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GBN's Colin Lindsay: "Giants Draft Principles"

M.S. : 2/10/2020 6:34 am
Several interesting thoughts/comments regarding Dave Gettleman, team speed (which, of course, sucks) and the luck-of-the-draw nature of the Draft, especially as it pertains to this year's top OTs.

My own wild guess is that the Giants are gonna surprise a lot of people at #4 and select CeeDee Lamb, WR out of Oklahoma.

Link - ( New Window )
So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 6:48 am : link
We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.
RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
section125 : 2/10/2020 6:55 am : link
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.


And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.
RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
joeinpa : 2/10/2020 7:01 am : link
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.


I disagree. As always in the end, ownership will hold Gettleman responsible for failure or credit him for success.

Did Reese write that?  
WillVAB : 2/10/2020 7:13 am : link
That philosophy is exactly why the team is in the position it is in today.

A WR at 4 would be a throw the remote pick. The problem hasnít been defenses stacking the box. The problem has been defenses getting pressure rushing 3 or 4 because the OL sucks.

On defense itís back to the old coverage LB point. Thatís not why the defense struggled. They struggled because they couldnít generate pressure. If you want to nail down the problem coverage area it wouldnít even be LB, it would be slot corner. No slot corner is worth taking 4 overall.
RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 7:14 am : link
In comment 14807764 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.


The truth is that the Giants have been a terrible team for a long time, and with the possible exception of perhaps getting our QB of the future, Dave Gettleman has done an equally terrible job as GM. In fact, you could make a case that in his two years on the job he's actually made things worse.

Maybe you're fine with Colin making more excuses for him. Maybe you're okay with a steady stream of questionable, head-scratching free agent signings, trades, and draft picks. And maybe you're okay with staying the course, because no one should really be blamed for 9-23...that's just "how it is." Sorry, but I'm not fine or okay with any of those things.

You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.
The team is in better shape  
mdthedream : 2/10/2020 7:37 am : link
now. It is a rebuild and we have some nice young pieces. This year is important seeing we have salary cap space and pick early again.
RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Ira : 2/10/2020 7:37 am : link
In comment 14807772 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14807764 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.



The truth is that the Giants have been a terrible team for a long time, and with the possible exception of perhaps getting our QB of the future, Dave Gettleman has done an equally terrible job as GM. In fact, you could make a case that in his two years on the job he's actually made things worse.

Maybe you're fine with Colin making more excuses for him. Maybe you're okay with a steady stream of questionable, head-scratching free agent signings, trades, and draft picks. And maybe you're okay with staying the course, because no one should really be blamed for 9-23...that's just "how it is." Sorry, but I'm not fine or okay with any of those things.

You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.


Excuses? Pardon me, but I just don't remember when the last time (before 2019) that the Giants drafted 3 potential starters in the 4th and 5th rounds. Ok, when was the last time they drafted 2 potential starters in those rounds? And this was the same year we drafted a very good young qb and a player who will anchor our defensive line for years in the future.
RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
section125 : 2/10/2020 7:47 am : link
In comment 14807772 Klaatu said:
Quote:


You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.


He's been fine on the draft. He's been below average on FAs. I think the new coaching staff will make a world of difference with the players they have. Have you ever looked at the players other teams are winning with - the no-names along the lines, for example?
Now the Giants ILBs are awful, that is true. The oline under performs without doubt. But how the hell didn't the previous coaching staff use Barkley correctly? If you cannot get that right, how do you expect the mundane players to excel?

I look at the names for GM that were touted by BBI and Dorsey is the 1st that comes to mind...people losing sleep because the Browns jumped on him before the Giants had a chance! How did that work out?

Not saying Gettleman has been great, in fact many of his FAs have been bad. And yes, if he does it again, good night. But let's see what Judge and the coaching staff can do.
RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
NikkiMac : 2/10/2020 8:01 am : link
In comment 14807772 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14807764 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:

I respectfully disagree the coaching has been terrible and the Giants have a lot of young talent , a couple of good FA signings and a decent draft with Jones in his second year progressing the arrow is definitely pointing up ...... if they start winning games theyíll gain confidence and they are going to be a tough out this talk that they have no talent and they suck is hogwash ............


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.



The truth is that the Giants have been a terrible team for a long time, and with the possible exception of perhaps getting our QB of the future, Dave Gettleman has done an equally terrible job as GM. In fact, you could make a case that in his two years on the job he's actually made things worse.

Maybe you're fine with Colin making more excuses for him. Maybe you're okay with a steady stream of questionable, head-scratching free agent signings, trades, and draft picks. And maybe you're okay with staying the course, because no one should really be blamed for 9-23...that's just "how it is." Sorry, but I'm not fine or okay with any of those things.

