of 10 million 3 years ago. Sounds like more than it is. Anyone who thought we would only sign him back for 8 or 10 million was wrong. Second tier players are getting paid that now. Williams is worth it. We're definitely signing him back. We've already invested in him by trading those picks.
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
is another botch job by Rotoworld. I wish people would stop sourcing them.
This is what Ralph ACTUALLY said:
Quote:
In fact, the big splash might even come before free agency begins. The Giants are intent on re-signing defensive lineman Leonard Williams, which is the only way to justify the third- and fifth-round picks they sent to the Jets for him (that fifth-rounder becomes a fourth-rounder if the Giants re-sign him before March 18). And that could be costly since Williams has said he wants a "big contract" because he thinks he's a "top-tier interior defensive lineman."
That would put the 25-year-old Williams, at least in his mind, in the $15 million per year range.
Whether he gets that much or something less, he'll still eat up a considerable chunk of the Giants' available cap space. More could be gone if they try to re-sign linebacker Markus Golden, coming off his 10-sack season.
Couldnt disagree more there. Golden is a pretty one dimensional guy. So youre paying him strictly as a pass rusher. And strictly as a pass rusher I dont think hes worth it. I think our perspective is skewed by just how anemic that group has been in recent years. Sacks get you paid, but 10 isnt something to break the bank for.
The opposing argument is he'll only get better with more talent around him, but it still just feels like a bad idea to me.
As well. It looks like Graham wants to use his olb’s in coverage at times and Golden would be a massive liability in any coverage role. He’s not the versatile defender we should be looking for
would the Giants trade for him without agreeing to a new contract first?
This. I've generally been supportive of Gettleman, but I just can't believe he did this. Made no sense to trade for him when he is FA and you're 2-6 on the way to nowhere.
Silly trade from the get-go for a team in the stage the Giants Â
of 10 million 3 years ago. Sounds like more than it is. Anyone who thought we would only sign him back for 8 or 10 million was wrong. Second tier players are getting paid that now. Williams is worth it. We're definitely signing him back. We've already invested in him by trading those picks.
The cap hasn't gone up 50% in 3 years. The 2018 cap was ~170M, the 2020 cap is ~200M.
A 10M cap hit from 2018 would be equivalent to about 11.75M in 2020.
Regardless, the question is if Williams is worth allocating that much money. I'd argue he's a third tier player and their are a bunch of intriguing tackles and ends in UFA this year.
of 10 million 3 years ago. Sounds like more than it is. Anyone who thought we would only sign him back for 8 or 10 million was wrong. Second tier players are getting paid that now. Williams is worth it. We're definitely signing him back. We've already invested in him by trading those picks.
The cap hasn't gone up 50% in 3 years. The 2018 cap was ~170M, the 2020 cap is ~200M.
A 10M cap hit from 2018 would be equivalent to about 11.75M in 2020.
Regardless, the question is if Williams is worth allocating that much money. I'd argue he's a third tier player and their are a bunch of intriguing tackles and ends in UFA this year.
As Chevy Chase said, I was told there would be no math lol. Good post. $15 million is still a lot of $.
Gettleman almost has to sign him. I think there is a good chance that they will come to an agreement but do some wink-wink-nudge-nudge that he won't sign until after free agency to they only have to send a 5th instead of a 4th to the Jets.
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
Gettleman almost has to sign him. I think there is a good chance that they will come to an agreement but do some wink-wink-nudge-nudge that he won't sign until after free agency to they only have to send a 5th instead of a 4th to the Jets.
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
Personally, I feel that the comp picks will not be in play this year as we aren't losing top tier talent and we have money to spend. I don't want to go crazy in FA but at the same time I think it would be pointless to let more guys leave at higher prices than be active in FA.
A lot of people in here don’t understand simple economics Â
Gettleman almost has to sign him. I think there is a good chance that they will come to an agreement but do some wink-wink-nudge-nudge that he won't sign until after free agency to they only have to send a 5th instead of a 4th to the Jets.
