You aren’t good at evaluating DT play. Stick to your day job.
Just because the DT isn’t warren sapp doesn’t mean he’s not a good player. And a guy like sapp would get 25 million on the open market.
Williams needs help. He’s a solid two way DT who is entering his prime and doesn’t get hurt. Want better ? Good luck you won’t find it on the open market. Want less? Want to pay less? Enjoy that. Also, sacks are like WR TDs. Not necessarily overrated but not the end all be all either.
This is a good post. LW is a good, young player. He’s good vs the run and pressures the QB. He creates for other players. 15 mil per for that isn’t a bad deal.
So you're basically eliminating every other outcome, assuming because fans won't like the price tag the Giants won't pursue the best pass rusher on the market, and because Gettleman traded for Williams he's the best option?
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
Getting the “best combination of talent and value” in FA is like finding a unicorn in your back yard.
You’re either going to overpay for good players or try to hit the lotto in the bargain bin of FA.
The Giants are probably going to overpay for some guys in FA — and that really isn’t terrible if the player is productive at an impact position of need.
So you're basically eliminating every other outcome, assuming because fans won't like the price tag the Giants won't pursue the best pass rusher on the market, and because Gettleman traded for Williams he's the best option?
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
Getting the “best combination of talent and value” in FA is like finding a unicorn in your back yard.
You’re either going to overpay for good players or try to hit the lotto in the bargain bin of FA.
The Giants are probably going to overpay for some guys in FA — and that really isn’t terrible if the player is productive at an impact position of need.
That's beyond absurd.
LBH, because we can franchise him if we can’t get a deal done. Â
Call it tampering but I always suspected that there may have been some "informal" discussions about $ before deal was finalized. If he is seeking 15, he will settle for less - probaby in 13-14 range. More than we would like but totally outrageous - Yes/No?
As well. It looks like Graham wants to use his olb’s in coverage at times and Golden would be a massive liability in any coverage role. He’s not the versatile defender we should be looking for
Then you don't want guys like Clowney or Yannik here.
As well. It looks like Graham wants to use his olb’s in coverage at times and Golden would be a massive liability in any coverage role. He’s not the versatile defender we should be looking for
Then you don't want guys like Clowney or Yannik here.
Clowney isn’t one dimensional because he can play the run and pass rush, I’ve also seen yannick play man on a rb effectively. Imo, they both offer more versatility than Golden
you need to save that money to spend on difference makers. williams is not that. he's fine but not special. don't sign players to bad deals. let him walk and take the comp pick if that's the money he's going to get
'i like him but at 10-12 per crowd...wont wring my hands about it' Â
you need to save that money to spend on difference makers. williams is not that. he's fine but not special. don't sign players to bad deals. let him walk and take the comp pick if that's the money he's going to get
I agree with your take here. We should either let LW walk - and write it off as a poor trade and the lost picks are a sunk cost - or transition tag him. The TT is expected to be around $12.5M...and hope someone is a sucker and signs LW.
The Jets were not going to re-sign Williams. If he traded him for a 5th from a good team, it would have been a good trade. For a first time GM, he made a great trade. He must have convinced DG there were other interested teams. Giving up a 3rd plus a pick for a possible rental for a bad team.
He was on a 5th year option as a high pick. He was making a lot of money last year. It's a significant number to commit on a tag. My view ~18M for one year of Williams is silly.
Grady Jarret, that is your comp. The market recently spoke on a player with similar production.
you need to save that money to spend on difference makers. williams is not that. he's fine but not special. don't sign players to bad deals. let him walk and take the comp pick if that's the money he's going to get
I agree with your take here. We should either let LW walk - and write it off as a poor trade and the lost picks are a sunk cost - or transition tag him. The TT is expected to be around $12.5M...and hope someone is a sucker and signs LW.
I agree. Don’t throw good money after bad. No way Big Leonard is worth 15 million per year with a significant portion guaranteed . He is did but not a difference maker
RE: RE: A contract like that would make Williams the 6th highest paid DT Â
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.
Vernon wasn’t cap crippling. He got hurt which sucked and we had to suffer through one year of dead money, a year the giants were resetting things anyway, and they traded him for a plus player in Zietler.
He also helped the giants make the playoffs in 2016.