You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.
Agree with Colin on this point...  
Jim in Tampa : 2/10/2020 8:02 am : link
"Nothing drives me battier than when I hear from people saying that the Giants canít afford to do this or that in the draft because we have too many holes to fill!"

Every year that's the mantra of the "We Need To Trade Down to Get More Picks" posters.

And even though I agree that THIS YEAR the Giants may be in a great position to trade down, I would also be OK with them staying put and taking either Okudah or their top-rated WR, rather than them forcing the pick by taking an OT or ER, just to fill a need.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
NikkiMac : 2/10/2020 8:03 am : link
In comment 14807788 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
In comment 14807772 Klaatu said:


Quote:


In comment 14807764 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14807762 Klaatu said............


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.



The truth is that the Giants have been a terrible team for a long time, and with the possible exception of perhaps getting our QB of the future, Dave Gettleman has done an equally terrible job as GM. In fact, you could make a case that in his two years on the job he's actually made things worse.

Maybe you're fine with Colin making more excuses for him. Maybe you're okay with a steady stream of questionable, head-scratching free agent signings, trades, and draft picks. And maybe you're okay with staying the course, because no one should really be blamed for 9-23...that's just "how it is." Sorry, but I'm not fine or okay with any of those things.

You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.


I respectfully disagree the coaching has been terrible and the Giants have a lot of young talent , a couple of good FA signings and a decent draft with Jones in his second year progressing the arrow is definitely pointing up ...... if they start winning games theyíll gain confidence and they are going to be a tough out this talk that they have no talent and they suck is hogwash ............

RE: RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 8:04 am : link
In comment 14807778 Ira said:
Quote:

Excuses? Pardon me, but I just don't remember when the last time (before 2019) that the Giants drafted 3 potential starters in the 4th and 5th rounds. Ok, when was the last time they drafted 2 potential starters in those rounds? And this was the same year we drafted a very good young qb and a player who will anchor our defensive line for years in the future.


And yet, the offensive line is still a mess, with no starting-caliber OC or RT on the roster, two very average OG's, and an overpaid LT who's arguably the worst in the league.

The pass-rush is virtually non-existent, and much of the fanbase is advocating signing another free agent who may or may not turn out to be Olivier Vernon 2.0

The Williams trade cost us a high 3rd round pick, plus a day three pick next year, and if he's signed, it puts us in a precarious position with Dalvin Tomlinson, who's a free agent next year. Just how much of the cap do you want to tie up in two DT's who offer little as pass-rushers?

As for "potential starters," they get drafted every year, in almost every round. Every player has "potential." Then the bullets start flying and potential runs for cover.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
NikkiMac : 2/10/2020 8:08 am : link
In comment 14807791 Klaatu said:
[quote] In comment 14807778 Ira said:


Quote:



Excuses? Pardon me, but I just don't remember when the last time (before 2019) that the Giants drafted 3 potential starters in the 4th and 5th rounds. Ok, when was the last time they drafted 2 potential starters in those rounds? And this was the same year we drafted a very good young qb and a player who will anchor our defensive line for years in the future.



And yet, the offensive line is still a mess, with no starting-caliber OC or RT on the roster, two very average OG's, and an overpaid LT who's arguably the worst in the league.

The pass-rush is virtually non-existent, and much of the fanbase is advocating signing another free agent who may or may not turn out to be Olivier Vernon 2.0

The Williams trade cost us a high 3rd round pick, plus a day three pick next year, and if he's signed, it puts us in a precarious position with Dalvin Tomlinson, who's a free agent next year. Just how much of the cap do you want to tie up in two DT's who offer little as pass-rushers?

As for "potential starters," they get drafted every year, in almost every round. Every player has "potential." Then the bullets start flying and potential runs for cover. [/quote

I still believe Williams is not here just for his pass rush but as a run stopper also and I donít think the Giants will get any player of his caliber in the third round oh wait they have such a good history with 3rd round picks
Giants need to get away a little bit from the Reese WR/CB  
Chris684 : 2/10/2020 8:11 am : link
emphasis and place more on OL/LB/S, particularly up the middle of the field. We are overdue for a dominant type of player at Center, MLB or FS.
You guys are hilarious - two drafts removed and you're still  
jcn56 : 2/10/2020 8:19 am : link
knocking Reese. What has Gettleman done to give you the impression he's any better?

