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NFC East rookie grades (from NFL.com)

M.S. : 2/11/2020 9:37 am
Giants get a very nice A- for their 2019 Draft!

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There's also a flip side to this:  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2020 12:53 pm : link
Quote:
Reese did a bad in 15, 16, 17 -- the drafts that statistically should be making the most impact on the team right now. That's the problem.

The only purpose I see getting wrapped around a pole about what happened as far back as 2011 is to bolster the sob story for Gettleman.


When pointed out that Gettleman's drafts in Carolina yielded 11 players who were still starters last season (which would be very good in relation to the figures posted for Dallas, Philly and Washington) it is dismissed as the Panthers sucking.

Being wrapped around a pole isn't due to bolstering a sob story, it is because the car crashed on a heaping pile of inconsistency in argumentation
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14810492 christian said:
Quote:
It's a statistical improbability a GM will walk into a team in 2018 and the roster will be full of homegrown talent from 2011.

Reese did a bad in 15, 16, 17 -- the drafts that statistically should be making the most impact on the team right now. That's the problem.

The only purpose I see getting wrapped around a pole about what happened as far back as 2011 is to bolster the sob story for Gettleman.

Gettleman inherited a flawed roster where the most talented players were knuckleheads, the most recent drafts had brought on 2 grade idiots in the tops rounds, and the roster was top heavy with expensive contracts.

Gettleman was left a difficult task, that's why Reese was fired.


Wrong. It's not a sob story for Gettleman. It's a sob story for Gilbride, Coughlin, Eli, the franchise.... and understanding how we got here (rock bottom), and the magnitude of getting out of the hole we were left in

Reese rode the core that he inherited into the ground. When it came his term to rebuild his aging core, he waited too long, and then failed pretty miserably at it. People lost jobs. The Giants lost games. And when Gettleman finally did get his hands on it, it was complete sh-t. Reese inherited a championship roster. Gettleman inherited thin paper chumps. So much so that in the first offseason, two thirds of the team had to be turned over. One offseason later, only 1 player remains that Reese drafted. Sterling Sheppard. The sheer magnitude of that turnover in two offseasons tells you exactly what the state of the Giants was that Reese left.
So pardon me for giving Dave Gettleman a little latitude....  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 12:59 pm : link
here, because with the sheer magnitude of the job he took on, I'm not sure what could have yielded better results in two off seasons.
And since we're so concerned about players shelf lives around here...  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 1:02 pm : link
it would be nice if he had left us one or two to build around. Specifically on either line.
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/13/2020 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14810505 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Gettleman inherited thin paper chumps. So much so that in the first offseason, two thirds of the team had to be turned over. One offseason later, only 1 player remains that Reese drafted. Sterling Sheppard. The sheer magnitude of that turnover in two offseasons tells you exactly what the state of the Giants was that Reese left.

Did we cut Tomlinson and Engram?
Forgot about those two.....  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 1:12 pm : link
Point remains.
I was referring to the numbers fanatic was posting. Didn't realize...  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 1:17 pm : link
he only went to 2016.

We'll see how much longer Tomlinson and Engram are on the roster and whether they get a second contract.
If Barkley  
Nick in LA : 2/13/2020 1:24 pm : link
comes back and has an amazing season this year can everyone agree to shut the fuck up about his draft position? Jesus christ it is getting really old. Every thread someone brings it up. Shut the fuck up, he is on the team he was picked 2nd overall, get over it.
RE: People should..  
BrettNYG10 : 2/13/2020 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14810469 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
be able to accept that Gettleman has made mistakes without portraying him as incompetent or spew vitriol at him daily.

If you are inherited the roster he was - even if you do things perfectly, it likely is going to take time to turn around. Let's say he comes in, gets rid of eli, purges the team of bad contracts and sucks it up for the first year. All that ensures is that we suck - and you still have to pick a successful QB. You still have to field a team. You still have to try to be competitive. The recent teams who have been accused of tanking aren't like they shoot right up shortly thereafter to being elite. Most of them are still struggling.

The commentary here is slanted so that Gettleman sticking with Eli, signing Solder, trading for Ogletree and trying to be competitive is a fireable offense, when it is very difficult to even put together a plan in hindsight that would have us much more improved in 2019.


