I am really shocked by the outrage over sign stealing. Not that i don’t think it was bad and completely wrong, it was and is. I am outraged by it. But, PEDs enhanced performance, likely changed World Series outcomes and definitely affected the game. I get that there has never been proof that an organization helped obtain PEDs, but the result is still the same. And, even if the organizations didn’t help, they definitely willfully ignored it. Have players been shamed for PEDs? Yes. Have they suffered individual consequences for their actions? Yes. But nobody thinks that their teams titles are diminished because of their cheating. Shouldn’t they be? What is the difference?
You can't and you won't.
More than that, I think that the high-tech sign-stealing had a greater impact than PEDs. I still think the PED effect is over-stated on offense and that like last year, the balls were juiced during the steroid era as well.
But knowing what pitch is coming? That's something else entirely.
A good hitter taking steroids who recovers better and is a little stronger will be a better hitter. But strength doesn't totally correlate with hitting ability. There are still so many other factors at play.
The hardest part of hitting in baseball is pitch recognition and recognition in time to be able to track the ball and hit it.
Hitting with PEDs is a boost. Knowing what pitch is coming is a superpower.
If you were a DB in football, and before a game you could either take a pill that made you .1 seconds faster to cover a receiver, or have knowledge of exactly the route the WR was going to run on each play, which would you rather have?
I would bet any amount of money the DB would rather know the route he has to cover.
In poker, would you rather a pill that improved your memory, or have actual information about some of the hole cards the other players had?
If you were a goalkeeper on a PK, would you rather take a pill to be quicker/rangier, or would you rather know before the shot which direction the player was kicking the ball?
More than that, I think that the high-tech sign-stealing had a greater impact than PEDs. I still think the PED effect is over-stated on offense and that like last year, the balls were juiced during the steroid era as well.
But knowing what pitch is coming? That's something else entirely.
A good hitter taking steroids who recovers better and is a little stronger will be a better hitter. But strength doesn't totally correlate with hitting ability. There are still so many other factors at play.
The hardest part of hitting in baseball is pitch recognition and recognition in time to be able to track the ball and hit it.
Hitting with PEDs is a boost. Knowing what pitch is coming is a superpower.
If you were a DB in football, and before a game you could either take a pill that made you .1 seconds faster to cover a receiver, or have knowledge of exactly the route the WR was going to run on each play, which would you rather have?
I would bet any amount of money the DB would rather know the route he has to cover.
In poker, would you rather a pill that improved your memory, or have actual information about some of the hole cards the other players had?
If you were a goalkeeper on a PK, would you rather take a pill to be quicker/rangier, or would you rather know before the shot which direction the player was kicking the ball?
Rather instructive, I'd say.
I know it’s just my opinion, but it’s crazy to me that people think sign stealing is worse than PEDs. Both very bad...don’t want to lose sight of that. But people here want to overstate the PED use to help their argument of a “level playing field”. I don’t believe 90% of players were doing anabolic steroids. We are talking about decades of abuse versus a couple of seasons. Playoff implications with both but records were crushed by PEDs. History changed. The level of secrecy, preparation and money to get around the rules was astounding. To turn their bodies into something unnatural. The impact it had on youth sports. The comparison is not even close.
The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.
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Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t.
The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.
Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them?
But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.
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In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said:
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Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t.
The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.
Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them?
But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.
it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them
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In comment 14814232 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said:
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Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t.
The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.
Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them?
But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.
it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them
No it doesn't. Put the ball on a Tee in front of the hitter - then its the same as knowing your opponents cards.
Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming.
As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning).
Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance.
I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important
So are all of these players lying?
Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them?
But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.
it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them
No it doesn't. Put the ball on a Tee in front of the hitter - then its the same as knowing your opponents cards.
that argument is crazy. yikes.
you're not getting the distinction between ALL of the cards and some of the cards.
or if you are getting it and still making this argument then you just don't understand how advantageous it is to know what pitch is coming. we're talking about pro hitters - they don't need balls on a tee
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming.
As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning).
Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance.
I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important
Yes, I think there is a big difference when comparing an 80 mph batting practice pitch down the heart the plate each time versus a 95 mph fastball that can be placed anywhere. You don't? If that's the case, why aren't the Astros hitters cracking them out of the park each at-bat?
I've played baseball and also coached. We can disagree. Not sure why it bothers you so much, lol. But flame away like you normally do.
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
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Stanton per ESPN:
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage.
So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying?
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In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said:
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Stanton per ESPN:
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage.
So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying?
Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents. That's fine, I get it. They are more directly affected than other teams. But many of the loudest PED critics from years ago were also caught as PED users. So it's hard to take these guys seriously sometimes.
To allude to something you said earlier in the thread...prove to me that other teams weren't doing something similar.
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ludicrous.
Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming.
As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning).
Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance.
