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Williams, Cleveland Plain Dealer on Isaiah Simmons

Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 9:36 am
Quote:

“Isaiah Simmons, 6-4, 230 pounds, Clemson, junior

When discussing Clemson’s do-it-all defender, it is important to first understand how he was deployed by the Tigers this season.

Check these numbers out:

* Of his 822 snaps this season, Simmons lined up in the box as a traditional linebacker 299 times (36 percent), according to Pro Football Focus.

* He served as Clemson’s deep free safety 132 times (16 percent), and as a defensive end or edge rusher on 116 snaps (14 percent).

* Most impressively, Simmons lined up in the slot as a souped-up nickel corner 262 times (32 percent), proving more than capable of defending the nation’s best tight ends and slot receivers in space.

As the numbers show, Simmons can play anywhere. Which is why defining him as a linebacker or safety is pointless.

Pro Football Focus gave Simmons a 92 coverage grade this season, meaning he locked up the nation’s best tight ends and slot receivers. He scored 85 overall or higher in pass rushing, run defense and tackling. Simply, he doesn’t have a weakness.

There isn’t much to dislike. As a safety, he is the best in his class. The same can be said as a linebacker. At his size, he projects as an every-down player who can do it all.

Usually, Simmons spent his Saturday afternoons overpowering blockers and proving too fast and too big for ball carriers to juke him. Simmons is as much a “can’t miss” prospect as there is in this class.”



Sy?


Link - ( New Window )
He's exactly what our slow  
Metnut : 2/13/2020 9:42 am : link
defense needs. We've been abused over the middle, by screens, and by TEs for a while. Adding an elite rangy player is the type of weapon our coaching staff could really unleash. We already have the bulk in front to utilize him.

No reason why we can't have either Simmons, Young or a trade-down in this draft.
If he is gonna be anything like Deion Jones  
Chris684 : 2/13/2020 9:45 am : link
at the next level.

Bring him in.
What is very exciting about those numbers  
Jay on the Island : 2/13/2020 9:46 am : link
he lined up as an edge rusher just on 14% of the snaps yet he still recorded 7 sacks.
A versatile player like this  
Oscar : 2/13/2020 9:49 am : link
With a coach like Judge who is going to adjust his scheme to fit the opponent/situation, seems like a match made in heaven.
sounds like a faster Polamalu  
giants#1 : 2/13/2020 9:49 am : link
likely not as physical, but a hybrid LB/S that you need to account for on every play. I've seen lots of comparisons here to Peppers/Collins, but he's been far better in coverage than those two and arguably better moving forward as a pass rusher.
He's the piece  
GoDeep13 : 2/13/2020 9:50 am : link
That makes Graham's system and philosophy work. He is the definition of "Multiple". He can do literally anything you could ask a defender to do on the football field.
Those stats are very impressive.  
DonnieD89 : 2/13/2020 9:51 am : link
I’ve heard the argument that Simmons is a similar player to Peppers, being utilize the same way. My question to everyone is can both Peppers and Simmons play on the same field together. Would that be an advantage?
RE: Those stats are very impressive.  
giants#1 : 2/13/2020 9:56 am : link
In comment 14810269 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
I’ve heard the argument that Simmons is a similar player to Peppers, being utilize the same way. My question to everyone is can both Peppers and Simmons play on the same field together. Would that be an advantage?


I'm not a CFB expert, but if Simmons can competently play (some) FS as a true centerfielder then I don't see why not. Can also probably play in the big nickel together with Love playing FS.
I'm Warming To Simmons At 4th Overall  
Trainmaster : 2/13/2020 9:56 am : link
if no trade down is offered. I know I'm in the minority, but in the admittedly limited number of games I've watched for each of them, I like Simmons over Young.
If he’s in fact the real and versatile goods,  
Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 9:59 am : link
it would seem to me that he ought to be a slam dunk at 4, imv
I love Simmons, but he does have a weakness. When you put him on  
Ira : 2/13/2020 10:01 am : link
inside lb, he'll be blocked out of the play by an offensive lineman. But because of his versatility, you can put him in the slot or at safety on short yardage plays.
At no.4 I want a potential All-Pro  
90.Cal : 2/13/2020 10:03 am : link
LB, Edge, corner or safety... not a guy who is just kind of good at all 4 of those spots.

So can he just play all 4 spots or can he play all 4 spots at potentially an all pro level? If he can then picking him would be a no-brainer. I loved watching Simmons the past 2 years but projecting him to the next level has been challenging, for me at least.

I'd still take the top OL in the draft at 4 or trade back, getting an extra pick and still getting one of Lamb or Jeudy if that's even possible.
Simmons in coverage was  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:05 am : link
astounding. Simmons at the LOS not so much.

For 230 lbs he can move - fast and agile.

If Graham can place him where the big OL cannot get to him he would be just what they need. A fast LB that can cover anywhere and attack the QB from anywhere, remarkably so.

Is he the same style player as Peppers? IDK. He is bigger and taller. If he can truly play FS in the NFL, then he'd be a great foil with Peppers.
I said it last month  
AdamBrag : 2/13/2020 10:06 am : link
and I doubt I change my mind before the draft, I strongly think this is who the Giants will draft.
His versatility has been mentioned numerous times  
Biteymax22 : 2/13/2020 10:08 am : link
But the reality is one question needs to be answered, can he do those things at the NFL level?

Is he stout enough to play inside in the NFL?

Is he rangy enough to play single high?

Is he quick enough to play in the slot?

Will he be able to effectively pass rush? Remember prior to 2019 he had 2.5 career sacks, and only one of his 2019 sacks came against a ranked opponent.


While I'd love an impact linebacker in the worst ways, I think there are some questions about Simmons that are going to pop up closer to the draft. He'll still be a top 10 pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes closer to 10 than 4.
Sorry, but  
Jan in DC : 2/13/2020 10:11 am : link
please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.
I've seen the criticism  
Dr. D : 2/13/2020 10:13 am : link
that he's only 230 lbs. But he's also only 21 yrs old.

