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NFC East rookie grades (from NFL.com)

M.S. : 2/11/2020 9:37 am
Giants get a very nice A- for their 2019 Draft!

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RE: RE: I choose to be in the glass half full (OK, 25% full) camp but  
jcn56 : 2/11/2020 3:16 pm : link
In comment 14808947 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14808938 Del Shofner said:


Quote:


I don't fault Greg and others for their views, which on the present state of facts are not unreasonable.



I don't fault them for their views. You are what your record says you are.

However, I do think some of their justifications for their views are a little near sighted and possibly unfair.

We are at rock bottom. We are trying to climb out of a gigantic hole that's been dug over nearly the course of a decade. I see more positive in the youth of this team than I have in a LONG time. It allows me to be optimistic.

I think one of the biggest things people get wrapped up in is separating the old from the new. We are only two years post Jerry Reese and four post Tom Coughlin. We have clearly not found the right coach.

...



I agree with you up until that point. And others do as well.

Where we diverge is on what the Giants haven't done - find the right GM, and find the right scouts.

In that department, only Gettleman and Koncz are new - everyone else is old guard. They weren't working then, and to date, it doesn't seem like they're working now.

So while we hope that Judge and his staff are the goods, there's always the chance that the underlying talent is still not good enough for anyone to get off the ground, and it would be accountable to the one constant that has remained in place since the start of the Eli era, the scouting department.
And yet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2020 3:17 pm : link
when Gettleman had a 15-1 season and a SB appearance in Carolina, all sorts of explanations are given on how that wasn't really his record. It was more of Hurney's.

When it is pointed out he's the most successful GM in Panthers history, by record, it is looked at as him walking into a stacked team. When 50% of the starters in 2019 were players drafted by him, he's still knocked as a shitty GM whose drafts are overrated.

If his record is what it is, then it should go both ways.
RE: And yet..  
Big Blue '56 : 2/11/2020 3:24 pm : link
In comment 14809062 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
when Gettleman had a 15-1 season and a SB appearance in Carolina, all sorts of explanations are given on how that wasn't really his record. It was more of Hurney's.

When it is pointed out he's the most successful GM in Panthers history, by record, it is looked at as him walking into a stacked team. When 50% of the starters in 2019 were players drafted by him, he's still knocked as a shitty GM whose drafts are overrated.

If his record is what it is, then it should go both ways.


Iirc, weren’t many on here at that juncture, lamenting us keeping Reese and letting DG “slip away?”
Defending Gettleman is not an easy task especially if the critics  
LBH15 : 2/11/2020 3:28 pm : link
come at it with different rationals. Nevertheless, if you want to defend him because he put up a 15 win season in Charlotte then can he at least get to half that with the Giants in a season before its worth the debate?

And congrats to him for the rookie grades on his draft picks and hopefully they become super Sophs.
RE: And yet..  
Thegratefulhead : 2/11/2020 3:28 pm : link
In comment 14809062 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
when Gettleman had a 15-1 season and a SB appearance in Carolina, all sorts of explanations are given on how that wasn't really his record. It was more of Hurney's.

When it is pointed out he's the most successful GM in Panthers history, by record, it is looked at as him walking into a stacked team. When 50% of the starters in 2019 were players drafted by him, he's still knocked as a shitty GM whose drafts are overrated.

If his record is what it is, then it should go both ways.
I give the man credit for 15-1.

You are getting shit for all kinds of directions and different people.

I am not calling DG any names...EVER.

I will even give a total pass for year 1.

4-12 was shit.

This is the year, he has money and 2 drafts behind him.

He is on his second coach.

I want to give him the whole year in 2020.

Everyone needs to be able to agree the arrow is pointing up. It needs to be obvious to all.

Then, he will get credit. I can't give him credit for anything right now. It is too much suck for me. Sundays have not been fun AT ALL!
RE: And yet..  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2020 3:58 pm : link
In comment 14809062 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
when Gettleman had a 15-1 season and a SB appearance in Carolina, all sorts of explanations are given on how that wasn't really his record. It was more of Hurney's.

When it is pointed out he's the most successful GM in Panthers history, by record, it is looked at as him walking into a stacked team. When 50% of the starters in 2019 were players drafted by him, he's still knocked as a shitty GM whose drafts are overrated.

