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Jeff Okudah hasnít allowed more than 50 yards receiving

Vin_Cuccs : 2/7/2020 11:01 pm
In his last 27 games according to PFF on Twitter.

Crazy stat.
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fkap, assuming no trade down...  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 8:37 am : link
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.

The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
RE: fkap, assuming no trade down...  
Hammer : 2/8/2020 9:16 am : link
In comment 14806563 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.

The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.


Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.
RE: RE: fkap, assuming no trade down...  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 9:33 am : link
In comment 14806576 Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14806563 Klaatu said:


Quote:


I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.

The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.



Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.


But that's one unit that could benefit greatly with a better scheme and better coaching. The O-Line is an absolute mess, with arguably the worst LT in the league, no real OC, and no RT. No amount of coaching can make up for that. Only a massive infusion of talent can.
Agree we the above, OL more the concern and need  
LBH15 : 2/8/2020 9:41 am : link
to shore up, particularly with young talent at QB and RB that need to carry the team.

LB is a mess too but second on priority list.
RE: RE: We need an elite player on defense  
mfsd : 2/8/2020 9:43 am : link
In comment 14806537 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14806529 mfsd said:


Quote:


as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.

Iíve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming heís there and DG doesnít pull off a trade down



I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.

I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.


All fair points - if they decide one of the tackles has elite potential, no question thatís a good pick.

Guess Iím also just worried about them forcing another Flowers type pick...but Iím not a scout, just spitballing here. Donít want to see us whiff at #4
RE: RE: The only true shut down corner in the NFL I've ever seen was  
WillVAB : 2/8/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14806560 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14806524 Ira said:


Quote:


Deion. Okudah's easily the best corner in this draft, but he doesn't shut down top college receivers.



Regis was an animal and played in a far more pass happy league than Deion did. Not saying his better or worse, but Revis had a dominant stretch in the NFL.


Peterson was the only true shut down corner in recent years. He looks to be on the decline after last year.
Okudah  
WillVAB : 2/8/2020 9:50 am : link
If teams feel the same way as most posters on this thread then you leverage that interest and trade down.

The Giants have already invested a ton in the secondary. Itís time to let those guys play.

The focus of the off-season has to be OL/ER/LB.
RE: Okudah  
KDavies : 2/8/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14806598 WillVAB said:
Quote:
If teams feel the same way as most posters on this thread then you leverage that interest and trade down.

The Giants have already invested a ton in the secondary. Itís time to let those guys play.

The focus of the off-season has to be OL/ER/LB.


Agreed. Simple to me. I am hoping first 4 picks are the 3 QBs and Young. (Obviously, someone else moving into the top 3 would be great). Giants either get Young, or more likely, they trade down to a team wanting Herbert. Even if just getting an extra 2, pick best available OL or edge (or Okudah or Simmons) after trade down
The value is the #4 pick,  
DonnieD89 : 2/8/2020 10:53 am : link
not the position. If the OT doesnít match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player thatís a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
RE: The value is the #4 pick,  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 11:06 am : link
In comment 14806647 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
not the position. If the OT doesnít match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player thatís a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.


Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.

Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.
I would prefer a trade down, but if the value is not there  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/8/2020 11:07 am : link
take Okudah in a heartbeat. He's fast, physical, tackles well. Plays the ball, top notch athlete with ball skills. If he and Baker become a good duo bodes well for the next 4-5 years.
XBRONX - Watch the Clemson game  
Ira : 2/8/2020 11:11 am : link
.
RE: RE: The value is the #4 pick,  
DonnieD89 : 2/8/2020 11:37 am : link
In comment 14806657 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14806647 DonnieD89 said:


Quote:


not the position. If the OT doesnít match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player thatís a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.



Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.

Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.


Like I said, if he is that good, you take him. If he is as good as Patrick Peterson, you take him. If the OT is on the same tier as Okudah, take the OT. Iím all for building the OLine and pray the value for OT is there at #4, but if the value is not there and you canít get a trade offer of worth, the pick should not be forced on the position. I just hope FA can make the decisions easier.
Raise your hand if you don't think CB is a need on this team?  
chuckydee9 : 2/8/2020 11:39 am : link
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..
Positional Value.  
Klaatu : 2/8/2020 11:40 am : link
Linked below is a very good column from several years ago regarding Positional Value and the draft.