He's listed as 6'4". Is it not possible, I would say likely, for him to add some bulk with NFL training (without losing too much speed)?
I like him as well  
UConn4523 : 2/13/2020 10:16 am : link
and i'm confident that a creative coaching staff can use him to confuse offenses - we haven't had a guy with his ability in forever.

I realize his shortcomings and maybe 4 will be a bit too high. But you can work on his faults, you can't teach what he already has.
RE: Sorry, but  
barens : 2/13/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 14810291 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.


Texas A&M and South Carolina...not top of the line teams, but 2 SEC teams, in addition to their ACC schedule.
I AM NOT comparing him to LT  
Dr. D : 2/13/2020 10:20 am : link
but just as far as playing weight/height: LT was listed as 6'3" 238 lbs.

I really don't know, but would it be inconceivable for Simmons to put on 5-8 lbs of muscle on his 6'4" frame (without losing too much speed)?

RE: What is very exciting about those numbers  
allstarjim : 2/13/2020 10:22 am : link
In comment 14810260 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
he lined up as an edge rusher just on 14% of the snaps yet he still recorded 7 sacks.


I looked at all his sacks this year. IIRC, all but one he came in unblocked. There was one sack he bent the edge well. I wanted to see more of that.
RE: RE: Sorry, but  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:25 am : link
In comment 14810298 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 14810291 Jan in DC said:


Quote:


please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.



Texas A&M and South Carolina...not top of the line teams, but 2 SEC teams, in addition to their ACC schedule.


And he looked very good vs LSU
Great college stats...  
Tark10 : 2/13/2020 10:25 am : link
What happens when he is playing in the NFL? "Superman" may be mortal...
His scouting reports sounds  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 10:27 am : link
a lot like Jabrill Peppers.

If Simmons returned punts - it would sound exactly like Peppers.
I don't get the Collins/Peppers comps  
giants#1 : 2/13/2020 10:30 am : link
They are in-the-box safeties because they are strong against the run, but are mediocre (at best) in coverage. Covering TEs, and even slot WRs, sounds like a strength of Simmons who also happens to excel coming off the edge. Sounds more like a bigger Honey Badger than Peppers.
RE: Great college stats...  
UConn4523 : 2/13/2020 10:32 am : link
In comment 14810308 Tark10 said:
Quote:
What happens when he is playing in the NFL? "Superman" may be mortal...


Can't you say that about anyone? When he enters the NFL he will have to continue to get better, just like any other college player...
Graham and Flores wanted minkah Fitzpatrick to play all over the place  
Platos : 2/13/2020 10:33 am : link
and he wanted a trade in only his second year.

maybe Simmons won't care what his actual title is. he's definitely talented. does he show instincts?
RE: His scouting reports sounds  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:33 am : link
In comment 14810309 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
a lot like Jabrill Peppers.

If Simmons returned punts - it would sound exactly like Peppers.


Nor does he play RB, as Peppers could.

While the skill set sounds the same, they are totally different. I would say Peppers is a safety that can play at the LoS. Simmons is a Safety/LB hybrid that can play LB and he is much bigger and because of his size covers TEs better.
RE: RE: Great college stats...  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:35 am : link
In comment 14810314 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810308 Tark10 said:


Quote:


What happens when he is playing in the NFL? "Superman" may be mortal...



Can't you say that about anyone? When he enters the NFL he will have to continue to get better, just like any other college player...


Of course, this is true, just like many CFB players are underrated and overlooked and become stars...
He's the guy I want  
Eman11 : 2/13/2020 10:38 am : link
Maybe with a little luck the Giants can even trade back a spot or two to a QB needing team, pick up whatever picks they can and still grab him at 5-7.

If not, I'd still want him at 4.
Metnut  
Buzzard64 : 2/13/2020 10:49 am : link
"We have been abused over the middle by screens and tight ends for a while." That is a huge understatement. We have been abused over the middle by screens and tight ends for DECADES. If Simmons can be the solution to stopping this deficiency then draft him, it would immediately improve our Defense by leaps and bounds.
RE: Metnut  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:59 am : link
In comment 14810344 Buzzard64 said:
Quote:
"We have been abused over the middle by screens and tight ends for a while." That is a huge understatement. We have been abused over the middle by screens and tight ends for DECADES. If Simmons can be the solution to stopping this deficiency then draft him, it would immediately improve our Defense by leaps and bounds.


This^^^
Nice to get off the field on defense on 3rd and longs.
I dont think he will be that dominant at the next level  
Rudy5757 : 2/13/2020 11:00 am : link
One of his weaknesses is engaging blockers and I think he is a liability against the run. He doesnt seem to have the killer instinct either imo. I think people fall in love with his numbers but he seems to get lost a lot of games and his plays come in spurts. He doesn't get through traffic as well as you would like. I see him as a good player in the NFL but not a great player. I would be happier with him after 15 not at 4.
I don't get the comparisons to Jabril Peppers  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2020 11:03 am : link
Peppers was touted as a Safety, who could explode through the gaps with speed and not get touched, a running back and a returner. His scouting reports said he was not good in coverage. He was a three tool college player and he is 6'1"

Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers

I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.

Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick

Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood

JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge
I willing admit that I'm not  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 11:10 am : link
a college football guy - I don't have the time to watch a lot of college football (I'm usually at a baseball/soccer field watching my own kids play).

The commonality between Peppers and Simmons to the lazy college scout like myself is the versatility piece to his game.

BTW - I'm not saying it as a knock him. I happen to think that Peppers is a good player and I think he was better than, oh I don't know, Landon Collins when it came to covering TEs.

RE: I don't get the comparisons to Jabril Peppers  
section125 : 2/13/2020 11:11 am : link
In comment 14810360 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Peppers was touted as a Safety, who could explode through the gaps with speed and not get touched, a running back and a returner. His scouting reports said he was not good in coverage. He was a three tool college player and he is 6'1"

Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers

I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.

Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick

Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood

JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge


FWIW, I agree on the Peppers comparisons - physically different players.
His only draw back is his narrow build. I don't think he can carry much more weight, he is built like a very tall safety. I don't think he'd do well inside on 1st and 2nd downs, but would be perfect on 3rd and medium to long.
I will admit however...  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 11:12 am : link
that I do have concerns about guys that come out of college as jack of all trades, master of none type players.
I expected Simmons to be a polarizing prospect...  
Torrag : 2/13/2020 11:16 am : link
because he is unusual and he was deployed in unusual ways on gameday. It's difficult to find a comp for him in the league. Polomalu is a pretty good one. He covered, played in the box and blitzed well. Cam Chancelor is another good one. But these types of guys aren't widespread because there combination of physical tools don't manifest in one player very often. It's a rare skillset.

It's a skillset that comes with an extremely high upside. All Pro upside. It's not one without risk though. Why? Because it will take an innovative coaching staff to assess week to week and game to game how to deploy him vs the next opponent to maximize his potential.

You can't line him up as a LB in the box and press play. He ISN'T a traditional LB. He played much less than 50% of his career snaps at the position. He doesn't thrive taking on the blocks of Guards and Centers in space. He's a 'MOVE' defender and if you don't use him that way you're going to be disappointed in the result.

I happen to think we have the right staff and philosophy to exploit his potential or I wouldn't advocate taking him #4. IF we stay there and Young doesn't miraculously fall to us(which he won't) Simmons would be my pick. I'd have some butterflies and a strange combination of excitement and worry going on in my head but I'd do it. The payoff could be tremendous. He makes impact plays at a startling rate.
I do really like  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 11:17 am : link
reading about people who do know college football and what they think about players and how they will project to the NFL, so thank you for your insight.

I do love the NFL draft.

I find it to be fascinating.

As someone who watched as much tape on Simmons as possible  
GoDeep13 : 2/13/2020 11:35 am : link
I think people really don't get it. He's far more than a "3 down linebacker". To put it this way.

If he played strictly Safety. He'd be the top Safety in this class.

He's currently the top LB listed in this class.

He might be the best slot defender I've covered in this draft.

This guy can line up 15 yards from the line of scrimmage and make a tackle on a running back for a loss. His closing speed is ridiculous. For a league that has Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and other QBS that can be threats running the ball. Simmons is a special prospect.
I don't know.  
Klaatu : 2/13/2020 11:37 am : link
As I've said before, I haven't seen enough of Simmons to form an educated opinion, however, two things come to mind:

First, okay, PFF loves him. But PFF loved Leonard Floyd pre-draft, too. Now, not so much.

JonC doesn't like him much, at least not at #4, and his judgement is usually sound. I'll wait and see if his opinion has changed. Ditto for Sy'56, whom I believe was not very high on Simmons, either, so we'll see about that, too.

It's no secret I'm all about an OT at #4, however, for the past two years I've wanted the Giants to draft a bona fide defensive difference-maker in the 1st round, preferably a disruptive pass-rusher. If the Giants feel Simmons can be that guy, so be it.
'He's currently the top LB listed in this class.'  
Torrag : 2/13/2020 11:39 am : link
He's not. He has power issues inside and slips blocks far too often rather than taking them on. He played well under 50% of his snaps as a Lb in his college career.

He's a multi position guy that needs to play in space as a move defender the majority of his snaps.
RE: I don't know.  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 11:46 am : link
In comment 14810408 Klaatu said:
Quote:
As I've said before, I haven't seen enough of Simmons to form an educated opinion, however, two things come to mind:

First, okay, PFF loves him. But PFF loved Leonard Floyd pre-draft, too. Now, not so much.

JonC doesn't like him much, at least not at #4, and his judgement is usually sound. I'll wait and see if his opinion has changed. Ditto for Sy'56, whom I believe was not very high on Simmons, either, so we'll see about that, too.

It's no secret I'm all about an OT at #4, however, for the past two years I've wanted the Giants to draft a bona fide defensive difference-maker in the 1st round, preferably a disruptive pass-rusher. If the Giants feel Simmons can be that guy, so be it.


I'm with you on the OT idea - but again - as a lazy scout, it seems like all the OT guys at the top of the class Wirfs/Thomas/Willis/Becton all kind of have warts. Are any of them worth pick #4...probably a topic for a different thread...but you guys know a lot more than I do...clearly.

I did miss Sy's bowl game previews - I did get a better idea of who was who thanks to those.
RE: 'He's currently the top LB listed in this class.'  
GoDeep13 : 2/13/2020 11:46 am : link
In comment 14810410 Torrag said:
Quote:
He's not. He has power issues inside and slips blocks far too often rather than taking them on. He played well under 50% of his snaps as a Lb in his college career.

He's a multi position guy that needs to play in space as a move defender the majority of his snaps.


Bucky Brooks has him listed as the top LB in the draft.

Also thats what people said about Roquan Smith and Deion Jones. Slip blocks others take on. not about what they do but how well they do it. Darius Leonard slips blocks all day. one of the best Will backers in the league.
RE: I've seen the criticism  
Toth029 : 2/13/2020 11:47 am : link
In comment 14810296 Dr. D said:
Quote:
that he's only 230 lbs. But he's also only 21 yrs old.

He's listed as 6'4". Is it not possible, I would say likely, for him to add some bulk with NFL training (without losing too much speed)?

Urlacher added 20 lbs. or so going into the Combine.

He doesn't need to be the ILB #1. They'll run a lot of nickel and hybrid defenses anyway. Lawrence, Tomlinson and (potentially) Williams are boulders up front. Keep someone like Simmons clean and he could be a big factor.

How is his tackling? Coverage is nice but covering college receivers is different than the pros (obviously).
RE: As someone who watched as much tape on Simmons as possible  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 11:49 am : link
In comment 14810403 GoDeep13 said:
Quote:
I think people really don't get it. He's far more than a "3 down linebacker". To put it this way.

