NFT: PEDs vs Sign Stealing

is pretty damn stark. Players all over the league were taking PED's. Basically a large % of players were cheating (not to the equivalent of use in the NFL, but pretty broad)

The sign stealing is a coordinated effort using technology that benefits one group of players.

Also, PED use was an individual choice. The sign stealing was organizational.

1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions.

2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

PEDs were more of an individual type of cheating where there were systems in place to deter/punish it. Well, I could be making that up. Did they test for steroids prior to the uptick after the strike or no? But with the cameras that was an organizational type of cheating. You are never going to stop individual cheating but something as widespread as using the home cameras to relay info is just taking cheating to a whole new level.

In comment 14813841 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is pretty damn stark. Players all over the league were taking PED's. Basically a large % of players were cheating (not to the equivalent of use in the NFL, but pretty broad) The sign stealing is a coordinated effort using technology that benefits one group of players. Also, PED use was an individual choice. The sign stealing was organizational.

So, because more people were doing PEDs, the sign stealing is worse?

Reality, I think for the outrage by the players does have to do somewhat with the fact that most everybody was doing PEDs. Similarly, most players steal, or try to steal signs. I think the outrage against the Astros (and other teams accused) is that they didn't think of it too.

The outrage by the players is so disingenuous in my opinion. The same players outraged at the Astros have taken or been teammates with those who have used PEDs, stole signs, used pine tar, etc.

In comment 14813843 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

The fallout to the individual, especially the early guys you mentioned who got caught first (i would add McGwire to that list) was huge. But the Red Sox titles were fueled by Ramirez and Ortiz, two known users. I mean, I think performance enhancing drugs is worse than sign stealing because at its root, you make players choose, especially marginal ones, their health or their livelihood.

In comment 14813842 Chris684 said:

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1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

The victims were the Yankees and the Dodgers? Let's not forget that while the Astros are at the forefront, the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well, and the Red Sox fired their manager over it.

In comment 14813842 Chris684 said:

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1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

Couldn't disagree more.

1) This has nothing to do with "Cancel Culture" or the times we live in. When a TEAM, not an individual, is found to be cheating, and they win AL pennants and an MLB championship in part because of that cheating, then they will always pay a harsh price in the court of public opinion.

2) This is a MLB cheating scandal. The outrage is over the cheating itself. It's not about the teams that were affected.

In comment 14813849 KDavies said:

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In comment 14813842 Chris684 said: Quote: 1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example. The victims were the Yankees and the Dodgers? Let's not forget that while the Astros are at the forefront, the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well, and the Red Sox fired their manager over it.

I agree with you, believe me.

I’m just saying what I’ve seen.

this take:

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Reality, I think for the outrage by the players does have to do somewhat with the fact that most everybody was doing PEDs. Similarly, most players steal, or try to steal signs. I think the outrage against the Astros (and other teams accused) is that they didn't think of it too.

sign stealing is like cracking a code. It's like looking for a pitcher to tip a pitch. It's a skill. And believe it or not, some guys I played with didn't want to know the signs. But there is a difference between doing it while on base and having a camera signal it through an advance notification method. The fact that this difference has to be pointed out is sort of asinine.

When cheating crosses the line to the use of technology and organizationally sanctioned - it will always raise the level of scrutiny and it will always be looked at with disdain. What if teams use technology to signal a pitcher tipping his pitches? A trained eye can pick that out - but if it goes to the next level - it is something completely different.

It's trying to equate finding a $20 bill on the ground with walking away with a few hundred thousand if you stumble upon a crashed Brinks truck.

cheating is cheating, though having sign stealing coordinated with electronics and a scheme is maybe worse because it was more coordinated cheating but it's also preventable by changing your signs.

nothing prevents the disadvantage you as a clean player possibly faced when facing a player using PED's

Not sure if I was an MLB player I'd feel any better if my team lost a meaningful series or championship to a team stealing signs vs a bunch of stars on PEDs. I'd feel all the winners were tainted and should have an asterisk.

