|
|
Quote: |
Isaiah Simmons, 6-4, 230 pounds, Clemson, junior When discussing Clemsons do-it-all defender, it is important to first understand how he was deployed by the Tigers this season. Check these numbers out: * Of his 822 snaps this season, Simmons lined up in the box as a traditional linebacker 299 times (36 percent), according to Pro Football Focus. * He served as Clemsons deep free safety 132 times (16 percent), and as a defensive end or edge rusher on 116 snaps (14 percent). * Most impressively, Simmons lined up in the slot as a souped-up nickel corner 262 times (32 percent), proving more than capable of defending the nations best tight ends and slot receivers in space. As the numbers show, Simmons can play anywhere. Which is why defining him as a linebacker or safety is pointless. Pro Football Focus gave Simmons a 92 coverage grade this season, meaning he locked up the nations best tight ends and slot receivers. He scored 85 overall or higher in pass rushing, run defense and tackling. Simply, he doesnt have a weakness. There isnt much to dislike. As a safety, he is the best in his class. The same can be said as a linebacker. At his size, he projects as an every-down player who can do it all. Usually, Simmons spent his Saturday afternoons overpowering blockers and proving too fast and too big for ball carriers to juke him. Simmons is as much a cant miss prospect as there is in this class. |
No reason why we can't have either Simmons, Young or a trade-down in this draft.
Bring him in.
I'm not a CFB expert, but if Simmons can competently play (some) FS as a true centerfielder then I don't see why not. Can also probably play in the big nickel together with Love playing FS.
So can he just play all 4 spots or can he play all 4 spots at potentially an all pro level? If he can then picking him would be a no-brainer. I loved watching Simmons the past 2 years but projecting him to the next level has been challenging, for me at least.
I'd still take the top OL in the draft at 4 or trade back, getting an extra pick and still getting one of Lamb or Jeudy if that's even possible.
For 230 lbs he can move - fast and agile.
If Graham can place him where the big OL cannot get to him he would be just what they need. A fast LB that can cover anywhere and attack the QB from anywhere, remarkably so.
Is he the same style player as Peppers? IDK. He is bigger and taller. If he can truly play FS in the NFL, then he'd be a great foil with Peppers.
Is he stout enough to play inside in the NFL?
Is he rangy enough to play single high?
Is he quick enough to play in the slot?
Will he be able to effectively pass rush? Remember prior to 2019 he had 2.5 career sacks, and only one of his 2019 sacks came against a ranked opponent.
While I'd love an impact linebacker in the worst ways, I think there are some questions about Simmons that are going to pop up closer to the draft. He'll still be a top 10 pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes closer to 10 than 4.
He's listed as 6'4". Is it not possible, I would say likely, for him to add some bulk with NFL training (without losing too much speed)?
I realize his shortcomings and maybe 4 will be a bit too high. But you can work on his faults, you can't teach what he already has.
Texas A&M and South Carolina...not top of the line teams, but 2 SEC teams, in addition to their ACC schedule.
I really don't know, but would it be inconceivable for Simmons to put on 5-8 lbs of muscle on his 6'4" frame (without losing too much speed)?
I looked at all his sacks this year. IIRC, all but one he came in unblocked. There was one sack he bent the edge well. I wanted to see more of that.
Quote:
please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.
Texas A&M and South Carolina...not top of the line teams, but 2 SEC teams, in addition to their ACC schedule.
And he looked very good vs LSU
If Simmons returned punts - it would sound exactly like Peppers.
Can't you say that about anyone? When he enters the NFL he will have to continue to get better, just like any other college player...
maybe Simmons won't care what his actual title is. he's definitely talented. does he show instincts?
If Simmons returned punts - it would sound exactly like Peppers.
Nor does he play RB, as Peppers could.
While the skill set sounds the same, they are totally different. I would say Peppers is a safety that can play at the LoS. Simmons is a Safety/LB hybrid that can play LB and he is much bigger and because of his size covers TEs better.
Quote:
What happens when he is playing in the NFL? "Superman" may be mortal...
Can't you say that about anyone? When he enters the NFL he will have to continue to get better, just like any other college player...
Of course, this is true, just like many CFB players are underrated and overlooked and become stars...
If not, I'd still want him at 4.