I thought that if DG did a really good job from day one, they could have competed this season. I think Gettleman's initial errors have delayed that by (at least) a year. And he needs to do a bang-up job to get there - I think the roster is still REALLY weak. A 2-3 year job turned into a 4-5 year one.

IMO.
RE: RE: People should..  
Britt in VA : 2/13/2020 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14810535 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810469 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


be able to accept that Gettleman has made mistakes without portraying him as incompetent or spew vitriol at him daily.

If you are inherited the roster he was - even if you do things perfectly, it likely is going to take time to turn around. Let's say he comes in, gets rid of eli, purges the team of bad contracts and sucks it up for the first year. All that ensures is that we suck - and you still have to pick a successful QB. You still have to field a team. You still have to try to be competitive. The recent teams who have been accused of tanking aren't like they shoot right up shortly thereafter to being elite. Most of them are still struggling.

The commentary here is slanted so that Gettleman sticking with Eli, signing Solder, trading for Ogletree and trying to be competitive is a fireable offense, when it is very difficult to even put together a plan in hindsight that would have us much more improved in 2019.



I thought that if DG did a really good job from day one, they could have competed this season. I think Gettleman's initial errors have delayed that by (at least) a year. And he needs to do a bang-up job to get there - I think the roster is still REALLY weak. A 2-3 year job turned into a 4-5 year one.

IMO.


That logic doesn't make sense to me.

If Dave Gettleman's single offseason turned a 2-3 year job into a 4-5 year job, what was the job to being with considering the poor choices of the previous 7 offseasons?
RE: RE: RE: People should..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/13/2020 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14810549 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14810535 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 14810469 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


be able to accept that Gettleman has made mistakes without portraying him as incompetent or spew vitriol at him daily.

If you are inherited the roster he was - even if you do things perfectly, it likely is going to take time to turn around. Let's say he comes in, gets rid of eli, purges the team of bad contracts and sucks it up for the first year. All that ensures is that we suck - and you still have to pick a successful QB. You still have to field a team. You still have to try to be competitive. The recent teams who have been accused of tanking aren't like they shoot right up shortly thereafter to being elite. Most of them are still struggling.

The commentary here is slanted so that Gettleman sticking with Eli, signing Solder, trading for Ogletree and trying to be competitive is a fireable offense, when it is very difficult to even put together a plan in hindsight that would have us much more improved in 2019.



I thought that if DG did a really good job from day one, they could have competed this season. I think Gettleman's initial errors have delayed that by (at least) a year. And he needs to do a bang-up job to get there - I think the roster is still REALLY weak. A 2-3 year job turned into a 4-5 year one.

IMO.



That logic doesn't make sense to me.

If Dave Gettleman's single offseason turned a 2-3 year job into a 4-5 year job, what was the job to being with considering the poor choices of the previous 7 offseasons?

2-3. That's exactly what his post says.

And the logic doesn't make sense? DG wasted year 1 by getting his roster evaluation completely wrong. That means 2-3 immediately becomes 3-4. Then, because of his misevaluation, he spends year 2 in a self-imposed cap hell to cleanup bad contracts, which resulted in a league-leading amount of dead money (roughly 60% of which was created by contracts DG handed out, not JR), which meant that year 2 was used at least partially to correct the errors of year 1.

So now here we are still at the very early stages of the rebuild. The only bright spot is that we now have our young QB, which is the centerpiece of any successful rebuild. So maybe it's still just 3-4 instead of 2-3?

It's undeniable that it's going to take at least a year longer than it should have because it started a year later than it should have.

But maybe it'll still be 2-3 when we go 10-6 this year on the Gettleman Revenge Tour.
The prior 7 off-seasons have nothing to do with it.  
BrettNYG10 : 2/13/2020 1:58 pm : link
This was always a 2-3 year job minimum to me because I (correctly, I might add) thought the roster sucked when DG came in. Gettleman's year one actions delayed that.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/13/2020 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14810505 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Wrong. It's not a sob story for Gettleman. It's a sob story for Gilbride, Coughlin, Eli, the franchise.... and understanding how we got here (rock bottom), and the magnitude of getting out of the hole we were left in


LOL.
Yes Reese left the place a shambles but what was  
LBH15 : 2/13/2020 3:42 pm : link
Gettleman's first order of business? Well he went on to:
- miscalculate the roster
- poorly assess what Eli had left in the tank and
- miss on all of his key free agent signings

His second order of business has been cleaning up the mess he made during the first order of business.

