cutting Nate Solder

Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.

The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices.

The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.

Are you suggesting they cut Solder for a specific player that can take his place or just cutting him because he had a down season?

Who didn't have a down season last year on offense? After watching the 49ers running game...the traps, pulls, etc...and how that effected the play I'm convinced we simply had poor coaching.

I would be hesitant to cut anyone at this point without a better player to take their place. I believe that these coaches will get this team much improved fundamentally with better schemes by week 4ish. It won't happen overnight but Solder, Zietler, Hernandez and Barkley will benefit from Garrett and Kitchens and Colombo. You can't tell me they didn't become worse statistically because of talent alone...they were set up to fail.

In comment 14805941 rasbutant said:

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Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good. The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices. The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.

Zeitler has just as many whiff's and no one is calling for him to be cut.

In comment 14805933 djm said:

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Maybe he’s the 10th worst. Point is there are worse players than solder. If you cut him, you need a replacement and you’re also assuming he can’t bounce back in 2020.

And that said replacement will be an upgrade - major major if, especially with our track record both in FA and the draft.

In comment 14805880 Andy in Boston said:

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I realize this. But Solder would have to be moved to RT. I think its pretty clear he can't play LT.

Huh? You were talking about cutting him.

He isn't going anywhere this year. He didn't play well, but he also has a very sick child. I think we all should have a little empathy for his situation.

In comment 14805915 mavric said:

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Any LT taken in the draft is NOT ready to step in on day one. Furthermore, JJ loves Solder and Solder is way too expensive to cut and absorb the dead hit. Solder's young son underwent cancer treatment during the season and had a real negative effect on Nate. His head did not seem to be in the game and he didn't play like he has for the last decade. His son's cancer is presumably in remission now which should allow him to refocus and get his head back in the game. Coupled with JJ's faith in him and Garrett, Columbo, and Wilkerson working with him, we should see a big step in the right direction with Solder this coming season.

I'm not for cutting Solder, because there is no option right now. But lets be serious. There are three factors that determine how well a player performs in the NFL.
1. Talent
2. Scheme
3. Coaching.
Solder had talent, but has he lost the physical abilities needed for the position? Has he been playing in a scheme that requires different talents than he was in while with the Pats? And coaching. We can assume that in a career that has spanned more than a decade that he has been "coached up", a term that is highly overrated. If a player has lost his physical skills, or is in the wrong scheme, coaching won't make much of a difference, if any.

The only real question here is - was his performance in 2019 (and 2018) affected by injuries and/or his son's condition?

In comment 14805941 rasbutant said:

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Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.

No, it really wasn't. He was awful.

In comment 14805873 figgy2989 said:

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But Alex Karras passed in 2012.

He's still better than Solder.

And obviously draft or sign FA.

ankle surgery during spring training and his kid had medical issue. I think we just let the coaching staff handle this decision.

In comment 14805939 bc4life said:

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with no replacement on hand and the new staff and system have not even been implemented yet?

SUPPOSE to protect Jones ..... IJS

originally wanted to cut him despite the $13M in dead money for doing so, but now agree that it's a bad idea. But this is just another poor personnel move by DG. I do recall that Solder said he would take a pay cut to stay, so maybe that's a possibility.

In comment 14805927 UConn4523 said:

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The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA.

They save $13M by cutting him before his $3M roster bonus is due on March 18th. Which is a significant savings. Just because that savings happens to be divided between this year and next in terms of the cap, doesn't mean the Giants aren't saving the full $13M. And even if they were to spend top dollar for every free agent they target, they will not even come close to exceeding the cap in 2020. In fact, they will be rolling cap space over into 2021. And that's a good thing because the cap space will be more valuable next year when this year's crop of free agents go into the second year of their contracts (the second year of a long term contract almost always entails a greater cap hit than the first year of the contract).

When it comes to Solder the only consideration should be the dollar amount you put on his value to the team in 2020 (compared to the dollar value applied to anticipated OT free agents). If they think he has something left in the tank and won't be a liability, they should ask him to take an appropriate pay cut. If he declines, they should cut him, but tell him to keep in touch if he's unable to recoup that $13M on the open market. They can always re-sign him. Because as I've said repeatedly, the dead cap hit is money already spent and nothing is bringing it back. With $70-80M projected cap room, there is absolutely no reason to kick the dead money down the road.

In comment 14805873 figgy2989 said:

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But Alex Karras passed in 2012.

SMITHERS: Um, sir... I'm afraid all of those players have retired and, uh... passed on. In fact, your right-fielder has been dead for a hundred and thirty years.