If his record is what it is, then it should go both ways.

I'm still not seeing how it's mutually exclusive.

When given a solid roster, DG showed a very good ability add to that foundation and manage a successful program, though it's absolutely worth noting that he left that job due to what he perceived as a lack of autonomy.

When given a roster that was much weaker and presumably required a lot more work, DG admitted to doing a poor job of assessing the roster when he took over, and has made several missteps in the gut job that he then undertook in reshaping the roster.

And, as with any other job in any other industry, it's entirely possible that the struggles at a subsequent job after previous success at a different job help illustrate the variances that can be prevalent - sometimes it's environmental, and sometimes it's that the individual wasn't as good as their prior success indicated, or vice versa, that their subsequent struggles might not be entirely their fault.

But overall, there's this - if we're supposed to give DG full credit for 15-1, then aren't you inherently saying that the results of his third season with a team is entirely a reflection of the job he's doing there? So no more excuses after this year?
I've said.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2020 4:04 pm : link
continually that DG either affirms he's leading the team's rebuild this year or he's fired.

And while things can be mutually exclusive, the assumption is that a "good GM" or a non-terrible GM would be posting better results or would have built the team up already. I would vehemently disagree with that.

We went an entire stretch of drafts that yielded few starters. Compare that to Gettleman and the Panthers where even this past season, half of the team's starters were guys he drafted. Reese ended up having a couple of drafts that were barren of starting players 3 years later.

I still think many people here dismiss or underestimate the massive job it is to turn around 8 years of sub-par drafts.
Just wanna throw my 3 1/2 cents into this thread  
M.S. : 2/11/2020 4:11 pm : link

And full disclosure: I am not a Gettleman naysayer on this site.

Isn't it just possible that Gettleman -- considering where the team was when he took over, plus his free agents, plus his Drafts -- deserves a middling grade with the caveat that his final grade cannot be rendered until at least the end of the 2020 season (if not beyond)?

If you look..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2020 4:12 pm : link
at this record of drafts - it yielded such a poor roster construction:

2011 - Only one player still active in the league
Price A.

2012 - Every player out of football

2013 - Pugh, Hankins and Da Monster only players still active. None with the giants

2014 - Beckham, Richburg and Kennard the only players in the league. None with the Giants

2015 - Flowers, Collins and Hart still in the league. None with the Giants

2016 - Apple, Shepard, Goodson and Thompson players still in the league

Shepard is the lone giant on the roster from the 2011-2016 drfats
RE: I've said.  
Thegratefulhead : 2/11/2020 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14809103 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
continually that DG either affirms he's leading the team's rebuild this year or he's fired.

And while things can be mutually exclusive, the assumption is that a "good GM" or a non-terrible GM would be posting better results or would have built the team up already. I would vehemently disagree with that.

We went an entire stretch of drafts that yielded few starters. Compare that to Gettleman and the Panthers where even this past season, half of the team's starters were guys he drafted. Reese ended up having a couple of drafts that were barren of starting players 3 years later.

I still think many people here dismiss or underestimate the massive job it is to turn around 8 years of sub-par drafts.
We agree. I guess we are just arguing if he deserves any credit so far. I am unwilling to go there until after this season.
"Shepard is the lone giant on the roster from the 2011-2016 drfats...  
Brown_Hornet : 2/11/2020 5:19 pm : link
…"
This is significant. And is good reason that DG deserves some latitude.
RE: I've said.  
jcn56 : 2/11/2020 5:20 pm : link
In comment 14809103 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
continually that DG either affirms he's leading the team's rebuild this year or he's fired.

And while things can be mutually exclusive, the assumption is that a "good GM" or a non-terrible GM would be posting better results or would have built the team up already. I would vehemently disagree with that.

We went an entire stretch of drafts that yielded few starters. Compare that to Gettleman and the Panthers where even this past season, half of the team's starters were guys he drafted. Reese ended up having a couple of drafts that were barren of starting players 3 years later.

I still think many people here dismiss or underestimate the massive job it is to turn around 8 years of sub-par drafts.


Reese was canned for those drafts, and for good reason. While at the same time, Gettleman traded talent on the roster for picks and cap space, which he proceeded to do very little with.