I laugh at the notion that the giants dl "is close to elite" Â
because they weren't stopping the run period IMO, the record of the team at the time wasn't a consideration.
DG and the Giants didn't want to watch us get shredded and liked this lineman, so they went ahead.
Now I believe he will get a contract. What $ they agree to we will see. I do think he is a very solid guy to have on the D.
As for MG, his ten sacks and pressures are great but he wasn't strong to my eyes vs the run.
guess is that we overpay to resign Williams. I like Williams, but don't think he's worth $15M. Just because we have a lot of cap space doesn't mean that we should overpay for Williams or anyone else. That's why I'm also against signing Ngakoue. There will be a huge bidding war for his services.
I like Williams, but we have spent high draft picks on the interior D line- Maybe not Gettleman when it comes to Tomlinson and Hill, but he went early with Lawrence.
Lawrence played well, Tomilnson was inspiring as well last year. Hopefully the new coaching staff can get Hill back on track.
I feel we just have way too many holes to fill to pay Williams this much. Even if it is market price.
RE: RE: LBH, because we can franchise him if we can’t get a deal done. Â
how many posters on the board would have him on their list of priority free agents for the Giants to sign at his projected price tag? my guess is close to zero. unless the team is genuinely getting a significant discount to his market price, he should not be a "priority" because DG made a moronic trade. that 3rd round pick, which basically was given away to earn the team a meaningless first bid option, is a sunk cost. signing him does not return the pick in some fashion. in fact it increases the cost in draft capital. this team has so many holes to fill that the sole question should be the value of the player relative to what else they believe they can get for that money.
if they hadn't traded for williams, he'd be on the same target tier Â
as Arik Armstead and any other top untagged interior DL (Jarran Reed, etc).
I'd personally rather tag him than give him the contract those guys get on the open market. Maybe even tag him twice.
Then decide whether to resign him down the road or let him walk in another offseason to recoup a 3rd round comp pick after getting a motivated contract year under the new staff.
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.
Vernon wasn’t cap crippling. He got hurt which sucked and we had to suffer through one year of dead money, a year the giants were resetting things anyway, and they traded him for a plus player in Zietler.
He also helped the giants make the playoffs in 2016.
Vernon + JPP + Snacks underperforming was cap crippling.
and in some cases, much better, in their careers than Williams has been, and will likely ever be.
And they're examples of why the last GM had to go.
So good to see people are still trying to justify this train wreck of a trade. I'm sure Mara is probably sitting in an office with his brother somewhere trying to do the same, while the Giants struggle to see if they can get past single digits in wins this year.
Unit Ability to have a strong rotation all season long
Unit Ability to play several scheme variations
Multiple players able to play the run and the pass
Unit Durability
Unit that doesn't take plays off
Its the closest unit to elite we have and the only one that could be above NFL average with moves to deepen or expand its skill sets.
My request was to evaluate using a broader view of the Units future and its greater than average part in making it harder for opponents to do well.
IF you wish to trade scornful remarks we can do that. Im bored, so its fine by me; but its up to you
RE: RE: RE: LBH, because we can franchise him if we can’t get a deal done. Â
Who looked very good. Other than that there isn’t much top end talent on DL. Of the 3 units on D, I guess that unit is the closest to elite which isn’t much since the other 2 are bottom of the league type units.
Disnt meant to offend or bother you in any way. The team sucks. This trade was awful and was a step back. And for me, throwing a huge contract at Williams makes it worse. On draft day? It gets even worse as we see the pool of talent on the board when the jets get our player with that high 3rd.
The Jets were not going to re-sign Williams. If he traded him for a 5th from a good team, it would have been a good trade. For a first time GM, he made a great trade. He must have convinced DG there were other interested teams. Giving up a 3rd plus a pick for a possible rental for a bad team.
He must have convinced DG there were other interested teams?
Hahahahahaha if he takes a pay cut after a sucker GM for a loser team traded for him, he should fire his agent.
Spot on. I've mentioned this several times over the last few months. Team LW should be asking for AT LEAST $17M to start. If not, they are doing LW a terrible disservice and not using all the available market information...
Williams is a good player but they pissed away too much to get a guy who would need a huge contract. It just didn’t make any sense to do it on this team that has massive holes at every unit.
