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cutting Nate Solder

Andy in Boston : 2/7/2020 10:34 am
I realize the dead money would be huge if they cut him. And he's certainly a quality human.
But we're talking about possibly the worst starting left tackle in the league in 2019. He turns 33 in April.
Should they just cut their losses and cut him? I think so.
Start fresh....sign Jack Conklin, Alex Karras in the offseason. Draft a left tackle in April. Thoughts?
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Hate to tell you this  
figgy2989 : 2/7/2020 10:36 am : link
But Alex Karras passed in 2012.

It's pretty simple  
JonC : 2/7/2020 10:37 am : link
Conklin is a RT.

A GM worth his salt can't cut his LT before he's got a replacement, and he can't wait until the draft to TRY and get his LT. You're basically doubling down on the weak hand.
RE: Hate to tell you this  
Andy in Boston : 2/7/2020 10:39 am : link
In comment 14805873 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
But Alex Karras passed in 2012.



sorry....I meant Ted Karras.
RE: It's pretty simple  
Andy in Boston : 2/7/2020 10:40 am : link
In comment 14805876 JonC said:
Quote:
Conklin is a RT.

A GM worth his salt can't cut his LT before he's got a replacement, and he can't wait until the draft to TRY and get his LT. You're basically doubling down on the weak hand.


I realize this. But Solder would have to be moved to RT. I think its pretty clear he can't play LT.
RE: RE: It's pretty simple  
Andy in Boston : 2/7/2020 10:41 am : link
In comment 14805880 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
In comment 14805876 JonC said:


Quote:


Conklin is a RT.

A GM worth his salt can't cut his LT before he's got a replacement, and he can't wait until the draft to TRY and get his LT. You're basically doubling down on the weak hand.



I realize this. But Solder would have to be moved to RT. I think its pretty clear he can't play LT.


only other idea would by to try to trade a mid to late round pick to another team that has a really good backup LT. Don't give up too much for him...but a serviceable LT than can compete with the high draft pick.
I cut him a break...due to his son cancer treatment  
George from PA : 2/7/2020 10:41 am : link
No one could have his mind into his work....with his boy fighting for.his life, imo.

Beside, with the NE connection with the coaches and the hugh cap hit...

He gets another year
I suspect they won't agree with you on Solder  
JonC : 2/7/2020 10:41 am : link
and they've got a better shot of finding a RT than a LT, unless they've already decided they're going OT at #4 and sink or swim with said prospect.
What is the point of cutting him?  
robbieballs2003 : 2/7/2020 10:45 am : link
That has to be answered and isn't. Just getting rid of a guy to get rid of him doesn't make sense.

1. Is it because he is a poor locker room guy? No.

2. Is it because he cannot play anymore? Maybe but then you need to have a replacement which we do not have and this can blend with #3.

3. Can we find his replacement for the salary cap savings? This is a hard one to anwer.

4. Is there a benefit of cutting him now as opposed to later in the year or next year?

5. Does he have trade value? I think the answer to this is yes. I don't think it is much but there were rumors last year that teams were interested in him and OL are at a premium.

6. Is he willing to take a pay cut? He said he is so this is the most logical solution. He takes a pay cut and earns his spot. If he doesn't then he may have even more value in a trade. We'll eat the dead money and the new team only has to worry about his base salary and any bonuses not currently paid.
We should not cut Solder  
twostepgiants : 2/7/2020 10:45 am : link
Solder is a NE guy who now has a NE coach who he understands and who understands what Solder can and cannot do and how to better utilize him

We now have a Garrett/Columbo combo that has proven solid for OL

Solder was terrible under a regime that seemed to get the worst out of everyone

Given the investment in him. The Giants need to see if he can turn it around under a new staff thats better suited for him
Solder will be back for one more season.  
Jay on the Island : 2/7/2020 10:50 am : link
In free agency the Giants sign RT Daryl Williams and C Ted Karras to 2 year deals and G/C Stefen Wisniewski to a 1 year deal.

This is what I hope happens in April. Giants trade down with SD in round 1 acquiring another 2nd. They then take and OT Jedrick Wills at 6 and OT Matt Peart in round 4.