Reese was a good GM for a stretch, then fell off and deserved his firing. Thus far, Gettleman's record in FA is poor, and his drafting really hasn't been much better despite the players being 'starters' on a bad team. At this point, all you can do with Gettleman is hope that his players turn out better than they've showed thus far.
I'd have to..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2020 5:26 pm : link
think that Gettleman's drafts have definitely been much better than Reese's, especially if you add in his drafts in Carolina.

The early returns are good for all of the first round picks except Baker. And he really hasn't had outright flops. We even got production from a late-round LB.

Again - he's been gone from Carolina and this past season half of their starters were his draftees. I'm not sure we could say that for Reese's picks at any time during or after his tenure, but I haven't looked at that in detail.
RE: I'd have to..  
Greg from LI : 2/11/2020 5:35 pm : link
In comment 14809148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Again - he's been gone from Carolina and this past season half of their starters were his draftees.


Considering that Carolina sucked, I'm not sure that's the endorsement you think it is.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 2/11/2020 5:36 pm : link
If DG's drafts were that good, the team wouldn't be as bad as it has been.

They're promising. I really like Jones, Lawrence, and Slayton. I need to see Hernandez and Jones take the next step to think he's done a good job drafting.
RE: I'd have to..  
jcn56 : 2/11/2020 5:58 pm : link
In comment 14809148 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
think that Gettleman's drafts have definitely been much better than Reese's, especially if you add in his drafts in Carolina.

The early returns are good for all of the first round picks except Baker. And he really hasn't had outright flops. We even got production from a late-round LB.

Again - he's been gone from Carolina and this past season half of their starters were his draftees. I'm not sure we could say that for Reese's picks at any time during or after his tenure, but I haven't looked at that in detail.


I would have to think you're referring to a select choice of drafts - because the one guy built teams that won two championships. The other joined a team and contributed to a SB appearance (and loss).

Reese had sustained success despite a littany of injuries to players drafted, having to navigate around a championship (which normally results in a down period because of the cap implications of winning) and never really having a very high draft pick.

In two years, Gettleman has drafted 2nd and 6th overall. He moved a player for several other players in return. He willfully ripped apart a team that was a year removed from a playoff appearance, and rebuilt it with practically the same holes in place (his pleas to win the game at the LOS went nowhere, with no pass rushers and an offensive line that was every bit as bad as his predecessor).

His record in free agency has been abysmal. His one FA pick would be a guy that everyone who likes to bash Bettcher would have to credit him for (Golden). One player was so bad he ended up making $180k per yard rushed, another so bad he didn't make it out of the season (Omameh).

I don't think he was terrible in Carolina, but his record there doesn't inspire much confidence. If the best you can do is compare to the last few years of Reese's tenure, where he was performing at a level that justified firing him, I'm not sure you're doing him any favors.
RE: RE: Gettlement missed a big opportunity to improve the OL in 2019 Draft  
sb from NYT Forum : 2/11/2020 6:06 pm : link
In comment 14808781 aGiantGuy said:
Quote:
In comment 14808756 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


You know, then think he said he'd improve the day he was hired? Here are all the guys he could have taken either instead of Baker at #30 or at #37 and kept the 4th and 5th round picks.

Kaleb McGary OT #31
Jawan Taylor OT #35 (NFL, PFF All-Rookie)
Greg Little OT#37
Cody Ford OT#38
Dalton Risner OT#41 (NFL, PFF All-Rookie)
Elgton Jenkins C#44 (NFL PFF All-Rookie)
Erik McCoy C#48 (NFL, PFF All-Rookie)

It wasn't a mystery that we sucked at OT and C in 2018. Anyone one of they guys would have been a better pick than Baker, especially considering Gettlemen's plan to continue to draft CBs in 2019 (and Beal, who cost a high 3rd rounder in the 2019 draft).



Maybe you don’t remember that our starting tackles were Ereck Flowers and Bobby Hart when he got here, Pugh, and Jerry Jones at guard.
Btw, McGary looked terrible for Atlanta and he’s being moved to Guard, Taylor was ok, little and Ford were not plus starters in their first year. Jenkins and McCoy are studs. But who would’ve played CB for us? Beal?? Ballentine?? Would I take McCoy or Jenkins over Baker? Yes. The rest of them, I personally wouldn’t but what do I know



Yeah, no shit or OL was garbage when Gettleman got here. That's why he should have used more than 2 picks (one a 7th rounder) on OL in the past two years. Instead of half our 2019 draft on CBs.

