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Williams, Cleveland Plain Dealer on Isaiah Simmons

Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 9:36 am
Quote:

ďIsaiah Simmons, 6-4, 230 pounds, Clemson, junior

When discussing Clemsonís do-it-all defender, it is important to first understand how he was deployed by the Tigers this season.

Check these numbers out:

* Of his 822 snaps this season, Simmons lined up in the box as a traditional linebacker 299 times (36 percent), according to Pro Football Focus.

* He served as Clemsonís deep free safety 132 times (16 percent), and as a defensive end or edge rusher on 116 snaps (14 percent).

* Most impressively, Simmons lined up in the slot as a souped-up nickel corner 262 times (32 percent), proving more than capable of defending the nationís best tight ends and slot receivers in space.

As the numbers show, Simmons can play anywhere. Which is why defining him as a linebacker or safety is pointless.

Pro Football Focus gave Simmons a 92 coverage grade this season, meaning he locked up the nationís best tight ends and slot receivers. He scored 85 overall or higher in pass rushing, run defense and tackling. Simply, he doesnít have a weakness.

There isnít much to dislike. As a safety, he is the best in his class. The same can be said as a linebacker. At his size, he projects as an every-down player who can do it all.

Usually, Simmons spent his Saturday afternoons overpowering blockers and proving too fast and too big for ball carriers to juke him. Simmons is as much a ďcanít missĒ prospect as there is in this class.Ē



Sy?


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RE: A few years back  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14810698 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Giants were supposedly interested in a similar player,name was Zach Cunningham.Remember Jerry kept passing on him.He went late 2nd round.

I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy


Zach Cunningham is an absolute beast for Houston, please use a different example
And Zach Cunningham  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 5:31 pm : link
Was an absolute tackling machine, with bad feet in coverage, I donít if there are any similarities besides their wingspan.
Not enough dog  
JonC : 2/13/2020 6:21 pm : link
and not enough OLB to be a difference maker in the NFL to the extent I want from a #4 overall pick and LB. He's a Safety, or he's another Leonard Floyd. Not impressed, we should expect a smarter use of a high draft pick.
or he's another Leonard Floyd  
Torrag : 2/13/2020 6:49 pm : link
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?
I suggest another similar ball player,Kenneth Murray Oklahoma  
lcrim : 2/13/2020 6:53 pm : link
I don't particularly agree that the 4th pick's need for value is met w/ by any OT.
As I've stated elsewhere here, we do need a defensive play-maker and another name thatcould be viewed @ 4th is Murray.
Larry
RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
uther99 : 2/13/2020 7:45 pm : link
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.


Simmons played in the JV league
RE: RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 7:57 pm : link
In comment 14810826 uther99 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:


Quote:


Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.



Simmons played in the JV league
He made both J.K Dobbins and Clyde Edwards Helaire look slow, with game changing tackles. That is not JV, that is two future NFL starting rbís.
bw in dc  
BigBlueCane : 2/13/2020 7:57 pm : link
Gettleman's opinion ain't likely to important with regards to Simmons. Rather the opinions of all the college coaches that coached against Simmons, some of whom are on Judge's staff will likely count more.

Anyone's dismissing Simmons based on comparisons to old-school LB's is foolish. He and Becton are the two most likely candidates for the Giants to draft at #4.
Seems like a perfect fit to me  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 8:07 pm : link
The 3-4 is designed to have one Thumper who takes on blocks, mostly the backside guard, and one ILB who is a free roamer, mainly free of block shedding responsibilities and is burdened with making sideline to sideline tackles. Why invest in all these dlineman that can eat double teams if weíre not going to invest in a LB that can thrive in space?? We are one of the few perfect situations for Simmons to flourish as an ILB
Going way back, but he sounds like he could be Brad Van Pelt  
Ivan15 : 2/13/2020 8:09 pm : link
The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set.

If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.
I don't like him at 4  
uther99 : 2/13/2020 8:13 pm : link
He will get run over in run game and needs a free run to blitz effectively. Doubt he can cover NFL slot WRs. I don't like tweeners, swiss army knife, unicorns, as he is called. they never pan out

If giants pick him, hope i am wrong
RE: Going way back, but he sounds like he could be Brad Van Pelt  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14810849 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set.

If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.


If Simmons can handle covering a TE as a backside curl defender that would free Peppers up to play roll safety and rob in-breaking routes. Deandre Baker would no longer worry about if his man runs slants, posts or ins, and can sit on comeback and streaks. The zone coverage implications are tremendous and donít get me started on how it would open up Peppers to be a monster blitzer off the edge in man coverage if Simmons can truly lock down teís. Please start thinking outside the box
No to Simmons  
The_Boss : 2/13/2020 9:01 pm : link
Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. Iím more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. Iíd probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.
RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
JonC : 2/13/2020 9:38 pm : link
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?