I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important
Yes, I think there is a big difference when comparing an 80 mph batting practice pitch down the heart the plate each time versus a 95 mph fastball that can be placed anywhere. You don't? If that's the case, why aren't the Astros hitters cracking them out of the park each at-bat?
I've played baseball and also coached. We can disagree. Not sure why it bothers you so much, lol. But flame away like you normally do.
It bothers me because it is illogical. And there is no fucking way you played at any level above little league - if you did and still hold that view, you are an idiot.
I played in college. I actually batted over .400 in a season. If I knew what pitch was coming, I'd put the odds of me hitting it where I wanted at 60% or higher. A MLB batter who knows a fastball is coming will not have to worry about being fooled - they can look for the release and figure out the location. As for why Astros didn't hit a HR everytime - they hit HR's at a higher rate and they hit for a higher average. There are tangible differences - statistical differences that are anomalies.
If you played the game - you should know as a second nature how important knowing what pitch is coming is. This shouldn't even be a debate.
LOL. Turning this into a way to bash the Yanks. Awesome. And lie about playing the game and coaching. Fucking tool.
With PEDs there's users on every team in the league. We had that evidence in the past and I'm about 99% sure its still the case now.
By the way, the loudest people to date have been Bellinger, Judge, Bauer, Clevinger, Trout, etc. In otherwords, lots of big name players across the league, definitely not just the yankees.
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Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents.
LOL. Turning this into a way to bash the Yanks. Awesome. And lie about playing the game and coaching. Fucking tool.
A way to bash the Yankees? Because I think that Stanton is wrong or that Yankee players are amongst the loudest in baseball? Okay. I have no reason to lie but think whatever you want, college baseball stud.
You are the most miserable poster on this site.
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Stanton per ESPN:
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
I think he referred to 2017 in part because he played in 159 games that year.
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In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said:
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Stanton per ESPN:
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
I think he referred to 2017 in part because he played in 159 games that year.
Fair enough
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In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said:
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In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said:
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Stanton per ESPN:
"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.
He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.
Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage.
So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying?
Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents. That's fine, I get it. They are more directly affected than other teams. But many of the loudest PED critics from years ago were also caught as PED users. So it's hard to take these guys seriously sometimes.
To allude to something you said earlier in the thread...prove to me that other teams weren't doing something similar.
lol the yankee players. laughable. If anything, Cody Bellenger (sp) has been the loudest. Hell, Lebron James just came out and was angry about this.
And FMIC is one the best and most reasonable posters on this site. just saying bruh
I’m sure Mets fans would be totally dismissive if the Nats and Braves knocked them out of the playoffs the past 3 seasons and then found to have been cheating.
Bunch of frauds would be going apeshit and they all know it.
You wanted to add context as if you understand the game.
Look - disagree if you want that all cheating is cheating, but taking it a step further to act as if PED use gives as much of an advantage as stealing signs, and it puts a glaring spotlight on ignorance about the game.
I don't think you can find any current or ex-player who doesn't realize how much of an advantage knowing the pitch gives. It is likely the single biggest advantage one can have in the game.
Why do you think the shift is effective? Because it plays the percentages of where a ball will be hit. making it more likely to be fielded.
Trying to say knowing the pitch isn't a massive advantage is one of the stupidest things a supposed ex-player or coach could make. That's why you have so many people denouncing this.
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jesus tapdancing christ.
My point was never to dismiss the effect that sign-stealing has on the game. I never said that it wasn't a massive advantage. I may have a differing view on how much of an advantage it was to the Astros, but I still said that it was a clear advantage to the team. The purpose of the thread was to discuss the difference between the two types of cheating. I happen to think that PEDs were worse. Not sure why that needs to break down in to childish name calling when my opinion doesn't match yours...but that seems to be your thing anyway.
This is not true. They were banned in 1991. But they didn’t institute leaguewide testing until 2003. That made it hard to get caught until then but it was still banned....
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Vincent himself admits that he had no power to change the rules in this way and that the letter was meant as a "moral statement". There was no official rule change.
In any case, not only was there no testing regime, there were no penalties on the books for violations, either of which would have had to be negotiated with and agreed to by the MLBPA.
A rule with no way to enforce it and no penalties for violation is not a rule.
To that point, why are we then looking at the 2017 Astros in a 2020 lens, rather than a 2017 lens? 2017 was when Manfred found out about the Red Sox using electronic equipment to steal signs from the Yankees. The Red Sox were given a slap on the wrist, and Manfred sent a memo to MLB teams that any future violations would be dealt with harshly. Granted, the Astros have been doing it since then, but calls to take away their 2017 title are ridiculous, considering the mildness of punishments levied out by Manfred in that time period.
Now you're not even trying anymore.
I'd prefer it gets left there, and every fan can choose to view it with as big or small of an asterisk as they please. For most people who actually realize what a massive deal it is, the year 2017 will always ring that bell of what massive cheaters the Astros were.