Some of you are so quick to defend Gettleman that you don't even know what you are arguing.
...  
christian : 2/11/2020 6:44 pm : link
I've never seen good numbers, and you can certainly find anecdotal examples, but I'd be curious on real data around draft + career expectancy.

What's the overall percentage of drafted players still in the league 5-9 years later? I'd bet really low. What's the average number of starters per team-draft who are in the league 5 years? I'd bet really low.

Gettleman dumped a lot of players Reese acquired who are still in the NFL. Many were knuckleheads, and that's fair.

It was Gettleman's right to purge the roster. Another option was keep more players and hire better coaching to get better output.
Folks  
Bill2 : 2/11/2020 6:54 pm : link
are taking outcomes that have a lot of input factors ( some under GM control, some a lot, some barely and some nowhere near a GMS control) and ascribing them to the GM.

Also, many of these judgements are too early to slot from 0 ( failure) to 100 (home run)

Both kinds of fallacies are being used to give credit to DG and to condemn DG.

Feelings pulling in scraps.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 2/11/2020 7:00 pm : link
I read the article - I don't think the Skins/Giants should get the same grade. Jones had a much better rookie year than Haskins.
Did they  
XBRONX : 2/11/2020 7:00 pm : link
watch Remmers play? He was horrible.
RE: ...  
uther99 : 2/11/2020 7:45 pm : link
In comment 14809206 christian said:
Quote:
I've never seen good numbers, and you can certainly find anecdotal examples, but I'd be curious on real data around draft + career expectancy.

What's the overall percentage of drafted players still in the league 5-9 years later? I'd bet really low. What's the average number of starters per team-draft who are in the league 5 years? I'd bet really low.

Gettleman dumped a lot of players Reese acquired who are still in the NFL. Many were knuckleheads, and that's fair.

It was Gettleman's right to purge the roster. Another option was keep more players and hire better coaching to get better output.


I stumbled across this guy looking for data. This is data from 2015 about how many 5 year starters teams could expect from that draft. Answer - not many

https://nationalfootballpost.com/draft-expectations-by-nfl-team/
another article  
uther99 : 2/11/2020 7:48 pm : link
about career length and draft position.

https://nationalfootballpost.com/breaking-down-the-nfl-draft/
RE: RE: ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2020 9:11 pm : link
In comment 14809227 uther99 said:
Quote:
In comment 14809206 christian said:


Quote:


I've never seen good numbers, and you can certainly find anecdotal examples, but I'd be curious on real data around draft + career expectancy.

What's the overall percentage of drafted players still in the league 5-9 years later? I'd bet really low. What's the average number of starters per team-draft who are in the league 5 years? I'd bet really low.

Gettleman dumped a lot of players Reese acquired who are still in the NFL. Many were knuckleheads, and that's fair.

It was Gettleman's right to purge the roster. Another option was keep more players and hire better coaching to get better output.



I stumbled across this guy looking for data. This is data from 2015 about how many 5 year starters teams could expect from that draft. Answer - not many

https://nationalfootballpost.com/draft-expectations-by-nfl-team/

So is all your internet data from 2015?
RE: Folks  
LBH15 : 2/11/2020 9:27 pm : link
In comment 14809211 Bill2 said:
Quote:
are taking outcomes that have a lot of input factors ( some under GM control, some a lot, some barely and some nowhere near a GMS control) and ascribing them to the GM.

Also, many of these judgements are too early to slot from 0 ( failure) to 100 (home run)

Both kinds of fallacies are being used to give credit to DG and to condemn DG.

Feelings pulling in scraps.


Uh huh. Anything actually to subscribe to yet or not?
...  
christian : 2/11/2020 9:38 pm : link
I have a hard time blaming Reese's drafts from 2011 for why the Giants suck 9 years later (good explanation why they sucked '12-'17).

I'm all for blaming 2015 on -- but it's a more complex when those drafts produced 3 or more career NFL players.