The Giants aren't getting anywhere matching good moves against bad ones. That's what the record has shown these past two years.






RE: If we..  
.McL. : 2/13/2020 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14809731 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
...
I've agreed that Barkley wasn't the best pick for a team that is rebuilding, but I really don't see that we would be demonstrably better with an edge rusher or Darnold and a hole at RB.

I'd have preferred a tradedown to get OL, but the right players have to be taken. Put Nelson on this team and I don't think the W/L totals are changed. Put Chubb here and the same - plus, we would've gone into last year still needing a QB.

Wow... I'm impressed. I mean for 2 years, myself and a others who professed the trade down for OL POV, were raked over the coals by you. But, now you have finally come over this point of view, one that I (and a few others) espoused BEFORE that draft...

All I can say is, welcome to the dark side.
You love..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2020 6:00 pm : link
revisionist bullshit. You weren't raked over the coals for suggesting a trade down.

A lot of people wanted a tradedown. A lot of people wanted Darnold. The only QB I was on record as wanting here was Jackson, and even then, I was really leery of the pre-draft crap with his parent stepping in to be an agent.

The difference is - just because the Giants didn't do those things makes them wrong - yet you've clung to the fact that they were dead wrong. And the story always becomes the best possible outcome in these revised tales.

It isn't that Darnold is drafted here, the record is the same, the OL is poor and Barkley is winning Rookie of the Year elsewhere. Those people somehow disappeared.

The story is that we should have traded down and gotten Chubb or Nelson. Or a couple of linemen - yet our record may not be too different and Chubb being out a season isn't going to have people saying the needle is trending upward.

People can't even budge enough off their high horse to give Gettleman credit for drafting a great player.

You voiced an alternate plan. Just like I did. The difference is - two years later you are still droning on about it like a fucking banshee.
RE: You love..  
.McL. : 2/13/2020 6:37 pm : link
In comment 14810773 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
revisionist bullshit. You weren't raked over the coals for suggesting a trade down.

A lot of people wanted a tradedown. A lot of people wanted Darnold. The only QB I was on record as wanting here was Jackson, and even then, I was really leery of the pre-draft crap with his parent stepping in to be an agent.

The difference is - just because the Giants didn't do those things makes them wrong - yet you've clung to the fact that they were dead wrong. And the story always becomes the best possible outcome in these revised tales.

It isn't that Darnold is drafted here, the record is the same, the OL is poor and Barkley is winning Rookie of the Year elsewhere. Those people somehow disappeared.

The story is that we should have traded down and gotten Chubb or Nelson. Or a couple of linemen - yet our record may not be too different and Chubb being out a season isn't going to have people saying the needle is trending upward.

People can't even budge enough off their high horse to give Gettleman credit for drafting a great player.

You voiced an alternate plan. Just like I did. The difference is - two years later you are still droning on about it like a fucking banshee.

Here is what you just wrote...
blah blah blah, lotsa nonsense, blah, blah, blah...
Quote:
You voiced an alternate plan. Just like I did. The difference is - two years later you are still droning on about it like a fucking banshee.


Apparently an alternate plan you now, 2 years later agree with. You said it yourself.

Bottom line here, that even if Barkley is a great player, it was not the best use of resources. Apparently you agree with that, since now 2 years later, you would have preferred trading down for some OL... Forget making this about Gettleman, lets make this about you! All your bluster and insults were for nothing, and you now admit that the trade down for OL POV was correct.
McL  
Bill2 : 2/13/2020 6:41 pm : link
You revealed too much
RE: McL  
.McL. : 2/13/2020 6:43 pm : link
In comment 14810794 Bill2 said:
Quote:
You revealed too much

???
All I revealed was FMiC's hypocrisy.
This is why FMiC  
.McL. : 2/13/2020 6:48 pm : link
Almost never expresses any recognizable opinion...
He exposes his hypocrisy and, the fact that he has been attacking people just for the sake of attacking them. No other motive, other than being a bully.
RE: There's also a flip side to this:  
christian : 2/13/2020 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14810502 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


Quote:


Reese did a bad in 15, 16, 17 -- the drafts that statistically should be making the most impact on the team right now. That's the problem.