Quote:
Tier 2 - Offensive Tackles, Pass-Rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB)

Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.

Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.

Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.


Quote:
Tier 4 - Cornerback, Safety, Tight End, Center

Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receiversóand more receivers are being put on the field than everó its positional value isn't as high as it once was.

Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.

A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerbackóover the long haulódoesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.

Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.

Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.



Breaking Down NFL Draft Positional Value into Tiers - ( New Window )
Would have loved to see him go up against Jamar Chase  
BSIMatt : 2/8/2020 11:52 am : link
That match up alone would have been worth the price of admission.
I'm for trading down a few spots. I'd be about equally happy with  
Ira : 2/8/2020 11:57 am : link
Chase, Okudah, Simmons and Wills and I think we can get one of the above at 5 or 7 with an extra pick.
RE: The value is the #4 pick,  
MM_in_NYC : 2/8/2020 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14806647 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
not the position. If the OT doesnít match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player thatís a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.


well said. this aligns with my thinking as well - along with being open to trade down offers.
RE: Raise your hand if you don't think CB is a need on this team?  
giantstock : 2/8/2020 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14806682 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..


No we weren't good on offense. Our offense moved pretty well when the game was over. In addition the Giants played an easy schedule.

And you also have to ensure that our franchise QB is protected well enough.

But we also have a huge concern at CB.
Edge, corner, oline  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/8/2020 5:51 pm : link
You literally can't have too many of these guys. It enables you to do so much offensively and defensively. Okudah is the second best player in the draft by a significant margin in my opinion. If we don't trade down he should be the guy. He's instantly our best corner. I know this won't be a popular opinion beers because our oline is in tatters, but bad teams reach for imperfect prospects at the top of the draft. As long as his mental shit checks out and he gives you the requisite combine numbers he should be the pick the way it is looking.
I hope that if we go OT  
Jay in Toronto : 2/8/2020 6:13 pm : link
At #4, it's because there is strong conviction that he is the best player available.

Of course, we'll never know.
I donít follow college football  
bradshaw44 : 2/8/2020 6:31 pm : link
Can someone tell me if heís considered to be Revis or maybe Deion level talented? If he is then I think taking him at 4, even though we have a dearth of talent at the position is absolutely warranted.

Anyone have a pro comp? Sorry, I didnít read all the prior posts before posting.
Giant secondary  
XBRONX : 2/8/2020 6:35 pm : link
gave up 15 plays of over 40 yards.Only team with more was Oakland with 16.
RE: Raise your hand if you don't think CB is a need on this team?  
Danny Dimes : 2/8/2020 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14806682 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..


Agree man, people who think Baker is a #1 CB are in for surprises.
Ira  
XBRONX : 2/8/2020 6:42 pm : link
Watch what in the Clemson game. Who ran up receiving stats?
Think Revis and Sanders comparisons would be over the top  
BSIMatt : 2/8/2020 6:43 pm : link
Those are two hall of famers, and even if you put that aside....heís not as much a playmaker on the ball as those two..3 ints in 3 years, compared to 8 for Revis in 3 and 14 for Sanders in 4. He is going to test very well, heís a great athlete and is a fantastic cover corner though.
He  
mdthedream : 2/9/2020 12:04 am : link
is also a very good tackler.
RE: Positional Value.  
Default : 2/9/2020 1:44 am : link
In comment 14806684 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Linked below is a very good column from several years ago regarding Positional Value and the draft.



Quote:


Tier 2 - Offensive Tackles, Pass-Rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB)

Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.

Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.

Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.





Quote:


Tier 4 - Cornerback, Safety, Tight End, Center

Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receiversóand more receivers are being put on the field than everó its positional value isn't as high as it once was.

Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.

A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerbackóover the long haulódoesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.

Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.

Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.


Breaking Down NFL Draft Positional Value into Tiers - ( New Window )


Cute link.
The shitbrained GM of this team took a tier 5 position at #2.
Nothing it out of bounds for this team.
RE: And baker didnít allow a TD in college  
Leg of Theismann : 2/9/2020 1:55 am : link
In comment 14806546 ron mexico said:
Quote:
Or something like that. That hasn't really translated so far.


I'm giving Baker a pass for 2019 for two reasons:

1) He was a rookie.
2) Bettcher had him playing zone all year, when his specialty in college was man coverage.