LT Wills/Solder
LG Hernandez
C Karras/Wisniewski
RG Zeitler/Gates
RT Williams/Peart
Cutting someone  
pjcas18 : 2/7/2020 10:51 am : link
that doesn't make financial sense should only be done for extreme reasons, Solder doesn't have to start, and ideally if the Giants can get someone better (at either tackle) Solder should be depth until it makes financial sense to cut him.
I expect Solder to play better with a legit OL coach  
Jay on the Island : 2/7/2020 10:53 am : link
I am not suggesting he will be great but I think they he will be a league average LT. Let’s just hope there is an early draft pick as insurance.
Solder's dead money is too great  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2020 10:56 am : link
to cut in 2020. If we cut him before the draft we virtually lock ourselves into OT at 4 and probably another OT in round 2. Which might be a good strategy anyway but there's no reason to do that knowing we HAVE to do both.

Solder might also bounce back. We have absolutely no idea if his personal situation with his son is under control, or maybe he begins the season with a new regiment and different way to handle football and personal life. We also had every single member of the line regress in 2019 so I'm putting a lot of that on the coaches as well.

I'm guessing there will be a higher comfort level with Judge and better coaching all around. No reason to go into the season with yet another hole to fill.
I can't wait until he's off the team  
Greg from LI : 2/7/2020 10:58 am : link
But it probably won't be this year.
Solder is staying  
mavric : 2/7/2020 10:59 am : link
Any LT taken in the draft is NOT ready to step in on day one. Furthermore, JJ loves Solder and Solder is way too expensive to cut and absorb the dead hit.

Solder's young son underwent cancer treatment during the season and had a real negative effect on Nate. His head did not seem to be in the game and he didn't play like he has for the last decade. His son's cancer is presumably in remission now which should allow him to refocus and get his head back in the game. Coupled with JJ's faith in him and Garrett, Columbo, and Wilkerson working with him, we should see a big step in the right direction with Solder this coming season.
what is the benefits of cutting him?  
larryflower37 : 2/7/2020 10:59 am : link
everyone makes a good case on why to keep him which I strongly agree with.

for a minimal cap savings this season when we are flush with cash?

there should be like a 10 minute cooling off period when you start a thread.
that keeps asking you to read what are posting and does this make sense
it's premature to cut him  
GiantsFan84 : 2/7/2020 11:04 am : link
let's see what happens in the draft first. if they draft his replacement perhaps they can swing a trade and move him, or then can outright cut him assuming they have the cap space. and if not they will just cut him next year.
...  
christian : 2/7/2020 11:07 am : link
Solder has been bad both years he was here. He's also reportedly been banged up both years.

A few factors to consider:

- After spending his career under arguably the best HC of all time and a great OL coach, is it more likely Solder forget how to play fundamentally sound football, or in year 8 & 9 of his career he was starting to break down?

- In year 10 of his NFL career are his health, body, and skill likely to rebound after 2 down years?

- In his 10th or 11th year of his NFL career is he likely to move to a new position he's never played professionally and succeed?

- Is it more likely he has a renaissance or more likely he's at the end of his career?
RE: what is the benefits of cutting him?  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2020 11:08 am : link
In comment 14805917 larryflower37 said:
Quote:
everyone makes a good case on why to keep him which I strongly agree with.

for a minimal cap savings this season when we are flush with cash?

there should be like a 10 minute cooling off period when you start a thread.
that keeps asking you to read what are posting and does this make sense


There aren't any other than a fan getting a pound of flesh. The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA. And of the top tier guys one is a RT anyway.

Too many unknowns at this point in time. Things will look a lot different post draft but by then Free Agency likely has sorted out all of the big names and you are left with the scrap heap or the vets waiting for an injury to sign - not a good strategy to rely on.
I know there are many "fire DG" people here..  
EricJ : 2/7/2020 11:09 am : link
and although I am not in love with everything he has done, I am not at the point where we should fire him.

That said, if he cut Solder today... then I would be with the others who thinks he should be fired.

It is not easy to find a starting offensive lineman in this league. You do NOT cut until you have effectively replaced.

All of us also unanimously agreed that the coaching here has been horrible. We have a new OL coach who has been successful elsewhere. We need to see what this guy can do with Solder and the others.

This also does not mean DG stops trying to find a replacement.
Cutting him doesn't make much sense.  
AdamBrag : 2/7/2020 11:13 am : link
Creating $6m in cap space this year isn't that big a help when we have so much cap space.