Giants were also firing a lot of coaches during that stretch, hmmm?
RE: RE: RE: 9-23  
djm : 2/11/2020 9:59 pm : link
In comment 14808748 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14808735 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


How can you blame DG for the record his first season here? He just joined in the offseason. Things don't change that fast.



You've got a point there - the second season was such a drastic improvement.


Hey look you want to take the stance that one should never ever ever give a regime or GM more than two years of tenure before sacking them? Before condemning them as total abject failures? Ok. But you’re going to hear about the dozens and dozens of instances where teams were rewarded after sticking with a losing regime. I mean the very GM who just got inducted into canton, George young, regressed in year 2. Yet we’re crazy for even whispering a cautious defense about DG??? All of you, gimme a break. Don’t act like its never fucking happened.
George young’s giants went 6-10 in 1979  
djm : 2/11/2020 10:08 pm : link
4-12 in 1980.

He’s gone if you’re making the decisions back then. Gone. Poof! See ya! Who’s next on the docket ?

Ill also use this as my weekly excuse to remind everyone that accorsi was coming off a 6-22 two year run heading into the 2005 season.

Honestly I’m surprised at how much attention and scrutiny the GM even gets around here lately. Every move every dollar spent leads to a referendum around here on the GM. Now we’re combing through the wins losses record and dying the fire the GM ? GMs aren’t coaches. They are held to different standards and timelines. It’s apples and oranges. You can bring in talent and improve things and not see those improvements manifest into wins right away.
And just to expand on my point  
djm : 2/11/2020 10:16 pm : link
On the flip side, let’s say the giants got just a little bit lucky and stole one more game in 2018 and 1-2 more games this season. Does that make DG that much better a GM? If the giants record is 3 games better would you all be happy then? You’d sleep that much better at night concerning DG? I wouldn’t. He’d be the same GM. Knows young players knows how to build a team. Not perfect maybe a little too stubborn but he can draft. That much is clear.
RE: George young’s giants went 6-10 in 1979  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2020 10:18 pm : link
In comment 14809313 djm said:
Quote:
4-12 in 1980.

He’s gone if you’re making the decisions back then. Gone. Poof! See ya! Who’s next on the docket ?

Ill also use this as my weekly excuse to remind everyone that accorsi was coming off a 6-22 two year run heading into the 2005 season.

Honestly I’m surprised at how much attention and scrutiny the GM even gets around here lately. Every move every dollar spent leads to a referendum around here on the GM. Now we’re combing through the wins losses record and dying the fire the GM ? GMs aren’t coaches. They are held to different standards and timelines. It’s apples and oranges. You can bring in talent and improve things and not see those improvements manifest into wins right away.

GY is irrelevant - that was pre-cap era.

Accorsi was a meh GM on balance, that was made to look better by Eli and Coughlin.

I'm sorry that you're not willing to accept that the finances are a very real part of success in the current NFL.
Quoting our record the last 2 years  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2020 10:30 pm : link
in a thread discussing a good draft is fucking useless. It’s as if teams with good records don’t have good drafts. So I really don’t know what the point is.

We needed to start somewhere and hopefully the last 2 drafts are just that.
RE: Quoting our record the last 2 years  
jcn56 : 2/11/2020 10:56 pm : link
In comment 14809325 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
in a thread discussing a good draft is fucking useless. It’s as if teams with good records don’t have good drafts. So I really don’t know what the point is.

We needed to start somewhere and hopefully the last 2 drafts are just that.


It's the response to the equally as useless point that DG drafted X starters. Draft picks starting on a good team would be a testament to your scouting ability. Being a starter who isn't any good on a shit team shouldn't count for anything.
'starter' may be a nebulous term on a crappy team but  
Eric on Li : 2/11/2020 11:02 pm : link
it's truly breathtaking how many resident team building experts refuse to give Gettleman any credit for 2 solid drafts. They haven't been perfect but they have been a major major upgrade over the draft results from 2012-2017. And most importantly the at the time very unpopular QB choice so far looks promising.
RE: RE: Quoting our record the last 2 years  
UConn4523 : 2/11/2020 11:26 pm : link
In comment 14809335 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14809325 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


in a thread discussing a good draft is fucking useless. It’s as if teams with good records don’t have good drafts. So I really don’t know what the point is.

We needed to start somewhere and hopefully the last 2 drafts are just that.