This^^^
Nice to get off the field on defense on 3rd and longs.
Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers
I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.
Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick
Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood
JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge
The commonality between Peppers and Simmons to the lazy college scout like myself is the versatility piece to his game.
BTW - I'm not saying it as a knock him. I happen to think that Peppers is a good player and I think he was better than, oh I don't know, Landon Collins when it came to covering TEs.
Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers
I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.
Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick
Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood
JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge
FWIW, I agree on the Peppers comparisons - physically different players.
His only draw back is his narrow build. I don't think he can carry much more weight, he is built like a very tall safety. I don't think he'd do well inside on 1st and 2nd downs, but would be perfect on 3rd and medium to long.
It's a skillset that comes with an extremely high upside. All Pro upside. It's not one without risk though. Why? Because it will take an innovative coaching staff to assess week to week and game to game how to deploy him vs the next opponent to maximize his potential.
You can't line him up as a LB in the box and press play. He ISN'T a traditional LB. He played much less than 50% of his career snaps at the position. He doesn't thrive taking on the blocks of Guards and Centers in space. He's a 'MOVE' defender and if you don't use him that way you're going to be disappointed in the result.
I happen to think we have the right staff and philosophy to exploit his potential or I wouldn't advocate taking him #4. IF we stay there and Young doesn't miraculously fall to us(which he won't) Simmons would be my pick. I'd have some butterflies and a strange combination of excitement and worry going on in my head but I'd do it. The payoff could be tremendous. He makes impact plays at a startling rate.
I do love the NFL draft.
I find it to be fascinating.
If he played strictly Safety. He'd be the top Safety in this class.
He's currently the top LB listed in this class.
He might be the best slot defender I've covered in this draft.
This guy can line up 15 yards from the line of scrimmage and make a tackle on a running back for a loss. His closing speed is ridiculous. For a league that has Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and other QBS that can be threats running the ball. Simmons is a special prospect.
First, okay, PFF loves him. But PFF loved Leonard Floyd pre-draft, too. Now, not so much.
JonC doesn't like him much, at least not at #4, and his judgement is usually sound. I'll wait and see if his opinion has changed. Ditto for Sy'56, whom I believe was not very high on Simmons, either, so we'll see about that, too.
It's no secret I'm all about an OT at #4, however, for the past two years I've wanted the Giants to draft a bona fide defensive difference-maker in the 1st round, preferably a disruptive pass-rusher. If the Giants feel Simmons can be that guy, so be it.
He's a multi position guy that needs to play in space as a move defender the majority of his snaps.
First, okay, PFF loves him. But PFF loved Leonard Floyd pre-draft, too. Now, not so much.
JonC doesn't like him much, at least not at #4, and his judgement is usually sound. I'll wait and see if his opinion has changed. Ditto for Sy'56, whom I believe was not very high on Simmons, either, so we'll see about that, too.
It's no secret I'm all about an OT at #4, however, for the past two years I've wanted the Giants to draft a bona fide defensive difference-maker in the 1st round, preferably a disruptive pass-rusher. If the Giants feel Simmons can be that guy, so be it.
I'm with you on the OT idea - but again - as a lazy scout, it seems like all the OT guys at the top of the class Wirfs/Thomas/Willis/Becton all kind of have warts. Are any of them worth pick #4...probably a topic for a different thread...but you guys know a lot more than I do...clearly.
I did miss Sy's bowl game previews - I did get a better idea of who was who thanks to those.
He's a multi position guy that needs to play in space as a move defender the majority of his snaps.
Bucky Brooks has him listed as the top LB in the draft.
Also thats what people said about Roquan Smith and Deion Jones. Slip blocks others take on. not about what they do but how well they do it. Darius Leonard slips blocks all day. one of the best Will backers in the league.
He's listed as 6'4". Is it not possible, I would say likely, for him to add some bulk with NFL training (without losing too much speed)?
Urlacher added 20 lbs. or so going into the Combine.
He doesn't need to be the ILB #1. They'll run a lot of nickel and hybrid defenses anyway. Lawrence, Tomlinson and (potentially) Williams are boulders up front. Keep someone like Simmons clean and he could be a big factor.
How is his tackling? Coverage is nice but covering college receivers is different than the pros (obviously).
If he played strictly Safety. He'd be the top Safety in this class.
