They're all disgraces to the game, but Bregman is particularly arrogant and unlikable. I can't tell you how much it thrills me that Houston's accomplishments have been rendered completely meaningless, whether they formally strip the trophy or not. They are this century's Black Sox.
and Manfred totally screwed this thing up. The people in and around baseball have been aware of this shit for years with these guys. It's not an accident that you have all of baseball wanting to pile on them. They've been dicks from the owner on down for years, a bunch of guys who fancied themselves the smartest men in the room.
If you listened to Jomboy this offseason when this was coming out, he was saying that this is a huge story and it's going to blow up more when Spring training was going to start because the league is tired of the Astros' shit. Mainly Astros fans taunted him and called him a joke. But Jomboy made it clear that as he was finding all these twitter highlights of them cheating, he was being pushed behind the scenes by several major league clubs to keep the pressure on and force MLB to do something. They finally had the Astros dead to rights and they didn't want Manfred to sweep it away.
The level of hate these guys are going to face is not going to be something seen in many years, from the fans on down. And Manfred can threaten to punish guys going after Astros, but we know that someone is going to bury a 99 mph fastball in Altuve and Bregman's ribs and say they were pitching inside and it got away.
The people in and around baseball have been aware of this shit for years with these guys. It's not an accident that you have all of baseball wanting to pile on them. They've been dicks from the owner on down for years, a bunch of guys who fancied themselves the smartest men in the room.
Exactly. That's why you have so many players being very outspoken in trashing the Astros in a way you never hear players ripping other players. It's nuts. I've never seen anything like it before. Most of the players are absolutely furious about how lightly these guys got off. And, the more Manfred and the Astros talk, the deeper they dig themselves. You have the commissioner of the league dismissing the World Series trophy as "a piece of metal" - how does he not forsee how that will be received by the players who break their asses trying to win that trophy?
and Manfred totally screwed this thing up. The people in and around baseball have been aware of this shit for years with these guys. It's not an accident that you have all of baseball wanting to pile on them. They've been dicks from the owner on down for years, a bunch of guys who fancied themselves the smartest men in the room.
If you listened to Jomboy this offseason when this was coming out, he was saying that this is a huge story and it's going to blow up more when Spring training was going to start because the league is tired of the Astros' shit. Mainly Astros fans taunted him and called him a joke. But Jomboy made it clear that as he was finding all these twitter highlights of them cheating, he was being pushed behind the scenes by several major league clubs to keep the pressure on and force MLB to do something. They finally had the Astros dead to rights and they didn't want Manfred to sweep it away.
The level of hate these guys are going to face is not going to be something seen in many years, from the fans on down. And Manfred can threaten to punish guys going after Astros, but we know that someone is going to bury a 99 mph fastball in Altuve and Bregman's ribs and say they were pitching inside and it got away.
I will second that everyone I know in baseball has been aware of the Astros cheating for years. One friend told me he has been hearing the buzzer rumor for years.
Also of note is that baseball people despise Luhnow. They hate him for firing so many scouts and also think he's a huge di**. (Perhaps the latter is intimately related to the former; it's hard to decouple that lol.)
JD Martinez, who plays for the other team under investigation, saying we just all must move on in 2020 and put this mess behind us. Sad day for baseball.
It has been amazing to me how vocal some players-i.e Bellinger, Bryant, Trout, etc.-have been about the Astros cheating scandal. Usually current players don't say much for fear of retaliation & being ostracized for speaking out against "the players fraternity", but that hasn't been the case here.
What some of these players can't seem to comprehend,
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
I watched almost in shock when the MLB network showed the comments. IMO, this is on the commish. Some player will get hurt in all this and it'll be on his head. Because they didn't sanction or insist strongly and publicly for sanctions against the players, the players will take care of it. The Yankees, Boston, LA, and just about every team will get their licks in.
the players will be moving on to the 2020 season but there's no reason to let up on the criticism. And why should they? This whole thing has been botched and both the Commissioner and the Astros should be reminded of it daily. The penalty was light in the grand scheme of things and if the players are getting "immunity" (ie not being suspended or fined) then getting shit all season is tame in comparison.
I watched almost in shock when the MLB network showed the comments. IMO, this is on the commish. Some player will get hurt in all this and it'll be on his head. Because they didn't sanction or insist strongly and publicly for sanctions against the players, the players will take care of it. The Yankees, Boston, LA, and just about every team will get their licks in.
How about you simply go out and beat them on the field instead of the cowardly way baseball players tend to deal with issues by throwing at batters 🤦🏾♂️. All of this backlash and baseball players now have a conscious around cheating yet they try and steal signs at every turn. I get it that the Stros took it to another level, but this entire idea that they are baseball’s public enemy #1 is ridiculous.