Also, sign stealing with the electronics was mostly (fully?) a home field thing, the advantage from PED's were not geographically restricted.

player reaction tells you what you need to know... PED's are not viewed in the same light (nor should they be). The reaction from fans/players on the Giants would be VASTLY different If the Giants lost the super bowl because players on the opposing team were using PED's vs. the other team knowing the Giants entire playbook and what plays were being called.

In comment 14813860 DanMetroMan said:

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player reaction tells you what you need to know... PED's are not viewed in the same light (nor should they be). The reaction from fans/players on the Giants would be VASTLY different If the Giants lost the super bowl because players on the opposing team were using PED's vs. the other team knowing the Giants entire playbook and what plays were being called.

Hence the outrage over SpyGate.........

In comment 14813849 KDavies said:

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the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well

By whom were they accused of what, exactly? Don't tell me you're going to either talk about that bullpen phone story or cite some anonymous Twitter bullshit. Be specific.

Mets fans never cease being pathetic.

i just can't quite put my finger on the correct articulation of it.

it's like a conversation i was having last week at a hotel bar with some colleagues. my penchant for looking up people we do business with online and getting their details was brought up and someone jokingly said it was creepy and that it was no different than taking binoculars and looking into someone's home. the correct response which i made was that they are wholly different - there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy within your own home, none exists on the internet .

there is something similar about the difference to be said here too.

i think it is mainly that PED affects you - sign stealing is not just making you better, it directly diminishing your opponent.

perhaps someone can flesh that out better.

Multiple players on every team were not using a high-def video monitor in the dugout tunnel to steal signs. It's as simple as that.

the individual vs. institutional/organization difference.

PED use is rampant in sports. There's probably not a single clean highly competitive cyclist out there. But cheating that is organizational has always taken the lumps. The Black Sox scandal for instance.

But even staying on the PED train. Look at Olympic athletes. Clean track and field people is an oxymoron. But if you are East Germany or Russia and pump people with drugs as an institution? The hammer comes down.

In comment 14813867 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14813849 KDavies said: Quote: the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well By whom were they accused of what, exactly? Don't tell me you're going to either talk about that bullpen phone story or cite some anonymous Twitter bullshit. Be specific. Mets fans never cease being pathetic.

See the link below, but keep with the ad hominem attacks. So, the ringleaders included Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran with the Astros. Cora was doing it with the Red Sox after the Astros, and lost his job.

Beltran was a player with the Yankees for a few years prior to his second stint with the Astros, and was a special assistant with the Yankees after the stint with the Astros.

Yet, we are supposed to believe that Beltran only did this with the Astros, and never did it with the Yankees, and wasn't planning on doing it with the Mets? Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that one.

https://sodomojo.com/2020/01/13/former-mariners-first-baseman-logan-morrison-claims-astros-cheating-goes-back-2014/

wasn't there allegations that runners on second base were tipping batters to signs based on how they led off second?

Also, how about spitballs? Gaylord Perry? There were several prominent pitchers who basically celebrated their scuffing balls, putting vaseline on balls, etc.

Everyone tries to get an edge...

However, the fact that the sign stealing was so indelibly coordinated to include receptor machines on players???

That is what makes it bad.

Like Belichek filming super bowl practices or signs vs. something like Brady Ball-Gate.

Between an individual player taking PEDs and TEAM-sponsored cheating using electronic surveliance to steal signs.

Years ago MLB players could secretly take PEDs to enhance their individual performance. Even though MLB knew this was happening at the time, per the collective bargaining agreement with the players union, testing of players was not allowed. So it couldn't be proven.

The first Year that PED testing was allowed (early 2000s?) it was supposed to be a "secret testing" whereby if more that 5% of the players tested positive then MLB would have the right to test players on an ongoing basis.

During that initial secret test, about 150 MLB players tested positive. That's an average of 5 per team, making it likely that every MLB team had at least one cheater on their roster during the "steriods era".