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
unless I missed it, the deadline for deciding if the 2021 pick is a 4th or a 5th has not been disclosed.
The deadline is probably April 2021, right before the draft.
How would you feel if the Giants signed Williams to a huge deal, and later in UFA they missed out on a good edge rusher because their cap resources were tied up?
You do agree resources are finite and the Giants should spend the most money on the best players, no?
why not go back to the 43? I don't know about having OLBs more involved in pass coverage, then what? Rush 3? Gotta have at least one OLB who is mostly a pass rusher, and Golden has done a good job at that, and is also still young.
You don't break the bank for him, but you don't break the bank for Williams. But Gettleman will be trying to convince Papa John of his importance considering what they gave up to get him. Or maybe it was Papa John who ordered that trade. Either way, it was poorly thought out. BBI knows better than to trade for a guy in the last year of his contract, especially since no one honestly thought the Giants would be competitive in 2019.
I think a dynamic pass rusher is way more important than a run stuffing 34 DT, considering the other DTs on the team. So, they give up a third this year and a 5th next year for 8 games of his services, or pay him what he demands, or use a tag on him. None seem like wise alternatives.
You aren’t good at evaluating DT play. Stick to your day job.
Just because the DT isn’t warren sapp doesn’t mean he’s not a good player. And a guy like sapp would get 25 million on the open market.
Williams needs help. He’s a solid two way DT who is entering his prime and doesn’t get hurt. Want better ? Good luck you won’t find it on the open market. Want less? Want to pay less? Enjoy that. Also, sacks are like WR TDs. Not necessarily overrated but not the end all be all either.
How would you feel if the Giants signed Williams to a huge deal, and later in UFA they missed out on a good edge rusher because their cap resources were tied up?
You do agree resources are finite and the Giants should spend the most money on the best players, no?
That I do agree with. But signing Williams doesn’t preclude them from signing another player. Plus, where is this elite passrusher? Forget the dude from Jax and BBI will go ape shit at the money the giants would have to pay him anyway.
Yes, it’s fair to compare Williams and his allotment of money to another possible get, but we don’t know where that other player even is or whether he’s available and we NEED another DLineman. Badly.
If this move costed us some passrushing stud? Sure I’d dislike the move too. But no one knows that. Bird in the hand. We need this guy.
why not go back to the 43? I don't know about having OLBs more involved in pass coverage, then what? Rush 3? Gotta have at least one OLB who is mostly a pass rusher, and Golden has done a good job at that, and is also still young.
You don't break the bank for him, but you don't break the bank for Williams. But Gettleman will be trying to convince Papa John of his importance considering what they gave up to get him. Or maybe it was Papa John who ordered that trade. Either way, it was poorly thought out. BBI knows better than to trade for a guy in the last year of his contract, especially since no one honestly thought the Giants would be competitive in 2019.
I think a dynamic pass rusher is way more important than a run stuffing 34 DT, considering the other DTs on the team. So, they give up a third this year and a 5th next year for 8 games of his services, or pay him what he demands, or use a tag on him. None seem like wise alternatives.
Golden is not a dynamic pass rusher, nor can he set an edge, and he doesn’t even have a position in the 4-3. We do need to have an OLB who is mostly a pass rusher but that person has to be a lot better than Golden or this scheme will never work.
That exact point you made is what drives me nuts with fans bitching about the money. Take Oliver vernon. Fans never stopped but what player or players did we lose out on? Was that money truly wasted ? Did we lose out on a guy like JJ Watt? Or some other beast? Nope, not really. Would the giants have been better off spending that money elsewhere and if so, where?
The grass is greener but where is it greener? Never that simple. Doesn’t mean the giants should spend like fools, but the money hand wringing here is so over the top at times, really all the time.
Nowhere does the piece say he’s asking for 15M. Amazing that so many Â
As for the cost, Gettleman knew it would be high when he made the deal, and is clearly ready to fork over a big contract for a guy he sees as worthy of that money.