This is a stacked class at WR and we need one (Id cut Tate - another terrible move). There will be a few Stud WRs on the board with that 3rd pick. We could have had one on a cheap deal instead we’re talking about overpaying for Williams.
Quote:
would pay me 15 mil to be almost good at my job.
You aren’t good at evaluating DT play. Stick to your day job.
Just because the DT isn’t warren sapp doesn’t mean he’s not a good player. And a guy like sapp would get 25 million on the open market.
Williams needs help. He’s a solid two way DT who is entering his prime and doesn’t get hurt. Want better ? Good luck you won’t find it on the open market. Want less? Want to pay less? Enjoy that. Also, sacks are like WR TDs. Not necessarily overrated but not the end all be all either.
This is a good post. LW is a good, young player. He’s good vs the run and pressures the QB. He creates for other players. 15 mil per for that isn’t a bad deal.
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
Getting the “best combination of talent and value” in FA is like finding a unicorn in your back yard.
You’re either going to overpay for good players or try to hit the lotto in the bargain bin of FA.
The Giants are probably going to overpay for some guys in FA — and that really isn’t terrible if the player is productive at an impact position of need.
- the Giants have had a very bad defense
- some combination of better players (plus other factors) is part of improving the defense
The mere presence of Williams wasn't the only missing piece. More is needed.
Gettleman's job is to acquire the best talent the budget will allow for -- that's not pre-determined to include Williams.
A number of better combinations might exist, and Gettleman should pursue all scenarios.
Quote:
So you're basically eliminating every other outcome, assuming because fans won't like the price tag the Giants won't pursue the best pass rusher on the market, and because Gettleman traded for Williams he's the best option?
I hope the point is to collect the best combination of talent and value that fits in the budget.
Getting the “best combination of talent and value” in FA is like finding a unicorn in your back yard.
You’re either going to overpay for good players or try to hit the lotto in the bargain bin of FA.
The Giants are probably going to overpay for some guys in FA — and that really isn’t terrible if the player is productive at an impact position of need.
That's beyond absurd.
Then you don't want guys like Clowney or Yannik here.
It's projected to be $15.5M.
Eek, tried to do that in my head based on memory.
I think it's actually closer to 17.75M.
How could this possibly be worth doing?
I am clearly missing something.
&17m+ to shell out is leverage?
Quote:
As well. It looks like Graham wants to use his olb’s in coverage at times and Golden would be a massive liability in any coverage role. He’s not the versatile defender we should be looking for
Then you don't want guys like Clowney or Yannik here.
Clowney isn’t one dimensional because he can play the run and pass rush, I’ve also seen yannick play man on a rb effectively. Imo, they both offer more versatility than Golden
I agree with your take here. We should either let LW walk - and write it off as a poor trade and the lost picks are a sunk cost - or transition tag him. The TT is expected to be around $12.5M...and hope someone is a sucker and signs LW.
Grady Jarret, that is your comp. The market recently spoke on a player with similar production.
Quote:
you need to save that money to spend on difference makers. williams is not that. he's fine but not special. don't sign players to bad deals. let him walk and take the comp pick if that's the money he's going to get
I agree with your take here. We should either let LW walk - and write it off as a poor trade and the lost picks are a sunk cost - or transition tag him. The TT is expected to be around $12.5M...and hope someone is a sucker and signs LW.
I agree. Don’t throw good money after bad. No way Big Leonard is worth 15 million per year with a significant portion guaranteed . He is did but not a difference maker
Quote:
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.
Vernon wasn’t cap crippling. He got hurt which sucked and we had to suffer through one year of dead money, a year the giants were resetting things anyway, and they traded him for a plus player in Zietler.
He also helped the giants make the playoffs in 2016.
DG and the Giants didn't want to watch us get shredded and liked this lineman, so they went ahead.
Now I believe he will get a contract. What $ they agree to we will see. I do think he is a very solid guy to have on the D.
As for MG, his ten sacks and pressures are great but he wasn't strong to my eyes vs the run.
I like Williams, but we have spent high draft picks on the interior D line- Maybe not Gettleman when it comes to Tomlinson and Hill, but he went early with Lawrence.
