "first four picks" thread.
So I didn't post an article that suggested it?
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I posted an article that suggested it?
No, Diver_Down posted about it in your "first four picks" thread.
So I didn't post an article that suggested it?
You did in this thread. I started laying down the info back on January 31st.
So I didn't post an article that suggested it?
You did in this thread. I started laying down the info back on January 31st.
I'm still having trouble understanding your point ?
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So I didn't post an article that suggested it?
You did in this thread. I started laying down the info back on January 31st.
I'm still having trouble understanding your point ?
The point I was making was that the discussion could and should have been started back on January 31st on your own thread. I literally used the phrase a week ago that you used in your subject line. If you had read your original thread, the discussion could have taken place then.
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In comment 14804976 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
I'm not sure Burrow has the gravitas to pull off a move like this.
Elway was the first to really do this. But Elway had a couple of things going for him. First of all, he was drafted by the Yankees and they had millions waiting for him. He was slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s. He had a real fallback option.
Bo Jackson did the same thing with the Bucs. He had baseball to fall back on (and he was a great baseball player too).
Eli had the Manning name to make this happen. That carried weight.
Burrow, I just don't see it. I think the Bengals draft him and tell him to pound sand if he doesn't like it.
A couple of points where I disagree...
While Elway could have stayed with the Yankees (he was already in their minor league system) saying that he was "slated to start in RF in Yankee Stadium by the mid 1980s" is a HUGE stretch.
Elway had raw talent but he was not Bo Jackson, Deon Sanders or even Drew Henson. Elway was a good but not a great baseball prospect...and anyone who saw him play both sports knew that his future was in the NFL. In fact someone (Acorsi?) was quoted as saying something like..."He's lucky we didn't see him play baseball before we agreed to trade him."
As far as Burrow needing "gravitas to pull off a move like this"... that's just silly.
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Burrow is a Heisman Trophy winner and national champion, ANY NCAA player can simply decide that they're not going to a specific team and threaten to sit out the year. And when you're expected to be the #1 overall pick, you have leverage. You don't need gravitas.
I'll focus on the Elway thing first. Greg gave more context below. But per the discussion that he was going to be in right field. If you can watch the 30 for 30 about the 1983 draft (From Elway to Marino), they spent time specifically talking about his stint with the Yankees. We know George was huge about having big names/flashy players on the Yankees. And as a former football coach, George knew exactly what it meant to have the best QB prospect playing for the Yankees and a huge name like Elway.
Anyway, they recounted the story that Elway came to visit Yankee Stadium prior to the draft. It was a power move by Elway to show the Colts they'd better trade him. Elway was brought into George's office and they showed him a potential lineup for 1985/1986 and Elway in left field. Elway asked "who is Mattingly at first base?" And he was told, oh, he's in Columbus but he's going to be really good.
So the Yankees planned on him spending a couple of years in the minors and starting in the outfield.
As for the gravitas question. Yes, any player can sit out a season, but how many actually could and can afford to sit out? Elway had the Yankees. Bo had the Royals. Eli's family was rich and had significant pull in the NFL. Burrow is going to turn down millions to have in hand? I just don't see it.
Matt, you'll probably never read this because this thread has been over for a couple of days, but I thought I'd respond anyway.
I stated that Elway was a good, but not a great prospect and nothing I've read in this thread or elsewhere has convinced me otherwise.
Greg posted a quote from Elway's low-A-ball manager suggesting that he thought Elway "probably" would have been a guy who averaged 10-15 HR and 60-70 RBI, while you suggested that Elway would have been the Yank's starting RF by the mid-80s.
Dave Winfield was the starting RF for the Yanks from 84-88. Here are his HR/RBI numbers as the Yank's RF during that time:
'84: 19/100
'85: 26/114
'86: 24/104
'87: 27/95
'88: 25/107
We know that George loved having big name players, but I doubt he would have replaced Winfield with a RF who put up 10-15 HR and 60-70 RBI, nor would he have settled for any corner outfielder putting up pedestrian numbers like that for an extended number of years.
And let's not forget that this was a projection for a player in low-A ball. All you have to do is Google "MLB Draft" for almost any year to see a long list of first round picks who ended up having dissapointing careers... some who have never played a single game at the MLB level. (I'll bet most had A-ball managers who made great projections for them too.)
So to definitively state twice on this thread that Elway "was going to be in right field" (for the Yanks) based on Elway's 42 game, low A-ball career is nonsense.
Elway wouldn't have replaced Winfield and if somehow made it to the MLB level and put up his projected numbers, the Yanks would have traded him after a few years, just like they did with Steve Kemp.
Elway was a good (not great) baseball prospect who was also a superstar football prospect. No one thought he was going to choose baseball over football.