Williams, Cleveland Plain Dealer on Isaiah Simmons

In comment 14810360 gidiefor said:

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Peppers was touted as a Safety, who could explode through the gaps with speed and not get touched, a running back and a returner. His scouting reports said he was not good in coverage. He was a three tool college player and he is 6'1" Simmons can cover -- he has off the charts ability on coverage and area of NY Giants weakness, and he can turn the corner and pass rush - and punch the Offensive Tackle and get around him - these are two very different tools than Peppers has shown. Also he is 6' 5" and has a large wingspan -- it's a very different body type than Peppers I love his abilities -- he does seem to stop playing sometimes - and when you compare him to Chase Young I think Young is a much more aggressive and physical player -- but Simmons has some mad skills that you don't find in combination much. Young is all Pass Rusher, violent and quick Simmons can pass rush and cover -- and he can lay the wood JonC doesn't like SImmons - I wonder if he could speak up about it -- but the tape I've seen on him shows a pretty damn good defensive player with multiples - and that is the buzz coming out of Judge

I think JonC would say Simmons doesn't have enough dog in him. I agree with JonC.

should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.

In comment 14810287 Biteymax22 said:

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But the reality is one question needs to be answered, can he do those things at the NFL level? Is he stout enough to play inside in the NFL? Is he rangy enough to play single high? Is he quick enough to play in the slot? Will he be able to effectively pass rush? Remember prior to 2019 he had 2.5 career sacks, and only one of his 2019 sacks came against a ranked opponent. While I'd love an impact linebacker in the worst ways, I think there are some questions about Simmons that are going to pop up closer to the draft. He'll still be a top 10 pick, but I wouldn't be shocked if he goes closer to 10 than 4.

You don't want to draft a jack of all trades master of none player that high. Only if they have a position for him that they think he can be a star at do I think he should go at #4.

In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said:

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should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240.

Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.

as do most. then you watch a full game and there are a lot of points he doesnt show on tape even though you are looking for him. Hard to explain but i keep getting the sense that he will always be that guy that leaves you saying why can't he do that more often? At 4 I want someone that is on tape the whole game. Even if he is not making plays you see his presence. I dont get that with Simmons.

In comment 14810463 ZogZerg said:

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In comment 14810291 Jan in DC said: Quote: please take those statistics with a grain of salt. Clemson didn't play any competition until their final two games of the season. Agree with this. ACC was garbage this year.

Yes down year for top ACC teams. However, look at the NCAA Champ game. He looked good and fast in that game.

You can only play the team in front of you.

In comment 14810500 Biteymax22 said:

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In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said: Quote: should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240. Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230.

Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.

Steelers know how important the spot it. They drafted Ryan Shazier ht 6'1" 230, their defense improved once they had him. Then that awful injury occurred and the Steelers defense suffered again. So they traded up to get Devin Bush because these types of athletes do not grow on trees. Devin was 5'11" 23lbs. Boom, defense got better again - this is not a coincidence. The size argument is just wrong. Oh Luke Kuechly 6'3" 242.

Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage.

The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.

In comment 14810532 SteelGiant said:

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Steelers know how important the spot it. They drafted Ryan Shazier ht 6'1" 230, their defense improved once they had him. Then that awful injury occurred and the Steelers defense suffered again. So they traded up to get Devin Bush because these types of athletes do not grow on trees. Devin was 5'11" 23lbs. Boom, defense got better again - this is not a coincidence. The size argument is just wrong. Oh Luke Kuechly 6'3" 242. Sacks dont always come from pure strength. Many from deception and speed. Without speed you cant cover and if you cant cover the QB will rid the ball before your size is advantage. The only question is whether the Giants scouts - the professionals think he can do what is necessary at the next level. If they think he can - you pick him as soon as you can.

I hope he's smart.
It sounds like many of you want him as a key part of the defense to:

1.) match up against TE 1-on-1
2.) shed blockers and be stout in the middle on 1st and 2nd down
3.) rush the passer on the edge
4.) cover the slot
5.) possibly play in the box as a safety

That's asking a lot of a player on any down and distance situation.

around according to their strengths and opponents weaknesses. He could use more power to play off blocks, but you can add muscle. You can't add the speed and quickness that are naturally his.

big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far.

So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that.

I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.

To be drafted at #4 he has to be pro bowl/all pro level at at least one of those positions. Is he? Being very good at all those isn't good enough. In the NFL he's likely to play one position 90% of the time. What position is that?