Here's a hint - the same guys scouting players for Reese are still working for the team. If the results haven't improved, maybe you should consider starting there.
RE: Giants need to get away a little bit from the Reese WR/CB  
Jim in Tampa : 2/10/2020 8:20 am : link
In comment 14807797 Chris684 said:
Quote:
emphasis and place more on OL/LB/S, particularly up the middle of the field. We are overdue for a dominant type of player at Center, MLB or FS.

Perhaps in other rounds or in a trade down, but I don't think that there's a OL/LB/S worthy of the 4th overall pick. You don't force a pick that high because of need.
Of all our desperate needs...  
M.S. : 2/10/2020 8:23 am : link

...WR is NOT one of them, at least not compared with OT, C, EDGE, ILB, S.

But IMO, I believe CeeDee Lamb is the very best non-QB player on the Board at #4 assuming Chase Young and Jeff Okudah are gone before our pick.
When  
mdthedream : 2/10/2020 8:42 am : link
you have no money the last two years its hard to find really good free agents. I know the OT didn't pan out but not a lot of teams are letting them go. Also he had surgery last year.
section125  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 8:43 am : link
I don't think he's been all that fine in the draft. He threw positional value out the window to draft Barkley, with Chubb and Nelson still on the board (which to me was a repeat of the 2014 draft, with OBJ instead of Donald or Martin, or 2016, when the Giants passed on Tunsil and Decker to draft Eli Apple).

Hernandez and Carter were okay as rookies, but both regressed in their second years. We'll see if that was a product of bad coaching, or if they're just not that good.

B.J. Hill was okay as a rookie, but regressed heavily in his second year, so much so that I think his regression was the impetus for Gettleman to trade for Williams.

Kyle Lauletta is an Eagle now, and R.J. McIntosh has been a non-factor.

I don't have a problem with Jones. If you believe the guy is a franchise QB, you draft him when you can, and you don't wait until maybe you can draft him later.

No problem with Lawrence, either, however I probably would have drafted Andre Dillard there. Trading up for Baker and passing on Jawaan Taylor was a mistake, in my opinion (especially after passing on Dillard), because, again, positional value was ignored. Funny how Seattle drafted an OT at #37 with one of the picks they got from us.

Ximines, Love, Connelly, Slayton, and Ballantine were all good value picks when they were chosen. No problems there. However, waiting until the 7th round to address OT, when you knew Solder had underperformed the year before and you were also counting on a guy coming off back surgery to man the right side of your O-Line was unforgivable, as was not even looking at Centers until the UDFA signings began.

So, yes, his drafting has been better than his free agent signings, but his bar is so low with regard to free agency (and I'd argue his trades, too), that if would be pretty hard to do worse.
RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
bw in dc : 2/10/2020 8:47 am : link
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.


So true. Now we have a ďit takes a village approachĒ at Jints Central and weíre the only team in the league where the GM is merely a passenger in the player acquisition process...unbelievable.

That article was the height of silliness...
I just think the philosophy/principle angle is out of whack  
jcn56 : 2/10/2020 8:56 am : link
Talk all you want about winning at the LOS - when you build a team that trades away a stable if underperforming Brett Jones to leave Halapio and Pulley in place at C, expect Remmers to be the solution at RT, and build a team with exactly 1 credible pass rusher (on a one year, 'prove it' deal), then either you can't claim that games are won at the LOS, or you have no idea where the LOS is and what positions man it.
So if no one is to blame  
Tony in Tampa : 2/10/2020 9:09 am : link
and the Giants just have to trust their board which they meticulously put together, why do teams like: GB and Pitts and Baltimore seem to have solid drafts every year and are contenders year after year? And the Giants and Cardinals and Clev are a continuous shit show. Are they all following the same process?

Or do the good teams just have a better FO and have accountability for mistakes and fix them.
RE: So if no one is to blame  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/10/2020 9:31 am : link
In comment 14807859 Tony in Tampa said:
Quote:
and the Giants just have to trust their board which they meticulously put together, why do teams like: GB and Pitts and Baltimore seem to have solid drafts every year and are contenders year after year? And the Giants and Cardinals and Clev are a continuous shit show. Are they all following the same process?

Or do the good teams just have a better FO and have accountability for mistakes and fix them.


I'd lay good money that both Pitt and Balt have invested far more draft picks in OL and front 7 D players over the last 15 years, especially higher draft picks.

I did this analysis a decade ago and it's just beginning to change under DG.
I wouldn't go WR at 4 or even if we slide back  
JerryNicklebag : 2/10/2020 9:33 am : link
to 5-6-7, I would however go after Amari Cooper as our "big splash" on the offensive side of the ball.

On defense you have to add at least a safety, multiple linebackers and a veteran corner to work with the youngens.