He's currently the top LB listed in this class.
He might be the best slot defender I've covered in this draft.
This guy can line up 15 yards from the line of scrimmage and make a tackle on a running back for a loss. His closing speed is ridiculous. For a league that has Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and other QBS that can be threats running the ball. Simmons is a special prospect.
Man - it's hard to fathom a 6'4' 230 pd slot corner succeeding in the NFL. Either the guy is a special talent, or the slot WRs in the ACC weren't very good.
In today's NFL you need a modern day inside LB and I do believe that Simmons could turn into an All-Pro at that position.
Look around the league at today's weapons, QB are becoming more mobile and getting rid of the ball quicker. Team are running TEs and WR slanting through middle of the field all the time.
Simmons is exactly the kind of Athlete you need in the middle and they are even harder to find than pure pass rushers. If you want to win in this league you need to be able to cover the pass catching TE, spy on mobile QBs, and disguise the middle of the field.
Simmons has the potential to do all those things for us. You want to be able to disguise your pass rushers and you can't do that if you don't have LBs who can cover. I think we desperately need a guy like this.
Agree with this.
ACC was garbage this year.
In today's NFL you need a modern day inside LB and I do believe that Simmons could turn into an All-Pro at that position.
Look around the league at today's weapons, QB are becoming more mobile and getting rid of the ball quicker. Team are running TEs and WR slanting through middle of the field all the time.
Simmons is exactly the kind of Athlete you need in the middle and they are even harder to find than pure pass rushers. If you want to win in this league you need to be able to cover the pass catching TE, spy on mobile QBs, and disguise the middle of the field.
Simmons has the potential to do all those things for us. You want to be able to disguise your pass rushers and you can't do that if you don't have LBs who can cover. I think we desperately need a guy like this.
Your argument has very valid points. I think it is just a matter of how the Giants staff projects him onto the field at the pro level. Are they going to be able to utilize him this way and is he going to be a fit their schemes all 3 downs? The other question is how high do they have him ranked compared to other draftees, compared to Okudah, Wills, or even Thomas? There is tremendous unclarity at #4.
Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers
I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much.
Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick
Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood
JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge
Is he stout enough to play inside in the NFL?
Is he rangy enough to play single high?
Is he quick enough to play in the slot?
Will he be able to effectively pass rush? Remember prior to 2019 he had 2.5 career sacks, and only one of his 2019 sacks came against a ranked opponent.
While I'd love an impact linebacker in the worst ways, I think there are some questions about Simmons that are going to pop up closer to the draft. He'll still be a top 10 pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes closer to 10 than 4.
You don't want to draft a jack of all trades master of none player that high. Only if they have a position for him that they think he can be a star at do I think he should go at #4.
Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.
Quote:
please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season.
Agree with this.
ACC was garbage this year.
Yes down year for top ACC teams. However, look at the NCAA Champ game. He looked good and fast in that game.
You can only play the team in front of you.
Quote:
should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.
Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.
Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.
Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage.
The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.
Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage.
The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.
I hope he's smart.
It sounds like many of you want him as a key part of the defense to:
1.) match up against TE 1-on-1
2.) shed blockers and be stout in the middle on 1st and 2nd down
3.) rush the passer on the edge
4.) cover the slot
5.) possibly play in the box as a safety
That's asking a lot of a player on any down and distance situation.
So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.
I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.
So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.
I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.
I also feel similarly about the OT class.
So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.
I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.
Gettleman drafted Shaq Thompson who played safety and running back in college and that pick worked out pretty well. Needless to say, I think Isaiah Simmons is in our line of fire and they are definitely doing their homework.
Quote:
In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said:
Quote:
should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.
Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.
Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.
To quote our coach, don't tell me what he doesn't do well, tell me what he does do well.
I have no doubt if he's our pick our coaches will play to his strengths and one of them happens to be one of our D's biggest weakness and that's covering TE's. Throw in his overall versatility and they'll be finding ways to use everything he excels at.
those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play --
His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three --
If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space.
Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense
Peppers is at best average in coverage. Id suggest below average. Hes not nor was he ever sen close to the production Simmons had. The Mich fans here go w the silly lie he was moved to LB due to lack of depth there at Mich. if he just was t good enough to cover. He was supposed to be CB. Then S. Then LB.
