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Pat Kirwan Interview on Giants Huddle

nyjuggernaut2 : 2/7/2020 8:56 pm
Seems very high on Joe Judge, and also loves the Jason Garrett hire and what he means to Daniel Jonesí development. He also makes some good points on the Giants upcoming free agency, how they need to focus on keeping the team young and building not only for next year, but for the next 4-5 years. He thinks signing guys coming off their first contracts (25-27 year olds) is what Gettlemen and Co should be looking at.

Itís a great listen if you have some time.
Link - ( New Window )
Almost always  
Big Blue '56 : 2/7/2020 8:58 pm : link
agree with Patís takes. One of the few guys I respect a great deal.
PK is the man.  
Racer : 2/7/2020 9:08 pm : link
Nobody spends more time trying to educate all of us on how things work at all levels of this sport, and few seem to realize he researches 80% of what we hear on the "NFL today" every Sunday on CBS.

Don't always agree with his NYG takes, but the stories he tells about his coaching, scouting, front-office and even youth football leadership give some incredible insight.

RE: Almost always  
djm : 2/7/2020 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14806435 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
agree with Patís takes. One of the few guys I respect a great deal.



Kirwin is the best. I basically treat his overall takes on everything as gospel.
Kirwan  
djm : 2/7/2020 9:13 pm : link
.
Yannick Ngakoue  
Rjanyg : 2/7/2020 9:38 pm : link
Is young. Makes sense
Very good listen  
mfsd : 2/7/2020 9:39 pm : link
thanks for posting
RE: Yannick Ngakoue  
nyjuggernaut2 : 2/7/2020 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14806444 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
Is young. Makes sense


Another guy that comes to mind is Blake Martinez, who is only 26. Especially is they release Ogletree. Iíd also like the Giants to take a look at Connor McGovern, the center from Denver. Young player who really came into his own last season in Denver. Heís only 26 too.
Kirwan is great.  
giantsfaninphilly : 2/7/2020 11:04 pm : link
I think he's the best analyst on Sirius/XM.
Jordan Lucas  
Mixon123 : 2/7/2020 11:19 pm : link
From KC would interest me. Good special teams player, strong safety only 26 years old. Local player, whom we worked out at local pro day prior to his draft. Coming off a one year tender from KC, not sure they will keep hi, with some of the contracts they will have coming up
Only  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/7/2020 11:35 pm : link
thing where is is off is guys coming off of their first contact are not going to be 25 years old. They are almost always 27 or 28...26 if you are lucky. I don't know why he mentioned 25 a couple of times.
RE: Only  
nyjuggernaut2 : 2/7/2020 11:53 pm : link
In comment 14806476 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
thing where is is off is guys coming off of their first contact are not going to be 25 years old. They are almost always 27 or 28...26 if you are lucky. I don't know why he mentioned 25 a couple of times.


Normally thatís the case, but this upcoming FA class has quite a bit of high quality players that could be available and are only 25-26 years old:

25 year olds - Ngakoue, Austin Hooper, Hunter Henry, Justin Simmons

26 year olds - Corey Littleton, Blake Martinez, Arik Armstead, Jameis Winston, Derek Henry, Dante Fowler, Connor McGovern, DJ Humphries, Leonard Williams

Granted if these guys end up hitting the market next month and donít get re-signed/tagged before then.
the 2 most talked about UFAs on BBI are 25 (Ngakoue & Conklin)  
Eric on Li : 2/7/2020 11:55 pm : link
Actually Ngakoue is 24 (turning 25 in March). Hunter Henry and kind of our own Leonard Williams are both 25. A bunch of others are 26 (Simmons, Bradberry, Schobert, Littleton). That's a relatively sizable pool of targets in the age 25-26 range.
....  
BleedBlue : 2/8/2020 12:10 am : link
judon and littleton

go OL OL OL in draft is possible

OR

judon and conklin

and go OL and ILB in draft
ILB Nick Kwiatkoski is 26 (27 in May).  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 7:58 am : link
He's on top of my free agent wish list.

C/OG Ted Karras is 26 (27 in March). He's number two.

FS Anthony Harris is 28 (29 in October). He's number three.