It made very little sense to trade two picks to move up 7 spots to draft a man-cover corner... and then give him to a DC who played him in zone all year. Especially considering there was plenty of other CB talent on the board of similar value as Baker that the Giants could have gotten at pick #38, and they probably would have been better fit in Bettcher's defense.

ALL THAT SAID-- Now that Bettcher is gone, I'm happy that we have Baker. His ceiling was clear in college: he can absolutely be a shutdown corner in a system that plays to his strengths. I'm very encouraged by what Judge has said about adapting the system to the strengths of his players, focusing on what they CAN do, not what they can't. DC Graham seems to have a similarly adaptive style and philosophy. So in general I'm optimistic about Baker in 2020 and beyond.

From watching him in college, I say just man him up on the offense's best WR and let him sink or swim, I think we'd be better off doing that than trying to make him do things he's not good at or very comfortable with.
RE: I hope that if we go OT  
DonnieD89 : 2/9/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14806889 Jay in Toronto said:
Quote:
At #4, it's because there is strong conviction that he is the best player available.

Of course, we'll never know.


Exactly Jay. If they are going to go #4 for an OT, itís because he is that good. I do not want any OT pick forces at #4.
My friends...  
Klaatu : 2/9/2020 11:24 am : link
Some of you display the same "BPA Uber Alles" attitude towards the 1st Round, without regard for positional value, that led to giving short shrift to the O-Line in the 2011 and 2012 drafts, which led to actually forcing an O-Line pick in 2013. This was repeated in 2014 (although not as egregiously), but again it led to forcing an O-Line pick in 2015.

2016, and once again the O-Line was ignored in favor of a CB, and in 2017 it was for a TE. In 2018, it was for an RB, with the excuse, I suppose that we'd already made Nate Solder the highest-paid OT in the league. In 2019, after securing a QB, it was for a DT and another CB (which we traded up to get).

All the while we watched as our O-Line went from being one of the best in the league to one of the worst. The Giants wasted the last half of Eli Manning's career by failing to properly address the most obvious of their problems.

And now some of you want to pick up for Daniel Jones where we left off with Eli in the name of BPA, as well as "We can always draft O-Linemen later on." I just don't get that.

In my view, nothing is more important than rebuilding our O-Line, and every premium resource we have should be used to do that. Not even improving our woeful pass-rush is as important, and certainly not an upgrade to our under-performing secondary, or drafting another skill player.

O-Line, early and often.
Barring a bonanza of a draft tradedown scenario  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 12:33 pm : link
taking Okudah would do wonders for our porous D

We lost Jackrabbit and he needs to be replaced.

Okudah could be a starting corner for the next 8-10 years

You just cannot have too many quality corners

Free agency and the second round will bring OL
K that's an argument I think is important,  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/9/2020 12:36 pm : link
but I can see grabbing Okudah at 4 still (particularly if Love is looked at as our next FS) at waiting until the top.of the second to grab an OT. Particularly if they think the "second tier" of OTs (Austin Jackson, etc) have about the same upside in year two that the top guys have. Because they're likely not dumping Solder yet, and two of the top 4 OTs (Will's and Wirfs) are actually right side OTs, and moving them to the left side I imagine carries some additional risk.

Plus maybe just maybe a stud OT like Conklin gets signed by DG as an FA?

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't complain in the least if DG drafts an OT in 1 and an OC in 2, and signs an FA like Ngakoue for pass rushing.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. But your point that OL was put on the back burner far too long is well made IMO, and I have bitched about it for years.
Marty, that's precisely the type of thinking that led us...  
Klaatu : 2/9/2020 12:38 pm : link
To where we are today with regard to the offensive line.
Repeating your argument ad nauseum  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 1:03 pm : link
does not strengthen it

If the D is not addressed at its weakest point - the secondary - then it really doesn't matter what is done on the O

Management has plenty of FA $ to spend this year

There are plenty of quality OL in this coming draft

I could see management procuring either an OT or a C in FA and then spend a second-round choice on whatever OL they did not procure in FA

Such an approach frees up management to obtain maximum flexibility with their first-rounder

Such an open and flexible approach to the draft would likely maximize our return in lieu of just blindly raging that we need to invest our highest draft choices on OL
From the drafting of Chris Snee in 2004 until the drafting  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/9/2020 1:08 pm : link
of Justin Pugh at 19 (out of desperation to some extent) in 2013 the Giants under Jerry Reese drafted only ONE OL in the first three rounds (or with a top 100 pick), Will Beatty at 60 at the bottom of the second round.