What some of these players can't seem to comprehend,
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
I've conducted many internal investigations where employees were accused or suspected of wrongdoing. We didn't grant them any type of immunity or special treatment. The immunity thing was 100% MLB being scared of the MLBPA.
They're all disgraces to the game, but Bregman is particularly arrogant and unlikable. I can't tell you how much it thrills me that Houston's accomplishments have been rendered completely meaningless, whether they formally strip the trophy or not. They are this century's Black Sox.
Except the Black Sox saw several players lose their careers, including a couple who were questionable at best as to whether they actually participated.
1) Obviously, Markakis is wrong in making this statement. That said, I think it speaks to the level of outrage among the players.
2) I heard on one radio show last night speculation that most teams are partaking in such activity. I have to disagree. First, he level and breadth of the outrage is too high for this to be widespread. Second, every team in the league partakes in stealing signs. I highly doubt most teams are going to the lengths the Astros have to both steal the signs and relay them to the batters. Again, the player outrage, I think, is a telling sign. Third, the only other team that has even been implicated is the Red Sox and their responses are equally telling that this very well might be true.
3) For me, Dusty Baker's comment about preventing beanings is problematic. I can see, in the guise of safety, MLB acquiescing and issuing a general warning, whether it be publicly or just to umpires. What would result is pitchers being further damaged by not being able to throw inside in many cases. which then further rewards the cheaters. Beanings are one thing, but warning or tossing guys when a pitch is up and in is far too excessive.
What some of these players can't seem to comprehend,
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
I've conducted many internal investigations where employees were accused or suspected of wrongdoing. We didn't grant them any type of immunity or special treatment. The immunity thing was 100% MLB being scared of the MLBPA.
Which is looking more and more absurd by the day since 29/30s (ok, maybe 28/30) of the MLBPA appear to be against the cheating!
angry, that caught my attention. Guy is quiet a church mouse.
I don't want on field retaliations because it will backfire. Always does. Pitcher and manager will get tossed, maybe the pitching coach and then be suspended. Let them stew in their own shit and soak up all the booing and taunts that they will receive all year. And I like the idea brought up about fans banging on trash cans during Astros' at bats.
The Black Sox also were doing something that wasn't that uncommon
Not to say that dumping games was widespread, but the Black Sox weren't a singular event. John McGraw tried to bribe an umpire in the 1908 World Series, though his role in it wasn't made public for decades. "Prince Hal" Chase, who was a star 1B of the dead ball era, was accused multiple times of throwing games, accusations that followed him his entire career and eventually saw him blackballed by organized baseball. Chase was a member of the 1917 Giants who lost the World Series to those same White Sox, and he and teammate Heinie Zimmerman were accused of throwing games to lose the series. The next year, the 1918 Series, with the Red Sox beating the Cubs, was also considered suspicious by many fans. Both teams were angered by the owners shortchanging them on their share of gate revenue, claiming poor attendance, almost leading to a mid-series strike. Cubs pitcher Phil Douglas was suspended for life in 1920 for his links to gamblers, and another Cubs pitcher, Claude Hendrix, retired under a cloud of suspicion before he could be suspended.
It was in this environment that the disgruntled members of the White Sox decided to get back at Charlie Comiskey by conspiring with gamblers. Eddie Cicotte later specifically cited the two prior World Series in 1917-18 as motivating factors.
angry, that caught my attention. Guy is quiet a church mouse.
Same with Yu Darvish, who is such a forgiving kind of guy that he tried to tamp down outrage at Yuli Gurriel after Gurriel was caught doing the slanty-eyes thing to mock Darvish himself during the 2017 World Series. Darvish said outright that the Astros should be stripped of their championship.
RE: The Black Sox also were doing something that wasn't that uncommon
Not to say that dumping games was widespread, but the Black Sox weren't a singular event. John McGraw tried to bribe an umpire in the 1908 World Series, though his role in it wasn't made public for decades. "Prince Hal" Chase, who was a star 1B of the dead ball era, was accused multiple times of throwing games, accusations that followed him his entire career and eventually saw him blackballed by organized baseball. Chase was a member of the 1917 Giants who lost the World Series to those same White Sox, and he and teammate Heinie Zimmerman were accused of throwing games to lose the series. The next year, the 1918 Series, with the Red Sox beating the Cubs, was also considered suspicious by many fans. Both teams were angered by the owners shortchanging them on their share of gate revenue, claiming poor attendance, almost leading to a mid-series strike. Cubs pitcher Phil Douglas was suspended for life in 1920 for his links to gamblers, and another Cubs pitcher, Claude Hendrix, retired under a cloud of suspicion before he could be suspended.
It was in this environment that the disgruntled members of the White Sox decided to get back at Charlie Comiskey by conspiring with gamblers. Eddie Cicotte later specifically cited the two prior World Series in 1917-18 as motivating factors.