That means it's impossible to point to any one team and suggest that they didn't deserve to be champions. But when a TEAM cheats as an organization, and the GM, MGR and ALL the players on the team know about it, that is profoundly different than an individual player taking PEDs.

put it this way, players have friends on opposing teams (even rival teams) and yet... when have we ever heard players calling out rivals for using PED's? You don't and outside of a few rare cases you very rarely hear players even speak out against the "idea" of PED's or the acceptance of PED's in sports. Players know, word gets around, they see each other in the gym etc and yet you never, ever see anything reaching this level of ire. It's different, it just is.

people talk about PED's, I'd caution them that they spend time on a forum where our own team and the league they play in has 90% of position players taking PED's. And laughably, some kickers and punters too.

Because every team had guys using PED's. That is the main difference.

In comment 14813877 GiantBlue said:

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wasn't there allegations that runners on second base were tipping batters to signs based on how they led off second? Also, how about spitballs? Gaylord Perry? There were several prominent pitchers who basically celebrated their scuffing balls, putting vaseline on balls, etc. Everyone tries to get an edge... However, the fact that the sign stealing was so indelibly coordinated to include receptor machines on players??? That is what makes it bad. Like Belichek filming super bowl practices or signs vs. something like Brady Ball-Gate.

I think the % of fans or players who have an issue with sign stealing via runners on base relaying signs etc is very, very, very low. That's part of the game. NFL teams pick up players for a week just to get an upper hand on a playbook.

forces players to take PED's as a term of their employment, then you might have a correlation.

it isn’t a systematic. What the astros and Sox did requires many levels of personnel to pull off. And knowing a pitch is far more impactful than getting stronger or trying to recover from injury quicker.

In comment 14813882 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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people talk about PED's, I'd caution them that they spend time on a forum where our own team and the league they play in has 90% of position players taking PED's. And laughably, some kickers and punters too.

Yup. If it were revealed Eli, Tuck etc were using PED's during out SB runs the reaction would be "yeah but every team had players using PED's".

The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it.

He claims "first hand information" on three teams he's never played for. Additionally, he has an established track record of being a bitter, whiny bitch - see his crybaby act when he wasn't picked for the home run derby.

Did anyone ever corroborate Morrison's claim? Since he never played for any of those teams, what is the source of his "first hand information"? Did anyone else ever react to his claim by saying that they always suspected the Yankees or Dodgers were doing this, the way many players have said about the Astros? Was a complaint ever filed by another team like the one the Athletics filed with MLB late this season about the Astros?

It went nowhere because there was nothing to it but the ramblings of Logan Morrison. Go ahead and play the guilt by association game with Beltran. No one but bitter-ass Mets fans believes it, but you do you.

They brought up a great point about comparing the two. You see all this outrage against the Astros by everyone in the media including former/current players.

The PED situation, you didn't hear shit from the players which makes you think that there was a lot more people involved that never got caught.

than individual vs. team or widespread vs limited.

Putting a substance into one's body to gain a going-in physical advantage is bad. But it doesn't completely destroy my ability as a fan to consume the competition taking place on the field. The inputs were altered, and it certainly had an impact on the outputs, but the competition wasn't destroyed. The thesis of the game wasn't touched. (To be clear -- I'm still strongly against it. And I'm still annoyed that it happened and that it persisted for as long as it did. And as a Yankee fan, I'm still disappointed/embarrassed in the guys that were shown to have done it.)

Using technology within the field of play during a game is completely different in my mind. The thought of makes me completely disinterested in watching that competition or caring about its results. It's just a direct fucking over of one's opponent and anyone else who's invested their time and money in giving a fuck about the game.

It's completely different, and the equating of the two (primarily by Astros fans) is one of the absolute weakest arguments I've heard on the topic.

In comment 14813894 k2tampa said:

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The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it.

Baseball players were granted immunity. Of course, they weren't punished. That is literally what immunity is. Now, terms of immunity generally include a clause that blows the deal up if there is lying on the part of the person granted immunity. So, the Astros players really should just shut their mouths about it.