That's eight strait years, 25 top 100 draft selections, with only ONE OL selected among premium (top 100) picks. And ZERO OL selected among 13 top 50 picks the Giants made over 8 years. Yet 5 of a team's 24 "starters" (counting 3 WR and 5 DBs as starters) are OL.


That's way there was no pipeline of OL as O'Hara, Snee and crew deteriorated. It was a clear mis-allocation of draft resources.
RE: Repeating your argument ad nauseum  
Klaatu : 2/9/2020 1:46 pm : link
In comment 14807272 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
does not strengthen it


It doesn't need to be strengthened. It's strong enough as it is.

Quote:
If the D is not addressed at its weakest point - the secondary - then it really doesn't matter what is done on the O


I'd argue that the weakest aspect of the defense is the pass-rush. As for the secondary, along with the linebackers, it's one unit that should benefit the most from a new scheme and better coaching. You can't say the same with the offensive line, where we don't even have a Center or a Right Tackle, and our Left Tackle is arguably the worst in the league..

Quote:
Management has plenty of FA $ to spend this year


They do. And I've argued that they should try and sign an ILB like Nick Kwiatkosi and a FS like Anthony Harris to strengthen our defense (assuming that Ogletree and Bethea are cut). Others have argued for an Edge Rusher like Ngakoue. Some have even argued for a CB (there are plenty to choose from)

Quote:
There are plenty of quality OL in this coming draft


There are, but there are no guarantees that we'll get any of our top choices except with the #4 pick, and thanks to the Williams trade, we're already short one premium pick.

Quote:
I could see management procuring either an OT or a C in FA and then spend a second-round choice on whatever OL they did not procure in FA

Such an approach frees up management to obtain maximum flexibility with their first-rounder


That's assuming they're able to sign a free agent they covet. They weren't able to in 2013, which led to them reaching for Pugh. I've argued that they should try and sign C/OG Ted Karras from New England. Other's have pushed for OT Jack Conklin. But you can't guarantee that the Giants will be able to sign any free agent O-linemean of note. We're not the only team with a lot of cap space.

Quote:
Such an open and flexible approach to the draft would likely maximize our return in lieu of just blindly raging that we need to invest our highest draft choices on OL


I'm not "blindly raging." I'm pointing out how the mistakes of the past should not be repeated, with nine years of history to back me up. I'm also pointing out the importance of factoring in positional value along with BPA when it comes to draft picks, particularly 1st round draft picks.

Finally, I don't want to find the Giants in the same boat next year, hoping to maybe, possibly, solve their O-Line problems in free agency and the draft, after another season of watching Daniel Jones under constant duress, and watching Saquon Barkley repeatedly stuffed behind the line of scrimmage.
Well that's a much more coherent post  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 2:45 pm : link
It just makes no sense to me to be pushing for a specific thrust in the draft when free agency has not even begun.

JInts have a whole new coaching staff to influence DG with regard to how holes in our team needs to be addressed.

Lets see who they come up with in FA and then start arguing about the draft

Should the Jints get so lucky as to procure Byron Jones cb from the Cows perhaps via Jason Garrett's influence then I won't be pushing for Okudah in the draft

Should they capture the Jag ER then the pass rush won't be such a dire need

Jints could also get lucky in obtaining some quality OL in FA. I prefer to take an optimistic view here. I prefer to remember gets like Kareem McKenzie, Bart Oates, O'Hara et al

A major factor here is we just don't know how the new coaching staff sizes up someone like Gates. Do they seem him as a potential starter and if so, at which position?

One thing we can agree on is our mutual respect for Nick Kwiatowski as a potential ILB get. Combine him with a healthy Connelly and our middle zones won't seem so porous

Take care of a couple of holes in FA and it completely changes the draft perspective. We have the money to do so and I am confident that will happen.

I would like to see the draft focus on speed and athleticism and smarts that overall can be putty for our coaching staff to mold long term.

That can only happen if management takes a smart approach to FA. I like that our coaching staff has some real NFL experience to bring a variety of perspectives to FA. It gives me real confidence.

Once a productive FA harvest is processed I think the draft approach will be clear.

