The Giants need offensive linemen. They need to draft them early and often, regardless of who they sign in free agency. Last year they traded up to draft DeAndre Baker, passing on Jawaan Taylor. In my opinion that was a mistake. I'd hate to see them repeat that mistake this year, passing on an OT, again, to draft another CB.
as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.
I’ve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming he’s there and DG doesn’t pull off a trade down
I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.
I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.
RE: RE: Means nothing. Wasn't the story last year that Baker didn't have a pas Â
I agree about the OL. IF there's a hot prospect OT, his name has to be considered. IF there's good OL prospects worthy of top 15ish, and you can do a halfway decent trade, do it.
You can't force a second tier OL above first tier value (player or multiple picks via trade). The prob
Deion. Okudah's easily the best corner in this draft, but he doesn't shut down top college receivers.
Regis was an animal and played in a far more pass happy league than Deion did. Not saying his better or worse, but Revis had a dominant stretch in the NFL.
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.
But that's one unit that could benefit greatly with a better scheme and better coaching. The O-Line is an absolute mess, with arguably the worst LT in the league, no real OC, and no RT. No amount of coaching can make up for that. Only a massive infusion of talent can.
Agree we the above, OL more the concern and need Â
as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.
I’ve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming he’s there and DG doesn’t pull off a trade down
I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.
I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.
All fair points - if they decide one of the tackles has elite potential, no question that’s a good pick.
Guess I’m also just worried about them forcing another Flowers type pick...but I’m not a scout, just spitballing here. Don’t want to see us whiff at #4
RE: RE: The only true shut down corner in the NFL I've ever seen was Â
Deion. Okudah's easily the best corner in this draft, but he doesn't shut down top college receivers.
Regis was an animal and played in a far more pass happy league than Deion did. Not saying his better or worse, but Revis had a dominant stretch in the NFL.
Peterson was the only true shut down corner in recent years. He looks to be on the decline after last year.
If teams feel the same way as most posters on this thread then you leverage that interest and trade down.
The Giants have already invested a ton in the secondary. It’s time to let those guys play.
The focus of the off-season has to be OL/ER/LB.
Agreed. Simple to me. I am hoping first 4 picks are the 3 QBs and Young. (Obviously, someone else moving into the top 3 would be great). Giants either get Young, or more likely, they trade down to a team wanting Herbert. Even if just getting an extra 2, pick best available OL or edge (or Okudah or Simmons) after trade down
not the position. If the OT doesn’t match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player that’s a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
not the position. If the OT doesn’t match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player that’s a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.
Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.
I would prefer a trade down, but if the value is not there Â
take Okudah in a heartbeat. He's fast, physical, tackles well. Plays the ball, top notch athlete with ball skills. If he and Baker become a good duo bodes well for the next 4-5 years.
not the position. If the OT doesn’t match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player that’s a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.
Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.
Like I said, if he is that good, you take him. If he is as good as Patrick Peterson, you take him. If the OT is on the same tier as Okudah, take the OT. I’m all for building the OLine and pray the value for OT is there at #4, but if the value is not there and you can’t get a trade offer of worth, the pick should not be forced on the position. I just hope FA can make the decisions easier.
Raise your hand if you don't think CB is a need on this team? Â
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..
Linked below is a very good column from several years ago regarding Positional Value and the draft.
Quote:
Tier 2 - Offensive Tackles, Pass-Rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB)
Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.
Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.
Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.
Quote:
Tier 4 - Cornerback, Safety, Tight End, Center
Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receivers—and more receivers are being put on the field than ever— its positional value isn't as high as it once was.
Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.
A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerback—over the long haul—doesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.
Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.
Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.
not the position. If the OT doesn’t match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player that’s a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
well said. this aligns with my thinking as well - along with being open to trade down offers.
RE: Raise your hand if you don't think CB is a need on this team? Â
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..
No we weren't good on offense. Our offense moved pretty well when the game was over. In addition the Giants played an easy schedule.
And you also have to ensure that our franchise QB is protected well enough.
You literally can't have too many of these guys. It enables you to do so much offensively and defensively. Okudah is the second best player in the draft by a significant margin in my opinion. If we don't trade down he should be the guy. He's instantly our best corner. I know this won't be a popular opinion beers because our oline is in tatters, but bad teams reach for imperfect prospects at the top of the draft. As long as his mental shit checks out and he gives you the requisite combine numbers he should be the pick the way it is looking.
Can someone tell me if he’s considered to be Revis or maybe Deion level talented? If he is then I think taking him at 4, even though we have a dearth of talent at the position is absolutely warranted.
Anyone have a pro comp? Sorry, I didn’t read all the prior posts before posting.
I recommend you watch the games ones in a while.. in spite of our bad OL we still were good on offense.. Our Pass defense sucked.. sucked horribly.. and sucked at every level.. it wasn't just coaching.. everyone sucked..