I wouldn’t have made the trade, but DG clearly felt that we wouldn’t be able to land him in FA, so felt that the cost of a 3 and later 4/5 was a fair price to pay in order to land a really solid DT.
The sad thing is that the team needs SO MUCH in order to benefit from this type of trade. At a minimum we need a top EDGE player to benefit from Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams collapsing the pocket. A top ILB and FS are also crucial or else quick slants over the middle will negate whatever pass rush we develop.
Clearly, landing a top edge player in a trade would have helped the defense more, but where are you gonna land one at near the same price as we paid for Williams?
A case can be made that past comparisons are as relevant as hand wringing because:
The available cap spending free to flood into the market this year is $1.6 Billion. Billion.
Its like a flood of wealthy Martians suddenly comes into your neighborhood with the ability to pay 2x for the same home as last year.
You aren't going to like it - and its feels unfair that house which isnt even close to best in the neighborhood gets more than the top mansion got last years - but its reality.
Williams contract ( and all the 2020 FA) is not a continuous part of the old sample size. He is the next sample over.
That said:
Imo, his contract at any size is not worth it unless they get edge capability as well. imo, I cant tell yet ( because I haven't sorted out the upcoming draft) whether it makes more sense to draft OL and FA defense or the other way around.
What I do know is that one good way to move forward as a team is to get one or more elite units while not having any bottom of the barrel. Our DL unit is close to being elite. Elite DL's require depth and good rotation and position flexibility. So there could be some multiplicative value to investments in this unit.
(Oddly, in most games and competitions; improving the competitive advantages you do have ( Starting pitching for the Mets, etc.) is faster out of the basement than spreading evenly regardless of competitive strengths and weaknesses.)
In sum we want an elite competitive advantage unit at an average unit price. Id be fine with Williams if the edge came from the draft or from guys who were also pressure capable linebackers or safeties.
Once the contract doesn't let us get out in 3-4 years or its in addition to a massive Edge FA contract then id consider it malpractice.
RE: Nowhere does the piece say he’s asking for 15M. Amazing that so many Â
As for the cost, Gettleman knew it would be high when he made the deal, and is clearly ready to fork over a big contract for a guy he sees as worthy of that money.
I wouldn’t have made the trade, but DG clearly felt that we wouldn’t be able to land him in FA, so felt that the cost of a 3 and later 4/5 was a fair price to pay in order to land a really solid DT.
The sad thing is that the team needs SO MUCH in order to benefit from this type of trade. At a minimum we need a top EDGE player to benefit from Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams collapsing the pocket. A top ILB and FS are also crucial or else quick slants over the middle will negate whatever pass rush we develop.
Clearly, landing a top edge player in a trade would have helped the defense more, but where are you gonna land one at near the same price as we paid for Williams?
How does the using the draft picks ensure we land LW?
So you're basically eliminating every other outcome, assuming because fans won't like the price tag the Giants won't pursue the best pass rusher on the market, and because Gettleman traded for Williams he's the best option?
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
RE: A contract like that would make Williams the 6th highest paid DT Â
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.
Yup. I'll bet he gets it, too.
I agree. Of course, much depends on the details.
He's a good player. Add Yannick and another ER and maybe he looks even better.
I like Golden but I think Williams is the better player. Maybe not by much but a bit better.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse.
Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
This is what Ralph ACTUALLY said:
That would put the 25-year-old Williams, at least in his mind, in the $15 million per year range.
Whether he gets that much or something less, he'll still eat up a considerable chunk of the Giants' available cap space. More could be gone if they try to re-sign linebacker Markus Golden, coming off his 10-sack season.
Couldnt disagree more there. Golden is a pretty one dimensional guy. So youre paying him strictly as a pass rusher. And strictly as a pass rusher I dont think hes worth it. I think our perspective is skewed by just how anemic that group has been in recent years. Sacks get you paid, but 10 isnt something to break the bank for.
The opposing argument is he'll only get better with more talent around him, but it still just feels like a bad idea to me.
