The usual answer is -- "You can't build your team through FA."
But if you focus on 4 position players -- and with what DG has done in the draft along with pickups and a few of the older players and a certain expectation for this year's draft-- then how would being aggressive and getting 4 good players in FA be considered "building through FA?"
IMO there has been way too much acceptance of lousy football. How about trying to win football games instead of being okay with a piece-of-crap team?
How would this look? Take up Solder's offer for a pay cut. Cut Ogeltree, Ellison, Martin and Bethea. Maybe Pulley too.
We know DG loves LW - for talking points they sign LW, a premiere pass rushing OLB (better than Golden), Connor McGovern and Littleton.
Come draft - you trade down very little but get the best LT in the draft and move Solder to RT. After that - you can primarily do BPA and the 2nd rd pick should be a starter or for example a good WR that will eventually start next year while being very good this year etc.
***This then becomes a team that should be able to stop the run, rush the passer, and possibly have a chance to run the football while potentially giving Jones more time/ and protection as well.
I pretty much have to discount the last D regime headed by the very disappointing (to me, as I had extremely high hopes) Bettcher. Let’s see what’s in store for him and other youngins’ with the new staff
On the other hand, if you know exactly what specific players can and will push you over the top to make you a Superbowl contender, then it's foolish not to be aggressive.
In the end, it's a little like the draft in that it's a crapshoot
But in this context, singling him out as really struggled is a reach.
It is highly unlikely you can fill all the holes, so you have choose to skimp in areas where you might already have an answer.
if you have to build your team through free agency
... then your drafts probably underperformed
... which means you’re pressing
... and overpaying
... when the real problem is your drafts
... so you may have a quick benefit
... but you only prolong the problem.
If your drafts are good then spending up for guys like Kareem, plaxico, pierce makes sense.
What the Giants don't have are many other young players on the brink of free agency, and that helps open the possibility to acquire young veterans ready for a big 2nd contract.
There's nothing wrong paying really good, young veterans a lot of money. It's when you pay just good or a little older players a lot of money that hurts.
And unfortunately, the Giants are an organization with a GM that has missed badly in free agency.
Can you cite me some examples in recent years that didn't?
Can you cite me some examples in recent years that didn't?
Zeke?
How are you going to get an elite pass rusher without giving up a big long-term contract?
Connor McGovern and Lilleton are going to want long-term contracts.
If you don';t pay for these guys for example-- how are you going to get a pass rusher next year? Anyone coming out that is real good is going to get a long term contract, isn't he? Unless you want to settle for someone mediocre and "hope" they perform?
What about center? Gmen have no center. You want someone young like McGovern? He is going to want a long term contract. Or are you going to keep getting the cheap guys such as last year's RT Remmers.
If you don't pay long-term contracts then the team is going to stink yet again this year. That's a problem of accepting losing.
Can you cite me some examples in recent years that didn't?
There is a growing trend to sign guys early.
In addition to Zeke, I believe Goff got extended early. Maybe went too. I posted about it a few month ago and had more examples but can’t remember them now. Not a widespread practice but not unheard of.
How do you think they'll be next year without aggressively going after Free Agents?
On offense they lost one tackle and one center. Their other LT stinks. ANd we know the three most important OLINE positions are Tackles and center.
ANd on defense we lost the most important position on defense which is a pass rusher. And how risky is it to keep Ogeltree?
And I'm just acknowledging DG is going after LW. Still need the pass rusher and ILB.
ISN't it more of a risk to just sit on our butts and accept stinking?
if you have to build your team through free agency
... then your drafts probably underperformed
... which means you’re pressing
... and overpaying
... when the real problem is your drafts
... so you may have a quick benefit
... but you only prolong the problem.
If your drafts are good then spending up for guys like Kareem, plaxico, pierce makes sense.
But getting 4 players doesn't mean you are building your team through Free Agency, does it?
We overspent on 3 players for 1 playoff run and then the wheels fell off.
We got away with it the Plax/McKenzie off season because there was no rookie cap at the time. So instead of overspending on FA and an overpriced 1dst rounder, we spent what we would have spent on a 1st rounder and plus some more to grab those 2 players.
It doesn't work to well with the Rookie Cap in place. It is better to go for 2nd tier players.