Agree man, people who think Baker is a #1 CB are in for surprises.
Those are two hall of famers, and even if you put that aside....he’s not as much a playmaker on the ball as those two..3 ints in 3 years, compared to 8 for Revis in 3 and 14 for Sanders in 4. He is going to test very well, he’s a great athlete and is a fantastic cover corner though.
Linked below is a very good column from several years ago regarding Positional Value and the draft.
Quote:
Tier 2 - Offensive Tackles, Pass-Rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB)
Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.
Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.
Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.
Quote:
Tier 4 - Cornerback, Safety, Tight End, Center
Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receivers—and more receivers are being put on the field than ever— its positional value isn't as high as it once was.
Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.
A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerback—over the long haul—doesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.
Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.
Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.
Breaking Down NFL Draft Positional Value into Tiers - ( New Window )
Cute link.
The shitbrained GM of this team took a tier 5 position at #2.
Nothing it out of bounds for this team.
Or something like that. That hasn't really translated so far.
I'm giving Baker a pass for 2019 for two reasons:
1) He was a rookie.
2) Bettcher had him playing zone all year, when his specialty in college was man coverage.
It made very little sense to trade two picks to move up 7 spots to draft a man-cover corner... and then give him to a DC who played him in zone all year. Especially considering there was plenty of other CB talent on the board of similar value as Baker that the Giants could have gotten at pick #38, and they probably would have been better fit in Bettcher's defense.
ALL THAT SAID-- Now that Bettcher is gone, I'm happy that we have Baker. His ceiling was clear in college: he can absolutely be a shutdown corner in a system that plays to his strengths. I'm very encouraged by what Judge has said about adapting the system to the strengths of his players, focusing on what they CAN do, not what they can't. DC Graham seems to have a similarly adaptive style and philosophy. So in general I'm optimistic about Baker in 2020 and beyond.
From watching him in college, I say just man him up on the offense's best WR and let him sink or swim, I think we'd be better off doing that than trying to make him do things he's not good at or very comfortable with.
Feel same, pure blue chippers for sure
I’ve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming he’s there and DG doesn’t pull off a trade down
Yes Baker hadn’t allowed a TD I don’t believe and it wasn’t like he was playing weak receivers at Georgia. But it takes some CB’s time to develop
I’ve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming he’s there and DG doesn’t pull off a trade down
I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.
I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.
Quote:
Completed against him, or something to that effect? Doesn't mean he's not a talent, nor does it mean he'll be a great pro necessarily.
Yes Baker hadn’t allowed a TD I don’t believe and it wasn’t like he was playing weak receivers at Georgia. But it takes some CB’s time to develop
Exactly
Good news for the Giants.
You can't force a second tier OL above first tier value (player or multiple picks via trade). The prob
Regis was an animal and played in a far more pass happy league than Deion did. Not saying his better or worse, but Revis had a dominant stretch in the NFL.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.
Quote:
I'm not talking about forcing a pick like Flowers, who should never have gone day one, let alone top ten, or Pugh, who was a 2nd rounder at best. I'm looking at OT's who are legitimate 1st round talents at a position where the need is greatest. I'm looking for the best balance of BPA vs. Need.
The Giants are already down one premium pick thanks to the Williams trade. They need to use the premium picks they have left to bolster the weakest unit on the team. That's the offensive line.
Not to say that the offensive line does not badly need upgrading, but I would posit that linebacker is the weakest unit on the team.
But that's one unit that could benefit greatly with a better scheme and better coaching. The O-Line is an absolute mess, with arguably the worst LT in the league, no real OC, and no RT. No amount of coaching can make up for that. Only a massive infusion of talent can.
LB is a mess too but second on priority list.
Quote:
as much as any other need on this team. At #4, your goal is to draft a guy you project as a perennial pro bowler.
I’ve been leaning Okudah for a while, assuming he’s there and DG doesn’t pull off a trade down
I disagree. The Giants have already invested a lot of draft capital in CB's at the expense of the O-Line (with the exception of Hernandez in 2018). And if you buy what this guy is selling, you're more likely to find your perennial pro-bowler in the 1st round at OT, not CB.
I don't see how anyone can look at the makeup of this team and not see how talent-deficient the O-Line is, and that fixing it must be the number one priority this offseason. Daniel Jones was the third-most pressured QB in the league last year. Barkley was hit repeatedly behind the LOS. You're wasting your two most valuable acquisitions by giving them a sub-standard O-Line to work with.
All fair points - if they decide one of the tackles has elite potential, no question that’s a good pick.
Guess I’m also just worried about them forcing another Flowers type pick...but I’m not a scout, just spitballing here. Don’t want to see us whiff at #4
Quote:
Deion. Okudah's easily the best corner in this draft, but he doesn't shut down top college receivers.
Regis was an animal and played in a far more pass happy league than Deion did. Not saying his better or worse, but Revis had a dominant stretch in the NFL.