If he played strictly Safety. He'd be the top Safety in this class.

He's currently the top LB listed in this class.

He might be the best slot defender I've covered in this draft.

This guy can line up 15 yards from the line of scrimmage and make a tackle on a running back for a loss. His closing speed is ridiculous. For a league that has Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and other QBS that can be threats running the ball. Simmons is a special prospect.


Man - it's hard to fathom a 6'4' 230 pd slot corner succeeding in the NFL. Either the guy is a special talent, or the slot WRs in the ACC weren't very good.
'Bucky Brooks has him listed as the top LB in the draft.'  
Torrag : 2/13/2020 11:54 am : link
Maybe bucky is struggling with categorizing him as many do and took a shot and missed. When you play well under 50% of your snaps at a position you aren't that thing. You're a new thing. He lined up 48% of the time as a DB of some type. Either high safety or nickel CB.

I really want Simmons  
SteelGiant : 2/13/2020 12:19 pm : link
I can't believe how many of you are down on him. I would take at 4 for sure, in perfect world I would love you trade down to 5 and get an extra first so we can get a OL then too.

In today's NFL you need a modern day inside LB and I do believe that Simmons could turn into an All-Pro at that position.

Look around the league at today's weapons, QB are becoming more mobile and getting rid of the ball quicker. Team are running TEs and WR slanting through middle of the field all the time.

Simmons is exactly the kind of Athlete you need in the middle and they are even harder to find than pure pass rushers. If you want to win in this league you need to be able to cover the pass catching TE, spy on mobile QBs, and disguise the middle of the field.

Simmons has the potential to do all those things for us. You want to be able to disguise your pass rushers and you can't do that if you don't have LBs who can cover. I think we desperately need a guy like this.
RE: Sorry, but  
ZogZerg : 2/13/2020 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14810291 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.


Agree with this.
ACC was garbage this year.
RE: I really want Simmons  
DonnieD89 : 2/13/2020 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14810451 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
I can't believe how many of you are down on him. I would take at 4 for sure, in perfect world I would love you trade down to 5 and get an extra first so we can get a OL then too.

In today's NFL you need a modern day inside LB and I do believe that Simmons could turn into an All-Pro at that position.

Look around the league at today's weapons, QB are becoming more mobile and getting rid of the ball quicker. Team are running TEs and WR slanting through middle of the field all the time.

Simmons is exactly the kind of Athlete you need in the middle and they are even harder to find than pure pass rushers. If you want to win in this league you need to be able to cover the pass catching TE, spy on mobile QBs, and disguise the middle of the field.

Simmons has the potential to do all those things for us. You want to be able to disguise your pass rushers and you can't do that if you don't have LBs who can cover. I think we desperately need a guy like this.


Your argument has very valid points. I think it is just a matter of how the Giants staff projects him onto the field at the pro level. Are they going to be able to utilize him this way and is he going to be a fit their schemes all 3 downs? The other question is how high do they have him ranked compared to other draftees, compared to Okudah, Wills, or even Thomas? There is tremendous unclarity at #4.
RE: I don't get the comparisons to Jabril Peppers  
Thegratefulhead : 2/13/2020 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14810360 gidiefor said:
Quote:
Peppers was touted as a Safety, who could explode through the gaps with speed and not get touched, a running back and a returner. His scouting reports said he was not good in coverage. He was a three tool college player and he is 6'1"

Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers

I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.

Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick

Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood

JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge
I think JonC would say Simmons doesn't have enough dog in him. I agree with JonC.
Combine  
Professor Falken : 2/13/2020 12:41 pm : link
should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.
RE: His versatility has been mentioned numerous times  
cactus : 2/13/2020 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14810287 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
But the reality is one question needs to be answered, can he do those things at the NFL level?

Is he stout enough to play inside in the NFL?

Is he rangy enough to play single high?

Is he quick enough to play in the slot?

Will he be able to effectively pass rush? Remember prior to 2019 he had 2.5 career sacks, and only one of his 2019 sacks came against a ranked opponent.


While I'd love an impact linebacker in the worst ways, I think there are some questions about Simmons that are going to pop up closer to the draft. He'll still be a top 10 pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes closer to 10 than 4.


You don't want to draft a jack of all trades master of none player that high. Only if they have a position for him that they think he can be a star at do I think he should go at #4.
RE: Combine  
Biteymax22 : 2/13/2020 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.


Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.
You watch him on highlights and he looks great  
Rudy5757 : 2/13/2020 12:59 pm : link
as do most. then you watch a full game and there are a lot of points he doesnt show on tape even though you are looking for him. Hard to explain but i keep getting the sense that he will always be that guy that leaves you saying why can't he do that more often? At 4 I want someone that is on tape the whole game. Even if he is not making plays you see his presence. I dont get that with Simmons.
RE: RE: Sorry, but  
section125 : 2/13/2020 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14810463 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
In comment 14810291 Jan in DC said:


Quote:


please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.



Agree with this.
ACC was garbage this year.


Yes down year for top ACC teams. However, look at the NCAA Champ game. He looked good and fast in that game.

You can only play the team in front of you.
RE: RE: Combine  
Professor Falken : 2/13/2020 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14810500 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said:


Quote:


should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.



Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.


Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.

I dont understand the size complaints  
SteelGiant : 2/13/2020 1:23 pm : link
Steelers know how important the spot it. They drafted Ryan Shazier ht 6'1" 230, their defense improved once they had him. Then that awful injury occurred and the Steelers defense suffered again. So they traded up to get Devin Bush because these types of athletes do not grow on trees. Devin was 5'11" 23lbs. Boom, defense got better again - this is not a coincidence. The size argument is just wrong. Oh Luke Kuechly 6'3" 242.

Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage.

The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.