In comment 14813843 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

Yup and I believe those guys took them to keep up with the players trying to reach their levels of greatness.

Those guys were always better than most everyone else but the PED's started to close the gap a bit, and I've always felt Bonds, Clemens and ARod took them in order to stay at a level above as they always had been.

Doesn't absolve them but I don't believe they needed them to be among the best of their era.

In comment 14813881 DanMetroMan said:

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put it this way, players have friends on opposing teams (even rival teams) and yet... when have we ever heard players calling out rivals for using PED's? You don't and outside of a few rare cases you very rarely hear players even speak out against the "idea" of PED's or the acceptance of PED's in sports. Players know, word gets around, they see each other in the gym etc and yet you never, ever see anything reaching this level of ire. It's different, it just is.

Exactly, Dan. The league-wide outrage for this is unprecedented. That alone is a glaring indicator that this is not normal, not widespread, and not viewed mildly by the players themselves.

Just in comparison - remember when Michael Pineda was caught with pine tar? Even the Red Sox were almost embarrassed to bring it up to the umps. That was because pine tar use is fairly unremarkable in MLB, and Pineda was only being accused because he was so damned blatant and obvious about it.

history because of what is most recent.

there were PLENTY of players who came out publicly against PED use. Also, MLB did a far better job of containing the PED situation despite the Mitchell report and even stuff like Juiced because they didn't test for it and when they did and 103 players failed the test they refused to publish the names.

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Roy Halladay @RoyHalladay When you use PEDs you admit your not good enough to compete fairly! Our nations past time should have higher standards! No Clemens no Bonds! 2:53 AM · Jan 6, 2016·Twitter for iPhone

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... "To me, personally, I think you should be out of the game if you get caught," Trout said Monday on WFAN radio. "It takes away from the guys that are working hard every day and doing it all natural." Trout seemed to be taking a subtle shot at Rodriguez, the lone player linked to the Biogenesis drug scandal who appealed his punishment. Twelve other players linked to the case received 50-game suspensions on the same day as A-Rod's discipline, but did not contest. Former NL MVP Ryan Braun earlier accepted a 65-game ban. Trout's comments are the latest salvo from a growing group of former and current players frustrated by the PED issue and its impact on America's pastime. Friday, Tigers All-Star pitcher Max Scherzer told the Daily News that he thinks "the overwhelming theme among players is to have stiffer penalties" for drug cheats, although he wouldn't elaborate. "We're looking – as a union – to explore more avenues to get rid of the loopholes within the Joint Drug Agreement," Scherzer said. "The worst thing to do is negotiate through the media. This is actually a real thing that's on the bargaining table that will be discussed at great lengths with MLB and the Players Association." ...

In comment 14813914 pjcas18 said:

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history because of what is most recent. there were PLENTY of players who came out publicly against PED use. Also, MLB did a far better job of containing the PED situation despite the Mitchell report and even stuff like Juiced because they didn't test for it and when they did and 103 players failed the test they refused to publish the names. Quote: Roy Halladay @RoyHalladay When you use PEDs you admit your not good enough to compete fairly! Our nations past time should have higher standards! No Clemens no Bonds! 2:53 AM · Jan 6, 2016·Twitter for iPhone Quote: ... "To me, personally, I think you should be out of the game if you get caught," Trout said Monday on WFAN radio. "It takes away from the guys that are working hard every day and doing it all natural." Trout seemed to be taking a subtle shot at Rodriguez, the lone player linked to the Biogenesis drug scandal who appealed his punishment. Twelve other players linked to the case received 50-game suspensions on the same day as A-Rod's discipline, but did not contest. Former NL MVP Ryan Braun earlier accepted a 65-game ban. Trout's comments are the latest salvo from a growing group of former and current players frustrated by the PED issue and its impact on America's pastime. Friday, Tigers All-Star pitcher Max Scherzer told the Daily News that he thinks "the overwhelming theme among players is to have stiffer penalties" for drug cheats, although he wouldn't elaborate. "We're looking – as a union – to explore more avenues to get rid of the loopholes within the Joint Drug Agreement," Scherzer said. "The worst thing to do is negotiate through the media. This is actually a real thing that's on the bargaining table that will be discussed at great lengths with MLB and the Players Association." ...

