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Ring of Honor vs Retired Jerseys

Elisha10 : 2/10/2020 1:43 pm
There has recently been a lot of talk about this with the news of Eli and Strahan getting their numbers retired. Since Strahan retired there was always some talk about him having his number retired. Whenever such a thread was started Carson was always brought up. Until Eli retired a lot of people on here assumed that there would be no more retired numbers and that the Ring of Honor was the new way to honor past players.

I was recently looking through both lists and one thing never discussed is that there are two Giants with retired numbers who are not in the Ring of Honor. They are Ray Flaherty and Ward Cuff. Ray Flaherty was actually the first player in American sports to have their number retired. How are these two not in the ROH?

Other players that I think should be in the ROH are:

Jack McBride
Benny Friedman
Ed Danowski
Morris Badgro
Kyle Rote
Jimmy Patton
Jack Stroud
Ray Wietecha
Greg Larson
Jim Katcavage
Spider Lockhart
Leonard Marshall
Howard Cross
Keith Hamilton

But the only players who I think should have their numbers retired are:

Mel Hein
Emlen Tunnell
Charlie Conerly
Frank Gifford
Rosey Brown
Harry Carson
Phil Simms
Lawrence Taylor
Michael Strahan
Eli Manning

One more thing, what are everyone's thoughts on Dick Lynch, is he deserving to be in the ROH over the players I listed? I listed six of his teammates who I feel were more important Giants. Is he there more for his broadcasting career? I know he was a good players, but he had a short career and only made one pro bowl.

I oppose retiring numbers. Too few #s, too many players.  
81_Great_Dane : 2/10/2020 2:50 pm : link
But that's just me.
RE: I oppose retiring numbers. Too few #s, too many players.  
mrvax : 2/10/2020 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14808260 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
But that's just me.


I'm of the same opinion. Wearing the number of a great player who came before you would be an incentive to try and fill their shoes. I do like the Ring of Honor though.

Very good call on Greg Larson  
Frank in Silver Spring : 2/10/2020 3:15 pm : link
Career Giant and solid as a rock on the OL. Be nice to draft someone like him this year. His career was largely confined to the dark years, post Gifford, et. al., and pre late 1970s competency.
I agree with you  
Leg of Theismann : 2/10/2020 4:03 pm : link
the problem is you're talking about un-retiring a bunch of numbers followed by retiring a handful of numbers. I don't know if an organization as classy and tradition-focused would be willing to do all this.

That said, ever since I heard Joe Morrison's number was actually retired by accident, I always wondered what Emlen Tunnel and Roosevelt Brown must have thought of that whole ordeal. They seemed to stop retiring numbers around the time that they WOULD HAVE retired Tunnel's and Brown's numbers, so the fact they retired Morrison's number not too long after that while Tunnel and Brown were still alive must have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

It really does seem like they used to just retire numbers left and right and then realized they had to stop because they were going to run out of numbers at that rate.

Again, I completely agree with your post and wish they would make it all right. But I highly doubt they would take such drastic action.
I don't really have a problem with retiring Eli and Strahan  
BlackLight : 2/10/2020 5:16 pm : link
But my suggestion has been, for certain edge cases where the player might be worthy of more than just the ROH, is to make their numbers Dead Guy Numbers - meaning nobody can wear that number so long as the standard-bearer walks the Earth.
Retiring numbers should be very rare  
djstat : 2/10/2020 5:26 pm : link
Manning and strahan make sense.

Carson was a phenominal player, obviously HOF, but I would say he is ROH. Not jersey retirement, especially since others have worn his number 53 since he left. No one has worn 92 since Strahan left.
thanks for putting the thread out here.  
Lines of Scrimmage : 2/10/2020 6:11 pm : link
I think the retired numbers are good. If Simms was retired Eli should have been. Strahan was the leader of the turnaround with TC....getting everybody on board. He deserves it.

As for the others I think they stay the course. Longevity and and a championship are obviously a big thing.

I have been a fan since 1981. When I think of the 80's I say LT and Simms...and Parcells. The 90's not too much. 2000-10 I think Eli and Stray.