Sure kids move like that when they put on size. Hes not even a big FS. Hes also not all that tall. I get that some People say they think Simmons is over rated or shouldnt be the pick at 4 but Peppers is pretty much like Manti Teo. A 5 star HS kid who people wanted to be that good in the NFL.
If the Giants are in locc CD e w Simmons skill set Peppers on the roster means nothing. He had some flashes but last year but no reason to pass on Simmons who is about 1000 times better in coverage period
those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play --
His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three --
If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space.
Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense
No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please dont say, not at 4, as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.
No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please dont say, not at 4, as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.
Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor
Quote:
No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please dont say, not at 4, as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.
Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor
If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the it factor? No one can motor at 100% unless theyre Frank Ferrara
I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy
If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the it factor? No one can motor at 100% unless theyre Frank Ferrara
There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play
Quote:
If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the it factor? No one can motor at 100% unless theyre Frank Ferrara
There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play
Of course, thats a given. But how does anyone judge the it factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the it, or the heart of a prospective pro
Quote:
In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the it factor? No one can motor at 100% unless theyre Frank Ferrara
There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play
Of course, thats a given. But how does anyone judge the it factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the it, or the heart of a prospective pro
That's completely true, but that's what you have to do when deciding to draft a player - particularly in that early spot.
I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy
Zach Cunningham is an absolute beast for Houston, please use a different example
Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK
Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS
Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.
The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?
As I've stated elsewhere here, we do need a defensive play-maker and another name thatcould be viewed @ 4th is Murray.
Larry
Simmons played in the JV league
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.
Simmons played in the JV league
Anyone's dismissing Simmons based on comparisons to old-school LB's is foolish. He and Becton are the two most likely candidates for the Giants to draft at #4.
If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.
If giants pick him, hope i am wrong
If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.
If Simmons can handle covering a TE as a backside curl defender that would free Peppers up to play roll safety and rob in-breaking routes. Deandre Baker would no longer worry about if his man runs slants, posts or ins, and can sit on comeback and streaks. The zone coverage implications are tremendous and dont get me started on how it would open up Peppers to be a monster blitzer off the edge in man coverage if Simmons can truly lock down tes. Please start thinking outside the box
Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK
Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS
Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.
The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?
What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.
Think I agree that Okudah should be the pick. Having a CB that can cover 1:1 can do wonders for the pass rush.
Quote:
Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.
Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK
Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS
Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.
The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?
What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.
JonC would you select Okudah at #4 if he's there?
Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...
The reasons some of you come up with to not like someone are so freaking foolish.
So it was his weight which I already gave examples of good cover linebackers his size. Then it the fact he plays in the ACC which produced the under sized can't play in the NFL Aaron Donald.
Seriously - If we do not draft him I will assume it is because the professional experts saw something they dont like or they saw something they love with someone else. I am a Giants fan and I will have to trust them to make the right decision like Daniel Jones. ACC by the way - another JV player
Anyway - I hope the opposite happens - I hope there are things our scouts see in him and think he will be awesome and it turns out they are right. That is my wish right now. He could be really special if he can produce in the NFL - plain and simple
There are no sure things and I am not a professional scout. I like what I see from the player I could be wrong, and scouts get things wrong all the time too. But his weight and what division of college football he played in are just silly reasons not to like a football player. The dude produced in college is worth a 1st round pick in the NFL - he deserves a little more credit than what some are giving him.
The whole I like him at 15 but not 4 is another argument that I never like. That is the Daniel Jones - I like him 17 and not at 6 crap. You get one 1st round pick in most cases - and you need to get it right regardless of what pick it is.
Like I said before I hope that Miami wants to trade up into our spot for a QB and we get an extra pick, that lets us take a chance with a possible dynamic player like Simmons and still have a chance to get an OT. I have not idea which OT is worth the 4th pick vs the other OTs but Im not a scout.
All things being equal -which they may not be- there a good group of Oline and WRs in this draft and not a lot LBs. I am ok with taking the risk vs reward with Simmons
I don't understand this urge to pigeonhole him to a position on the field he didn't even for play the majority of his snaps.
Coach Judge
Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Id rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.
Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.
A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?
Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Id rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.
Youre not taking a RT at 4. Youd be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, hes your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isnt that what youre looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OTs right now?