The only purpose I see getting wrapped around a pole about what happened as far back as 2011 is to bolster the sob story for Gettleman.



When pointed out that Gettleman's drafts in Carolina yielded 11 players who were still starters last season (which would be very good in relation to the figures posted for Dallas, Philly and Washington) it is dismissed as the Panthers sucking.

Being wrapped around a pole isn't due to bolstering a sob story, it is because the car crashed on a heaping pile of inconsistency in argumentation


Just so I'm clear -- what's the connection between what Reese did in 2011 and what Gettleman did in Carolina?
RE: This is why FMiC  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/13/2020 8:30 pm : link
In comment 14810799 .McL. said:
Quote:
Almost never expresses any recognizable opinion...
He exposes his hypocrisy and, the fact that he has been attacking people just for the sake of attacking them. No other motive, other than being a bully.


What the fuck??

If I express no recognizable opinion, how can I be hypocritical??

Let me put this very simply since you really suck at comprehending points - the Giants doing something different that you, I or any other person on this board wanted doesn't make it wrong. Spending time and crafting numerous posts saying it was wrong - still doesn't make it wrong.

You can't find a post by me that criticizes the idea of a tradedown. What I criticized is the POV that not trading down or selecting Barkley was wrong. That posting page long diatribes about positional value was bullshit. Spending the majority of the past two years not accepting that we picked Barkley, but instead trying to prove the move was incorrect - a point that still hasn't been proven one way or another.

You continue to miss this point - probably because you are too busy trying to convince the board you have one....
It was a lesser alternative particularly  
LBH15 : 2/14/2020 8:04 am : link
for a team in serious rebuild like the Giants. But Gettleman didn't see his team that way and acknowledges that he badly missed it.

Don't really know if need to debate Right vs. Wrong, but if those are choices would probably go with wrong.

RE: RE: George youngís giants went 6-10 in 1979  
djm : 2/14/2020 5:05 pm : link
In comment 14809319 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14809313 djm said:


Quote:


4-12 in 1980.

Heís gone if youíre making the decisions back then. Gone. Poof! See ya! Whoís next on the docket ?

Ill also use this as my weekly excuse to remind everyone that accorsi was coming off a 6-22 two year run heading into the 2005 season.

Honestly Iím surprised at how much attention and scrutiny the GM even gets around here lately. Every move every dollar spent leads to a referendum around here on the GM. Now weíre combing through the wins losses record and dying the fire the GM ? GMs arenít coaches. They are held to different standards and timelines. Itís apples and oranges. You can bring in talent and improve things and not see those improvements manifest into wins right away.


GY is irrelevant - that was pre-cap era.

Accorsi was a meh GM on balance, that was made to look better by Eli and Coughlin.

I'm sorry that you're not willing to accept that the finances are a very real part of success in the current NFL.


huh? all you did come up with weak excuses why other sound examples don't hold any water.

sorry, but what I said is 100% true. Want me to find other legendary GMs that struggled for a few years? I will...don't tempt me.
and there are plenty of people  
djm : 2/14/2020 5:14 pm : link
with plenty of insider knowledge that have gone out of their way to state that fans and media focus way too much energy and attn to the salary dynamic in pro football. of course the financial side of things is relevant. Of course it plays a role, but some of you are lunatics with this shit. But what does a guy like PAt Kirwin know. He's only a former NFL exec who has also studied the game for decades now.

I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.

PS if the Giants drafted Chubb at 2 they'd be even shittier the last 2 years.

This year  
Thegratefulhead : 2/14/2020 5:15 pm : link
Is going to prove DG right or wrong. You will not have the answer until it is over. EVERYONE that reads this board with any kind of frequency understand fully the points both sides are making. If we are not better DG will be gone. Is what it is.

The Barkley pick did not make us 9-23. You can do anything else with what we could have done and I am not seeing many more wins. I am also not about to sing DGs praises either. You kidding? I am skeptical as shit. But year three with money to spend. the man is on the clock for his job and he knows it. Let's see how he handles it.
RE: RE: This is why FMiC  
.McL. : 2/14/2020 6:38 pm : link
In comment 14810860 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14810799 .McL. said:


Quote:


Almost never expresses any recognizable opinion...
He exposes his hypocrisy and, the fact that he has been attacking people just for the sake of attacking them. No other motive, other than being a bully.