This would allow them to focus on either BPA at the top of the round and fill holes with the rest.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/10/2020 9:41 am : link
In comment 14807793 NikkiMac said:
Quote:
I still believe Williams is not here just for his pass rush but as a run stopper also and I donít think the Giants will get any player of his caliber in the third round oh wait they have such a good history with 3rd round picks

So because they were bad enough drafting in the 3rd round that the previous GM got fired, they should just give those picks away now even though the new GM appears to be a much better evaluator in the draft than in FA?

I guess this is one path toward being able to continue blaming Reese for Gettleman's mediocrity: give DG a pass on trading away picks that Reese might have blown. Just because our previous GM had grown increasingly ineffective with the draft doesn't mean those picks are worthless on their own. If you don't have a GM who you trust to make solid selections at the top of the 3rd round, get a new GM, don't get rid of the picks themselves.
RE: RE: So if no one is to blame  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/10/2020 9:42 am : link
In comment 14807875 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14807859 Tony in Tampa said:


Quote:


and the Giants just have to trust their board which they meticulously put together, why do teams like: GB and Pitts and Baltimore seem to have solid drafts every year and are contenders year after year? And the Giants and Cardinals and Clev are a continuous shit show. Are they all following the same process?

Or do the good teams just have a better FO and have accountability for mistakes and fix them.



I'd lay good money that both Pitt and Balt have invested far more draft picks in OL and front 7 D players over the last 15 years, especially higher draft picks.

I did this analysis a decade ago and it's just beginning to change under DG.

It's beginning to change on the DL, but for the OL, Gettleman's use of the draft is behind Reese's.
RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Bill L : 2/10/2020 9:46 am : link
In comment 14807838 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



So true. Now we have a ďit takes a village approachĒ at Jints Central and weíre the only team in the league where the GM is merely a passenger in the player acquisition process...unbelievable.

That article was the height of silliness...

I think the "village" conclusion has some merit. Bettcher and Shurmer must have had some influence on FA signings, given the plethora of players (Cardinals) with whom Bettcher had familiarity.
Gettleman  
AcidTest : 2/10/2020 9:46 am : link
isn't the only person responsible for the draft picks and FA signings. Everyone knows it's a collaborative process. But as GM he has a ton of influence. I have said before I am fine with his drafts, but his FA signings have been poor.

I think it's strange that the Giants haven't traded down in any round since 2006, but was fine with them staying at #2 and taking Barkley. I didn't see any point to them trading down last year because they had 12 picks.

I'd be stunned if they took a WR at #4.
RE:  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 9:51 am : link
In comment 14807793 NikkiMac said:
Quote:

I still believe Williams is not here just for his pass rush but as a run stopper also and I donít think the Giants will get any player of his caliber in the third round oh wait they have such a good history with 3rd round picks


So, by your logic the Giants should always trade away their 3rd round picks because they haven't hit on any in a long time? Maybe they should try and trade Carter, Hill, and Ximines, too? Why wait to see if they develop?

You know, they have hit on 4th round picks before, so maybe they should just swap threes for fours every year?

As for Williams, "a player of his caliber" might be worth a 3rd round pick. Adding a 4th or 5th would be gilding the lily. Overpaying for him would be ridiculous. He's Chris Canty with two good eyes, but we only paid Canty, we didn't sacrifice any picks to get him.
Star Power is really important  
Hot Rod in St Cloud : 2/10/2020 9:52 am : link
You can't have everything. You have to have some super heroes on your team. That's why you need to get those types in the draft. You can always fill your needs in free agency as long as you don't have too many holes to fill. You simply can't afford to pay the super stars in free agency, so you maximize your expenditures by drafting for the guys who have a chance to become super stars.

While I agree we had to trade him when we did, losing a super star like Beckham hurt. Teams had to plan against him. Currently, we have only one stud on the team, and that's Barkley.

KC is a great team because they have Tyreek Hill. No one can cover him, he's just too fast. They also have Mahomes, and no onc can stop him either, not even a great defensive team like SF.

The great teams have those types of players, the ones no one can stop. When we had L. Taylor we had the man no one could stop and it made our defense essentially undefendable.

I don't know if there's such a WR in this draft or not, but I do know that we must draft a super stud or two if we can and if we can trade down and still do that, then it makes sense to do so.

While our Oline is less than stellar, trading down too far to draft for an obvious need like our offensive line because we can fill more holes is a mistake if you miss out on the super stud.

Since our defense is even worse than our offensive line, I think there is a good chance we draft someone like the LB Simmons who could be the super hero we so desperately lack. If we can still draft him by trading down, even better!
If the Giants believe that player is Okuda at CB, then the same philosophy applies.