RE: I dont understand the size complaints  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14810532 SteelGiant said:
Quote:
Steelers know how important the spot it. They drafted Ryan Shazier ht 6'1" 230, their defense improved once they had him. Then that awful injury occurred and the Steelers defense suffered again. So they traded up to get Devin Bush because these types of athletes do not grow on trees. Devin was 5'11" 23lbs. Boom, defense got better again - this is not a coincidence. The size argument is just wrong. Oh Luke Kuechly 6'3" 242.

Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage.

The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.


I hope he's smart.
It sounds like many of you want him as a key part of the defense to:

1.) match up against TE 1-on-1
2.) shed blockers and be stout in the middle on 1st and 2nd down
3.) rush the passer on the edge
4.) cover the slot
5.) possibly play in the box as a safety

That's asking a lot of a player on any down and distance situation.
He seems like a good fit for Judge's new system of moving players  
Ira : 2/13/2020 1:46 pm : link
around according to their strengths and opponents weaknesses. He could use more power to play off blocks, but you can add muscle. You can't add the speed and quickness that are naturally his.
Gettleman seems to like...  
bw in dc : 2/13/2020 1:56 pm : link
big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far.

So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.

I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.
Is all that versatility really impotant in the NFL  
BillT : 2/13/2020 2:32 pm : link
To be drafted at #4 he has to be pro bowl/all pro level at at least one of those positions. Is he? Being very good at all those isn't good enough. In the NFL he's likely to play one position 90% of the time. What position is that?
RE: Gettleman seems to like...  
Dnew15 : 2/13/2020 2:39 pm : link
In comment 14810559 bw in dc said:
Quote:
big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far.

So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.

I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.


I also feel similarly about the OT class.
RE: Gettleman seems to like...  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 2:49 pm : link
In comment 14810559 bw in dc said:
Quote:
big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far.

So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.

I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.


Gettleman drafted Shaq Thompson who played safety and running back in college and that pick worked out pretty well. Needless to say, I think Isaiah Simmons is in our line of fire and they are definitely doing their homework.
RE: RE: RE: Combine  
Biteymax22 : 2/13/2020 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14810531 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
In comment 14810500 Biteymax22 said:


Quote:


In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said:


Quote:


should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.



Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.



Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.
Will be interesting, he looks like a basketball player in that pic.
RE: I dont think he will be that dominant at the next level  
Eman11 : 2/13/2020 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14810353 Rudy5757 said:
Quote:
One of his weaknesses is engaging blockers and I think he is a liability against the run. He doesnt seem to have the killer instinct either imo. I think people fall in love with his numbers but he seems to get lost a lot of games and his plays come in spurts. He doesn't get through traffic as well as you would like. I see him as a good player in the NFL but not a great player. I would be happier with him after 15 not at 4.


To quote our coach, don't tell me what he doesn't do well, tell me what he does do well.

I have no doubt if he's our pick our coaches will play to his strengths and one of them happens to be one of our D's biggest weakness and that's covering TE's. Throw in his overall versatility and they'll be finding ways to use everything he excels at.
another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2020 3:49 pm : link
from what I can see he comes on fast, hits hard and low, and takes players off their feet -

those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play --

His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three --

If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space.

Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense
RE: Those stats are very impressive.  
LauderdaleMatty : 2/13/2020 3:55 pm : link
In comment 14810269 DonnieD89 said:
Quote:
I’ve heard the argument that Simmons is a similar player to Peppers, being utilize the same way. My question to everyone is can both Peppers and Simmons play on the same field together. Would that be an advantage?


Peppers is at best average in coverage. I’d suggest below average. He’s not nor was he ever sen close to the production Simmons had. The Mich fans here go w the silly lie he was moved to LB due to lack of depth there at Mich. if he just was t good enough to cover. He was supposed to be CB. Then S. Then LB.

Sure kids move like that when they put on size. He’s not even a big FS. He’s also not all that tall. I get that some People say they think Simmons is over rated or shouldn’t be the pick at 4 but Peppers is pretty much like Manti Te’o. A 5 star HS kid who people wanted to be that good in the NFL.

If the Giants are in locc CD e w Simmons skill set Peppers on the roster means nothing. He had some flashes but last year but no reason to pass on Simmons who is about 1000 times better in coverage period
RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 4:00 pm : link
In comment 14810659 gidiefor said:
Quote:
from what I can see he comes on fast, hits hard and low, and takes players off their feet -

those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play --

His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three --

If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space.

Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense


No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.
RE: RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2020 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14810673 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:

No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.


Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor
RE: RE: RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14810681 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14810673 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:



No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.



Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor


If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara
A few years back  
ghost718 : 2/13/2020 4:27 pm : link
Giants were supposedly interested in a similar player,name was Zach Cunningham.Remember Jerry kept passing on him.He went late 2nd round.

I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy
RE: RE: RE: RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
gidiefor : Mod : 2/13/2020 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:

If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara


There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
Big Blue '56 : 2/13/2020 5:07 pm : link
In comment 14810717 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:



If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara



There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play


Of course, that’s a given. But how does anyone judge the “it” factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the “it,” or the “heart” of a prospective pro
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: another mis-conception is Simmons and contact  
Ira : 2/13/2020 5:27 pm : link
In comment 14810727 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810717 gidiefor said:


Quote:


In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:



If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara



There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play



Of course, that’s a given. But how does anyone judge the “it” factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the “it,” or the “heart” of a prospective pro


That's completely true, but that's what you have to do when deciding to draft a player - particularly in that early spot.
RE: A few years back  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14810698 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Giants were supposedly interested in a similar player,name was Zach Cunningham.Remember Jerry kept passing on him.He went late 2nd round.