Peterson was the only true shut down corner in recent years. He looks to be on the decline after last year.
The Giants have already invested a ton in the secondary. It’s time to let those guys play.
The focus of the off-season has to be OL/ER/LB.
The Giants have already invested a ton in the secondary. It’s time to let those guys play.
The focus of the off-season has to be OL/ER/LB.
Agreed. Simple to me. I am hoping first 4 picks are the 3 QBs and Young. (Obviously, someone else moving into the top 3 would be great). Giants either get Young, or more likely, they trade down to a team wanting Herbert. Even if just getting an extra 2, pick best available OL or edge (or Okudah or Simmons) after trade down
Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.
Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.
Quote:
not the position. If the OT doesn’t match the value at #4 and there is not great offer in a trade down, you take Okudah. If Okudah is that good, you take him anyway. I disagree of the notion that there was too much of an investment in the secondary last year. Secondary got torched. How can it be justified by not taking the best available player that’s a CB when the CB play was not very good last year? The CB play is unknown right now, and there is no Jackrabbit.
Because, as I wrote about the LB corps, that's a unit that should benefit from a better scheme and better coaching, which is not something you can say about the offensive line.
Also, value is relative to the needs of team where the talent differential isn't very great. That's where the balance between BPA and Need factors in.
Like I said, if he is that good, you take him. If he is as good as Patrick Peterson, you take him. If the OT is on the same tier as Okudah, take the OT. I’m all for building the OLine and pray the value for OT is there at #4, but if the value is not there and you can’t get a trade offer of worth, the pick should not be forced on the position. I just hope FA can make the decisions easier.
Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.
Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.
Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.
Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receivers—and more receivers are being put on the field than ever— its positional value isn't as high as it once was.
Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.
A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerback—over the long haul—doesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.
Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.
Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.
Breaking Down NFL Draft Positional Value into Tiers - ( New Window )
well said. this aligns with my thinking as well - along with being open to trade down offers.
No we weren't good on offense. Our offense moved pretty well when the game was over. In addition the Giants played an easy schedule.
And you also have to ensure that our franchise QB is protected well enough.
But we also have a huge concern at CB.
Of course, we'll never know.
Anyone have a pro comp? Sorry, I didn’t read all the prior posts before posting.
Agree man, people who think Baker is a #1 CB are in for surprises.
Quote:
Tier 2 - Offensive Tackles, Pass-Rusher (4-3 DE or 3-4 OLB)
Although some quarterbacks are proficient scramblers and can make offensive lines better with quick and confident decisions, every team should make protecting its quarterback a top priority.
Pressure can come from any defensive line position, but the most devastating sack specialists are edge-rushers, and that's who offensive tackles are tasked to stop.
Offensive tackles have tremendous positional value in the draft due to the direct impact they often have on the quarterback position.
Quote:
Tier 4 - Cornerback, Safety, Tight End, Center
Although a cornerback's job is to slow down receivers—and more receivers are being put on the field than ever— its positional value isn't as high as it once was.
Simply put, due to innovative spread sets, receivers are going to get open. Yes, having a Darrelle Revis or Richard Sherman exponentially helps a defense, but with motions, trip formations and rub routes, a fine cornerback can be relatively negated throughout the course of a game.
A cornerback is at the mercy of the wide receiver he's covering, someone who's dependent on the signal-caller throwing the football. Therefore, a cornerback—over the long haul—doesn't have as much impact on a game as positions like quarterback, wide receiver or pass-rusher.
Also, today's rules make it so difficult for a cornerback to make plays on a receiver or the ball.
Yes, finding a good one is a luxury, but the positional value isn't there at the top of a draft.
Breaking Down NFL Draft Positional Value into Tiers - ( New Window )
Cute link.
The shitbrained GM of this team took a tier 5 position at #2.
Nothing it out of bounds for this team.
I'm giving Baker a pass for 2019 for two reasons:
1) He was a rookie.
2) Bettcher had him playing zone all year, when his specialty in college was man coverage.
It made very little sense to trade two picks to move up 7 spots to draft a man-cover corner... and then give him to a DC who played him in zone all year. Especially considering there was plenty of other CB talent on the board of similar value as Baker that the Giants could have gotten at pick #38, and they probably would have been better fit in Bettcher's defense.
ALL THAT SAID-- Now that Bettcher is gone, I'm happy that we have Baker. His ceiling was clear in college: he can absolutely be a shutdown corner in a system that plays to his strengths. I'm very encouraged by what Judge has said about adapting the system to the strengths of his players, focusing on what they CAN do, not what they can't. DC Graham seems to have a similarly adaptive style and philosophy. So in general I'm optimistic about Baker in 2020 and beyond.
From watching him in college, I say just man him up on the offense's best WR and let him sink or swim, I think we'd be better off doing that than trying to make him do things he's not good at or very comfortable with.