Interesting stuff here. But, common or not, these players, Black Sox and otherwise, were punished for their actions. In some cases they lost their entire careers. In this case, not a single Astro player is losing even a single game.
Well, by the 1919 Series, the league was losing the public
Fans were fed up with what they perceived to be a crooked, dishonest sport after three straight series that were widely considered dirty. That's why baseball, which had mostly swept things under the rug to that point, came down so hard on the Black Sox. Despite the fact that the owners of the day were mostly domineering autocracts who exercised absolute power over their little fiefdom, they surrendered their power to Kenesaw Mountain Landis. They originally offered him a job as the chairman of a three member panel that would govern baseball, but he refused unless he was given sole authority. Not only that, he insisted on a lifetime contract. They basically agreed to make him dictator of baseball for life. They gave in because they felt it was the only way to restore public confidence in the sport.
RE: Well, by the 1919 Series, the league was losing the public
Fans were fed up with what they perceived to be a crooked, dishonest sport after three straight series that were widely considered dirty. That's why baseball, which had mostly swept things under the rug to that point, came down so hard on the Black Sox. Despite the fact that the owners of the day were mostly domineering autocracts who exercised absolute power over their little fiefdom, they surrendered their power to Kenesaw Mountain Landis. They originally offered him a job as the chairman of a three member panel that would govern baseball, but he refused unless he was given sole authority. Not only that, he insisted on a lifetime contract. They basically agreed to make him dictator of baseball for life. They gave in because they felt it was the only way to restore public confidence in the sport.
So Manfred isn't about to get a lifetime contract?
It really is amazing that players on teams that were not in the playoffs are speaking out.
Thanks for the history lesson on the lead in to the Black Socks scandal.
It's an era that's really interesting to me because most people aren't aware of it. They know about the Black Sox, and they've probably seen Eight Men Out and Field of Dreams, but they miss out on the context as to just why this was an existential crisis for baseball and why the punishments were so severe even for players who were only aware but didn't participate. It's also interesting that a lot of people don't realize the kind of men who made up most of the rosters back then - roughnecks who came up in rough and tumble factory towns, mining towns, and poor dirt farms. Most of them really didn't make all that much money in those days, and they were completely at the mercy of the team owners. Baseball was a pretty harsh world then. Given the circumstances, it becomes much easier to understand why some of them felt justified in taking a dive.
I watched almost in shock when the MLB network showed the comments. IMO, this is on the commish. Some player will get hurt in all this and it'll be on his head. Because they didn't sanction or insist strongly and publicly for sanctions against the players, the players will take care of it. The Yankees, Boston, LA, and just about every team will get their licks in.
You do realize that players have implicated the three teams you named in similar cheating...
baseball's public enemy #1. what they've done is as bad or worse than what the Black Sox did.
I take your point, but at least they were trying to win their games. The Black Sox were playing to lose.
I don't think fans today really understand the danger that game fixing presents to pro sports. If the games aren't legit, if the players aren't trying to win, what are you watching? Cheating is one thing — and our tolerance for it has grown pretty high — but throwing games seems a lot worse to me.
I dunno, maybe a lot of fans are inured to this because pro wrestling is so popular, and it's all scripted. Nobody watches WWE to see a real competition but people enjoy it anyway. So maybe a lot of people figure betting/fixing doesn't affect how they view the games. A lot of fans seem very blasé about it.
If you listened to Jomboy this offseason when this was coming out, he was saying that this is a huge story and it's going to blow up more when Spring training was going to start because the league is tired of the Astros' shit. Mainly Astros fans taunted him and called him a joke. But Jomboy made it clear that as he was finding all these twitter highlights of them cheating, he was being pushed behind the scenes by several major league clubs to keep the pressure on and force MLB to do something. They finally had the Astros dead to rights and they didn't want Manfred to sweep it away.
The level of hate these guys are going to face is not going to be something seen in many years, from the fans on down. And Manfred can threaten to punish guys going after Astros, but we know that someone is going to bury a 99 mph fastball in Altuve and Bregman's ribs and say they were pitching inside and it got away.
Exactly. That's why you have so many players being very outspoken in trashing the Astros in a way you never hear players ripping other players. It's nuts. I've never seen anything like it before. Most of the players are absolutely furious about how lightly these guys got off. And, the more Manfred and the Astros talk, the deeper they dig themselves. You have the commissioner of the league dismissing the World Series trophy as "a piece of metal" - how does he not forsee how that will be received by the players who break their asses trying to win that trophy?
If you listened to Jomboy this offseason when this was coming out, he was saying that this is a huge story and it's going to blow up more when Spring training was going to start because the league is tired of the Astros' shit. Mainly Astros fans taunted him and called him a joke. But Jomboy made it clear that as he was finding all these twitter highlights of them cheating, he was being pushed behind the scenes by several major league clubs to keep the pressure on and force MLB to do something. They finally had the Astros dead to rights and they didn't want Manfred to sweep it away.