What the fuck??

If I express no recognizable opinion, how can I be hypocritical??

Let me put this very simply since you really suck at comprehending points

Apparently YOU are the one incapable of comprehending points... I said the you ALMOST NEVER... The ALMOST NEVER is key. The point was when you do, you open yourself up to criticism like this because you make it such a habit to attack people no matter what.

Quote:

- the Giants doing something different that you, I or any other person on this board wanted doesn't make it wrong. Spending time and crafting numerous posts saying it was wrong - still doesn't make it wrong.

You can't find a post by me that criticizes the idea of a tradedown. What I criticized is the POV that not trading down or selecting Barkley was wrong. That posting page long diatribes about positional value was bullshit. Spending the majority of the past two years not accepting that we picked Barkley, but instead trying to prove the move was incorrect - a point that still hasn't been proven one way or another.

You continue to miss this point - probably because you are too busy trying to convince the board you have one....

Back to the fact that you cannot comprehending points. This is logic, not your strong point I know, but bear with me.

The job of the GM is to manage the roster in a way that gives the team the best chance of winning. I.E. to choose the optimal path to success. If you prefer that the Giants traded down and selected OL, then you believe that there was better value to be gained. I.E. a more optimal path. So by definition you believe that the Barkley pick was sub-optimal. If the job of the GM is to take the optimal path, and the GM took a less optimal path, then the GM was wrong. Notice I am using the word believe here, that means that its an opinion not fact.

There is no way to prove it right or wrong. Winning a championship or not doesn't prove anything. Maybe the team could have started winning championships sooner, or won more often during the GMs tenure. If no championship is won, there is no way to ever know if the other path would have yielded one instead. There really is no right or wrong, however there is good and bad. Good being the choice that is optimal or close to it, and bad is a choice that is far from optimal.

If you look at my posts over the past 2 years, I have made this point about optimizing decisions in various ways many many times. I have ALWAYS said that I believed Barkley was not the optimal path, that I believed trading down for OL was the optimal path. With 2 years of hindsight, it still appears that the trade down for OL was the more optimal path. I would even venture to say that it is more apparent now than 2 years ago.

All that is opinion. I state my opinion, perhaps I state them strongly, I tend to back those opinions up with other forms of evidence. Note I said evidence, I didn't say FACTs. I make it difficult for people argue an alternative opinion. But isn't that what debate is about, stating a position and making it difficult on the the other side to oppose it. In the end, you just like posters like that because it make you feel a loss of control. You have an odd reflexive need to try and control what is said here, and you instinctively attack anything you feel is out of your control. Some pretty sick behavior actually.
In the end,  
.McL. : 2/14/2020 6:43 pm : link
you just DON'T like posters...

I missed the don't above
RE: and there are plenty of people  
christian : 2/14/2020 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14811452 djm said:
Quote:
I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.


And conversely there's no middle ground to contemplate if an alternative choice would have been a better investment or helped the Giants more in the short and medium term.

Plenty posters would have preferred the Giants laser focused on fixing the offensive line, think the Giants could have improved the run game to the same degree, helped protect the QB more, and that lineman are a better investment.
RE: RE: and there are plenty of people  
.McL. : 2/14/2020 8:31 pm : link
In comment 14811516 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14811452 djm said:


Quote:


I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.



And conversely there's no middle ground to contemplate if an alternative choice would have been a better investment or helped the Giants more in the short and medium term.

Plenty posters would have preferred the Giants laser focused on fixing the offensive line, think the Giants could have improved the run game to the same degree, helped protect the QB more, and that lineman are a better investment.

Let me add tht given the state of the team at the time, I think that trading down for OL was the biggest bang for the buck. Another time, a different situation, it might be different choice(s) are the best path...

You are seeking a middle ground where opinions are concerned. What middle ground is there? If I have an opinion and express it and it is different than yours, what are you seeking? You want me to change my opinion so it is closer to yours? Probably not going to happen unless you make a very good case. And let me say this, there have been times where posters have made a very good case and changed my mind about something. But those situations are going to be rare. More often, folks who post have opinions that are hardened and you are just not going to move them. So, again I ask, what are you seeking, what middle ground? You want somebody to say that maybe you have a valid opinion? Sure some are valid even if I disagree with then... On the other hand, you in particular are so far to one end of these debates that I believe you have some indefensible opinions.
RE: RE: RE: and there are plenty of people  
.McL. : 2/14/2020 8:32 pm : link
In comment 14811526 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14811516 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14811452 djm said:


Quote:


I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.