What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.
RE: No to Simmons  
RobCarpenter : 2/13/2020 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14810874 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. Iím more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. Iíd probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.


Think I agree that Okudah should be the pick. Having a CB that can cover 1:1 can do wonders for the pass rush.
Zero Interest in Simmons  
WillVAB : 2/13/2020 9:47 pm : link
Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.
RE: RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
GFAN52 : 2/13/2020 9:50 pm : link
In comment 14810886 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:


Quote:


Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?



What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.


JonC would you select Okudah at #4 if he's there?
Yes  
JonC : 2/13/2020 9:54 pm : link
but I would stack up my trade down options before making the pick. We're hurting for quality talent in the front seven and OL.
RE: Zero Interest in Simmons  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:10 pm : link
In comment 14810888 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.


Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...
I guess Trevor Lawrence is not getting drafted high next year  
SteelGiant : 2/13/2020 10:48 pm : link
because he plays in a JV league.

The reasons some of you come up with to not like someone are so freaking foolish.

So it was his weight which I already gave examples of good cover linebackers his size. Then it the fact he plays in the ACC which produced the under sized can't play in the NFL Aaron Donald.

Seriously - If we do not draft him I will assume it is because the professional experts saw something they dont like or they saw something they love with someone else. I am a Giants fan and I will have to trust them to make the right decision like Daniel Jones. ACC by the way - another JV player

Anyway - I hope the opposite happens - I hope there are things our scouts see in him and think he will be awesome and it turns out they are right. That is my wish right now. He could be really special if he can produce in the NFL - plain and simple

There are no sure things and I am not a professional scout. I like what I see from the player I could be wrong, and scouts get things wrong all the time too. But his weight and what division of college football he played in are just silly reasons not to like a football player. The dude produced in college is worth a 1st round pick in the NFL - he deserves a little more credit than what some are giving him.

The whole I like him at 15 but not 4 is another argument that I never like. That is the Daniel Jones - I like him 17 and not at 6 crap. You get one 1st round pick in most cases - and you need to get it right regardless of what pick it is.

Like I said before I hope that Miami wants to trade up into our spot for a QB and we get an extra pick, that lets us take a chance with a possible dynamic player like Simmons and still have a chance to get an OT. I have not idea which OT is worth the 4th pick vs the other OTs but Im not a scout.

All things being equal -which they may not be- there a good group of Oline and WRs in this draft and not a lot LBs. I am ok with taking the risk vs reward with Simmons
'What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 1:12 am : link
This assumes facts not in evidence. Why does he have to be a 'front seven defender'? That wasn't his primary role in college. He played multiple positions and less than 40% were as a front seven defender.

I don't understand this urge to pigeonhole him to a position on the field he didn't even for play the majority of his snaps.
Remember Taylor mays anyone?  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 7:30 am : link
Guy could run like the wind in a straight line. Big hitter who played amazingly well in college. In the nfl you defend a totally different type of athlete. Couldnít turn his hips and run and I see that same problem with simmons. In the NFL he will be off the ball even more. He gets killed in the run game. Heís a slot corner big nickel player who probably could not defend the elite nfl tight ends and slot wr in the nfl. Again, the athletes in college vs the pros is a big difference which people seem to forget. Lining up all over the place in college is a wonderful, rarely translates to the nfl. . He isnít Devon white. He isnít roquan smith. He isnít an elite chase and hit linebacker like Kenneth Murray. Many of you have pointed out his defense of moss when they played LSU. Thaddeus moss will most likely go undrafted and not make the nfl.
There's no urge to pigeonhole him  
JonC : 2/14/2020 8:44 am : link
He just is what he is to my eye, which isn't what I consider a priority of skills to draft at #4 overall. I understand what his strengths were in college and that reinforces my point as to what he will be in the NFL.
"We're going to be multiple."  
LBH15 : 2/14/2020 8:49 am : link
Yours truly,

Coach Judge
I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
JonC : 2/14/2020 8:51 am : link
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.
....  
ryanmkeane : 2/14/2020 9:47 am : link
Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say ďwell heís thisĒ or ďwell he canít play XĒ and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Iíd rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.
RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
section125 : 2/14/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14811000 JonC said:
Quote:
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.


Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?
RE: ....  
The_Boss : 2/14/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14811050 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say ďwell heís thisĒ or ďwell he canít play XĒ and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Iíd rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.


Youíre not taking a RT at 4. Youíd be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, heís your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isnít that what youíre looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OTís right now?
RE: RE: ....  
section125 : 2/14/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14811066 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14811050 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say ďwell heís thisĒ or ďwell he canít play XĒ and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Iíd rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.