In comment 14810559 bw in dc said:

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big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far. So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that. I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.

I also feel similarly about the OT class.

In comment 14810559 bw in dc said:

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big, thicker defenders in the box - based on who he drafted in Carolina and here thus far. So based on that prototype, I just don't see Simmons fitting that. I really like Simmons, especially for today's game, but we could fill other needs at #4 with similar quality to Simmons...So I would say #4 is probably too high.

Gettleman drafted Shaq Thompson who played safety and running back in college and that pick worked out pretty well. Needless to say, I think Isaiah Simmons is in our line of fire and they are definitely doing their homework.

In comment 14810531 Professor Falken said:

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In comment 14810500 Biteymax22 said: Quote: In comment 14810486 Professor Falken said: Quote: should be interesting. Wouldn't be surprised if he runs a 4.4 and weighs in at 235-240. Word of warning, and this applies to all prospects. Guys who have size/weight knocks on them coming into the combine can easily manipulate things (Carb/sodium loading) to make themselves 8-10lbs heavier for weigh ins, then have that weight disappear by workouts. Any good agent would advise this if it is going to have a major impact on draft positions. If we weighs in at 235-240, that tells me he walks around at 225-230. Here he is three weeks ago. We'll see what he looks like at the Combine.

Will be interesting, he looks like a basketball player in that pic.

In comment 14810353 Rudy5757 said:

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One of his weaknesses is engaging blockers and I think he is a liability against the run. He doesnt seem to have the killer instinct either imo. I think people fall in love with his numbers but he seems to get lost a lot of games and his plays come in spurts. He doesn't get through traffic as well as you would like. I see him as a good player in the NFL but not a great player. I would be happier with him after 15 not at 4.

To quote our coach, don't tell me what he doesn't do well, tell me what he does do well.

I have no doubt if he's our pick our coaches will play to his strengths and one of them happens to be one of our D's biggest weakness and that's covering TE's. Throw in his overall versatility and they'll be finding ways to use everything he excels at.

from what I can see he comes on fast, hits hard and low, and takes players off their feet -

those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play --

His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three --

If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space.

Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense

In comment 14810269 DonnieD89 said:

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I’ve heard the argument that Simmons is a similar player to Peppers, being utilize the same way. My question to everyone is can both Peppers and Simmons play on the same field together. Would that be an advantage?

Peppers is at best average in coverage. I’d suggest below average. He’s not nor was he ever sen close to the production Simmons had. The Mich fans here go w the silly lie he was moved to LB due to lack of depth there at Mich. if he just was t good enough to cover. He was supposed to be CB. Then S. Then LB.

Sure kids move like that when they put on size. He’s not even a big FS. He’s also not all that tall. I get that some People say they think Simmons is over rated or shouldn’t be the pick at 4 but Peppers is pretty much like Manti Te’o. A 5 star HS kid who people wanted to be that good in the NFL.

If the Giants are in locc CD e w Simmons skill set Peppers on the roster means nothing. He had some flashes but last year but no reason to pass on Simmons who is about 1000 times better in coverage period

In comment 14810659 gidiefor said:

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from what I can see he comes on fast, hits hard and low, and takes players off their feet - those of you saying that he's a Jack of all Trades Master of none - have not watched him play -- His edge rushing is excellent, and he has technique and wingspan; his pass coverage is also excellent (did I mention his wingspan which he puts to good use); his playing speed is extremely fast and hard and he wraps up really well -- so I don't get this Master of None - he way above average at all three -- If you are arguing he can't play inside -- that's correct -- that's not his strength -- but he's awesome rushing at the outside LB spot, and when he drops into coverage, and he plays really well in space. Now the dog comment -- I can't address that -- but what he does well are all things the Giants have been missing on the defense

No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.

In comment 14810673 Big Blue '56 said:

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No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop.

Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor

In comment 14810681 gidiefor said:

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In comment 14810673 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: No idea what the dog comment means, but if he is who you and others say he is, if he can be what this D needs, how can this not be a no-brainer. Please don’t say, “not at 4,” as I heard that BS with Jones at 6, non-stop. Bruce - the dog comment is a reference to a player's mentality -- it's the "it" factor

If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara

Giants were supposedly interested in a similar player,name was Zach Cunningham.Remember Jerry kept passing on him.He went late 2nd round.