Quote:
Regarding the argument as to whether Simmons is worth the pick at 4, I think we are severely undervaluing a few factors when it comes to draft picks. Work ethic, the actual person himself, coaching, and fit. We always try to pigeon hole the player and say well hes this or well he cant play X and then we see 3rd round and 4th round picks become pro bowl players.
Look, I get that Simmons may not be Lawrence Taylor. All I know is the kid is an utter freak of an athlete and seems to love the game, and is always around the ball. With good coaching, it seems this is the type of player where the the potential is just through the roof. Id rather take a chance on this guy becoming an all pro than taking a right tackle at 4.
Youre not taking a RT at 4. Youd be taking a guy who competes with Solder for LT, with the loser moving to RT. And, should that be the draft pick, hes your long term LT in 2021 when Solder is cut. That being said, Okudah has potential all pro cb written all over him. And, at 4, isnt that what youre looking for? A potential all pro player? Can we truly say that about Simmons? Or any of these OTs right now?
Why not take a RT at #4 if he projects as all pro? Left side/right side does it really matter anymore? Teams often have two ERs or switch sides to give them a better chance to get to the QB. Yeah, the QB has a blindside, but with blitzes and stunts it isn't that big a difference like it once was.
He was recruited as a db by Clemson. His sophomore year he was told he would play closer to the line of scrimmage in a rover safety role and that was most likely the first time he was ever taught any kind of block shedding technique. If you want to let that impact your evaluation of him, I think youre missing the Forest for the trees.
Block shedding at a high level comes from footwork, explosion, and want to. Not including arm length and all the other minor factors. I dont know how much he wants it, but I know he has the other two. People who want a finished product at the college level arent going to like Simmons, that simple.
Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.
Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.
How do you feel about his hips? He doesnt necessarily travel low to the ground, but then I see the elite cod on the j.k. Dobbins tackle and I dont really care. But I see him try to cover a slot corner and if it wasnt for recovery speed and length, hed definitely be burned.
I dont expect nfl d coordinators to put him 1 on 1 on a slot receiver. Stiff hips havent hurt Jalen Ramsey much but I was interested if you saw the same on film
Game changers come in many shapes and sizes. They don't have to be traditional in the box players. An All Pro at any position is a huge asset to any defense. A chip you can build around.
This is what many of the scouts seem to be saying. No guarantees of course, but thats predominantly what Ive been reading.
There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.
I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.
Quote:
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.
Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.
A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?
Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray
There are also any number of really good linebackers that don't go running face first into blockers. Deion Jones and Ryan Shazier come to mind. They win with speed and instincts.
I also think Simmons potential as a pass rusher is not being 'overlooked' but may be undersold. He really only added this facet to his game last season and he had a natural flair for it. I've always thought to an extent the good pass rushers are born not made.
Cool, I see a lot of Ryan Shazier in my projection of him, others say its not realistic but thats what I see. He has that long femur length that makes it hard to get low but makes him so darn athletic and explosive, almost in the Lebron James mold. Cant wait to see what happens in April
I am in the group of fans that sees the NFL changing drastically right in front of me. Defense today is not the defense of 10 years ago. The reason our defense has sucked is because the Giants have not adjusted the personnel to fit today game and the game of the future.
In the box safeties are new linebackers. That is why you saw peppers playing that spot all the time last year and you say Landon Collins playing there before him.
If you take Peppers 5'11 215 or Collins 6'0" 218 and made them 6'4" 235 - that is a linebacker in today's NFL.
This conversation reminds me of the NHL 7 years ago. The Pittsburgh Penguins showed the league that Puck moving defencemen and speed was more effective moving forward than big body punishing guys that were slow. Now everyone is looking for fast players and teams that refused to change look like the LA Kings - they were great but did not change with the times.
Players like Simmons failed before in the past just like there were fast smaller defensemen in the NHL that did not make it back then either. But now, in today's game these types of players could be all the rage.
Today's NFL - Lamar, Mahomes, Foles, Rodgers, even the Giants got a more mobile QB then before. Then there is the Ertz, Kelce, Kittle's of the league. You need to be able to counter that.