The level of hate these guys are going to face is not going to be something seen in many years, from the fans on down. And Manfred can threaten to punish guys going after Astros, but we know that someone is going to bury a 99 mph fastball in Altuve and Bregman's ribs and say they were pitching inside and it got away.
I will second that everyone I know in baseball has been aware of the Astros cheating for years. One friend told me he has been hearing the buzzer rumor for years.
Also of note is that baseball people despise Luhnow. They hate him for firing so many scouts and also think he's a huge di**. (Perhaps the latter is intimately related to the former; it's hard to decouple that lol.)
Wouldn't be surprised though if in the end this benefits Houston with regards to beanballs, hard slides, etc.
@snyyankees
DJ LeMahieu says he's "not angry, but disappointed" with the Astros
0:14
9:11 AM · Feb 18, 2020
Just my observation.
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
How about you simply go out and beat them on the field instead of the cowardly way baseball players tend to deal with issues by throwing at batters 🤦🏾♂️. All of this backlash and baseball players now have a conscious around cheating yet they try and steal signs at every turn. I get it that the Stros took it to another level, but this entire idea that they are baseball’s public enemy #1 is ridiculous.
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
I've conducted many internal investigations where employees were accused or suspected of wrongdoing. We didn't grant them any type of immunity or special treatment. The immunity thing was 100% MLB being scared of the MLBPA.
2) I heard on one radio show last night speculation that most teams are partaking in such activity. I have to disagree. First, he level and breadth of the outrage is too high for this to be widespread. Second, every team in the league partakes in stealing signs. I highly doubt most teams are going to the lengths the Astros have to both steal the signs and relay them to the batters. Again, the player outrage, I think, is a telling sign. Third, the only other team that has even been implicated is the Red Sox and their responses are equally telling that this very well might be true.
3) For me, Dusty Baker's comment about preventing beanings is problematic. I can see, in the guise of safety, MLB acquiescing and issuing a general warning, whether it be publicly or just to umpires. What would result is pitchers being further damaged by not being able to throw inside in many cases. which then further rewards the cheaters. Beanings are one thing, but warning or tossing guys when a pitch is up and in is far too excessive.
Quote:
What some of these players can't seem to comprehend,
is that the Astros players were granted immunity.
Do you think the Astros players would have talked in the
investigation, if they were not granted immunity?
I think not, myself.
People are going to be upset, but lets not get absurd.
When a player says something like 'they need a beating',
even if he doesn't mean it literally, it just sounds so
ignorant and idiotic. I heard Trout say something yesterday, like 'we hear something new everyday'...
actually there is not anything new about the investigation itself.
What we are hearing are more players chiming in everyday.
At some point, people need to move on, the 2020 season
will be upon us very soon.
I've conducted many internal investigations where employees were accused or suspected of wrongdoing. We didn't grant them any type of immunity or special treatment. The immunity thing was 100% MLB being scared of the MLBPA.
Which is looking more and more absurd by the day since 29/30s (ok, maybe 28/30) of the MLBPA appear to be against the cheating!
I don't want on field retaliations because it will backfire. Always does. Pitcher and manager will get tossed, maybe the pitching coach and then be suspended. Let them stew in their own shit and soak up all the booing and taunts that they will receive all year. And I like the idea brought up about fans banging on trash cans during Astros' at bats.
It was in this environment that the disgruntled members of the White Sox decided to get back at Charlie Comiskey by conspiring with gamblers. Eddie Cicotte later specifically cited the two prior World Series in 1917-18 as motivating factors.
Same with Yu Darvish, who is such a forgiving kind of guy that he tried to tamp down outrage at Yuli Gurriel after Gurriel was caught doing the slanty-eyes thing to mock Darvish himself during the 2017 World Series. Darvish said outright that the Astros should be stripped of their championship.
It was in this environment that the disgruntled members of the White Sox decided to get back at Charlie Comiskey by conspiring with gamblers. Eddie Cicotte later specifically cited the two prior World Series in 1917-18 as motivating factors.
So Manfred isn't about to get a lifetime contract?
It really is amazing that players on teams that were not in the playoffs are speaking out.
Thanks for the history lesson on the lead in to the Black Socks scandal.
You do realize that players have implicated the three teams you named in similar cheating...
I don't think fans today really understand the danger that game fixing presents to pro sports. If the games aren't legit, if the players aren't trying to win, what are you watching? Cheating is one thing — and our tolerance for it has grown pretty high — but throwing games seems a lot worse to me.
I dunno, maybe a lot of fans are inured to this because pro wrestling is so popular, and it's all scripted. Nobody watches WWE to see a real competition but people enjoy it anyway. So maybe a lot of people figure betting/fixing doesn't affect how they view the games. A lot of fans seem very blasé about it.