I'm not as high on Jack Conklin as are a lot of posters (and I'm the guy who started a thread with "Give Me Jack Conklin or Give Me Death!" prior to the 2016 draft). However, if the Giants feel he's worth the risk and they can swing a deal for him, so be it. It's not like they don't need an RT.
Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
LBH15 : 2/8/2020 8:21 am : link
in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?
RE: Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 9:05 am : link
In comment 14806554 LBH15 said:
Quote:
in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?


Good question. I don't see the Giants making a move for a free agent TE. They've got bigger fish to fry. You never know, though, but I'd still say the odds were against it.

As for the draft, I'd say there was a good possibility if they were able to swing a trade for Engram, but if not, and already short one day two pick thanks to the Williams trade, maybe they take a late-round flyer on someone, maybe sign a UDFA or maybe they pin their hopes on the UDFA's they already have, Dickerson and Conrad, along with Engram and Smith. Maybe Kitchens can do something with them.
Austin Hooper has a good game and based on longer term  
LBH15 : 2/8/2020 9:26 am : link
plans with Engram he could be a nice get.

As for LB the guy from Cleveland Joe Schobert (spelling?) is the type I would like to the team add in free agency.
RE: Only  
WillVAB : 2/8/2020 9:29 am : link
In comment 14806476 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
thing where is is off is guys coming off of their first contact are not going to be 25 years old. They are almost always 27 or 28...26 if you are lucky. I don't know why he mentioned 25 a couple of times.


Conklin turns 26 in August.
Kirwan is right  
Jay on the Island : 2/8/2020 9:46 am : link
The Giants followed this strategy in 2005 when they signed Plax, Pierce, and McKenzie.
RE: Austin Hooper has a good game and based on longer term  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 9:48 am : link
In comment 14806579 LBH15 said:
Quote:
plans with Engram he could be a nice get.

As for LB the guy from Cleveland Joe Schobert (spelling?) is the type I would like to the team add in free agency.


Spotrac.com estimates Hooper's value at $9.9 million per year/5 yrs, $49,923,499. That's a lot to invest for a team that has a lot of holes to fill, and that's probably just a starting point.

At ILB, I prefer Kwiatkoski over Schobert.
If there are actually  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/8/2020 9:55 am : link
a number of unrestricted free agents in the 25-26 range, that's great (but unusual).

Usually players come into the NFL at the age of 23. After three years, they are a restricted free agent, and four an unrestricted free agent (unless they were a 1st round pick with an option that was picked up).

That's why so many UFA's are 27.
Ugh, that is a lot for Hooper. Albeit hurt some he had a good year.  
LBH15 : 2/8/2020 9:58 am : link
I do think blocking TE is important as we have to provide support to any new and/or rookie Tackles that should be added to this roster. Or if heaven forbid we have to stick Solder out there as a starter again.
RE: Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
KeoweeFan : 2/8/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14806554 LBH15 said:
Quote:
in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?

Although not on the roster, CJ Conrad is still under contract. He was a good blocker at Kentucky. Maybe Kitchens can develop him.
RE: Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
rich in DC : 2/8/2020 10:02 am : link
In comment 14806554 LBH15 said:
Quote:
in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?


If the Giants look at TE in FA (not saying they will, but it might be an alternative to trying to identify multiple WR), don't sleep on Hunter Henry.
RE: RE: Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 14806609 rich in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 14806554 LBH15 said:


Quote:


in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?



If the Giants look at TE in FA (not saying they will, but it might be an alternative to trying to identify multiple WR), don't sleep on Hunter Henry.


Hunter Henry makes Evan Engram look like Ol' Reliable. When he's healthy, he's one of the best two-way TE's in the league. The problem is that he's hardly ever healthy for long.
RE: If there are actually  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 10:23 am : link
In comment 14806604 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
a number of unrestricted free agents in the 25-26 range, that's great (but unusual).

Usually players come into the NFL at the age of 23. After three years, they are a restricted free agent, and four an unrestricted free agent (unless they were a 1st round pick with an option that was picked up).

That's why so many UFA's are 27.


It's not unusual in the new CBA. Since CFB juniors started declaring en masse, and redshirt years in college have become rare (bordering on non-existent) among top players, there is a much larger group than their used to be who enters the draft just 3 years post HS graduation, at age 20-21, and then enters FA at 24/25/26. Some get picked high but many become late round picks or UDFA's who don't even have the 5th year option. Saquon, Flowers, Landon Collins, OBJ, Eli Apple, and Dexter Lawrence all fit that profile.