So the question I have - Can Simmons do that? Can he cover the Mobile TE, can he spy on the mobile QB? If the answer is no - then he is not what we need, but if the answer is yes then this is a no brainer for today's NFL. Stop with the semantics of position name - lets call it Striker. If you want to counteract what offenses are doing today, you dont want your safety doing that anymore - they need to help cover the back end, you need a specialist for the middle of the field you is fast enough to get the outside.
First off, LOL.
You are comparing a dude who was a 7th rd pick with barely any production at the college level to a top 5 projected pick.
And not only that but Kearse ran a 4.6 40 and had a 31 vert. Simmons has an 1110 reach... that means he can jump and touch the top of the backboard... he will likely jump closer to 42 and he ran a 4.31 at clemsons spring combine. There is no comparison athletically, Im not even gonna get into the football traits.
+1
Quote:
Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.
Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...
So you have some magical scheme you can send to Judge so Simmons can run free all game long?
Simmons isnt a physical player. Massive hole imv. He makes plays when hes unblocked or trying to run around players. That wont fly at the NFL level.
Hes prob best suited for a Simmons (Denver) type role (safety/slot corner) in the NFL but you dont take that top 5.
At best hes another niche player and the Giants dont need another one of those.
Quote:
In comment 14811000 JonC said:
Quote:
a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.
Backend run and chase safety hybrid? Don't agree that is what he is, but I see what you are saying.
A Jaylon Smith or Leighton Vander Esch tybe LB would be phenomenal. Is there one you see in this draft?
Yes even better. His name is Kenneth Murray
+1 on Murray. I think hes the best LB in the class.
Simmons can do a helluva of a lot and what he cannot do is a much smaller and shorter list.
Again looking for unicorns means you miss out on a lot of good horses.
Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?
Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.
So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."
Quote:
Jayron Kearse is a good example of what simmons is. Kearse was asked to do the same exact thing Simmons did but Kearse refuses to switch to that hybrid role. They are very similar. Kearse struggles in the nfl and is a situational player at best. The d coordinator at Clemson saw similarities between these guys. At 4 I would break my tv if Simmons is the pick
Where was Kearse asked to do these things? At Florida?
Kearse had double digit sacks his first three years in the NFL. And while he sack totals did tail off, he was still getting excellent pressure. But then he had a bad knee injury in 2006 that started the decline.
So I'm not sure what you mean by Kearse's "struggles in the NFL..."
I think he means a different Kearse who played safety on Deshaun Watsons Clemson team. The NFL hasnt seen a player like Simmons in a long time, athletes with his build are usually playing basketball. You can not compare him to Taylor Mays because Mays played a majority of his snaps at cover 2 safety and still had less interceptions then Simmons. Justin Simmons ran a 4.6 at the combine and has crazy loose hips, again, not a solid comp at all.
And to answer the thought of a magical scheme, you dont need a magical scheme, the regular 3-4 is designed to have free roam LB, thats why the d lineman in front are 2 gapping so that the linebackers can run free. Betcher ran a 1-gap 50 front, which would not be a good fit for Simmons unless he played money backer.
I like Kenneth Murray but he misdiagnoses a lot of plays and gets caught in no mans land, his acceleration and movement through trash is elite though. I think they will both be good to great players in the NFL. My preference is Simmons but I like both for NYG. You just cant coach length and pure speed.
My bad. Thanks.
Need to start using my glasses when I try to read BBI off my phone... ;)
You guys are missing the point. If the all world Clemson D coordinator saw similarities in those players you want him at 4. He’s a weak player. Look at his full game highlights. Look at bectons full game tape vs Clemson in that film Focus on Simmons everyone will change their mind after seeing that tape. The guy couldn’t stay on his feet in the run game. Kearse was smart enough to realize he can’t mix it up inside at linebacker. Simmons will be a safety in the nfl. He is not a linebacker. “Only weakness is shedding blocks” lmao. Only weakness. That’s half of fucking football is shedding locks if you plan to play anywhere near the los. Show me where you see blitz ability. His tackles for a loss are free rush lanes due to a hell of a talented defense. An impact linebacker who can shed blocks and use his hands as well as his body and fight through blockers is Kenneth Murray. Also, for everyone pointing out his size and weight etc. size and weight doesn’t equate to a physical player. To me simmons at best will be a Keenan Robinson. My guess is Simmons will fall on draft day and everyone on this board will be shocked.