According to the draft grades supplied by the NFL combine, the top 6 graded players are as follows:

DE Young 7.4
DT Brown 7.1
CB Okuda 7.15
LB Simmons 7.08
QB Burrow 7.97
OL Wills 7.06

The top two WRs are Lamb and Jeudy at 6.86

Based upon these grades the 3 most likely choices for the Giants will be Okuda, Simmons, or Wills.
RE: Gettleman  
The_Boss : 2/10/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 14807892 AcidTest said:
Quote:
isn't the only person responsible for the draft picks and FA signings. Everyone knows it's a collaborative process. But as GM he has a ton of influence. I have said before I am fine with his drafts, but his FA signings have been poor.

I think it's strange that the Giants haven't traded down in any round since 2006, but was fine with them staying at #2 and taking Barkley. I didn't see any point to them trading down last year because they had 12 picks.

I'd be stunned if they took a WR at #4.


Look at just about every player rating list today. While acknowledging they likely will change between now and the draft, 1-3 figure to stay Young, Okudah, Burrow. At/around 4, as of today, a WR (Jeudy) is probably ahead of any of the OTís and Simmons. The one guy ahead of them all isnít a fit at all (Brown). Iíd prefer not to take a WR, but donít dismiss it entirely.
RE: Did Reese write that?  
Mattman : 2/10/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14807771 WillVAB said:
Quote:
That philosophy is exactly why the team is in the position it is in today.

A WR at 4 would be a throw the remote pick. The problem hasnít been defenses stacking the box. The problem has been defenses getting pressure rushing 3 or 4 because the OL sucks.

On defense itís back to the old coverage LB point. Thatís not why the defense struggled. They struggled because they couldnít generate pressure. If you want to nail down the problem coverage area it wouldnít even be LB, it would be slot corner. No slot corner is worth taking 4 overall.


Marc Ross on NFL network projected Jerry Jeudy, WR to the giants...
RE: RE: Did Reese write that?  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 10:08 am : link
In comment 14807920 Mattman said:
Quote:
In comment 14807771 WillVAB said:


Quote:


That philosophy is exactly why the team is in the position it is in today.

A WR at 4 would be a throw the remote pick. The problem hasnít been defenses stacking the box. The problem has been defenses getting pressure rushing 3 or 4 because the OL sucks.

On defense itís back to the old coverage LB point. Thatís not why the defense struggled. They struggled because they couldnít generate pressure. If you want to nail down the problem coverage area it wouldnít even be LB, it would be slot corner. No slot corner is worth taking 4 overall.



Marc Ross on NFL network projected Jerry Jeudy, WR to the giants...


That kind of thinking is probably why he's on the NFL network now, and not still with the Giants.
I would think the DG haters and skeptics  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/10/2020 10:11 am : link
would have jumped on Colin's take that DG is more heavily involved in the early selections...

Suggesting perhaps that Love, Connelly, D. Slayton and Ballentine came through the larger process.
RE: Star Power is really important  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/10/2020 10:18 am : link
In comment 14807902 Hot Rod in St Cloud said:
Quote:
You can't have everything. You have to have some super heroes on your team. That's why you need to get those types in the draft. You can always fill your needs in free agency as long as you don't have too many holes to fill. You simply can't afford to pay the super stars in free agency, so you maximize your expenditures by drafting for the guys who have a chance to become super stars.

While I agree we had to trade him when we did, losing a super star like Beckham hurt. Teams had to plan against him. Currently, we have only one stud on the team, and that's Barkley.

KC is a great team because they have Tyreek Hill. No one can cover him, he's just too fast. They also have Mahomes, and no onc can stop him either, not even a great defensive team like SF.

The great teams have those types of players, the ones no one can stop. When we had L. Taylor we had the man no one could stop and it made our defense essentially undefendable.

I don't know if there's such a WR in this draft or not, but I do know that we must draft a super stud or two if we can and if we can trade down and still do that, then it makes sense to do so.

While our Oline is less than stellar, trading down too far to draft for an obvious need like our offensive line because we can fill more holes is a mistake if you miss out on the super stud.

Since our defense is even worse than our offensive line, I think there is a good chance we draft someone like the LB Simmons who could be the super hero we so desperately lack. If we can still draft him by trading down, even better!
If the Giants believe that player is Okuda at CB, then the same philosophy applies.

According to the draft grades supplied by the NFL combine, the top 6 graded players are as follows:

DE Young 7.4
DT Brown 7.1
CB Okuda 7.15
LB Simmons 7.08
QB Burrow 7.97
OL Wills 7.06

The top two WRs are Lamb and Jeudy at 6.86

Based upon these grades the 3 most likely choices for the Giants will be Okuda, Simmons, or Wills.