Exactly. There was a ton of outrage by players and former players against PED users.

Most of the comments I can recall regarding PEDs were couched in generalities. Rarely would you see a player calling out individual players specifically, or as a team.

In comment 14813897 Greg from LI said:

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He claims "first hand information" on three teams he's never played for. Additionally, he has an established track record of being a bitter, whiny bitch - see his crybaby act when he wasn't picked for the home run derby. Did anyone ever corroborate Morrison's claim? Since he never played for any of those teams, what is the source of his "first hand information"? Did anyone else ever react to his claim by saying that they always suspected the Yankees or Dodgers were doing this, the way many players have said about the Astros? Was a complaint ever filed by another team like the one the Athletics filed with MLB late this season about the Astros? It went nowhere because there was nothing to it but the ramblings of Logan Morrison. Go ahead and play the guilt by association game with Beltran. No one but bitter-ass Mets fans believes it, but you do you.

Logan Morrison? Haha. People actually take what this guy says seriously? He just referred to Alex Cora as Joey Cora in that ridiculous rant. And as you said, he’s never played for any of those teams so he clearly also has no idea what “first hand knowledge” means.

You and I have both said this before, but if the Yankees were stealing signs, they absolutely suck at it. They strikeout at record rates and often look like they’ve never seen a breaking ball in their lives. The Astros meanwhile went from a strikeout heavy team to a team that rarely struck out all in one season. The turn around in strike out rate was the biggest leap in baseball history.

People are soooo desperate to bring the Yankees into this. It’s comical, really

and Greg. The outrage is over the unlevel playing field.

When a lot of players were using amphetamines, it leveled it out. when players were using PED's, it leveled out. Even things like sign stealing while on base or seeing a pitcher tip a pitch is an individual skill to decipher. It isn't literally a media center with big screen TV's, headphones, and a sophisticated notification device using buzzers and wires.

Again - I'm really surprised this has to be explained to some people on this thread.

I believe that PEDs were way worse that this sigh stealing episode. With PEDs, you had players physically changing their body in order to gain an advantage. Putting harmful, illegal drugs in their body. Many players involved across decades that is clearly still happening to a degree. World Series titles were affected. Records were broken. And regardless of what you want to "remember" there was plenty of ire and vitriol from players/media/fans.

The sign stealing is obviously still bad...but from what we know, it's only been going on a short time. And if you think that the Astros were the only team doing this, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have to even wonder how much this even helped the Astros. Especially if this was an open secret that many believe. I could also make a case that this worked against them if other teams knew and changed their signs. With such an advantage, you'd think that they would have a team full of .400/.500 hitters.

The mob mentality among MLB players has certainly gained steam. It gives players a sense that they had something stolen from them - which is a somewhat valid case. But I do find it funny listening to Yankee fans piss and moan on the radio every day stating that the Yankees would have 3 or 4 more championships if it weren't for the Astros cheating. Yeah - it doesn't work that way lol.

In comment 14813924 Greg from LI said:

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Most of the comments I can recall regarding PEDs were couched in generalities. Rarely would you see a player calling out individual players specifically, or as a team.

But don't you think that's at least partially because MLB contained it?

Google search it, bleacher report has a list of the 103 names. If that came out "officially" there would likely be more direct and public animosity. IMO.

Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.

individually or organizationally I wouldn't care. And I doubt professional baseball players would either.

this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs.

other players I recall speaking out against PED use other than the ones mentioned include Kenny Lofton, Joe Morgan, Rick Porcello, Nick Markakis, Verlander (ironically).

hard-pressed to say World Series titles were impacted by PED use. The % of players using was very high.

Again -there is a lot of ignorance about PED's. Why don't we have this outrage in the NFL?? The PED use is off the charts. And it was that way in MLB too.