Ed Danowski is a interesting case. Two championships and his son is a legend for us on Long Island. Classmate of Wellington. I am surprised he is not in the ROH. The others I can't say as I do not know the stories behind them.
Joe Morrison is my favorite Giant  
yalebowl : 2/10/2020 9:54 pm : link
Stop with he doesnít deserve to have his number retired. He played for the Giants for 15 years. He played six different positions. He led the team in rushing. He was a team captain. He was still playing special teams in his last year. He and Greg Larsen were the last two players who played during the glory years when they retired. And he endured playing when the Giants were in their lean years.

Having your number retired by a team is not just for the superstars but also for players who gave their all for one team during a long career. You donít play for fifteen years if you are not any good.

Unfortunately, Joe passed away from a heart attack while he was the head coach at South Carolina.
Retiring numbers is a problem for teams with a long history.  
Ivan15 : 2/10/2020 11:13 pm : link
My suggestion is to take the number out of circulation for a few years before offering it to a young developing star who has earned the right to wear it. Not for rookies but for guys in their third or fourth year who are budding stars.

Kind of like Syracuse #44.

Using those criteria, no one would have earned Taylorís 56 or Strahanís 92 yet. Collins or Manning might have been offered Simmsí 11.

Either something like this or retire all 2 digit numbers and issue numbers like they do at the combine.
I thought Carson was on track to break the record for consecutive pro  
sec308 : 2/11/2020 12:45 am : link
bowls but I can't find evidence to confirm that. I have to say that HOF's are jersey retires but I'm good with reversing them after their death, maybe a few years later.
RE: Joe Morrison is my favorite Giant  
Leg of Theismann : 2/11/2020 12:56 am : link
In comment 14808548 yalebowl said:
Quote:
Stop with he doesnít deserve to have his number retired. He played for the Giants for 15 years. He played six different positions. He led the team in rushing. He was a team captain. He was still playing special teams in his last year. He and Greg Larsen were the last two players who played during the glory years when they retired. And he endured playing when the Giants were in their lean years.

Having your number retired by a team is not just for the superstars but also for players who gave their all for one team during a long career. You donít play for fifteen years if you are not any good.

Unfortunately, Joe passed away from a heart attack while he was the head coach at South Carolina.



I certainly didn't say he wasn't any good. There's a difference between being "any good" and having your number retired.

I also didn't really say he didn't deserve to have his number retired, I simply mentioned the fact that his number was retired partially by accident. I would more just say that if his number was retired then I think Tunnel's and Brown's numbers should have definitely been retired. And the fact that Morrison's number was retired, but Tunnel's and Brown's numbers were left unretired just seems like that may have rubbed Tunnel and Brown the wrong way considering the timing of when all this went down.

I also never thought of this before: but just from where I'm sitting, I have to say it doesn't seem unreasonable to speculate that race was a factor here (especially considering the time, obviously). Has anyone mentioned that before? Obviously not that anyone would state that publicly at the time, but I'm just saying... All of the first ten players who had had their numbers retired (including Morrison) were white. And timing shouldn't really have been the only reason. Tittle and Gifford both retired in '64 and had their numbers retired, while Tunnel left the team in '58 (retired in '61) and Brown retired in '65 having spent all 13 of his NFL seasons with the Giants (you had mentioned retired numbers also have to do with having a "long" career-- Morrison only played one more season than Brown did). Neither Tunnel nor Brown had their numbers retired. Then turn around just 7 years later and Joe Morrison's number gets retired immediately upon his retirement.

I never even thought about the fact that LT is the first and only black Giant to ever have his number retired (until Strahan now).

Tunnel and Brown each made 9 pro bowls and each won 2 NFL Championships. Both of these guys made the NFL 100 greatest players of all time announced at the SB this year. Meanwhile Joe Morrison made zero pro bowls and won zero NFL Championships. It seems like he held a special place in a lot of people's hearts for being one of those "blue-collar, lunch-pail type guys". Which is fine. And I'm not arguing against the retiring of his number, it's more just that to retire his number and snub Tunnel and Brown, considering those guys both played and retired in an era when the team was still retiring numbers, just doesn't seem right to me.

And I'm not even sitting here and saying it was intentional racism on the part of the Giants, but I can't help but notice a very glaring coincidence.

I know plenty of people are going to get absolutely incensed at me for even mentioning this, but I'm asking sincerely to the older fans who do have better historical perspective from having lived through those times potentially: could Tunnel and Brown being black have had anything to do with why they were snubbed for jersey retirement? I promise I'm posing the question with total humility and not trying to incite an argument here, I could absolutely be dead wrong; I just want people's honest insights and opinions.
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