No need to push for a particular draft approach now.
RE: Repeating your argument ad nauseum  
WillVAB : 2/9/2020 4:21 pm : link
In comment 14807272 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
does not strengthen it

If the D is not addressed at its weakest point - the secondary - then it really doesn't matter what is done on the O

Management has plenty of FA $ to spend this year

There are plenty of quality OL in this coming draft

I could see management procuring either an OT or a C in FA and then spend a second-round choice on whatever OL they did not procure in FA

Such an approach frees up management to obtain maximum flexibility with their first-rounder

Such an open and flexible approach to the draft would likely maximize our return in lieu of just blindly raging that we need to invest our highest draft choices on OL


This philosophy is why the Giants OL has sucked for 10 years.
I care about this coming year  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 4:57 pm : link
I have put forth a balanced approach

Instead of spewing negativity why don't you offer up your own plan?
RE: Positional Value.  
bw in dc : 2/9/2020 5:20 pm : link
In comment 14806684 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Linked below is a very good column from several years ago regarding Positional Value and the draft.



Good link.

Tier 5 - RBs, Gs, and DTs.

And so what do we do the last two years? Draft a RB in the first round, followed by a DT in the first round, and then we traded two draft picks for another DT...

Can you please send this link to Mara, Gettleman, Abrams, etc? ; )


RE: RE: We need an elite player on defense  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/9/2020 5:29 pm : link
In comment 14806537 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14806529 mfsd said:


Quote:


as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.

Iíve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming heís there and DG doesnít pull off a trade down



I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.

I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.


So shall we make a list of biggest needs and draft by position down the list?

It's not about the biggest need. That's the part you're not getting here. That line of thinking got us Flowers.

There may very well be more top OT talent than CB in the first round, but at 4 Okudah may very well be the bpa.

RE: I care about this coming year  
WillVAB : 2/9/2020 5:35 pm : link
In comment 14807390 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
I have put forth a balanced approach

Instead of spewing negativity why don't you offer up your own plan?


I have on other threads. The Giants shouldnít touch CB until 6/7 round or after the draft, if at all.

Conklin and one of Dupree/Yannick/Judon in FA. I like the Chicago LB as well.

Draft trade out of 4 and target ER LT and C. Thereís plenty of ER options in round 1 as well as LT options. Iíd go after Biadasz at Center.

Later in the draft Iíd look for value at LB, TE, and WR. S would make sense late as well.

The Giants need to manipulate this off-season to fix the OL and pass rush. Thatís the problem with the team. Not slot corners or LBs in coverage or other random ancillary pieces.
Well that was constructive  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 7:15 pm : link
and you make some very valid points

I would disagree with your diminished opinion regarding corner but that is me

Corner is critical imo with the way the game is played now.

60% or more of all non punting offensive plays are pass plays

With the increase in play action, mis direction and run pass options it is really difficult to mount a consistent pass rush particularly against mobile qb's.

That means the back seven needs to cover.

Jints pass defense was ranked #28

Their best corner Jackrabbit is no longer on the team.

I would spend FA $ on the best corner available Byron Jones. Barring that I would certainly give Okudah a long look in the draft.

I still think a balanced approach to spending wisely in FA to fill holes and then drafting for speed and athleticism is the way to go.

Now some may say that approach has not worked for the Jints.

I would say that approach has worked extremely well for the successful teams.

The difference is how wisely you pick your players in both FA and the draft.

It is my belief that the influx of wisemen from around the league to fill our coaching staff will have a positive impact on DG
RE: Well that was constructive  
WillVAB : 2/9/2020 8:04 pm : link
In comment 14807491 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
and you make some very valid points

I would disagree with your diminished opinion regarding corner but that is me

Corner is critical imo with the way the game is played now.

60% or more of all non punting offensive plays are pass plays

With the increase in play action, mis direction and run pass options it is really difficult to mount a consistent pass rush particularly against mobile qb's.

That means the back seven needs to cover.

Jints pass defense was ranked #28

Their best corner Jackrabbit is no longer on the team.

I would spend FA $ on the best corner available Byron Jones. Barring that I would certainly give Okudah a long look in the draft.

I still think a balanced approach to spending wisely in FA to fill holes and then drafting for speed and athleticism is the way to go.

Now some may say that approach has not worked for the Jints.