I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.

In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs.

Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only.

In comment 14813929 PhiPsi125 said:

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I believe that PEDs were way worse that this sigh stealing episode. With PEDs, you had players physically changing their body in order to gain an advantage. Putting harmful, illegal drugs in their body. Many players involved across decades that is clearly still happening to a degree. World Series titles were affected. Records were broken. And regardless of what you want to "remember" there was plenty of ire and vitriol from players/media/fans. The sign stealing is obviously still bad...but from what we know, it's only been going on a short time. And if you think that the Astros were the only team doing this, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have to even wonder how much this even helped the Astros. Especially if this was an open secret that many believe. I could also make a case that this worked against them if other teams knew and changed their signs. With such an advantage, you'd think that they would have a team full of .400/.500 hitters. The mob mentality among MLB players has certainly gained steam. It gives players a sense that they had something stolen from them - which is a somewhat valid case. But I do find it funny listening to Yankee fans piss and moan on the radio every day stating that the Yankees would have 3 or 4 more championships if it weren't for the Astros cheating. Yeah - it doesn't work that way lol.

I’d LOVE to see your reaction if the Mets lost to the Nationals and Braves in the play the past 3 seasons and then both teams were found to have cheated...something tells me your reaction would be a bit different. And it would be fantastic

In comment 14813941 KDavies said:

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In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs. Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only.

Every fucking thread you bring it up.

But then again - you don't sound too bright, so I can see why you repeatedly do it.

In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said:

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Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.

That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent.

I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.

in the organization were in the know and did nothing to stop it. Hinch actually saw the monitor that they were using. Who knows just how many higher-ups in the Astro's organization knew about this and actually *saw* evidence of this taking place.

I'm pleased that pretty much every team in the league is outraged over this much more so than PED's or anything else. It's an appropriate reaction.

In comment 14813947 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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In comment 14813941 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs. Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only. Every fucking thread you bring it up. But then again - you don't sound too bright, so I can see why you repeatedly do it.

Because, as this whole thread points out, the hypocrisy surrounding the outrage towards the Astros is astounding. Fans and players of other teams have players on their team who use pine tar, PEDs, etc. There have been other teams implicated in this mess, including the Red Sox, Dodgers, and Yankees. But yeah, let's stone the Astros in the public square, and act like they are the only team that has ever cheated.

Think about what we've learned about the Astros' organizational culture. The active support of the organization is necessary for this kind of thing to succeed.

Also, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but it seems pretty obvious that Manfred was consciously choosing to make Beltran and Cora the main scapegoats for this thing as an avenue to attempt to lessen the blame on active players. Carlos Beltran didn't force the Astros at gunpoint to set this system up. Neither did Alex Cora, for that matter. This was an organizational decision from Luhnow on down, if not Crane himself. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I don't buy his babe-in-the-woods routine for a second.

makes me even happier. What a fantastic few weeks. And the best news is this story isn't going anywhere. Love it.

In comment 14813940 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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hard-pressed to say World Series titles were impacted by PED use. The % of players using was very high. Again -there is a lot of ignorance about PED's. Why don't we have this outrage in the NFL?? The PED use is off the charts. And it was that way in MLB too. I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.

Football does not place the same historical importance on individual vs individual that baseball does.

While baseball is a team sport in many regards team success is largely based on individual battles isolated to their impact more than almost any other sport, it's so steeped in history, records, and individual achievements that in some cases even overshadow the game PEDs mean more than some other sports.