DG better not overspend in FA this year. He's feeling the heat and it's easy to try to do that to save your job, but its going to hurt.
We need to go back to the days where we took chances on good players coming off of injuries that took better deals, and carried a little bit of risk.
Is this a joke???
On the other hand, if you know exactly what specific players can and will push you over the top to make you a Superbowl contender, then it's foolish not to be aggressive.
In the end, it's a little like the draft in that it's a crapshoot
So it's a crapshoot to go after free agents because you can't trust them. Plus it's a crapshoot in the draft.
So just give up and throw darts? How can you ever know you are super bowl contender with an attitude that "you don't know what you're going to get?" Those Free Agents have been in the league a while. Why are they a crapshoot vs other non-FA players? And if they are equal then how do you know you have a Super Bowl contender if it is all such a crapshoot? And player's can't learn new schemes? And scouts are worthless to determine if player's fit? What's the point of having scouts then?
This is what I am talking about. Not personal. But fans such as yourself have accepted losing. After all to paraphrase how you answered "Oh well it's all a crapshoot anyways."
How about having competent scouts knowing what they are doing and making more right moves than just sitting on their butts?
The Giants need a pass rusher.
The Giants need an ILB.
The Giants need a center.
The Giants need a new RT
The Giants LT stinks.
The giants CB and safety positions are questionable.
The giants have a concern over SS's and EE's health.
SO just sit on our butts again afraid of risk and just watch us suck yet again?
The goal is to build a consistent winner that has a shot at the SB every year. Overpaying in FA is not conducive to long term success. We should spend money in FA, but spend it smart. No more Solders, Betheas, Stewarts, Omamehs, etc. For that matter no more Harrisons or Vernons either. More Goldens...
We got into the situation because we drafted poorly and didn't choose FA's well.
Many posters on here have claimed DG has nailed the draft. ANd secondly he had nothing to work with when he 1st came in. SO now he has drafted two years there is talent -- so this is not anything like Reeese's era when he he did nothing of vale after that FA class. We have supporting players for more than juts 1 year
We have all this good youth supposedly. SO let's stop accepting failure because of what has happened in the past. Too many Giants fans have been comfortable with losing and just waiting and hoping something good might happen.
Without being agressive we are goign to suck again next year. Thsi accpetance has to stop. Get a pass riusher, get an ILB, get a cneter. They better pick up soem good free agents or just suck yet again.
The goal is to build a consistent winner that has a shot at the SB every year. Overpaying in FA is not conducive to long term success. We should spend money in FA, but spend it smart. No more Solders, Betheas, Stewarts, Omamehs, etc. For that matter no more Harrisons or Vernons either. More Goldens...
If you get 4 young free agents -- how is that hurting your long term? Fro example, how is it McGovern and Littleton won't help other than 1 year? ANd even LW -- she is 25/26.
Early indications suggest there will be a few high quality players available in FA. There’s nothing wrong with making moves to acquire these players. It becomes problematic when you blow top dollar on average players because that’s the best available (Vernon, Solder).
The Giants should be aggressive in FA, they just have to focus on the right players. Don’t blow money just because you have it.
The cap situation moving forward looks really good. Not just for 20 but 21 as well. The key will be paying the right guys in FA and good drafting.
Early indications suggest there will be a few high quality players available in FA. There’s nothing wrong with making moves to acquire these players. It becomes problematic when you blow top dollar on average players because that’s the best available (Vernon, Solder).
The Giants should be aggressive in FA, they just have to focus on the right players. Don’t blow money just because you have it.
The cap situation moving forward looks really good. Not just for 20 but 21 as well. The key will be paying the right guys in FA and good drafting.
+1(0000000000000000000000000000)
They are better off signing guys who are cut. Let Williams walk and golden as well. Hopefully you get 2 third round comps next year. That with whatever you get with trading down this year should be enough to work with.
At some point players drafted need to play well. Baker, carter, hill, Hernandez, love, Ballantine.
McGovern is one of the best OL available and we have sucked at the center position since OHara was here.
It’s time to invest in these 2 players.
I'm not seeing what you're seeing in that guy. I've seen nothing that even gives the slightest hint that Carter has the edge quickness to be an edge rusher at this level.