I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy


Zach Cunningham is an absolute beast for Houston, please use a different example
And Zach Cunningham  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 5:31 pm : link
Was an absolute tackling machine, with bad feet in coverage, I don’t if there are any similarities besides their wingspan.
Not enough dog  
JonC : 2/13/2020 6:21 pm : link
and not enough OLB to be a difference maker in the NFL to the extent I want from a #4 overall pick and LB. He's a Safety, or he's another Leonard Floyd. Not impressed, we should expect a smarter use of a high draft pick.
or he's another Leonard Floyd  
Torrag : 2/13/2020 6:49 pm : link
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?
I suggest another similar ball player,Kenneth Murray Oklahoma  
lcrim : 2/13/2020 6:53 pm : link
I don't particularly agree that the 4th pick's need for value is met w/ by any OT.
As I've stated elsewhere here, we do need a defensive play-maker and another name thatcould be viewed @ 4th is Murray.
Larry
RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
uther99 : 2/13/2020 7:45 pm : link
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.


Simmons played in the JV league
RE: RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 7:57 pm : link
In comment 14810826 uther99 said:
Quote:
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:


Quote:


Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.



Simmons played in the JV league
He made both J.K Dobbins and Clyde Edwards Helaire look slow, with game changing tackles. That is not JV, that is two future NFL starting rb’s.
bw in dc  
BigBlueCane : 2/13/2020 7:57 pm : link
Gettleman's opinion ain't likely to important with regards to Simmons. Rather the opinions of all the college coaches that coached against Simmons, some of whom are on Judge's staff will likely count more.

Anyone's dismissing Simmons based on comparisons to old-school LB's is foolish. He and Becton are the two most likely candidates for the Giants to draft at #4.
Seems like a perfect fit to me  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 8:07 pm : link
The 3-4 is designed to have one Thumper who takes on blocks, mostly the backside guard, and one ILB who is a free roamer, mainly free of block shedding responsibilities and is burdened with making sideline to sideline tackles. Why invest in all these dlineman that can eat double teams if we’re not going to invest in a LB that can thrive in space?? We are one of the few perfect situations for Simmons to flourish as an ILB
Going way back, but he sounds like he could be Brad Van Pelt  
Ivan15 : 2/13/2020 8:09 pm : link
The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set.

If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.
I don't like him at 4  
uther99 : 2/13/2020 8:13 pm : link
He will get run over in run game and needs a free run to blitz effectively. Doubt he can cover NFL slot WRs. I don't like tweeners, swiss army knife, unicorns, as he is called. they never pan out

If giants pick him, hope i am wrong
RE: Going way back, but he sounds like he could be Brad Van Pelt  
aGiantGuy : 2/13/2020 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14810849 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set.

If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.


If Simmons can handle covering a TE as a backside curl defender that would free Peppers up to play roll safety and rob in-breaking routes. Deandre Baker would no longer worry about if his man runs slants, posts or ins, and can sit on comeback and streaks. The zone coverage implications are tremendous and don’t get me started on how it would open up Peppers to be a monster blitzer off the edge in man coverage if Simmons can truly lock down te’s. Please start thinking outside the box
No to Simmons  
The_Boss : 2/13/2020 9:01 pm : link
Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. I’m more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. I’d probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.
RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
JonC : 2/13/2020 9:38 pm : link
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?


What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.
RE: No to Simmons  
RobCarpenter : 2/13/2020 9:39 pm : link
In comment 14810874 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. I’m more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. I’d probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.


Think I agree that Okudah should be the pick. Having a CB that can cover 1:1 can do wonders for the pass rush.
Zero Interest in Simmons  
WillVAB : 2/13/2020 9:47 pm : link
Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.
RE: RE: or he's another Leonard Floyd  
GFAN52 : 2/13/2020 9:50 pm : link
In comment 14810886 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14810800 Torrag said:


Quote:


Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?



What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.


JonC would you select Okudah at #4 if he's there?
Yes  
JonC : 2/13/2020 9:54 pm : link
but I would stack up my trade down options before making the pick. We're hurting for quality talent in the front seven and OL.
RE: Zero Interest in Simmons  
section125 : 2/13/2020 10:10 pm : link
In comment 14810888 WillVAB said:
Quote:
Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.


Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...
I guess Trevor Lawrence is not getting drafted high next year  
SteelGiant : 2/13/2020 10:48 pm : link
because he plays in a JV league.

The reasons some of you come up with to not like someone are so freaking foolish.

So it was his weight which I already gave examples of good cover linebackers his size. Then it the fact he plays in the ACC which produced the under sized can't play in the NFL Aaron Donald.

Seriously - If we do not draft him I will assume it is because the professional experts saw something they dont like or they saw something they love with someone else. I am a Giants fan and I will have to trust them to make the right decision like Daniel Jones. ACC by the way - another JV player

Anyway - I hope the opposite happens - I hope there are things our scouts see in him and think he will be awesome and it turns out they are right. That is my wish right now. He could be really special if he can produce in the NFL - plain and simple

There are no sure things and I am not a professional scout. I like what I see from the player I could be wrong, and scouts get things wrong all the time too. But his weight and what division of college football he played in are just silly reasons not to like a football player. The dude produced in college is worth a 1st round pick in the NFL - he deserves a little more credit than what some are giving him.

The whole I like him at 15 but not 4 is another argument that I never like. That is the Daniel Jones - I like him 17 and not at 6 crap. You get one 1st round pick in most cases - and you need to get it right regardless of what pick it is.

Like I said before I hope that Miami wants to trade up into our spot for a QB and we get an extra pick, that lets us take a chance with a possible dynamic player like Simmons and still have a chance to get an OT. I have not idea which OT is worth the 4th pick vs the other OTs but Im not a scout.

All things being equal -which they may not be- there a good group of Oline and WRs in this draft and not a lot LBs. I am ok with taking the risk vs reward with Simmons
'What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 1:12 am : link
This assumes facts not in evidence. Why does he have to be a 'front seven defender'? That wasn't his primary role in college. He played multiple positions and less than 40% were as a front seven defender.