This is the case for many of the top prospects we are talking about right now in the draft. Andrew Thomas just turned 21 last month. So if he doesn't get extended early he'll either be 24 or 25 when he is entering FA. Chase Young turns 21 the month of the draft so he's in the same boat. Same with Okudah, Wills, Jerry Jeudy, etc.

And it's not just first round prospects - there will literally be dozens of juniors who declared for the draft who won't even be drafted. But for the few who slip through the cracks and turn into good players, they are only 4 years away from a pay day at age 25. RJ Mcintosh is an example of a later pick who was a junior entry who is still only 23 years old right now and just 2 years from FA.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/8/2020 10:43 am : link
Many of the juniors who enter the draft go in the 1st round and thus are under contract for 5 years if their option is picked up.
Kirwan's suggestion of 4-6 younger UFA's  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 10:44 am : link
there are 60+ UFA's under 27 years old. Here's a dozen names cherry picked from that list.

Ngakoue 24
Henry 25
Vonn Bell 25
Hooper 25
Kendall Fuller 25
Conklin 25
Littleton 26
Schobert 26
Kamalei Correa 26
Mackensie Alexander 26
Sean Davis 26
Justin Simmons 26

A lot of that list are DB's and there are a couple young pass rushers - which were positions he also specifically called out. If they can add 2-3 guys from that list plus a few other under the radar types it will go a long way to improving the roster.
Eric on Li  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/8/2020 11:04 am : link
We're nitpicking at this point but the 26 year olds you list will turn 27 in 2020.

My point was a minor one but I'm surprised Kirwan harped on 25 year old. It's not the norm to get a 25-year old UFA. That's just a fact.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 11:05 am : link
In comment 14806640 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Many of the juniors who enter the draft go in the 1st round and thus are under contract for 5 years if their option is picked up.


That's just not true.

There have been 100+ early entries in each of the last 3 drafts, which I believe each broke the previous record highs at the time, and there are there are 99 early entries this year. Simple math that "many" of them aren't going in the first round, and of those that do only a select number get the 5th year option.

Remember UDFA Travis Rudolph? He was a 3 and out junior entry and 1 of 20 early entries that went undrafted in 2017. 36 junior entries went undrafted in 2018 including our very own Nick Gates. In both years almost as many junior entries got picked in the first round as they did in the 2nd and day 3.

Some of the best juniors are certainly high picks who end up with the 5th year option, but they are not the majority. The NFL has been flooded by a crop of younger players (many who have made bad decisions btw) since the new CBA has de-emphasized the financial benefit of getting selected in round 1. But whatever % end up panning out (10%? 20%?) end up creating a sizable chunk UFA market between age 25-27.
RE: RE: RE: Are the Giants going to need address TIght End  
rich in DC : 2/8/2020 11:09 am : link
In comment 14806620 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14806609 rich in DC said:


Quote:


In comment 14806554 LBH15 said:


Quote:


in free agency or draft? Assume Ellison is gone and Engram and Smith remain. Did Smith show himself at all as a blocker?



If the Giants look at TE in FA (not saying they will, but it might be an alternative to trying to identify multiple WR), don't sleep on Hunter Henry.



Hunter Henry makes Evan Engram look like Ol' Reliable. When he's healthy, he's one of the best two-way TE's in the league. The problem is that he's hardly ever healthy for long.


You got that one backwards.

Engram has played 15, 11 and 8 games over the past 3 years.

Over that span, Hunter Henry has played 15, 14 and 12.

Add in that Henry is actually a reliable blocker and its no contest.
RE: Eric on Li  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 11:15 am : link
In comment 14806654 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
We're nitpicking at this point but the 26 year olds you list will turn 27 in 2020.

My point was a minor one but I'm surprised Kirwan harped on 25 year old. It's not the norm to get a 25-year old UFA. That's just a fact.


you are changing the discussion, Kirwan said that's who he would target and you said:

Quote:
guys coming off of their first contact are not going to be 25 years old They are almost always 27 or 28...26 if you are lucky. I don't know why he mentioned 25 a couple of times.


I'm not trying to play gotcha but that statement was wrong and what a lot of the posts on this thread have pointed out is that Kirwan's suggestion isn't unreasonable because the FA market has gotten younger due to the new CBA. Olivier Vernon was actually 1 of the first examples of that when he was signed as a UFA at...age 25...as a 3rd rd pick junior entry...off a 4 year rookie deal.
rich in DC  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 11:20 am : link
Henry also missed the entire 2018 season after tearing an ACL in OTA's that year.