But getting 4 players doesn't mean you are building your team through Free Agency, does it?
Not if your drafts are good.
They are better off signing guys who are cut. Let Williams walk and golden as well. Hopefully you get 2 third round comps next year. That with whatever you get with trading down this year should be enough to work with.
At some point players drafted need to play well. Baker, carter, hill, Hernandez, love, Ballantine.
Are you saying DG's drafts have been awful? He's had 2 years of drafting and we'll have high picks in 1st 2 rounds this year. SO what you're saying is he sucks and should have been fired and we're going to be loser regardless what we do this year and next?
So you can't rely on any of his draft picks other than 2 or 3 players?
Eric. Read this thread. There are posters on here saying we shouldn't be aggressive. So you agree with me that we should or do you disagree?
Further-- haven't we heard two years ago DG was cash-strapped and couldn't be aggressive in his 1st year? (Which I disagreed with).
Some of the posts - people don't want us to be aggressive. I'm just offering imo they should be. Go after aggressively a pass rusher, an iLB, and a center. OFC I think they will also go after LW. AM I wrong on any of this in your opinion?
Can you cite me some examples in recent years that didn't?
Todd Gurley, Zeke Elliot, David Johnson, and Devonta Freeman are all recent 1st round running backs who were extended with richer contracts after their third year.
Premium top end running backs basically don't play out their rookie contracts. Barkley won't either.
They are better off signing guys who are cut. Let Williams walk and golden as well. Hopefully you get 2 third round comps next year. That with whatever you get with trading down this year should be enough to work with.
At some point players drafted need to play well. Baker, carter, hill, Hernandez, love, Ballantine.
With this strategy the Giants may finally be good heading into the 2025 season. That is if DG has awesome drafts for the next 5 years.
But that also assumes the Giants keep their good drafted players, who will ultimately be overpaid by your standards. If not, they’ll just spin their wheels replacing departed players in the draft and never really building a squad.
“Overpaying” for high quality players in FA isn’t a bad thing. It can quickly turn a weakness into a strength. The issue is paying top dollar for under performers. It’s management’s job to make sure they’re targeting the right players to pay.
Dumpster diving in FA can be just as problematic as a top dollar deal to a big name FA who doesn’t work out. The bargain bin route can lead to 5 or 6 overpaid guys (at lower cap figures) that can be hard to cut until a few years into the deal.
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we got into the situation we are in right now.
We got into the situation because we drafted poorly and didn't choose FA's well.
Many posters on here have claimed DG has nailed the draft. ANd secondly he had nothing to work with when he 1st came in. SO now he has drafted two years there is talent -- so this is not anything like Reeese's era when he he did nothing of vale after that FA class. We have supporting players for more than juts 1 year
We have all this good youth supposedly. SO let's stop accepting failure because of what has happened in the past. Too many Giants fans have been comfortable with losing and just waiting and hoping something good might happen.
Without being agressive we are goign to suck again next year. Thsi accpetance has to stop. Get a pass riusher, get an ILB, get a cneter. They better pick up soem good free agents or just suck yet again.
IF you don't think that our overspending in FA has put us into this hole we are currently in, this must have been you the past few years:
Seriously, look at the Solder contract, we made him the highest paid Left Tackle in the league and he is absolutely brutal.
You can still get talent in FA, but most teams should only go after the big Free Agents when they are a piece away, not filling one hole and creating others at the same time.
We do not need to get back into a cap mess by over paying for a handful of top FA. We need to get mid tier pieces that play above their pay grade, which is easier said then done.
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The guys that people want are going to be severely overpaid. Conklin is going to get way more than he’s worth.
They are better off signing guys who are cut. Let Williams walk and golden as well. Hopefully you get 2 third round comps next year. That with whatever you get with trading down this year should be enough to work with.
At some point players drafted need to play well. Baker, carter, hill, Hernandez, love, Ballantine.
With this strategy the Giants may finally be good heading into the 2025 season. That is if DG has awesome drafts for the next 5 years.
But that also assumes the Giants keep their good drafted players, who will ultimately be overpaid by your standards. If not, they’ll just spin their wheels replacing departed players in the draft and never really building a squad.