I don't understand this urge to pigeonhole him to a position on the field he didn't even for play the majority of his snaps.
Remember Taylor mays anyone?  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 7:30 am : link
Guy could run like the wind in a straight line. Big hitter who played amazingly well in college. In the nfl you defend a totally different type of athlete. Couldn’t turn his hips and run and I see that same problem with simmons. In the NFL he will be off the ball even more. He gets killed in the run game. He’s a slot corner big nickel player who probably could not defend the elite nfl tight ends and slot wr in the nfl. Again, the athletes in college vs the pros is a big difference which people seem to forget. Lining up all over the place in college is a wonderful, rarely translates to the nfl. . He isn’t Devon white. He isn’t roquan smith. He isn’t an elite chase and hit linebacker like Kenneth Murray. Many of you have pointed out his defense of moss when they played LSU. Thaddeus moss will most likely go undrafted and not make the nfl.
There's no urge to pigeonhole him  
JonC : 2/14/2020 8:44 am : link
He just is what he is to my eye, which isn't what I consider a priority of skills to draft at #4 overall. I understand what his strengths were in college and that reinforces my point as to what he will be in the NFL.
"We're going to be multiple."  
LBH15 : 2/14/2020 8:49 am : link
Yours truly,

Coach Judge
I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
JonC : 2/14/2020 8:51 am : link
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.
....  
ryanmkeane : 2/14/2020 9:47 am : link
Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say “well he’s this” or “well he can’t play X” and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. I’d rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.
RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
section125 : 2/14/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14811000 JonC said:
Quote:
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.


Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?
RE: ....  
The_Boss : 2/14/2020 9:58 am : link
In comment 14811050 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say “well he’s this” or “well he can’t play X” and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. I’d rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.


You’re not taking a RT at 4. You’d be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, he’s your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isn’t that what you’re looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OT’s right now?
RE: RE: ....  
section125 : 2/14/2020 10:04 am : link
In comment 14811066 The_Boss said:
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In comment 14811050 ryanmkeane said:


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Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say “well he’s this” or “well he can’t play X” and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.

Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. I’d rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.



You’re not taking a RT at 4. You’d be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, he’s your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isn’t that what you’re looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OT’s right now?


Why not take a RT at #4 if he projects as all pro? Left side/right side does it really matter anymore? Teams often have two ERs or switch sides to give them a better chance to get to the QB. Yeah, the QB has a blindside, but with blitzes and stunts it isn't that big a difference like it once was.
You guys knocking him  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 10:33 am : link
For not being an elite block shedding talent I don’t think truly understand his growth over the past couple years. In high school he was a 200 m champ and long jump champ, breaking school records in both. Ran the 200 in 22.07. Darius Slayton ran it in 21.73. He was a high safety and receiver in high school.

He was recruited as a db by Clemson. His sophomore year he was told he would play closer to the line of scrimmage in a rover safety role and that was most likely the first time he was ever taught any kind of block shedding technique. If you want to let that impact your evaluation of him, I think you’re missing the Forest for the trees.

Block shedding at a high level comes from footwork, explosion, and want to. Not including arm length and all the other minor factors. I don’t know how much he wants it, but I know he has the other two. People who want a finished product at the college level aren’t going to like Simmons, that simple.
Time will tell on his actual NFL level of play  
JonC : 2/14/2020 10:49 am : link
but I don't see this enormous limitless upside his supporters see.
There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 11:45 am : link
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.
RE: There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 11:58 am : link
In comment 14811169 Torrag said:
Quote:
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.


How do you feel about his hips? He doesn’t necessarily travel low to the ground, but then I see the elite cod on the j.k. Dobbins tackle and I don’t really care. But I see him try to cover a slot corner and if it wasn’t for recovery speed and length, he’d definitely be burned.

I don’t expect nfl d coordinators to put him 1 on 1 on a slot receiver. Stiff hips haven’t hurt Jalen Ramsey much but I was interested if you saw the same on film
RE: There is literally only one thing he doesn't excel at...  
Big Blue '56 : 2/14/2020 11:59 am : link
In comment 14811169 Torrag said:
Quote:
stack and shedding blocks and he compensates for that by often getting there first. That's it. It's the one 'weakness' in his game. Has all the physical tools you could dream of. Tremendous length which he uses to his advantage. Is a physical and sure tackler and a great open field tackler. Coverage ability is elite.

Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.


This is what many of the scouts seem to be saying. No guarantees of course, but that’s predominantly what I’ve been reading.
I think the hips are ok but he's tall and that's part of it  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 12:07 pm : link
His acceleration, recovery speed and length allow him to get the job done. 20 pass defenses and 6 INT's are the proof in the pudding. He erases tight ends.

There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.

I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.
RE: RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14811060 section125 said:
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In comment 14811000 JonC said:


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a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.



Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?


Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray
Like I’ve told you guys before  
Tuckrule : 2/14/2020 12:20 pm : link
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick
RE: I think the hips are ok but he's tall and that's part of it  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14811186 Torrag said:
Quote:
His acceleration, recovery speed and length allow him to get the job done. 20 pass defenses and 6 INT's are the proof in the pudding. He erases tight ends.

There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.

I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.

Cool, I see a lot of Ryan Shazier in my projection of him, others say it’s not realistic but that’s what I see. He has that long femur length that makes it hard to get low but makes him so darn athletic and explosive, almost in the Lebron James mold. Can’t wait to see what happens in April
I know I am coming off as big Simmons supporters  
SteelGiant : 2/14/2020 12:27 pm : link
but honestly I don't mean to be one cause I am not a scout. The real difference I think we are having collectively is less about Simmons himself and more about what we think NFL looks like today.

I am in the group of fans that sees the NFL changing drastically right in front of me. Defense today is not the defense of 10 years ago. The reason our defense has sucked is because the Giants have not adjusted the personnel to fit today game and the game of the future.

In the box safeties are new linebackers. That is why you saw peppers playing that spot all the time last year and you say Landon Collins playing there before him.

If you take Peppers 5'11 215 or Collins 6'0" 218 and made them 6'4" 235 - that is a linebacker in today's NFL.