As I wrote, when he's healthy he's one of the best two-way TE's in the league. Excellent receiver, excellent blocker. But he's probably going to cost close to what Hooper is, according to Spotrac.com., and if you sign him you're taking just as much risk, if not more, than you are with Evan Engram.
Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/8/2020 11:27 am : link
Again, I stand by my original assertion. Guys hitting UFA are not going to be 25 years old. If you've found a few examples, great, but it's not the norm.

I've been running this site for 26 years. Other than RFA's, the "young" UFAs are almost always 27 (26 if they are fortunate).
McGovern makes a lot of sense  
Bob in Newburgh : 2/8/2020 12:20 pm : link
If he is a solid starting C or better, and has the mental part of the position down, line calls, etc.

Very difficult to deal with 3 rookie starting o-linemen at the same time.

Additionally, rookie Cs do not typically have good 1st years, even when they go on to have fine careers.
RE: McGovern makes a lot of sense  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 12:26 pm : link
In comment 14806707 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
If he is a solid starting C or better, and has the mental part of the position down, line calls, etc.

Very difficult to deal with 3 rookie starting o-linemen at the same time.

Additionally, rookie Cs do not typically have good 1st years, even when they go on to have fine careers.


I'd be shocked if he didn't re-sign with Denver. He's expressed publicly his desire to stay with the team, which may be just "free agent speak," but he's also said glowing things about his head coach, position coach, and his young QB.
Still like Conklin for the same reason as an RT  
Bob in Newburgh : 2/8/2020 12:27 pm : link
That would allow a non-oline difference maker, Okudah perhaps, to be selected 1 and an athletic, but unfinished LT to go 2.
RE: Eric  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14806671 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Again, I stand by my original assertion. Guys hitting UFA are not going to be 25 years old. If you've found a few examples, great, but it's not the norm.

I've been running this site for 26 years. Other than RFA's, the "young" UFAs are almost always 27 (26 if they are fortunate).


Your original comment was that players "are not ending their first contract at age 25" and that is wrong, it is as simple as that. I don't understand what's so hard to admit about it being inaccurate and just moving on.

And if you want to pull the "26 years card" that's fine - I'd encourage you to count up how many of those years intersected with free agents whose first contracts were part of the new CBA and check your 2016 records when the Giants signed Vernon, who was 25 for the majority of his first year here.

Quote:
Multiple media sources are reporting that the New York Giants have agreed to terms with unrestricted free agent defensive end Olivier Vernon (Miami Dolphins). The contract is reportedly a 5-year, $85 million deal that includes $52.5 million in guaranteed money. The Jacksonville Jaguars were very much in play for his services as well. The 25-year old Vernon was originally drafted in the 3rd round of the 2012 NFL Draft by the Dolphins.


And I'm not cherry picking some 1 time fluke, just last year we let Landon Collins go to play every game of his first year for Washington as a 25 year old. Since the new CBA it's relatively common for guys to hit FA at age 25 - and as evidenced by both of those examples they aren't always first rounders.
Giants Agree to Terms with Olivier Vernon - ( New Window )
Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 2/8/2020 5:58 pm : link
Because it's not COMMON to sign 25-year old unrestricted free agents. It just isn't. Does it happen? Yes. But it is not common.

You have to be an underclassman who wasn't drafted in the 1st round who hits the open market.

It is much, much, much more common to be 27 (or about to turn 27) when you hit the open market. It just is. I do the write-ups on these guys when we sign them.
That's closer to true but it's also not what your original comment was  
Eric on Li : 2/8/2020 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14806476 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
only thing where is is off is guys coming off of their first contact are not going to be 25 years old. They are almost always 27 or 28...26 if you are lucky. I don't know why he mentioned 25 a couple of times.


just did a rough count of PFF's top 50 FA 9 are age 25 (or younger). 11 more are 26.
pff FA rankings - ( New Window )
Love PK, but to be fair  
jlukes : 2/9/2020 7:41 am : link
He looooooved the Shurmur hire
RE: Love PK, but to be fair  
Big Blue '56 : 2/9/2020 9:12 am : link
In comment 14807111 jlukes said:
Quote:
He looooooved the Shurmur hire


So did I when I thought heíd really transform our O..I was wrong.
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