I think the two options are (1) keep him this year and cut him next year (2) restructure his contract, pay him less this year, but guarantee more next year.

It's not ideal, but I think (1) is the best option. Again, we don't need all the cap space we have this year and even if we can lower his cap hit to $13m-$15m a year for two years, that doesn't seem great given his play.
Maybe he’s the worst starting LT in football  
djm : 2/7/2020 11:15 am : link
Maybe he’s the 10th worst. Point is there are worse players than solder. If you cut him, you need a replacement and you’re also assuming he can’t bounce back in 2020.
It’s widely considered on BBI  
Jarvis : 2/7/2020 11:19 am : link
That we had a terrible coaching staff, specifically at o-line and that we brought in good offensive coaches. In addition as mentioned above Solder had personal issues going on that would wreck almost any person. Finally, we have no replacement and we don’t save much in cap space by cutting him. Solder should definitely get another year.
cut the guy who protects Jones  
bc4life : 2/7/2020 11:21 am : link
with no replacement on hand and the new staff and system have not even been implemented yet?
Solder wasn't even that bad this year.  
rasbutant : 2/7/2020 11:23 am : link
Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.

The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices.

The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.

Andy...  
Doug in MA : 2/7/2020 11:25 am : link
Are you suggesting they cut Solder for a specific player that can take his place or just cutting him because he had a down season?

Who didn't have a down season last year on offense? After watching the 49ers running game...the traps, pulls, etc...and how that effected the play I'm convinced we simply had poor coaching.

I would be hesitant to cut anyone at this point without a better player to take their place. I believe that these coaches will get this team much improved fundamentally with better schemes by week 4ish. It won't happen overnight but Solder, Zietler, Hernandez and Barkley will benefit from Garrett and Kitchens and Colombo. You can't tell me they didn't become worse statistically because of talent alone...they were set up to fail.
RE: Solder wasn't even that bad this year.  
rasbutant : 2/7/2020 11:26 am : link
In comment 14805941 rasbutant said:
Quote:
Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.

The classic do 9 things right and no one notices, but do 1 wrong and everyone notices.

The criticism is warranty only because of the contract. He's a top 2/3 OT being paid as the best in the league. But that is sunk cost now, you don't throw away a 2/3rd OT for nothing.


Zeitler has just as many whiff's and no one is calling for him to be cut.
RE: Maybe he’s the worst starting LT in football  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2020 11:26 am : link
In comment 14805933 djm said:
Quote:
Maybe he’s the 10th worst. Point is there are worse players than solder. If you cut him, you need a replacement and you’re also assuming he can’t bounce back in 2020.


And that said replacement will be an upgrade - major major if, especially with our track record both in FA and the draft.
RE: RE: It's pretty simple  
Section331 : 2/7/2020 11:31 am : link
In comment 14805880 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:

I realize this. But Solder would have to be moved to RT. I think its pretty clear he can't play LT.


Huh? You were talking about cutting him.

He isn't going anywhere this year. He didn't play well, but he also has a very sick child. I think we all should have a little empathy for his situation.
RE: Solder is staying  
k2tampa : 2/7/2020 11:33 am : link
In comment 14805915 mavric said:
Quote:
Any LT taken in the draft is NOT ready to step in on day one. Furthermore, JJ loves Solder and Solder is way too expensive to cut and absorb the dead hit.

Solder's young son underwent cancer treatment during the season and had a real negative effect on Nate. His head did not seem to be in the game and he didn't play like he has for the last decade. His son's cancer is presumably in remission now which should allow him to refocus and get his head back in the game. Coupled with JJ's faith in him and Garrett, Columbo, and Wilkerson working with him, we should see a big step in the right direction with Solder this coming season.


I'm not for cutting Solder, because there is no option right now. But lets be serious. There are three factors that determine how well a player performs in the NFL.
1. Talent
2. Scheme
3. Coaching.
Solder had talent, but has he lost the physical abilities needed for the position? Has he been playing in a scheme that requires different talents than he was in while with the Pats? And coaching. We can assume that in a career that has spanned more than a decade that he has been "coached up", a term that is highly overrated. If a player has lost his physical skills, or is in the wrong scheme, coaching won't make much of a difference, if any.