Youíre not taking a RT at 4. Youíd be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, heís your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isnít that what youíre looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OTís right now?


Why not take a RT at #4 if he projects as all pro? Left side/right side does it really matter anymore? Teams often have two ERs or switch sides to give them a better chance to get to the QB. Yeah, the QB has a blindside, but with blitzes and stunts it isn't that big a difference like it once was.
You guys knocking him  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 10:33 am : link
For not being an elite block shedding talent I donít think truly understand his growth over the past couple years. In high school he was a 200 m champ and long jump champ, breaking school records in both. Ran the 200 in 22.07. Darius Slayton ran it in 21.73. He was a high safety and receiver in high school.

He was recruited as a db by Clemson. His sophomore year he was told he would play closer to the line of scrimmage in a rover safety role and that was most likely the first time he was ever taught any kind of block shedding technique. If you want to let that impact your evaluation of him, I think youíre missing the Forest for the trees.

Block shedding at a high level comes from footwork, explosion, and want to. Not including arm length and all the other minor factors. I donít know how much he wants it, but I know he has the other two. People who want a finished product at the college level arenít going to like Simmons, that simple.
Time will tell on his actual NFL level of play  
JonC : 2/14/2020 10:49 am : link
but I don't see this enormous limitless upside his supporters see.
There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 11:45 am : link
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.
RE: There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 11:58 am : link
In comment 14811169 Torrag said:
Quote:
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.


How do you feel about his hips? He doesnít necessarily travel low to the ground, but then I see the elite cod on the j.k. Dobbins tackle and I donít really care. But I see him try to cover a slot corner and if it wasnít for recovery speed and length, heíd definitely be burned.

I donít expect nfl d coordinators to put him 1 on 1 on a slot receiver. Stiff hips havenít hurt Jalen Ramsey much but I was interested if you saw the same on film
RE: There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14811169 Torrag said:
Quote:
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.


This is what many of the scouts seem to be saying. No guarantees of course, but thatís predominantly what Iíve been reading.
I think the hips are ok but he's tall and that's part of it  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 12:07 pm : link
His acceleration, recovery speed and length allow him to get the job done. 20 pass defenses and 6 INT's are the proof in the pudding. He erases tight ends.

There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.

I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.
RE: RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14811060 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14811000 JonC said:


Quote:


a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.



Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?


Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray
Like Iíve told you guys before  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 12:20 pm : link
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick
RE: I think the hips are ok but he's tall and that's part of it  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14811186 Torrag said:
Quote:
His acceleration, recovery speed and length allow him to get the job done. 20 pass defenses and 6 INT's are the proof in the pudding. He erases tight ends.

There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.

I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.

Cool, I see a lot of Ryan Shazier in my projection of him, others say itís not realistic but thatís what I see. He has that long femur length that makes it hard to get low but makes him so darn athletic and explosive, almost in the Lebron James mold. Canít wait to see what happens in April
I know I am coming off as big Simmons supporters  
SteelGiant : 2/14/2020 12:27 pm : link
but honestly I don't mean to be one cause I am not a scout. The real difference I think we are having collectively is less about Simmons himself and more about what we think NFL looks like today.

I am in the group of fans that sees the NFL changing drastically right in front of me. Defense today is not the defense of 10 years ago. The reason our defense has sucked is because the Giants have not adjusted the personnel to fit today game and the game of the future.

In the box safeties are new linebackers. That is why you saw peppers playing that spot all the time last year and you say Landon Collins playing there before him.

If you take Peppers 5'11 215 or Collins 6'0" 218 and made them 6'4" 235 - that is a linebacker in today's NFL.

This conversation reminds me of the NHL 7 years ago. The Pittsburgh Penguins showed the league that Puck moving defencemen and speed was more effective moving forward than big body punishing guys that were slow. Now everyone is looking for fast players and teams that refused to change look like the LA Kings - they were great but did not change with the times.

Players like Simmons failed before in the past just like there were fast smaller defensemen in the NHL that did not make it back then either. But now, in today's game these types of players could be all the rage.

Today's NFL - Lamar, Mahomes, Foles, Rodgers, even the Giants got a more mobile QB then before. Then there is the Ertz, Kelce, Kittle's of the league. You need to be able to counter that.

So the question I have - Can Simmons do that? Can he cover the Mobile TE, can he spy on the mobile QB? If the answer is no - then he is not what we need, but if the answer is yes then this is a no brainer for today's NFL. Stop with the semantics of position name - lets call it Striker. If you want to counteract what offenses are doing today, you dont want your safety doing that anymore - they need to help cover the back end, you need a specialist for the middle of the field you is fast enough to get the outside.
RE: Like Iíve told you guys before  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick


First off, LOL.

You are comparing a dude who was a 7th rd pick with barely any production at the college level to a top 5 projected pick.