By NFL.com's player grades, the Giants would NEVER have taken Jones with his 6.3 grade at 6 overall last year, so there's that.

They wanted a QB. This year they may want an OT or ER, and "fall in love" with one of them, if they haven't already.
RE: RE: Did Reese write that?  
AcidTest : 2/10/2020 10:31 am : link
In comment 14807920 Mattman said:
Quote:
In comment 14807771 WillVAB said:


Quote:


That philosophy is exactly why the team is in the position it is in today.

A WR at 4 would be a throw the remote pick. The problem hasnít been defenses stacking the box. The problem has been defenses getting pressure rushing 3 or 4 because the OL sucks.

On defense itís back to the old coverage LB point. Thatís not why the defense struggled. They struggled because they couldnít generate pressure. If you want to nail down the problem coverage area it wouldnít even be LB, it would be slot corner. No slot corner is worth taking 4 overall.



Marc Ross on NFL network projected Jerry Jeudy, WR to the giants...


That's exactly who he and Reese would take. DG has a different view. My guess is edge rusher or OT if we don't trade down. I can't imagine that the Giants will Jeudy as the fourth best player.
Please don't say we've drafted "starters"  
WillieYoung : 2/10/2020 10:32 am : link
in the 4th and 5th rounds. The fact that guys start on the 2019 Giants doesn't necessarily make them NFL starters. Do you really Love would have seen the field on the 2007 Giants? Slayton may be the real deal but would he have started in 2011? Or seen significant playing time? I'm not sure BJ Hill and Hernandez regressed in 2019 as much as they simply failed to improve because they were handed jobs in 2018.
RE: Please don't say we've drafted  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/10/2020 11:29 am : link
In comment 14807948 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
in the 4th and 5th rounds. The fact that guys start on the 2019 Giants doesn't necessarily make them NFL starters. Do you really Love would have seen the field on the 2007 Giants? Slayton may be the real deal but would he have started in 2011? Or seen significant playing time? I'm not sure BJ Hill and Hernandez regressed in 2019 as much as they simply failed to improve because they were handed jobs in 2018.


Willie you forget the marginal.players the Giants trotted out to play DB in 2007. The starting FS was James Butler, Aaron Ross a just OK rookie played CB, RW McQuarters who stunk got plenty of playing time too as injuries decimated the "starters" like Sam Madison, who was also well past his peak days.

Pass rush made that secondary...

Love could've got burn then, pretty easily.
That was a very good article  
Bill2 : 2/10/2020 11:55 am : link
Made thoughtful points about how to look at the draft

Made other thoughtful points about what the posters around us default to in their thinking

Thanks MS
RE: You guys are hilarious - two drafts removed and you're still  
trueblueinpw : 2/10/2020 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14807807 jcn56 said:
Quote:
knocking Reese. What has Gettleman done to give you the impression he's any better?

Here's a hint - the same guys scouting players for Reese are still working for the team. If the results haven't improved, maybe you should consider starting there.


At least we got computer guys working on things. Needle is pointing up!
A couple of points  
Red Dog : 2/10/2020 12:36 pm : link
First although Colin is very right about the draft resources that are used to develop the final list, and that the list has input from many, many sources who all serve at the discretion of the General Manager, somebody has to make the final selection. That guy is the General Manager, subject only to veto from John Mara. So the picks are the General Manager's pick, with a shitload of help from his people in the organization who report to him, but they are still HIS picks and he has to own them no matter how they turn out. So they are Reese's picks, and Gettleman's picks, and so on.

Second, echoing WillVAB, picking many "skill" position players and DTs at the top of the draft (and I'm not just talking about Round One here) most of the time is EXACTLY what got the GIANTS into the awful personnel shape that the team is in today. They ignored the OL until it collapsed. They ignored the LBs until that unit collapsed. They have to draft better talent at these positions or this team will continue to battle it out with Washington for the cellar in the NFL LEast division.

So I will also consider a WR pick before day three a remote throw despite the obvious need for help there. But until the OL is really, finally fixed, it doesn't matter because Jones can't get any star WR the ball if he is lying on his back. And if they can't fix the Defense, he won't have a lot of chances to do it either.

Slight quibble  
Bill2 : 2/10/2020 1:02 pm : link
My observation was that the LB unit was ignored and has been ignored since the early 2000's. Memory feels like when we got a good FA LB for an average sum we were thrilled ( Barrow/Pierce/Mitchell).

My observation was that draft resources were thrown at the OL in the 2013-2017 time frame but the selections were not good ones (Beatty/ Pugh/Richburg/Flowers)



RE: RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Festina Lente : 2/10/2020 1:38 pm : link
Couldn't agree more with you klaatu. Rest assured you are not a lone voice in the wilderness.