This. I've generally been supportive of Gettleman, but I just can't believe he did this. Made no sense to trade for him when he is FA and you're 2-6 on the way to nowhere.
Everything this team should be doing should revolve around its draft picks and collecting more of them, not less.
The cap hasn't gone up 50% in 3 years. The 2018 cap was ~170M, the 2020 cap is ~200M.
A 10M cap hit from 2018 would be equivalent to about 11.75M in 2020.
Regardless, the question is if Williams is worth allocating that much money. I'd argue he's a third tier player and their are a bunch of intriguing tackles and ends in UFA this year.
Dareus looks close but he has a small dead cap and isn't getting his number.
Quote:
of 10 million 3 years ago. Sounds like more than it is. Anyone who thought we would only sign him back for 8 or 10 million was wrong. Second tier players are getting paid that now. Williams is worth it. We're definitely signing him back. We've already invested in him by trading those picks.
The cap hasn't gone up 50% in 3 years. The 2018 cap was ~170M, the 2020 cap is ~200M.
A 10M cap hit from 2018 would be equivalent to about 11.75M in 2020.
Regardless, the question is if Williams is worth allocating that much money. I'd argue he's a third tier player and their are a bunch of intriguing tackles and ends in UFA this year.
As Chevy Chase said, I was told there would be no math lol. Good post. $15 million is still a lot of $.
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
Personally, I feel that the comp picks will not be in play this year as we aren't losing top tier talent and we have money to spend. I don't want to go crazy in FA but at the same time I think it would be pointless to let more guys leave at higher prices than be active in FA.
because they were trying to win games to save jobs.
Logical long term planning took a back seat
I also think the Giants will let Golden walk and utilize that as part of the comp pick formula in 2021.
unless I missed it, the deadline for deciding if the 2021 pick is a 4th or a 5th has not been disclosed.
The deadline is probably April 2021, right before the draft.
Grady Jarret is still the comp I think is best; 4/68 with 38 guaranteed.
For a good not great interior lineman who's a space eater and not much of a pass rusher, that's a good comparison.
How would you feel if the Giants signed Williams to a huge deal, and later in UFA they missed out on a good edge rusher because their cap resources were tied up?
You do agree resources are finite and the Giants should spend the most money on the best players, no?
You don't break the bank for him, but you don't break the bank for Williams. But Gettleman will be trying to convince Papa John of his importance considering what they gave up to get him. Or maybe it was Papa John who ordered that trade. Either way, it was poorly thought out. BBI knows better than to trade for a guy in the last year of his contract, especially since no one honestly thought the Giants would be competitive in 2019.
I think a dynamic pass rusher is way more important than a run stuffing 34 DT, considering the other DTs on the team. So, they give up a third this year and a 5th next year for 8 games of his services, or pay him what he demands, or use a tag on him. None seem like wise alternatives.
You aren’t good at evaluating DT play. Stick to your day job.
Just because the DT isn’t warren sapp doesn’t mean he’s not a good player. And a guy like sapp would get 25 million on the open market.
Williams needs help. He’s a solid two way DT who is entering his prime and doesn’t get hurt. Want better ? Good luck you won’t find it on the open market. Want less? Want to pay less? Enjoy that. Also, sacks are like WR TDs. Not necessarily overrated but not the end all be all either.
Quote:
would the Giants trade for him without agreeing to a new contract first?
because they were trying to win games to save jobs.
Logical long term planning took a back seat
I don’t buy that for a second.
And DG is still here despite a 4 win season. He traded for Williams because he wanted to get him in here for a long term deal. Bird in the hand.
Quote:
...
How would you feel if the Giants signed Williams to a huge deal, and later in UFA they missed out on a good edge rusher because their cap resources were tied up?
You do agree resources are finite and the Giants should spend the most money on the best players, no?
That I do agree with. But signing Williams doesn’t preclude them from signing another player. Plus, where is this elite passrusher? Forget the dude from Jax and BBI will go ape shit at the money the giants would have to pay him anyway.