The only real question here is - was his performance in 2019 (and 2018) affected by injuries and/or his son's condition?
RE: Solder wasn't even that bad this year.  
Greg from LI : 2/7/2020 11:36 am : link
In comment 14805941 rasbutant said:
Quote:
Yah he had a few obvious whiff's the almost got the QB killed, but the vast majority of his play was good.


No, it really wasn't. He was awful.
RE: Hate to tell you this  
BMac : 2/7/2020 11:38 am : link
In comment 14805873 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
But Alex Karras passed in 2012.


He's still better than Solder.
Why dont we try him guard?  
Rolyrock : 2/7/2020 11:39 am : link
And obviously draft or sign FA.
He came off  
mdthedream : 2/7/2020 11:42 am : link
ankle surgery during spring training and his kid had medical issue. I think we just let the coaching staff handle this decision.
RE: cut the guy who protects Jones  
MotownGIANTS : 2/7/2020 11:53 am : link
In comment 14805939 bc4life said:
Quote:
with no replacement on hand and the new staff and system have not even been implemented yet?


SUPPOSE to protect Jones ..... IJS
I  
AcidTest : 2/7/2020 11:56 am : link
originally wanted to cut him despite the $13M in dead money for doing so, but now agree that it's a bad idea. But this is just another poor personnel move by DG. I do recall that Solder said he would take a pay cut to stay, so maybe that's a possibility.
RE: RE: what is the benefits of cutting him?  
Milton : 2/7/2020 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14805927 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA.
They save $13M by cutting him before his $3M roster bonus is due on March 18th. Which is a significant savings. Just because that savings happens to be divided between this year and next in terms of the cap, doesn't mean the Giants aren't saving the full $13M. And even if they were to spend top dollar for every free agent they target, they will not even come close to exceeding the cap in 2020. In fact, they will be rolling cap space over into 2021. And that's a good thing because the cap space will be more valuable next year when this year's crop of free agents go into the second year of their contracts (the second year of a long term contract almost always entails a greater cap hit than the first year of the contract).

When it comes to Solder the only consideration should be the dollar amount you put on his value to the team in 2020 (compared to the dollar value applied to anticipated OT free agents). If they think he has something left in the tank and won't be a liability, they should ask him to take an appropriate pay cut. If he declines, they should cut him, but tell him to keep in touch if he's unable to recoup that $13M on the open market. They can always re-sign him. Because as I've said repeatedly, the dead cap hit is money already spent and nothing is bringing it back. With $70-80M projected cap room, there is absolutely no reason to kick the dead money down the road.
RE: Hate to tell you this  
Leg of Theismann : 2/7/2020 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14805873 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
But Alex Karras passed in 2012.


SMITHERS: Um, sir... I'm afraid all of those players have retired and, uh... passed on. In fact, your right-fielder has been dead for a hundred and thirty years.
How about a pay cut?  
Rico : 2/7/2020 12:14 pm : link
We've done that before with guys who have underperformed. Our only leverage to get him to accept it is the threat of actually cutting him, but that threat is real, so we do have some leverage.

How savvy is Gettleman? It requires a confrontation I'm not sure he is willing to have.
We all know the Giants need serious upgrade to both tackle spots  
mfsd : 2/7/2020 12:19 pm : link
but I don’t see any way they cut Solder before finding a viable replacement.

Judge and the new staff will likely give him a chance to rebound. The cap savings question isn’t a great argument either, we’ll have a lot of cap space without cutting him anyway, and there aren’t any blue chip LTs in free agency worth overpaying for.

I realize a lot of you guys muster up an unhealthy hatred of guys who underperform, but that doesn’t make doing mental gymnastics to justify a shortsighted move a worthwhile exercise.

Sign a tackle in free agency, and draft one who can hopefully project as future LT. Then by all means cut Solder next year.
RE: How about a pay cut?  
mfsd : 2/7/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14806011 Rico said:
Quote:
We've done that before with guys who have underperformed. Our only leverage to get him to accept it is the threat of actually cutting him, but that threat is real, so we do have some leverage.

How savvy is Gettleman? It requires a confrontation I'm not sure he is willing to have.


Come on now...if Gettleman has proven anything in his career, it’s that he’s willing to confront and make harsh decisions with underperforming vets.