That said, I am hopeful this new CS can make up for some of our deficiencies.
In comment 14807772 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14807764 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



And? Does the truth hurt you? That is really how it is. The idea is to minimize the misses (especially on FA). Teams, no matter who, are going to miss on some players.



The truth is that the Giants have been a terrible team for a long time, and with the possible exception of perhaps getting our QB of the future, Dave Gettleman has done an equally terrible job as GM. In fact, you could make a case that in his two years on the job he's actually made things worse.

Maybe you're fine with Colin making more excuses for him. Maybe you're okay with a steady stream of questionable, head-scratching free agent signings, trades, and draft picks. And maybe you're okay with staying the course, because no one should really be blamed for 9-23...that's just "how it is." Sorry, but I'm not fine or okay with any of those things.

You're damned right the truth hurts, because the truth is that the Giants suck, and the guy responsible for their most recent sucking is still calling the shots, and I'm sick and tired of people making excuses for him.
12-36  
Thegratefulhead : 2/10/2020 2:12 pm : link
We are the laughing stock of today's NFL.

I am tired of it.

I cannot understand how anyone defends it.

Draft Mini mouse if you want.

Win or GTFO!
RE: So if no one is to blame  
bw in dc : 2/10/2020 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14807859 Tony in Tampa said:
Quote:
and the Giants just have to trust their board which they meticulously put together, why do teams like: GB and Pitts and Baltimore seem to have solid drafts every year and are contenders year after year? And the Giants and Cardinals and Clev are a continuous shit show. Are they all following the same process?

Or do the good teams just have a better FO and have accountability for mistakes and fix them.


According to many around here, DG has nailed the draft the last two years. So I guess we should assume the sh-t show is coming to an end... ;)
In consecutive drafts we selected Barkley(4.4) and Slayton(4.39)...  
Torrag : 2/10/2020 3:06 pm : link
each among the fastest players in their draft class. Corey Ballantine ran 4.47...that doesn't appear to be a philosophy that de-emphasizes speed. How many is he supposed to select?
Bear in mind  
BigBlueCane : 2/10/2020 3:35 pm : link
that Judge is not Pat Shurmur, and he and his staff will probably more influence and say on the draft then his predecessors.
I keep seeing Connelly's name thrown in the convo  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/10/2020 3:47 pm : link
Of being a good pick as if the book is closed on him. 3 games doesnt make anyone a good pick.
I donít agree with any of that....  
Reb8thVA : 2/10/2020 3:55 pm : link
In any organization, not just the Giants or any NFL team, that operates by consensus there has to be a final arbiter to adjudicate disagreements. Achieving a consensus is not always easy and Iím sure there were some heated arguments in the Giants war room. My instinct says that it is the GM and if it is a serious enough issue, itís the GM with Maraís blessing.
RE: A couple of points  
Reb8thVA : 2/10/2020 3:57 pm : link
In comment 14808111 Red Dog said:
Quote:
First although Colin is very right about the draft resources that are used to develop the final list, and that the list has input from many, many sources who all serve at the discretion of the General Manager, somebody has to make the final selection. That guy is the General Manager, subject only to veto from John Mara. So the picks are the General Manager's pick, with a shitload of help from his people in the organization who report to him, but they are still HIS picks and he has to own them no matter how they turn out. So they are Reese's picks, and Gettleman's picks, and so on.

Second, echoing WillVAB, picking many "skill" position players and DTs at the top of the draft (and I'm not just talking about Round One here) most of the time is EXACTLY what got the GIANTS into the awful personnel shape that the team is in today. They ignored the OL until it collapsed. They ignored the LBs until that unit collapsed. They have to draft better talent at these positions or this team will continue to battle it out with Washington for the cellar in the NFL LEast division.

So I will also consider a WR pick before day three a remote throw despite the obvious need for help there. But until the OL is really, finally fixed, it doesn't matter because Jones can't get any star WR the ball if he is lying on his back. And if they can't fix the Defense, he won't have a lot of chances to do it either.


Great minds think a like!
I thought  
ChicagoMarty : 2/10/2020 4:36 pm : link
that was one of Colin's most thoughtful pieces relative to the draft and how the Giants approach it.

Well done Colin.

I particularly liked his appraisal of the current Giants team speed which is not good

This needs to be improved and hopefully it will
RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
djm : 2/10/2020 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:
Quote:
We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.


I think youíre stretching things just a bit. Giants have gone through more coaches and front office people than any other team going. DG has been here for TWO seasons. Not ten. Not even 3. Nearly everyone without an axe to grind acknowledges his last 2 drafts have been Ok at the very least.