This conversation reminds me of the NHL 7 years ago. The Pittsburgh Penguins showed the league that Puck moving defencemen and speed was more effective moving forward than big body punishing guys that were slow. Now everyone is looking for fast players and teams that refused to change look like the LA Kings - they were great but did not change with the times.

Players like Simmons failed before in the past just like there were fast smaller defensemen in the NHL that did not make it back then either. But now, in today's game these types of players could be all the rage.

Today's NFL - Lamar, Mahomes, Foles, Rodgers, even the Giants got a more mobile QB then before. Then there is the Ertz, Kelce, Kittle's of the league. You need to be able to counter that.

So the question I have - Can Simmons do that? Can he cover the Mobile TE, can he spy on the mobile QB? If the answer is no - then he is not what we need, but if the answer is yes then this is a no brainer for today's NFL. Stop with the semantics of position name - lets call it Striker. If you want to counteract what offenses are doing today, you dont want your safety doing that anymore - they need to help cover the back end, you need a specialist for the middle of the field you is fast enough to get the outside.
RE: Like I’ve told you guys before  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick


First off, LOL.

You are comparing a dude who was a 7th rd pick with barely any production at the college level to a top 5 projected pick.

And not only that but Kearse ran a 4.6 40 and had a 31’ vert. Simmons has an 11’10 reach... that means he can jump and touch the top of the backboard... he will likely jump closer to 42’ and he ran a 4.31 at clemson’s spring combine. There is no comparison athletically, I’m not even gonna get into the football traits.
'Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 2:43 pm : link
Awful attempt at a comp for Simmons. Kearse isn't even a poor man's Simmons, he's a broke ass man's. Terrible post.
RE: Not enough dog  
BobsYourUncle : 2/14/2020 2:48 pm : link
In comment 14810781 JonC said:
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and not enough OLB to be a difference maker in the NFL to the extent I want from a #4 overall pick and LB. He's a Safety, or he's another Leonard Floyd. Not impressed, we should expect a smarter use of a high draft pick.


+1
RE: RE: Zero Interest in Simmons  
WillVAB : 2/14/2020 4:04 pm : link
In comment 14810895 section125 said:
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In comment 14810888 WillVAB said:


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Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.



Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...


So you have some magical scheme you can send to Judge so Simmons can run free all game long?

Simmons isn’t a physical player. Massive hole imv. He makes plays when he’s unblocked or trying to run around players. That won’t fly at the NFL level.

He’s prob best suited for a Simmons (Denver) type role (safety/slot corner) in the NFL but you don’t take that top 5.

At best he’s another niche player and the Giants don’t need another one of those.
RE: RE: RE: I'm building the front seven into a strength and  
WillVAB : 2/14/2020 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14811191 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
In comment 14811060 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14811000 JonC said:


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a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.



Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.

A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?



Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray


+1 on Murray. I think he’s the best LB in the class.
When Judge was hired  
BigBlueCane : 2/14/2020 4:22 pm : link
he emphasized a philosophy of building around what a player can do vs bemoaning what a player could not.

Simmons can do a helluva of a lot and what he cannot do is a much smaller and shorter list.

Again looking for unicorns means you miss out on a lot of good horses.
RE: Like I’ve told you guys before  
bw in dc : 2/14/2020 4:50 pm : link
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick


Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?

Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.

So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."
RE: RE: Like I’ve told you guys before  
aGiantGuy : 2/14/2020 5:12 pm : link
In comment 14811438 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14811192 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick



Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?

Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.

So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."


I think he means a different Kearse who played safety on Deshaun Watson’s Clemson team. The NFL hasn’t seen a player like Simmons in a long time, athletes with his build are usually playing basketball. You can not compare him to Taylor Mays because Mays played a majority of his snaps at cover 2 safety and still had less interceptions then Simmons. Justin Simmons ran a 4.6 at the combine and has crazy loose hips, again, not a solid comp at all.

And to answer the thought of a magical scheme, you don’t need a magical scheme, the regular 3-4 is designed to have free roam LB, that’s why the d lineman in front are 2 gapping so that the linebackers can run free. Betcher ran a 1-gap 50 front, which would not be a good fit for Simmons unless he played money backer.

I like Kenneth Murray but he misdiagnoses a lot of plays and gets caught in no mans land, his acceleration and movement through trash is elite though. I think they will both be good to great players in the NFL. My preference is Simmons but I like both for NYG. You just can’t coach length and pure speed.
'Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?'  
Torrag : 2/14/2020 6:19 pm : link
Jayron not Jevon. Completely different player and not who he was talking about.
RE: 'Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?'  
bw in dc : 2/14/2020 6:58 pm : link
In comment 14811476 Torrag said:
Quote:
Jayron not Jevon. Completely different player and not who he was talking about.


My bad. Thanks.

Need to start using my glasses when I try to read BBI off my phone... ;)
RE: 'Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is'  
Tuckrule : 2/18/2020 5:16 am : link
In comment 14811330 Torrag said:
Quote:
Awful attempt at a comp for Simmons. Kearse isn't even a poor man's Simmons, he's a broke ass man's. Terrible post.


You guys are missing the point. If the all world Clemson D coordinator saw similarities in those players you want him at 4. He’s a weak player. Look at his full game highlights. Look at bectons full game tape vs Clemson in that film Focus on Simmons everyone will change their mind after seeing that tape. The guy couldn’t stay on his feet in the run game. Kearse was smart enough to realize he can’t mix it up inside at linebacker. Simmons will be a safety in the nfl. He is not a linebacker. “Only weakness is shedding blocks” lmao. Only weakness. That’s half of fucking football is shedding locks if you plan to play anywhere near the los. Show me where you see blitz ability. His tackles for a loss are free rush lanes due to a hell of a talented defense. An impact linebacker who can shed blocks and use his hands as well as his body and fight through blockers is Kenneth Murray. Also, for everyone pointing out his size and weight etc. size and weight doesn’t equate to a physical player. To me simmons at best will be a Keenan Robinson. My guess is Simmons will fall on draft day and everyone on this board will be shocked.
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