And conversely there's no middle ground to contemplate if an alternative choice would have been a better investment or helped the Giants more in the short and medium term.

Plenty posters would have preferred the Giants laser focused on fixing the offensive line, think the Giants could have improved the run game to the same degree, helped protect the QB more, and that lineman are a better investment.


Let me add tht given the state of the team at the time, I think that trading down for OL was the biggest bang for the buck. Another time, a different situation, it might be different choice(s) are the best path...

You are seeking a middle ground where opinions are concerned. What middle ground is there? If I have an opinion and express it and it is different than yours, what are you seeking? You want me to change my opinion so it is closer to yours? Probably not going to happen unless you make a very good case. And let me say this, there have been times where posters have made a very good case and changed my mind about something. But those situations are going to be rare. More often, folks who post have opinions that are hardened and you are just not going to move them. So, again I ask, what are you seeking, what middle ground? You want somebody to say that maybe you have a valid opinion? Sure some are valid even if I disagree with then... On the other hand, you in particular are so far to one end of these debates that I believe you have some indefensible opinions.

My reply was really to djm, not christian...
RE: RE: and there are plenty of people  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 6:52 am : link
In comment 14811516 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14811452 djm said:


Quote:


I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.



And conversely there's no middle ground to contemplate if an alternative choice would have been a better investment or helped the Giants more in the short and medium term.

Plenty posters would have preferred the Giants laser focused on fixing the offensive line, think the Giants could have improved the run game to the same degree, helped protect the QB more, and that lineman are a better investment.


Because we're two years removed and it's OVER! The time to talk alternative choices ended with the pick. How many years are we going to hand wring over it?

And secondly, EVERYBODY wants the Giants laser focused on fixing the o-line.

And finally, picking Saquon Barkley did not prevent them from addressing the offensive line. They still drafted a starting G the same draft, and thought they had signed their new left tackle. The moves haven't worked, but picking Saquon is not an indictment of ignoring the offensive line.
It was a lesser alternative clearly.  
LBH15 : 2/15/2020 7:56 am : link
Saying you want to fix the Oline, and either not or failing at your attempts doesn't win you the hearts of NY Giant fans.

Ask Jerry Reese the number one reason he was fired.
RE: It was a lesser alternative clearly.  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 8:49 am : link
In comment 14811627 LBH15 said:
Quote:
Saying you want to fix the Oline, and either not or failing at your attempts doesn't win you the hearts of NY Giant fans.

Ask Jerry Reese the number one reason he was fired.


I have been the harshest Jerry Reese critic since 2012 in that regard.

I get it.
They also went into 2018 with Flowers moving over to the  
LBH15 : 2/15/2020 9:45 am : link
right side. That well-thought plan took about one snap that season to see where that was heading.

So yes, more and better could have been done.
RE: They also went into 2018 with Flowers moving over to the  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 9:53 am : link
In comment 14811655 LBH15 said:
Quote:
right side. That well-thought plan took about one snap that season to see where that was heading.

So yes, more and better could have been done.


Yeah, so? A lot of us wanted them to make that move. It was that or cut bait in a first round pick in only his 3rd season (which we ended up doing when it failed).

That's still more of an indictment of Reese than Gettleman. That the 10th overall pick couldn't play ANY position on the line or be helpful in any way.
RE: RE: RE: and there are plenty of people  
christian : 2/15/2020 10:14 am : link
In comment 14811620 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14811516 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14811452 djm said:


Quote:


I mean cmon, threads 1000 hits long discussing "the future of Barkley" and talking about a contract that hasn't even happened yet. And why his next contract is doomed to be a mistake. Gimme a break. There's middle ground but not here. Never. Barkley was a stupid pick, just because I say so or because of some made up myth that has been echoed all over because it's fun and easy and seems sensible enough. But it's BS.



And conversely there's no middle ground to contemplate if an alternative choice would have been a better investment or helped the Giants more in the short and medium term.