Lawrence played well, Tomilnson was inspiring as well last year. Hopefully the new coaching staff can get Hill back on track.
I feel we just have way too many holes to fill to pay Williams this much. Even if it is market price.
Quote:
That is OUR leverage. He has some, we have some.
&17m+ to shell out is leverage?
LBH, I didn’t realize that was the cost. You’re right; we don’t have that leverage.
NEWS AT 11!
Were you all born yesterday?
I'd personally rather tag him than give him the contract those guys get on the open market. Maybe even tag him twice.
Then decide whether to resign him down the road or let him walk in another offseason to recoup a 3rd round comp pick after getting a motivated contract year under the new staff.
Quote:
In comment 14806720 nyjuggernaut2 said:
Quote:
in the NFL in regards to annual salary. Five guys ahead of him would be Aaron Donald, Fletcher Cox, Grady Jarrett, Geno Atkins and Jurrel Casey. Right below the $15 mil annual mark are Marcel Dareus, Linval Joseph, Akiem Hicks and Sheldon Richardson.
Giants are in such a tough situation with this. On one hand, I don’t think Leonard Williams is the 6th best DT in the league, but on the other hand letting him walk means the Giants gave up a 3rd round pick for nothing. Gettlemen is already getting slammed for this trade, and letting him walk would make it even worse. Top DT Annual Salaries - ( New Window )
You are absolutely right, but you don't compound the problem by giving him a cap crippling contract that makes him Olivier Vernon 2.0.
Vernon wasn’t cap crippling. He got hurt which sucked and we had to suffer through one year of dead money, a year the giants were resetting things anyway, and they traded him for a plus player in Zietler.
He also helped the giants make the playoffs in 2016.
Vernon + JPP + Snacks underperforming was cap crippling.
Always this.
And they're examples of why the last GM had to go.
So good to see people are still trying to justify this train wreck of a trade. I'm sure Mara is probably sitting in an office with his brother somewhere trying to do the same, while the Giants struggle to see if they can get past single digits in wins this year.
The guy in charge should be fired just for this deal.
He’s a good player. If he’s your 3rd best DL you’re in good shape. You don’t pay your #3 DL that kind of money.
And this DL close to elite? Maybe if we add 3 elite guys.
Unit Ability to have a strong rotation all season long
Unit Ability to play several scheme variations
Multiple players able to play the run and the pass
Unit Durability
Unit that doesn't take plays off
Its the closest unit to elite we have and the only one that could be above NFL average with moves to deepen or expand its skill sets.
My request was to evaluate using a broader view of the Units future and its greater than average part in making it harder for opponents to do well.
IF you wish to trade scornful remarks we can do that. Im bored, so its fine by me; but its up to you
Quote:
In comment 14806789 yatqb said:
Quote:
That is OUR leverage. He has some, we have some.
&17m+ to shell out is leverage?
LBH, I didn’t realize that was the cost. You’re right; we don’t have that leverage.
Yep I agree
Hahahahahaha if he takes a pay cut after a sucker GM for a loser team traded for him, he should fire his agent.
The guy in charge should be fired just for this deal.
He’s a good player. If he’s your 3rd best DL you’re in good shape. You don’t pay your #3 DL that kind of money.
And this DL close to elite? Maybe if we add 3 elite guys.
I wish I could say this was exaggerating the truth but I cannot.
Disnt meant to offend or bother you in any way. The team sucks. This trade was awful and was a step back. And for me, throwing a huge contract at Williams makes it worse. On draft day? It gets even worse as we see the pool of talent on the board when the jets get our player with that high 3rd.
He must have convinced DG there were other interested teams?
Who the hell were we bidding on...Reggie White?
Thx KWALL
Don’t get hung up over the draft picks. They are gone. It is like dead money.
Quote:
In the 13-14 million range ultimately
Hahahahahaha if he takes a pay cut after a sucker GM for a loser team traded for him, he should fire his agent.
Spot on. I've mentioned this several times over the last few months. Team LW should be asking for AT LEAST $17M to start. If not, they are doing LW a terrible disservice and not using all the available market information...
This is a stacked class at WR and we need one (Id cut Tate - another terrible move). There will be a few Stud WRs on the board with that 3rd pick. We could have had one on a cheap deal instead we’re talking about overpaying for Williams.