It gives me a good deal of satisfaction know that the Astros have exactly 1 title in the books, and that it's tainted as shit. I prefer that to showing them as having a clean zero titles. Leave it there. Don't help them erase it.
Same with the MVP. Leave it there and let everyone remember what a dirtbag Altuve was.
Hmmm.
We have been on the same site for years. We know what we read.
There are Mets fans that never get "perceived"
You get "perceived" because you provide a multi year inescapable fact base. It is what it is.
In this case, the gloves fit. Which is fine and its all your choices over time...but then wear the gloves.
You are much more rational and balanced than that comment, so I assume it was the kind of gaffe we all make from time to time.
Your history seems very clear. You are not just a Mets Fan. You are a fan of Yankee bashing almost every time you see an opening. Period.
The gloves fit. Wear the gloves or change the gloves. But don't gaslight us for remembering what you write. We didn't write it.
I’d be willing to chalk this up to someone’s opinion differing from mine but the math just doesn’t add up on this one. I’d go so far as to say your opinion isn’t even reasonable.
Sports is all about matchups and your reactions to them. It’s predominantly mental and if you have a mental edge you are going to set yourself up for success more than your opponent will, If you know something ahead of time and can react better to it that is infinitely more valuable than being slightly stronger or faster. I honestly can’t believe it’s even debatable.
Team Sponsored Cheating (in this case, stealing signs via electronic survelance, fully endorsed by at least three levels of the team...GM, MGR and players).
Big difference. Not sure why everyone doesn't see the distinction.
Sure, I’ve gotten into it with Yankee fans. But it’s generally not my thing to get into it unprovoked. But I’m sure you only see one side of things, which is not surprising.
My participation in this thread had zero to do with the Yankees. If you want to believe otherwise then that’s just you wearing your pinstriped shades on.
I’d be willing to chalk this up to someone’s opinion differing from mine but the math just doesn’t add up on this one. I’d go so far as to say your opinion isn’t even reasonable.
Sports is all about matchups and your reactions to them. It’s predominantly mental and if you have a mental edge you are going to set yourself up for success more than your opponent will, If you know something ahead of time and can react better to it that is infinitely more valuable than being slightly stronger or faster. I honestly can’t believe it’s even debatable.
UConn, if you want to compare what’s more advantageous in an at bat - knowing the pitch or being on PEDs - then I’d agree with you. My initial point was to compare the two scandals as a whole and offer my opinion on which one was worse. That was the point of the thread. I even mentioned multiple times that I wasn’t trying to minimize the issue of sign stealing, but of course that didn’t matter. I still don’t think it’s as simple as sign stealing being a “superpower”. Knowing what pitch is coming isn’t the same hitting batting practice - otherwise the Astros would have it 1000 homeruns.
If you want to point to the increase in HRs and BA as proof of the Astros cheating, that’s fine. But how do you how much of that increase is natural or from cheating? I think it’s a valid question. The Mets has a pretty big increase in HRs and BA themselves. But with no sign stealing involved.
I thought it was a good thread topic on a relevant issue. The funny thing is that I’ve had plenty of conversations about this with people. Some agree with me and some don’t. But not a single person called me a fucking idiot for disagreeing with their point of view.
Comparing PEDs, which I hated the thought of as well, to sign stealing is so off base. PEDs are an individuals choice and still require you to hit the ball that’s being pitched without knowing what it is. PEDs were rampant and I’m not so sure than any team gained a clear advantage. Sign stealing to me is like a football team knowing what play is coming every down-yes, you still have to stop it, but man does it make it easier on you.
And the decrease in Ks over the last 4 years was startling. No other team had anywhere near the drop in Ks.
And the use in the playoffs is a large part of the issue. Now you have the top 4 teams playing each other. At that level the teams are pretty equal in ability. Now give the Astros the ability to know what a pitcher like Robertson, Chapman, Severino is throwing. You don't think that is an advantage? Especially breaking ball pitchers whose out pitch is a BB and the batter just lays of it several times.
As far as steroids, the advantage was recovery time and not wearing down as the season moved into August. As players breakdown physically through the season, the ability to keep your strength vs a pitcher who is losing velocity on his FB is huge. (For Clemens his advantge was throwing against tired batters while maintaining his velocity.) The real steroids cheating was those players who did not stop using after they were finally told in no uncertain terms to stop. The penalties are now severe.
And as many have pointed out the difference between steroids and sign stealing through electronics is that the majority of players were steroid users while the Astros and maybe the Red Sox were the only teams that used the video after all teams were warned. (And the Red Sox have not yet been proven to have used after the Apple Watch incident.)
If video sign stealing was being used by other teams, why haven't players spoken out against other teams, especially players that moved on like Mike Fiers finally did. You would think that there would be a lot of piling on if other teams were doing the same.