We've done that before with guys who have underperformed. Our only leverage to get him to accept it is the threat of actually cutting him, but that threat is real, so we do have some leverage.

How savvy is Gettleman? It requires a confrontation I'm not sure he is willing to have.

but I don’t see any way they cut Solder before finding a viable replacement.

Judge and the new staff will likely give him a chance to rebound. The cap savings question isn’t a great argument either, we’ll have a lot of cap space without cutting him anyway, and there aren’t any blue chip LTs in free agency worth overpaying for.

I realize a lot of you guys muster up an unhealthy hatred of guys who underperform, but that doesn’t make doing mental gymnastics to justify a shortsighted move a worthwhile exercise.

Sign a tackle in free agency, and draft one who can hopefully project as future LT. Then by all means cut Solder next year.

In comment 14806011 Rico said:

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We've done that before with guys who have underperformed. Our only leverage to get him to accept it is the threat of actually cutting him, but that threat is real, so we do have some leverage. How savvy is Gettleman? It requires a confrontation I'm not sure he is willing to have.

Come on now...if Gettleman has proven anything in his career, it’s that he’s willing to confront and make harsh decisions with underperforming vets.

I don’t know if forcing him into a pay cut is an option (would be nice)...I just don’t want to see them push any more dead cap space out further on his deal with another restructure

It's less about the 6.5M you save this year, it's the clarity you gain about the 27M you free up over the next 2 years.

What if Solder puts in another equivalent year? The Giants will be in an equally unsure position in a year, with the option to again grossly overpay Solder.

Just a few not far-fetched, and in my view less risky options.

- Dennis Kelly, swing tackle, who has played really well subbing at RT & LT when the Titans big name tackles have been injured
- Cameron Flemming, swing tackle, who has played both sides and subbed well and has strongly been rumored as a cap casualty in Dal

Both players are competent, if not exciting options to bridge LT at a much lower cost than 27M overt the next 2 years.

In comment 14805999 Milton said:

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In comment 14805927 UConn4523 said: Quote: The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA. They save $13M by cutting him before his $3M roster bonus is due on March 18th.

This isn't correct. $13M is his dead cap number, independent of his roster bonus. His dead money escalates to $16M upon execution of his roster bonus on 3/18.

He's still carrying $8M for amortized signing bonus, plus an additional $5M from last year's restructure. That's the $13M, and it's unavoidable. The roster bonuses are $3M this year and $4M next year. Those are on top of the $13M in dead money that would be incurred by releasing or trading Solder this offseason.

Next year, the dead money entering the offseason will be $6.5M with the $4M roster bonus looming on top of that. That 2021 roster bonus is the most likely trigger for a release, assuming his play does not improve drastically this season.

Ain’t happening, bro. Don’t get your hopes up if you want this badly. Personally, I’m all excited about seeing what Marc Colombo can do for him and the others to make them better at their trade. If Marc thinks this guy is hopeless, then I’ll waive the white flag....but not until then. Don’t forget this Andy, he started in New England for how many years? Do you think BB would have allowed for that if he is as bad as you say he is?

before you get rid of what you have.Can the new staff get more out of him or create an offense that can work with him as the LT. When you have a guy struggling you have to provide help with chips, double teams, rollouts or play action/screens to slow the opponent down.

The OL as a whole did not function well. The push up the middle doesn't give the tackles the ability to ride guys out of the play because the QB can't step up. there is a lot more to it than he just didnt play well. the unit as a whole needs to be fixed, Hernandez hasnt played well either ad people opverrate his play based on his draft position.

Many of us don't know what to look for when evaluation OL. Columbo has a big job to do and I suspect Solder will be part of this team in 2020.

In comment 14805913 Greg from LI said:

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But it probably won't be this year.

Actually, you can (and will) wait.

they can ask him to take a paycut but I'm approaching this with just the facts that we know - his cost and how we would be replacing him (along with that cost). I highly doubt he's agreeing to a cut and I don't want to push more guaranteed money into 2021.

I don't know who's figures are 100% correct but I just don't see the upside in cutting him this year regardless. It would have to take Judge and Co thinking he's completely toast which I can't see them possibly knowing until camp - and then its too late to find his replacement unless its already on the roster (which could be the case).

being a constant problem with Giants. I would love to just see them do what the Cowboys did and just load up on 1st rd OL studs...

Biggest problem with that solution - I don't think there's a blue chip OL in this year's draft.

The dead cap hit isn't a concern. Look at his contract value in totality and ask yourself whether he's worth it based on that number (currently $40M for the next two seasons).

I am actually worried that Solder is completely shot, partly for very understandable personal reasons (his child), and really can't play at a starting level any more.

much more tolerable.