I don’t know if forcing him into a pay cut is an option (would be nice)...I just don’t want to see them push any more dead cap space out further on his deal with another restructure
...  
christian : 2/7/2020 12:35 pm : link
It's less about the 6.5M you save this year, it's the clarity you gain about the 27M you free up over the next 2 years.

What if Solder puts in another equivalent year? The Giants will be in an equally unsure position in a year, with the option to again grossly overpay Solder.

Just a few not far-fetched, and in my view less risky options.

- Dennis Kelly, swing tackle, who has played really well subbing at RT & LT when the Titans big name tackles have been injured
- Cameron Flemming, swing tackle, who has played both sides and subbed well and has strongly been rumored as a cap casualty in Dal

Both players are competent, if not exciting options to bridge LT at a much lower cost than 27M overt the next 2 years.
RE: RE: RE: what is the benefits of cutting him?  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/7/2020 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14805999 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14805927 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


The $6.5m savings isn't enough to bring in even a mid-tier FA Tackle let alone a top tier FA.

They save $13M by cutting him before his $3M roster bonus is due on March 18th.

This isn't correct. $13M is his dead cap number, independent of his roster bonus. His dead money escalates to $16M upon execution of his roster bonus on 3/18.

He's still carrying $8M for amortized signing bonus, plus an additional $5M from last year's restructure. That's the $13M, and it's unavoidable. The roster bonuses are $3M this year and $4M next year. Those are on top of the $13M in dead money that would be incurred by releasing or trading Solder this offseason.

Next year, the dead money entering the offseason will be $6.5M with the $4M roster bonus looming on top of that. That 2021 roster bonus is the most likely trigger for a release, assuming his play does not improve drastically this season.
Andy  
5BowlsSoon : 2/7/2020 12:49 pm : link
Ain’t happening, bro. Don’t get your hopes up if you want this badly. Personally, I’m all excited about seeing what Marc Colombo can do for him and the others to make them better at their trade. If Marc thinks this guy is hopeless, then I’ll waive the white flag....but not until then. Don’t forget this Andy, he started in New England for how many years? Do you think BB would have allowed for that if he is as bad as you say he is?
You have to have replacements  
Rudy5757 : 2/7/2020 12:55 pm : link
before you get rid of what you have.Can the new staff get more out of him or create an offense that can work with him as the LT. When you have a guy struggling you have to provide help with chips, double teams, rollouts or play action/screens to slow the opponent down.

The OL as a whole did not function well. The push up the middle doesn't give the tackles the ability to ride guys out of the play because the QB can't step up. there is a lot more to it than he just didnt play well. the unit as a whole needs to be fixed, Hernandez hasnt played well either ad people opverrate his play based on his draft position.

Many of us don't know what to look for when evaluation OL. Columbo has a big job to do and I suspect Solder will be part of this team in 2020.
RE: I can't wait until he's off the team  
Alan in Toledo : 2/7/2020 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14805913 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But it probably won't be this year.


Actually, you can (and will) wait.
Milton  
UConn4523 : 2/7/2020 1:15 pm : link
they can ask him to take a paycut but I'm approaching this with just the facts that we know - his cost and how we would be replacing him (along with that cost). I highly doubt he's agreeing to a cut and I don't want to push more guaranteed money into 2021.

I don't know who's figures are 100% correct but I just don't see the upside in cutting him this year regardless. It would have to take Judge and Co thinking he's completely toast which I can't see them possibly knowing until camp - and then its too late to find his replacement unless its already on the roster (which could be the case).
I'm tired of OL  
Dnew15 : 2/7/2020 1:19 pm : link
being a constant problem with Giants. I would love to just see them do what the Cowboys did and just load up on 1st rd OL studs...

Biggest problem with that solution - I don't think there's a blue chip OL in this year's draft.
Milton's approach is absolutely correct  
cosmicj : 2/7/2020 1:21 pm : link
The dead cap hit isn't a concern. Look at his contract value in totality and ask yourself whether he's worth it based on that number (currently $40M for the next two seasons).

I am actually worried that Solder is completely shot, partly for very understandable personal reasons (his child), and really can't play at a starting level any more.
Next year the dead money hit is  
Dnew15 : 2/7/2020 1:24 pm : link
much more tolerable.

I think he's here for next year - but the Giants better have a plan for replacing him next season.

To be fair to DG - Solder was the only bad contract.
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