It's the response to the equally as useless point that DG drafted X starters. Draft picks starting on a good team would be a testament to your scouting ability. Being a starter who isn't any good on a shit team shouldn't count for anything.


Ehh, Jones, Barkley, Lawrence can start on any team in the league (obviously not teams that don’t need a QB). Then you have the next tier of guys like Slayton and Hernandez that probably start for a lot of teams. Then you have the next few who, with better coaching probably have solid starter upside as well. There’s infinitely more talent that was drafted the last 2 years than in the 5 or so prior, IMO.

Point is any thread that looks at any shred of positivity is struck down by people who have nothing better to do but flex their internet muscles. I can’t believe how much time is spent looking at the glass half empty all the time but here we are.

We know what are record is. We know we stunk. None of us can do anything about it so why act like what you say matters at all? If you don’t want to talk about promising rookies then maybe move on with your day?
Some quick facts on the drafts from '12-'19:  
Eric on Li : 2/11/2020 11:37 pm : link
39 players got drafted in the 6 drafts between '12-'17. Just 2 got second contracts here (OBJ, Shep). Just 2 made pro bowls (OBJ, LC). Only 5 others got multi-year contracts elsewhere (Hart, Collins, Richburg, Pugh, Kennard). About half of the 39 players drafted never started here - and those were also some very bad teams where the 'starter' designation wouldn't have carried much meaning.

I counted 15 players who won starting jobs here beyond an injury fill in - and that number includes guys who were poor starters like Bobby Hart, Ereck Flowers, Reuben Randle, and Darian Thompson. The most starters from any single draft were 3 in 2014 with OBJ, Richburg, and Kennard.

The last 2 drafts are certainly still early to evaluate, but the numbers are pretty simple - 17 players have been drafted and 13 have gotten starts, 1 made a pro bowl (Saquon). Lauletta the only one no longer in the org.

2018 draft had 2 guys who have started every game they've been healthy for, and 2 guys who have started more than 10 games each who still have a shot (Carter/Hill). At a minimum that draft class has already performed as well as the best draft class in the 6 years prior.

The 2019 draft class is pacing even better so far with 5 guys having won starting roles in their rookie year - Jones, Slayton, Lawrence, Connelly, Baker and a few others who got an opportunity later in the year and looked good like Love.
RE: If you look..  
fanatic II : 2/11/2020 11:51 pm : link
In comment 14809112 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
at this record of drafts - it yielded such a poor roster construction:

2011 - Only one player still active in the league
Price A.

2012 - Every player out of football

2013 - Pugh, Hankins and Da Monster only players still active. None with the giants

2014 - Beckham, Richburg and Kennard the only players in the league. None with the Giants

2015 - Flowers, Collins and Hart still in the league. None with the Giants

2016 - Apple, Shepard, Goodson and Thompson players still in the league

Shepard is the lone giant on the roster from the 2011-2016 drfats


To put this in context during the same time Dallas has 14 players, Philadelphia 10, and Washington 3.
RE: RE: Quoting our record the last 2 years  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/12/2020 1:24 am : link
In comment 14809335 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14809325 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


in a thread discussing a good draft is fucking useless. It’s as if teams with good records don’t have good drafts. So I really don’t know what the point is.

We needed to start somewhere and hopefully the last 2 drafts are just that.



It's the response to the equally as useless point that DG drafted X starters. Draft picks starting on a good team would be a testament to your scouting ability. Being a starter who isn't any good on a shit team shouldn't count for anything.


To put it in context, you were the one discussing how Gettleman really hasn't drafted well. Not sure where the evidence is to back that up. In Carolina, he's been departed and 11 starters are among his draftees. Here, his initial record is still much better than Reese's.

The response is more to show that not everything Gettleman touches is shit. And I know many are banging the Carolina is shit drum - well, they were 5-3 last season before injuries derailed their season.
fanaticII..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/12/2020 1:25 am : link
thanks for providing a comparison. I;m sure we'll hear some excuses on why that is.....
LBH  
Bill2 : 2/12/2020 6:56 am : link
Cant understand your reply. Nor why you would reply to a text not meant for you or about you

Go for it though.
...  
christian : 2/12/2020 7:13 am : link
Drafting well is critical, no doubt.