Youíre acting like DG is the direct reason why the giants have not only sucked the last 2 years but 10. Never mind all the other issues last year, including the in over his head former HC and the rookie qb playing all season long.
RE: RE: So, basically, the buck stops nowhere, shit happens...  
Klaatu : 2/10/2020 6:04 pm : link
In comment 14808392 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14807762 Klaatu said:


Quote:


We may have screwed up in the past, we might continue to screw up in the future, but trust the process anyway, and don't assign blame to anyone.



I think youíre stretching things just a bit.


Yeah. You would.
Thank you for posting M.S. ...  
Dan in the Springs : 2/10/2020 6:19 pm : link
This was a very good article and represents a more level-headed approach than is generally accepted here on BBI.
Hey Dan  
Bill2 : 2/10/2020 6:30 pm : link
Hope you are well
RE: I keep seeing Connelly's name thrown in the convo  
SGMen : 2/10/2020 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14808330 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Of being a good pick as if the book is closed on him. 3 games doesnt make anyone a good pick.
A crying shame he got hurt. I hate ACL injuries. He did look the part in the short run he had so I'm hopeful he fills Ogletree's shoes and we get a real ILB.
RE: Agree with Colin on this point...  
TheMick7 : 2/11/2020 10:58 am : link
In comment 14807789 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
"Nothing drives me battier than when I hear from people saying that the Giants canít afford to do this or that in the draft because we have too many holes to fill!"

Every year that's the mantra of the "We Need To Trade Down to Get More Picks" posters.

And even though I agree that THIS YEAR the Giants may be in a great position to trade down, I would also be OK with them staying put and taking either Okudah or their top-rated WR, rather than them forcing the pick by taking an OT or ER, just to fill a need.


I agree that we shouldn't force the pick,but it seems that all 4 top rated OT's will be gone very early,so I'm not completely sold that drafting one at 4 is a force! But, this is predicated on not signing an OT(Conklin?) in FA & if we did,would certainly give more leeway to best on the board!
RE: RE: Giants need to get away a little bit from the Reese WR/CB  
giantstock : 2/12/2020 12:28 am : link
In comment 14807811 Jim in Tampa said:
Quote:
In comment 14807797 Chris684 said:


Quote:


emphasis and place more on OL/LB/S, particularly up the middle of the field. We are overdue for a dominant type of player at Center, MLB or FS.


Perhaps in other rounds or in a trade down, but I don't think that there's a OL/LB/S worthy of the 4th overall pick. You don't force a pick that high because of need.


The problem is that you might be bias and call something a force when in fact it isn't. I find it mind boggling that some of you can be so obtuse regarding BPA. It's a team sport and there is such a thing as "positional value." Posters like you say you understand it but then you gloss over it.

Let me explain something to you that you obviously don't understand. What are the most important positions on the OLINE? They are TACKLES. Do you have any clue what that means and what positional value means? What's the next important position on the OLINE? It's the Center. Our OL how are the Tackles and the Center?

How the hell can Barkley and Jones do a damn thing when the top 3 most important positions on the OLINe all suck? So if that OT is "very good" that limits the pressure / hits Jones takes while giving more holes for Barkley to run how the hell is that considered "forced?" POSITIONAL VALUE AT OT ALLOWS guys like Jones and Barkley to impact the game more than lower tier position players.

If they take Okudah for example -- to some extent he better be Ty Law/Mike Haynes/Prime Time otherwise a tier 4 position player isn't the same as an OT. This is what "positional value" means. If you say you take BPA regardless, then it's clear that you don't understand what POSITIONAL VALUE means.
RE: When  
giantstock : 2/12/2020 1:06 am : link
In comment 14807834 mdthedream said:
Quote:
you have no money the last two years its hard to find really good free agents. I know the OT didn't pan out but not a lot of teams are letting them go. Also he had surgery last year.


I love this myth some of you DG homers spout.

SO he had "no money" 2 years ago? Yet he had the money to sign Solder to such a large contract. He traded for Ogletree with draft picks. Add he signed Kareem Martin. And he got Omameh and Stewart. That's about $35m - $40m maybe more.

How the hell is that considered "no money?" By the way, how have they all turned out?
RE: You guys are hilarious - two drafts removed and you're still  
santacruzom : 2/12/2020 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14807807 jcn56 said:
Quote:
knocking Reese. What has Gettleman done to give you the impression he's any better?


He's managed to draft a few promising players after round 3. Now, I'm not certain he's been above average in that regard -- you can say the same about almost every team, including the very bad ones.
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