I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy

In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said:

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If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara

There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play

In comment 14810717 gidiefor said:

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In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play

Of course, that’s a given. But how does anyone judge the “it” factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the “it,” or the “heart” of a prospective pro

In comment 14810727 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 14810717 gidiefor said: Quote: In comment 14810696 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: If the player is deemed one of the best in the nation, how can he lack the “it” factor? No one can motor at 100% unless they’re Frank Ferrara There are plenty of examples of great college players that did not make it in the NFL because they didn't have the right mentality for the next level of play Of course, that’s a given. But how does anyone judge the “it” factor of an All-American BEFORE he gets to the Pros? Even scouts oft times are wrong on the “it,” or the “heart” of a prospective pro

That's completely true, but that's what you have to do when deciding to draft a player - particularly in that early spot.

In comment 14810698 ghost718 said:

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Giants were supposedly interested in a similar player,name was Zach Cunningham.Remember Jerry kept passing on him.He went late 2nd round. I don't know how you can spend the 4th pick on this guy

Zach Cunningham is an absolute beast for Houston, please use a different example

Was an absolute tackling machine, with bad feet in coverage, I don’t if there are any similarities besides their wingspan.

and not enough OLB to be a difference maker in the NFL to the extent I want from a #4 overall pick and LB. He's a Safety, or he's another Leonard Floyd. Not impressed, we should expect a smarter use of a high draft pick.

Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all.

Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK

Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS

Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH.

The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?

I don't particularly agree that the 4th pick's need for value is met w/ by any OT.
As I've stated elsewhere here, we do need a defensive play-maker and another name thatcould be viewed @ 4th is Murray.
Larry

In comment 14810800 Torrag said:

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Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity.

Simmons played in the JV league

In comment 14810826 uther99 said:

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In comment 14810800 Torrag said: Quote: Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Simmons played in the JV league

He made both J.K Dobbins and Clyde Edwards Helaire look slow, with game changing tackles. That is not JV, that is two future NFL starting rb’s.

Gettleman's opinion ain't likely to important with regards to Simmons. Rather the opinions of all the college coaches that coached against Simmons, some of whom are on Judge's staff will likely count more.

Anyone's dismissing Simmons based on comparisons to old-school LB's is foolish. He and Becton are the two most likely candidates for the Giants to draft at #4.

The 3-4 is designed to have one Thumper who takes on blocks, mostly the backside guard, and one ILB who is a free roamer, mainly free of block shedding responsibilities and is burdened with making sideline to sideline tackles. Why invest in all these dlineman that can eat double teams if we’re not going to invest in a LB that can thrive in space?? We are one of the few perfect situations for Simmons to flourish as an ILB

The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set.

If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.

He will get run over in run game and needs a free run to blitz effectively. Doubt he can cover NFL slot WRs. I don't like tweeners, swiss army knife, unicorns, as he is called. they never pan out

If giants pick him, hope i am wrong

In comment 14810849 Ivan15 said:

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The Giants need real ballers but not a Swiss Army knife. I am okay playing all over in college, but there better be a niche for him in the pros. One position enhanced by his unique skill set. If he is the coverage LB covering TEs, that would be fine. That is probably the biggest historic flaw in this defense. It has been that way for 20 years.

If Simmons can handle covering a TE as a backside curl defender that would free Peppers up to play roll safety and rob in-breaking routes. Deandre Baker would no longer worry about if his man runs slants, posts or ins, and can sit on comeback and streaks. The zone coverage implications are tremendous and don’t get me started on how it would open up Peppers to be a monster blitzer off the edge in man coverage if Simmons can truly lock down te’s. Please start thinking outside the box

Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. I’m more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. I’d probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.

In comment 14810800 Torrag said:

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Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all. Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH. The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it?

What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.

In comment 14810874 The_Boss said:

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Assuming the Lions trade out or take a QB, Okudah will be there. I’m more intrigued with pairing him with Baker for the next 5-8 years than anything else. I’d probably even take the top OT (DG has to fix this OL; enough with this bullshit) at 4 over Simmons. Not every hole is going to get fixed this offseason. There are too many holes. The faster you come to grips with this the better. As much as we need it, pass rush and better LB play probably remains an issue next season.

Think I agree that Okudah should be the pick. Having a CB that can cover 1:1 can do wonders for the pass rush.

Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.