Plenty posters would have preferred the Giants laser focused on fixing the offensive line, think the Giants could have improved the run game to the same degree, helped protect the QB more, and that lineman are a better investment.



Because we're two years removed and it's OVER! The time to talk alternative choices ended with the pick. How many years are we going to hand wring over it


Thanks for the rules on what can and can't be discussed Britt.

I guess we'll all go quietly to the corner now until you let us out of time out.
You're the one saying that there's no middle ground.  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 10:19 am : link
Fatman said a trillion times he would have been fine with a trade down for OL.

I would have been fine with the trade down for Nelson if they got good value.

But the value apparently wasn't there (been discussed ten trillion times already) and they took Barkley.

You, and a few others, seem to be the only ones that can't get over it and find middle ground.
But that's not some novel behavior....  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 10:22 am : link
Eli Manning won two Superbowls and the "realists" on here were still bemoaning that trade.
RE: You're the one saying that there's no middle ground.  
christian : 2/15/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14811671 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Fatman said a trillion times he would have been fine with a trade down for OL.

I would have been fine with the trade down for Nelson if they got good value.

But the value apparently wasn't there (been discussed ten trillion times already) and they took Barkley.

You, and a few others, seem to be the only ones that can't get over it and find middle ground.


The sarcasm of my comment went about 30,000 feet over your head. Read DJM's original post to which I was responding.
Well, you are the smartest guy in the room....  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 10:24 am : link
so we're all about 30,000 ft beneath you.
RE: RE: They also went into 2018 with Flowers moving over to the  
LBH15 : 2/15/2020 10:30 am : link
In comment 14811656 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14811655 LBH15 said:


Quote:


right side. That well-thought plan took about one snap that season to see where that was heading.

So yes, more and better could have been done.



Yeah, so? A lot of us wanted them to make that move. It was that or cut bait in a first round pick in only his 3rd season (which we ended up doing when it failed).

That's still more of an indictment of Reese than Gettleman. That the 10th overall pick couldn't play ANY position on the line or be helpful in any way.


So it wasnít fixed. Stay with whatís not working isnít a plan.
RE: Well, you are the smartest guy in the room....  
christian : 2/15/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14811676 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
so we're all about 30,000 ft beneath you.


Lol. Oh Britt.
The focus on this subject is relentless.  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 10:45 am : link
I can't remember another subject like it during my nearly 20 years on this site. Eli kind of, I guess, is the only other one.

This horse has been beaten to glue. We know some people despise the Barkley pick. We know some people love the Barkley pick. We know some people would have been cool with a trade down but understand and are okay with picking Barkley.

I don't really know what there is left to discuss on it other than to agree to disagree on what could've, should've, would've happened. What's done is done.
They are are linked  
LBH15 : 2/15/2020 10:51 am : link
misevaluations, hanging too long with Eli, RB choice, not getting line fixed.

Itís not one subject.
RE: The focus on this subject is relentless.  
christian : 2/15/2020 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14811686 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't really know what there is left to discuss on it other than to agree to disagree on what could've, should've, would've happened. What's done is done.


Probably then a good signal for you to bow out, and not jump in when others are having perfectly enjoyable conversation on a topic you aren't interested in?
Well, when people stop bringing it up on EVERY thread,  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 4:02 pm : link
that will be easier.
For instance,  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 4:02 pm : link
this started as a thread on the thread DG did on the draft this year.

It made it about 10 posts and here we are, 200 later.
on the nice job DG did, should have read.  
Britt in VA : 2/15/2020 4:03 pm : link
.
Britt - Like it ot not  
.McL. : 2/15/2020 5:36 pm : link
The Barkley pick is controversial, and it is going to be second guessed until the Giants win super bowl with him as a major contributor, or he is gone without a SB... It will likely die down some, but not all the way, if DG is gone.

It was such pivotable moment in Giant's history, that is stands above all others for the foreseeable future.

As you know, I hated the pick at the time, and to this day I believe it was a colossal mistake. I want to be clear though. I for one am first and foremost a Giants fan. I want all this to work out and for the Giants to be adding to their trophy case. So if there is some middle ground being sought, rest assured, that I have accepted the Barkley pick and I for one root for Barkley every time he is out there. I root for Daniel Jones every time he is out there. I root for every player on the roster to do well. However, there is a big difference, for me at least, between rooting, and looking at the team with a critical lens.
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