And not only that but Kearse ran a 4.6 40 and had a 31í vert. Simmons has an 11í10 reach... that means he can jump and touch the top of the backboard... he will likely jump closer to 42í and he ran a 4.31 at clemsonís spring combine. There is no comparison athletically, Iím not even gonna get into the football traits.
'Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 2:43 pm : link
Awful attempt at a comp for Simmons. Kearse isn't even a poor man's Simmons, he's a broke ass man's. Terrible post.
RE: Not enough dog  
BobsYourUncle : 2/14/2020 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14810781 JonC said:
Quote:
and not enough OLB to be a difference maker in the NFL to the extent I want from a #4 overall pick and LB. He's a Safety, or he's another Leonard Floyd. Not impressed, we should expect a smarter use of a high draft pick.


+1
RE: RE: Zero Interest in Simmons  
WillVAB : 2/14/2020 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14810895 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810888 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.



Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...


So you have some magical scheme you can send to Judge so Simmons can run free all game long?

Simmons isnít a physical player. Massive hole imv. He makes plays when heís unblocked or trying to run around players. That wonít fly at the NFL level.

Heís prob best suited for a Simmons (Denver) type role (safety/slot corner) in the NFL but you donít take that top 5.

At best heís another niche player and the Giants donít need another one of those.
RE: RE: RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
WillVAB : 2/14/2020 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14811191 Tuckrule said:
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In comment 14811060 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14811000 JonC said:


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a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.



Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?



Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray


+1 on Murray. I think heís the best LB in the class.
When Judge was hired  
BigBlueCane : 2/14/2020 4:22 pm : link
he emphasized a philosophy of building around what a player can do vs bemoaning what a player could not.

Simmons can do a helluva of a lot and what he cannot do is a much smaller and shorter list.

Again looking for unicorns means you miss out on a lot of good horses.
RE: Like Iíve told you guys before  
bw in dc : 2/14/2020 4:50 pm : link
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick


Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?

Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.

So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."
RE: RE: Like Iíve told you guys before  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 5:12 pm : link
In comment 14811438 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick



Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?

Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.

So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."


I think he means a different Kearse who played safety on Deshaun Watsonís Clemson team. The NFL hasnít seen a player like Simmons in a long time, athletes with his build are usually playing basketball. You can not compare him to Taylor Mays because Mays played a majority of his snaps at cover 2 safety and still had less interceptions then Simmons. Justin Simmons ran a 4.6 at the combine and has crazy loose hips, again, not a solid comp at all.

And to answer the thought of a magical scheme, you donít need a magical scheme, the regular 3-4 is designed to have free roam LB, thatís why the d lineman in front are 2 gapping so that the linebackers can run free. Betcher ran a 1-gap 50 front, which would not be a good fit for Simmons unless he played money backer.

I like Kenneth Murray but he misdiagnoses a lot of plays and gets caught in no mans land, his acceleration and movement through trash is elite though. I think they will both be good to great players in the NFL. My preference is Simmons but I like both for NYG. You just canít coach length and pure speed.
'Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 6:19 pm : link
Jayron not Jevon. Completely different player and not who he was talking about.
RE: 'Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?'  
bw in dc : 2/14/2020 6:58 pm : link
In comment 14811476 Torrag said:
Quote:
Jayron not Jevon. Completely different player and not who he was talking about.


My bad. Thanks.

Need to start using my glasses when I try to read BBI off my phone... ;)
RE: 'Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is'  
Tuckrule : 2/18/2020 5:16 am : link
In comment 14811330 Torrag said:
Quote:
Awful attempt at a comp for Simmons. Kearse isn't even a poor man's Simmons, he's a broke ass man's. Terrible post.


You guys are missing the point. If the all world Clemson D coordinator saw similarities in those players you want him at 4. He‚Äôs a weak player. Look at his full game highlights. Look at bectons full game tape vs Clemson in that film Focus on Simmons everyone will change their mind after seeing that tape. The guy couldn‚Äôt stay on his feet in the run game. Kearse was smart enough to realize he can‚Äôt mix it up inside at linebacker. Simmons will be a safety in the nfl. He is not a linebacker. ‚ÄúOnly weakness is shedding blocks‚ÄĚ lmao. Only weakness. That‚Äôs half of fucking football is shedding locks if you plan to play anywhere near the los. Show me where you see blitz ability. His tackles for a loss are free rush lanes due to a hell of a talented defense. An impact linebacker who can shed blocks and use his hands as well as his body and fight through blockers is Kenneth Murray. Also, for everyone pointing out his size and weight etc. size and weight doesn‚Äôt equate to a physical player. To me simmons at best will be a Keenan Robinson. My guess is Simmons will fall on draft day and everyone on this board will be shocked.
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