In comment 14810886 JonC said:

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In comment 14810800 Torrag said: Quote: Simmons production both statistically and in impact plays ie turnovers/TFL/Sacks dwarfs Floyd's when you compare their by positional opportunity. Remember Simmons played in the secondary nearly 50% of his college snaps, only in the box on 36% and didn't rush the passer much until this season. Yet he has nearly as many tackles for loss and more than half of Floyd's sacks production in one season as a blitzer. All while compiling 5X as many pass defenses and 4 interceptions to none for Floyd. Floyd basically lined up and either played in the box or rushed. He was a forward moving player and didn't cover much at all. Floyd in 37 games: 0INT/4PD/5FF//182TKL/26.5TFL/17.5SK Simmons in 44 games: 4INT/20PD/6FF/238TKL/28.5TFL/11SKS Comparing the two is sorta apples to oranges as are most players when studying Simmons. As I've said before he's an unusual prospect. Floyd's a pretty poor comp TBH. The question of 'dog in him' or toughness/desire is very difficult to get a handle on from afar imo. Do I want him taking an OG head on if he can't win that matchup? Or do I want him slipping the tackle and making a play? I certainly wouldn't describe Simmons as 'stout at the point of attack'...but again that's not really his game now...is it? What I'm getting at is Simmons as a front seven defender in the NFL is more likely to be Floyd than the impact edge talent we envision. Too soft, avoids contact, he's going to be more effective going backwards and covering downfield, imo. I don't spend #4 overall on that.

JonC would you select Okudah at #4 if he's there?

but I would stack up my trade down options before making the pick. We're hurting for quality talent in the front seven and OL.

In comment 14810888 WillVAB said:

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Everything has pretty much been covered but the bottom line is he has too many holes in his game to be a top 5 pick.

Too many holes? About the only thing he is not rock solid in is taking on olineman straight up...

because he plays in a JV league.

The reasons some of you come up with to not like someone are so freaking foolish.

So it was his weight which I already gave examples of good cover linebackers his size. Then it the fact he plays in the ACC which produced the under sized can't play in the NFL Aaron Donald.

Seriously - If we do not draft him I will assume it is because the professional experts saw something they dont like or they saw something they love with someone else. I am a Giants fan and I will have to trust them to make the right decision like Daniel Jones. ACC by the way - another JV player

Anyway - I hope the opposite happens - I hope there are things our scouts see in him and think he will be awesome and it turns out they are right. That is my wish right now. He could be really special if he can produce in the NFL - plain and simple

There are no sure things and I am not a professional scout. I like what I see from the player I could be wrong, and scouts get things wrong all the time too. But his weight and what division of college football he played in are just silly reasons not to like a football player. The dude produced in college is worth a 1st round pick in the NFL - he deserves a little more credit than what some are giving him.

The whole I like him at 15 but not 4 is another argument that I never like. That is the Daniel Jones - I like him 17 and not at 6 crap. You get one 1st round pick in most cases - and you need to get it right regardless of what pick it is.

Like I said before I hope that Miami wants to trade up into our spot for a QB and we get an extra pick, that lets us take a chance with a possible dynamic player like Simmons and still have a chance to get an OT. I have not idea which OT is worth the 4th pick vs the other OTs but Im not a scout.

All things being equal -which they may not be- there a good group of Oline and WRs in this draft and not a lot LBs. I am ok with taking the risk vs reward with Simmons

This assumes facts not in evidence. Why does he have to be a 'front seven defender'? That wasn't his primary role in college. He played multiple positions and less than 40% were as a front seven defender.

I don't understand this urge to pigeonhole him to a position on the field he didn't even for play the majority of his snaps.

Guy could run like the wind in a straight line. Big hitter who played amazingly well in college. In the nfl you defend a totally different type of athlete. Couldn’t turn his hips and run and I see that same problem with simmons. In the NFL he will be off the ball even more. He gets killed in the run game. He’s a slot corner big nickel player who probably could not defend the elite nfl tight ends and slot wr in the nfl. Again, the athletes in college vs the pros is a big difference which people seem to forget. Lining up all over the place in college is a wonderful, rarely translates to the nfl. . He isn’t Devon white. He isn’t roquan smith. He isn’t an elite chase and hit linebacker like Kenneth Murray. Many of you have pointed out his defense of moss when they played LSU. Thaddeus moss will most likely go undrafted and not make the nfl.

He just is what he is to my eye, which isn't what I consider a priority of skills to draft at #4 overall. I understand what his strengths were in college and that reinforces my point as to what he will be in the NFL.

Yours truly,

Coach Judge

a prospect who projects best to a backend run and chase LB safety hybrid is not a priority to my build plan. It's that simple for me.