“Overpaying” for high quality players in FA isn’t a bad thing. It can quickly turn a weakness into a strength. The issue is paying top dollar for under performers. It’s management’s job to make sure they’re targeting the right players to pay.
Dumpster diving in FA can be just as problematic as a top dollar deal to a big name FA who doesn’t work out. The bargain bin route can lead to 5 or 6 overpaid guys (at lower cap figures) that can be hard to cut until a few years into the deal.
Actually the goal is to draft good players (foreign concept for the giants) and then resign them before they hit free agency to get a bit of a discount when you sign them
And if you look at the good teams that’s how they do it
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The guys that people want are going to be severely overpaid. Conklin is going to get way more than he’s worth.
They are better off signing guys who are cut. Let Williams walk and golden as well. Hopefully you get 2 third round comps next year. That with whatever you get with trading down this year should be enough to work with.
At some point players drafted need to play well. Baker, carter, hill, Hernandez, love, Ballantine.
With this strategy the Giants may finally be good heading into the 2025 season. That is if DG has awesome drafts for the next 5 years.
But that also assumes the Giants keep their good drafted players, who will ultimately be overpaid by your standards. If not, they’ll just spin their wheels replacing departed players in the draft and never really building a squad.
“Overpaying” for high quality players in FA isn’t a bad thing. It can quickly turn a weakness into a strength. The issue is paying top dollar for under performers. It’s management’s job to make sure they’re targeting the right players to pay.
Dumpster diving in FA can be just as problematic as a top dollar deal to a big name FA who doesn’t work out. The bargain bin route can lead to 5 or 6 overpaid guys (at lower cap figures) that can be hard to cut until a few years into the deal.
Also signing guys who are cut is not always dumpster diving.
You can overvalue a player, and it could turn out he either doesn’t reach the performance you expect. That happens, that’s general management. But a player should slot into a value. If you’re going to make the guy the highest paid at a position, you’ve got to have good reason to believe he will be really good.
There’s a spectrum of compensation. There aren’t just the highest paid, then bottom basement. Getting sucked into the fallacy there isn’t is asinine.
I think signing a few B and C level free agents is a good way to go, however, we need to get a top end young pass rusher like Ngakoue or maybe Judon. I wanted ZDarius Smith last year and he proved to be a great signing for Green Bay. I think Ngakoue can have a great effect on our entire defense. He is very young and very productive and is entering his prime. These are the kind of players you invest big money in.
McGovern is another young guy who has proven he can play at a high level and is just entering his prime. The center position is pivotal to overall line success. We have had line issues for way too long.
I believe while we will be looking for affordable players during free agency, I really believe Gettleman and Co. Will be looking for quality guys along both lines and will be willing to sign guys at the top of the market.
Our front office etc needsnto do a better job of selecting budding talent with a good price tag vs painting us into another corner shortly thereafter.
You can overvalue a player, and it could turn out he either doesn’t reach the performance you expect. That happens, that’s general management. But a player should slot into a value. If you’re going to make the guy the highest paid at a position, you’ve got to have good reason to believe he will be really good.
There’s a spectrum of compensation. There aren’t just the highest paid, then bottom basement. Getting sucked into the fallacy there isn’t is asinine.
Yea, there’s signings like Dwayne Harris, Ellison, Omameh, and Kareem Martin where the end result is arguably worse than one higher dollar signing that doesn’t work out or meet “value.”
Getting value in FA is more a function of luck than skill. Every team is looking for that cheap FA that’s super productive in season. This usually requires rolling the dice on a guy coming off an injury or an older player. Neither is attractive as an overall strategy of attack for FA this year.
The Giants will have close to 90 mil to spend in FA this year. Only spending if the player is pure value may give the bean counters a hard on, but it won’t get the Giants any closer to being a good team.
Captures the core point.
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A GM should never make a mistake of overpaying. You should never walk away saying “I overpaid, but I had to.”
You can overvalue a player, and it could turn out he either doesn’t reach the performance you expect. That happens, that’s general management. But a player should slot into a value. If you’re going to make the guy the highest paid at a position, you’ve got to have good reason to believe he will be really good.
There’s a spectrum of compensation. There aren’t just the highest paid, then bottom basement. Getting sucked into the fallacy there isn’t is asinine.