I think he's here for next year - but the Giants better have a plan for replacing him next season.

To be fair to DG - Solder was the only bad contract.

In comment 14806089 UConn4523 said:

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It would have to take Judge and Co thinking he's completely toast which I can't see them possibly knowing until camp - and then its too late to find his replacement unless its already on the roster (which could be the case).

The Giants can go to the UFA market and shop for a LT who projects to be healthier, cheaper, and more productive.

The new staff has access to his medical records and the tape of his performance the last 2 years.

If they find a player who matches that criteria, they can cut Solder.

Every cut is a calculated risk for this staff, having not been here to evaluate first hand last year. But they do have to make them, and don't get the benefit of a try out for everyone.

In comment 14806057 Gatorade Dunk said:

Quote:

In comment 14805999 Milton said: Quote: In comment 14805927 UConn4523 said: Quote: The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA. They save $13M by cutting him before his $3M roster bonus is due on March 18th. This isn't correct. $13M is his dead cap number, independent of his roster bonus. His dead money escalates to $16M upon execution of his roster bonus on 3/18.

It would be pretty damn stupid to give him his $3M roster bonus and then cut him. I'm not sure what you think is incorrect about what I wrote but I clearly state that if they are going to cut him it needs to be before March 18th. The $13M that they save is the $3M roster bonus, the $100K workout bonus, and the $9.9M in salary. It's just a coincidence that the $13M potential dead cap hit and the $13M in 2020 compensation is the same number. Maybe that's where the confusion is coming from on your part.

The juice isn't worth the squeeze. The cap savings aren't significant enough this season to cut him.

In comment 14806111 Dnew15 said:

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much more tolerable.

This is not true. Please take the time to read my 12PM post. Whether the dead cap hit is $13M this year or is instead divided between $6.5M this year and $6.5M next year makes no difference whatsoever. The Giants won't come close to maxing out their cap dollars in 2020 and will be rolling cap room into 2021 to help pay for the second year on all the contracts that are signed this year.

In comment 14806132 Torrag said:

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The juice isn't worth the squeeze. The cap savings aren't significant enough this season to cut him.

They are if Solder is operating as a turnstile and getting your young QB killed. Of course, priority number 1 is finding an actual center who can identify simple stunts and call out protections. Not only can't Halapio block, but he isn't a true center and therefore can't identify simple stunts. The OL needs to operate as a unit, and it is nearly impossible to do that without a real center.

every attempt should be made to ensure that he plays a minimal number of downs in 2020.

Best case scenario - the Giants find two tackles and he's a reserve. Worst case, he's manning the right side. Absolute worst case, he's back on the blindside again.

In comment 14806132 Torrag said:

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The juice isn't worth the squeeze. The cap savings aren't significant enough this season to cut him.

The surest road to cap hell is to believe you can spend $13M on a liability just because you happen have loads of cap room in one particular year. They won't always have $70 or $80M in cap room.

He's either worth $13M or he isn't. It's a new system anyway so think of him like you'd think of any other OL free agent. Put a price on his value and stick with it. If it's the right price, the cap ramifications will take care of themselves. If it's the wrong price, they will pay for it down the road. That's what happens when good money chases bad money. You just exacerbate the problem.

In comment 14806127 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 14806089 UConn4523 said: Quote: It would have to take Judge and Co thinking he's completely toast which I can't see them possibly knowing until camp - and then its too late to find his replacement unless its already on the roster (which could be the case). The Giants can go to the UFA market and shop for a LT who projects to be healthier, cheaper, and more productive. The new staff has access to his medical records and the tape of his performance the last 2 years. If they find a player who matches that criteria, they can cut Solder. Every cut is a calculated risk for this staff, having not been here to evaluate first hand last year. But they do have to make them, and don't get the benefit of a try out for everyone.

His roster bonus is due the same day FA begins - there's no guarantee we get our FA target.

I'm all for an upgrade however the Giants see fit, I just don't think that's happening this offseason unless we are tacking a Tackle at 4.

In comment 14806167 UConn4523 said:

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His roster bonus is due the same day FA begins - there's no guarantee we get our FA target.

There's the three day tampering window right before free agency, so they should have a pretty good idea.

STA

when we don't cut Solder, don't address LT in the offseason, and then everyone will start posting how they expect a big comeback year from Solder.