Yes, it’s fair to compare Williams and his allotment of money to another possible get, but we don’t know where that other player even is or whether he’s available and we NEED another DLineman. Badly.
If this move costed us some passrushing stud? Sure I’d dislike the move too. But no one knows that. Bird in the hand. We need this guy.
You don't break the bank for him, but you don't break the bank for Williams. But Gettleman will be trying to convince Papa John of his importance considering what they gave up to get him. Or maybe it was Papa John who ordered that trade. Either way, it was poorly thought out. BBI knows better than to trade for a guy in the last year of his contract, especially since no one honestly thought the Giants would be competitive in 2019.
I think a dynamic pass rusher is way more important than a run stuffing 34 DT, considering the other DTs on the team. So, they give up a third this year and a 5th next year for 8 games of his services, or pay him what he demands, or use a tag on him. None seem like wise alternatives.
Golden is not a dynamic pass rusher, nor can he set an edge, and he doesn’t even have a position in the 4-3. We do need to have an OLB who is mostly a pass rusher but that person has to be a lot better than Golden or this scheme will never work.
The grass is greener but where is it greener? Never that simple. Doesn’t mean the giants should spend like fools, but the money hand wringing here is so over the top at times, really all the time.
As for the cost, Gettleman knew it would be high when he made the deal, and is clearly ready to fork over a big contract for a guy he sees as worthy of that money.
I wouldn’t have made the trade, but DG clearly felt that we wouldn’t be able to land him in FA, so felt that the cost of a 3 and later 4/5 was a fair price to pay in order to land a really solid DT.
The sad thing is that the team needs SO MUCH in order to benefit from this type of trade. At a minimum we need a top EDGE player to benefit from Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams collapsing the pocket. A top ILB and FS are also crucial or else quick slants over the middle will negate whatever pass rush we develop.
Clearly, landing a top edge player in a trade would have helped the defense more, but where are you gonna land one at near the same price as we paid for Williams?
The available cap spending free to flood into the market this year is $1.6 Billion. Billion.
Its like a flood of wealthy Martians suddenly comes into your neighborhood with the ability to pay 2x for the same home as last year.
You aren't going to like it - and its feels unfair that house which isnt even close to best in the neighborhood gets more than the top mansion got last years - but its reality.
Williams contract ( and all the 2020 FA) is not a continuous part of the old sample size. He is the next sample over.
That said:
Imo, his contract at any size is not worth it unless they get edge capability as well. imo, I cant tell yet ( because I haven't sorted out the upcoming draft) whether it makes more sense to draft OL and FA defense or the other way around.
What I do know is that one good way to move forward as a team is to get one or more elite units while not having any bottom of the barrel. Our DL unit is close to being elite. Elite DL's require depth and good rotation and position flexibility. So there could be some multiplicative value to investments in this unit.
(Oddly, in most games and competitions; improving the competitive advantages you do have ( Starting pitching for the Mets, etc.) is faster out of the basement than spreading evenly regardless of competitive strengths and weaknesses.)
In sum we want an elite competitive advantage unit at an average unit price. Id be fine with Williams if the edge came from the draft or from guys who were also pressure capable linebackers or safeties.
Once the contract doesn't let us get out in 3-4 years or its in addition to a massive Edge FA contract then id consider it malpractice.
As for the cost, Gettleman knew it would be high when he made the deal, and is clearly ready to fork over a big contract for a guy he sees as worthy of that money.
I wouldn’t have made the trade, but DG clearly felt that we wouldn’t be able to land him in FA, so felt that the cost of a 3 and later 4/5 was a fair price to pay in order to land a really solid DT.
The sad thing is that the team needs SO MUCH in order to benefit from this type of trade. At a minimum we need a top EDGE player to benefit from Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams collapsing the pocket. A top ILB and FS are also crucial or else quick slants over the middle will negate whatever pass rush we develop.
Clearly, landing a top edge player in a trade would have helped the defense more, but where are you gonna land one at near the same price as we paid for Williams?
How does the using the draft picks ensure we land LW?
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.