Going back to 2011 as a measuring stick of the current roster gets a little fuzzy when you consider the statistical likelihood any player will still be in the league.

I'd argue 5 drafts back is a fair measure, and Reese's last 3 drafts were not good. Missing on 2 straight 1st round picks at critical positions of need haunts this team.

That said, if this is about tallying up the number of draft picks over a period, there are many Reese players going back to 2011 still in the league that Gettleman moved away from, and just in terms of football, many of them are better than their replacements.
I think looking back to 2011  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2020 7:46 am : link
is a stretch as well but the overall point is if Reese drafted better at all it wouldn’t have sunk the roster for as long as it did. It also appears that the past 2 drafts have been better than any of Reese’s during his awful stretch - I think that’s fair to say as well.

This thread had a pretty simple subject that got derailed for some strange reason. Would be nice to talk about how the news guys will/could be a focal point moving forward.
I think the hard and fast point some are making  
LBH15 : 2/12/2020 7:51 am : link
is that there are many subjective measuring sticks for a GM so just go to win / loss.

Here come all the debates why that is subjective as well, wait for it —
Well  
Bill2 : 2/12/2020 8:02 am : link
I guess you feel very confident that you have a superior and unassailable perspective on how to judge a Gm two year in.

Seems you think you have such a superior way to think about this that you can scorn other perspectives and posters

That would be quite a contribution to NFL owners. Im all ears

You got the platform. Regal us with your wisdom
RE: I think looking back to 2011  
Klaatu : 2/12/2020 8:07 am : link
In comment 14809412 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
is a stretch as well but the overall point is if Reese drafted better at all it wouldn’t have sunk the roster for as long as it did. It also appears that the past 2 drafts have been better than any of Reese’s during his awful stretch - I think that’s fair to say as well.

This thread had a pretty simple subject that got derailed for some strange reason. Would be nice to talk about how the news guys will/could be a focal point moving forward.


It's not a stretch if the mistakes of the past are being repeated in the present.
I am not advocating that won and loss is the right way either.  
LBH15 : 2/12/2020 8:13 am : link
In fact, I don’t feel there is any perfect barometer to point to.

The debate as to whether Gettleman is doing a good job or not and whether he deserved a third year has far too many twists and turns. Mostly because the disarray this franchise was really in when he arrived.

His biggest miss is really how the hell he didn’t see it.
So if the rookies are promising  
UConn4523 : 2/12/2020 8:14 am : link
and the 2 drafts turn out to be no worse than solid, what mistakes are you talking about?
just for the record  
Bill2 : 2/12/2020 8:22 am : link
I think DG is not good enough for a team in this position. I also think the old paradigm of an all knowing GM is not a fit for how decisions have to get made when over 50 talent decisions get made in a year in a sport with a 25% injury rate and an average career of 4 years.

Im in favor of an admin GM with a role on a more balanced input from coaches/scouting. I didn't think McAdoo's staff or Shurmur's were good inouts to talent acquisition or development or motivation.

Absent other strong inputs all GMs are vulnerable to decisions that don't work out. imo

I am yet to see who is better. And Id rather go the route the Giants did which is to get new talent in close to the ground ( coaches) and promote those to greater voices while moving to a coaching staff heavy evaluation process and an admin support role (on balance) for any GM

But to me, meanwhile, universal condemnation applied to all DG choices and situations before and after they are made and proven out gets in the way of good thinking and good discussion.
RE: So if the rookies are promising  
Klaatu : 2/12/2020 8:25 am : link
In comment 14809434 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and the 2 drafts turn out to be no worse than solid, what mistakes are you talking about?


As I've spelled out in several other threads, not factoring in positional value when making picks. CB's and RB's over OT's, for example. 2011, 2012, 2016, and again in 2018 and 2019.
LBH  
Bill2 : 2/12/2020 8:32 am : link
On that we agree

I can only assume some combination of illness and need to see if new coaching was a factor on a team that stopped playing for its prior coach...or the preferred initial path of the owners ( All Gms take blame for owner mistakes...its the job) led to that assessment

Because to me, and I think almost everyone on here - a total cleanout and turnaround was needed.

A big investment on the OL I don't get upset about because that's needed almost before a new QB. But that's about it
Btw  
Bill2 : 2/12/2020 8:37 am : link
Thank you for the good response
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