In comment 14805907 Jay on the Island said:
[quote] I am not suggesting he will be great but I think they he will be a league average LT. Let’s just hope there is an early draft pick as insurance. [/quot.
At this point in his career he shouldn’t need much coaching

In comment 14806097 Dnew15 said:

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being a constant problem with Giants. I would love to just see them do what the Cowboys did and just load up on 1st rd OL studs... Biggest problem with that solution - I don't think there's a blue chip OL in this year's draft.

We tried that, sort of. 2 first round picks and a high 2nd round pick. Too bad they turned into Ereck Flowers, Justin Pugh, and Weston Richburg.

Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.

The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices.

The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.


Zeitler has just as many whiff's and no one is calling for him to be cut.
------------------------------------------------------
But this post above is the dumbest fucking post ive seen in a while, Are you Nate Solder's brother? He was the worst LT in the NFL every metric and analysis says so. He was absolutely horrendous. I agree he can have a bounce back especially if we get A LT and he plays RT. Much better coaching and his son's horrible disease not on his head but he was the worst LT or bottom 5 LT in the NFL and he personally almost got DJ killed. For you to say he wasn't that bad...you should have your posting rights taken away for a week. Just say anything else next time..it will be smarter then saying Solder wasn't that bad.

In comment 14805960 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 14805941 rasbutant said: Quote: Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good. No, it really wasn't. He was awful.

Solder was just too slow off the snap. Quick players made him look foolish.

His presence in the locker sends a powerful message to the team that you can suck, make millions and get on with your life with no repercussions.

How can the Giants actually turn things around when they hang to overpriced garbage. If management isn't accountable for their mistakes, players wont be either

in any meaningful fashion is really just wishful thinking. The economics point to him staying on the roster for one more year but he is no longer a dependable starter whatsoever.

It’s up to DG to ensure he has better/other alternatives at Tackle. Solder is best shown on the roster as a reserve, despite his pay.

Otherwise DG is doubling down on stupidity with this bad signing.

debacle just pisses me off more than anything else from the past couple years of Giants ineptitude. Maybe its good I'm not the GM because you can't bring emotions into it, but I'll be damned if I want to watch Solder earn his historic contract while he is putting Jones on his ass all game for another year. Based on the last two seasons, finding a viable replacement should not be hard.

He also played with neck, back and elbow injuries virtually all season long and stepped up and played through it all.

In comment 14805883 George from PA said:

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No one could have his mind into his work....with his boy fighting for.his life, imo. Beside, with the NE connection with the coaches and the hugh cap hit... He gets another year

Pio was a much bigger problem at C than Hernandez was at LG. And that issue kept Daniel from stepping up into the pocket which causes a ton of backdoor chops on the QB.


In comment 14806073 Rudy5757 said:

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before you get rid of what you have.Can the new staff get more out of him or create an offense that can work with him as the LT. When you have a guy struggling you have to provide help with chips, double teams, rollouts or play action/screens to slow the opponent down. The OL as a whole did not function well. The push up the middle doesn't give the tackles the ability to ride guys out of the play because the QB can't step up. there is a lot more to it than he just didnt play well. the unit as a whole needs to be fixed, Hernandez hasnt played well either ad people opverrate his play based on his draft position. Many of us don't know what to look for when evaluation OL. Columbo has a big job to do and I suspect Solder will be part of this team in 2020.

In comment 14805941 rasbutant said:

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Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good. The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices. The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.

Exactly, he's nowhere near the worst starting LT of 2019. That is a BBI-ism that has no basis in truth. Watch other teams. Solder wasn't great but that's a position that has a lot of teams wanting improvement.

The cheerleader fans again trying to change the narrative. It doesn't make a difference if SOlder was worst or 2nd worst etc. He was bad. Unaccpetably so. Yet they'll try to change to change the narrative that because he wasn't the worst, it meant he was pretty good.

He was a bad LT that is aging causing his performance to go in the wrong direction. The quicker they get a replacement at LT the better for a rebuilding team. They just have so many holes though. everything depends on what they are going to do in FA.

In comment 14806418 VinegarPeppers said:

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He also played with neck, back and elbow injuries virtually all season long and stepped up and played through it all. In comment 14805883 George from PA said: Quote:

Yay!! Dave Gettlemen brought in an aging LT who is getting more injury prone on a rebuilding team! (sarcasm)

But it's not DG's fault or Nate Solder's fault. It's the coaching. After all, why should anyone expect an aging player to become more injury prone? (sarcasm)

And -- atta boy that he played hard while hurt. OFC no other player in the history of the NFL played hard while being hurt and did well. (sarcasm)

So the heck with performance. YAaay team he played hard!!! (sarcasm)

Has a very sick child and it is why he signed with NYG, doctors. If DG tells him that he will cut him, I’m sure Solder would restructure so he remains.