Yea, there’s signings like Dwayne Harris, Ellison, Omameh, and Kareem Martin where the end result is arguably worse than one higher dollar signing that doesn’t work out or meet “value.”
Getting value in FA is more a function of luck than skill. Every team is looking for that cheap FA that’s super productive in season. This usually requires rolling the dice on a guy coming off an injury or an older player. Neither is attractive as an overall strategy of attack for FA this year.
The Giants will have close to 90 mil to spend in FA this year. Only spending if the player is pure value may give the bean counters a hard on, but it won’t get the Giants any closer to being a good team.
You're conflating value with cheap. A great player can be valued at a very high, or record rate.
Value doesn't mean cheap at all. It means you have a system that rates the relative worth of players and only pay them at that worth.
Nate Solder isn't a better player because he's extremely expensive. Sterling Shepard isn't a bad player because he's paid fairly.
If there is a really good player available in UFA the Giants should pay him a lot of money. And then there is a spectrum of compensation from minimum salaries on up.
The 2017 Giants were top loaded with a handful of big contracts, how did that work out?
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In comment 14812285 christian said:
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A GM should never make a mistake of overpaying. You should never walk away saying “I overpaid, but I had to.”
You can overvalue a player, and it could turn out he either doesn’t reach the performance you expect. That happens, that’s general management. But a player should slot into a value. If you’re going to make the guy the highest paid at a position, you’ve got to have good reason to believe he will be really good.
There’s a spectrum of compensation. There aren’t just the highest paid, then bottom basement. Getting sucked into the fallacy there isn’t is asinine.
Yea, there’s signings like Dwayne Harris, Ellison, Omameh, and Kareem Martin where the end result is arguably worse than one higher dollar signing that doesn’t work out or meet “value.”
Getting value in FA is more a function of luck than skill. Every team is looking for that cheap FA that’s super productive in season. This usually requires rolling the dice on a guy coming off an injury or an older player. Neither is attractive as an overall strategy of attack for FA this year.
The Giants will have close to 90 mil to spend in FA this year. Only spending if the player is pure value may give the bean counters a hard on, but it won’t get the Giants any closer to being a good team.
You're conflating value with cheap. A great player can be valued at a very high, or record rate.
Value doesn't mean cheap at all. It means you have a system that rates the relative worth of players and only pay them at that worth.
Nate Solder isn't a better player because he's extremely expensive. Sterling Shepard isn't a bad player because he's paid fairly.
If there is a really good player available in UFA the Giants should pay him a lot of money. And then there is a spectrum of compensation from minimum salaries on up.
The 2017 Giants were top loaded with a handful of big contracts, how did that work out?
The 17 Giants were top loaded because they had endured nearly 10 years of shitty drafts. Value hunting in FA wouldn’t have made the team any better.
The draft is more important than anything else. I don’t believe anyone is arguing against that point, or at least shouldn’t be. That’s the opportunity to get value.
Not really following your FA points. If the 10th best RT in the league gets paid anything higher than 10th best salary, that’s bad value in the most literal sense. But everyone knows that’s not how it works in FA. The 10th best RT may end up being the richest RT. The 15th best QB will end up being paid top 5 or better. That’s just the nature of FA.
My point is that the Giants should be focusing on acquiring talented players at core positions even if the cost is high. They have the money to do so. The cap looks even better in 21. If they make Conklin the highest paid RT, so be it. His age and talent justify the cost. Similar logic applies to a few of the ER who may hit the market.
The Giants aren’t going to attract any talent by simply offering FMV. They’re going to have to overpay to some degree to sign the guys they want to sign.
I'm saying the Giants shouldn't spend over a reasonable value assigned to the position and the player.
A really good player at a high importantance position will be expensive, and the Giants should sign as many of those players as they can afford. If a guy is in the top tier at his position, pay him a lot. Pay him the most if that's what it takes.
What they shouldn't do is exceed the value of a player in their estimate. That's how you end up with Vernon, Jenkins, Solder etc.
Pass rusher, corner, and left tackle are probably 3 of the 4 most important positions on the field. Each of those guys were the best available player at that position at the time, unfortunately they just weren't actually tops at the position overall.
And that's how you get an average player on a huge contract.