I would say that approach has worked extremely well for the successful teams.

The difference is how wisely you pick your players in both FA and the draft.

It is my belief that the influx of wisemen from around the league to fill our coaching staff will have a positive impact on DG


This philosophy doesnít work. The model for this would be the 19 Pats and smashmouth football booted them from the playoffs. The niners and Chiefs werenít littered w studs in their secondary. They do however play well in the trenches and rush the passer.

Youíve been pushing this model for years and it just doesnít work.

The deficiencies along the OL and lack of a viable pass rush are the root cause of the problems with this team. Fix that and the team will win.

Klaatu  
Bill2 : 2/9/2020 8:58 pm : link
IS it possible that positional value a few years ago and current 2020 positional values (anticipating the game playing shifts we are seeing) are different?

Is it also possible that the overall "position" value for CB's is different for say slot corners and or island corners?

Taking away one X receiver with one island defender is kind of a more important key than "average"

I ask because so often "average" hides the importance of understanding it could be average composed of pygmies and Elephants

Lastly, "average" positional value is almost 45% different from a value from the top end of any spectrum as to also ofte " mask" useful insight

Stuff to consider?
The SB winning Patriots  
ChicagoMarty : 2/9/2020 9:19 pm : link
won their last SB because their secondary shut down the opposing passing offense

There is your model

Your obsessive opposition is duly noted just not well articulated

Bit keep trying

I like your posts much better when you are constructive and not negative
RE: RE: RE: We need an elite player on defense  
Klaatu : 2/9/2020 9:57 pm : link
In comment 14807413 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14806537 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 14806529 mfsd said:


Quote:


as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.

Iíve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming heís there and DG doesnít pull off a trade down



I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.

I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.



So shall we make a list of biggest needs and draft by position down the list?

It's not about the biggest need. That's the part you're not getting here. That line of thinking got us Flowers.


No, it was the four previous years where the O-Line was given short shrift in the draft that got us Flowers, that prompted JR to reach for a day three talent on day one, and in the top ten no less. It's following your line of thinking from 2011 to 2014 that caused that mistake, not mine.

Quote:
There may very well be more top OT talent than CB in the first round, but at 4 Okudah may very well be the bpa.


And if you draft solely on BPA, without regard for positional value, you end up exactly where we are today, still struggling to fix an offensive line that's been horrific for almost ten years, because we've also followed your line of thinking in 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019.

What has that gotten us?
RE: The SB winning Patriots  
WillVAB : 2/9/2020 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14807631 ChicagoMarty said:
Quote:
won their last SB because their secondary shut down the opposing passing offense

There is your model

Your obsessive opposition is duly noted just not well articulated

Bit keep trying

I like your posts much better when you are constructive and not negative


Iím not being negative. I just donít see how you can stay on brand given the current state of the roster.

Plugging holes along the OL and ER in FA would be nice but realistically probably wonít happen. There wonít be many attractive FAís at need spots. Maybe they get an ER or OT, maybe they get lucky and get both. Itís slim pickings from the anticipated pool of players and that may dwindle before FA even starts. Then thereís no guarantee the available guys will sign here even if the money is right.

The Giants could find themselves going into the draft needing a RT, C, and successor at LT. They could need two ERs.

CB has no place in the conversation this year, especially after everything theyíve invested in the secondary the last two years. If theyíre deficient going into 20 so be it. If Okudah is the bpa then hopefully thereís a GM out there who shares your philosophy and will give up a bunch to select him.
RE: Klaatu  
Klaatu : 2/9/2020 10:20 pm : link
In comment 14807611 Bill2 said:
Quote:
IS it possible that positional value a few years ago and current 2020 positional values (anticipating the game playing shifts we are seeing) are different?


I don't think so, Bill. If we've seen any shift at all at the top of the draft, it's an elevation of OG's.

Passers, pass-protectors, and pass-rushers are still at a premium. I'd argue that WR's might be overvalued as a 1st round group, because "pass-catchers" can include TE's and RB's, too, but that's a separate issue.

Good pass-defenders are a fine thing to have. No one is suggesting that the CB position should be ignored or relegated solely to day three picks or UDFA's, least of all me. But I look at a pick like Okudah at #4 as a homeowner replacing all of his windows while the foundation of his house is crumbling beneath him.
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