In comment 14813900 bigbluehoya said:

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than individual vs. team or widespread vs limited. Putting a substance into one's body to gain a going-in physical advantage is bad. But it doesn't completely destroy my ability as a fan to consume the competition taking place on the field. The inputs were altered, and it certainly had an impact on the outputs, but the competition wasn't destroyed. The thesis of the game wasn't touched. (To be clear -- I'm still strongly against it. And I'm still annoyed that it happened and that it persisted for as long as it did. And as a Yankee fan, I'm still disappointed/embarrassed in the guys that were shown to have done it.) Using technology within the field of play during a game is completely different in my mind. The thought of makes me completely disinterested in watching that competition or caring about its results. It's just a direct fucking over of one's opponent and anyone else who's invested their time and money in giving a fuck about the game. It's completely different, and the equating of the two (primarily by Astros fans) is one of the absolute weakest arguments I've heard on the topic.

well said. this is getting closer at what the heart of the issue is. i still think we're missing the precise nailing of it but this is in the right direction.

you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread?

The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology.

Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.

Again - that story you linked was a month ago. Has anything come to light since then to back up his claims?

Nope.

the only reason the Astros were punished so severely is because other teams had been doing similar things, and MLB warned all the teams that punishment would be far more severe for other teams being caught in the future

In comment 14813948 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said: Quote: Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters. That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent. I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.

And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users.

This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse.

Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.

tilted the playing field so dramatically, Bonds should have a bunch of rings...

In comment 14813902 KDavies said:

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In comment 14813894 k2tampa said: Quote: The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it. Baseball players were granted immunity. Of course, they weren't punished. That is literally what immunity is. Now, terms of immunity generally include a clause that blows the deal up if there is lying on the part of the person granted immunity. So, the Astros players really should just shut their mouths about it.

Correct, they weren't punished because they had immunity. But that is why people and other players are so upset about this versus steroids. They basically got away with cheating with no repercussions. There is now no disincentive for others not to cheat as a team.

In comment 14813966 KDavies said:

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the only reason the Astros were punished so severely is because other teams had been doing similar things, and MLB warned all the teams that punishment would be far more severe for other teams being caught in the future

Have you seen guys like Bellinger and Judge destroy the Astros recently? Do they sound like guys that would be worry about their teams being found guilty of the same things the Astros were doing? There’s only one guy that has defended the Astros and that’s JD Martinez. And I wonder why that is?

In comment 14813962 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread? The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology. Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.

Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not.

In comment 14813940 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.

you're probably right about this. well that and slandering the shit out of everyone who insinuated otherwise

In comment 14813974 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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tilted the playing field so dramatically, Bonds should have a bunch of rings...

This isn't basketball. One player out of 25 isn't going to propel a team to championships. By that measure, why doesn't Trout have a bunch of rings?

Poor reasoning. And let's not act like the Astros weren't already an uber talented team all around.

But you've been so deliberately obtuse about this Astros thing from the very beginning that it's almost impossible not to believe that you're trolling.

If you really can't see the difference (and cause for player outrage) between a runner at second attempting to steal signs and a team using a dedicated camera hooked up to a high definition video monitor, then there's no point to further discussion.

In comment 14813974 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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tilted the playing field so dramatically, Bonds should have a bunch of rings...

So it's only impactful or cheating if it leads to rings?

What if it just helped make him the all-time HR leader in MLB history and single season HR king?

no big deal, everyone else was doing it so the playing field was level?

Isn't it possible it tilted the playing field dramatically in the 1 on 1 battles?

In comment 14813974 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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tilted the playing field so dramatically, Bonds should have a bunch of rings...

That is a ridiculous comment. You don't think PEDs improved Bonds' performance? When has one hitter in baseball ever carried a team on his back to the World Series? It's not basketball, where a single player has a huge impact on the game, or even football with the impact of the QB.

The best player in the game is Trout. His teams always suck.

can go down so many paths, none of which really matter. The Astros cheated to a level beyond what other teams were doing, or at least were the only ones to get caught. They are the scapegoat baseball needed to clean up the game.
This year should be interesting. I have a feeling anti-juiced balls and 8,000 cheating accusations are going to make baseball unbearable.

....why did guys like Jeremy Giambi and Bobby Estalella still suck despite being loaded with roids?

In comment 14813996 Greg from LI said:

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....why did guys like Jeremy Giambi and Bobby Estalella still suck despite being loaded with roids?

why was Beltran's 2017 post-season batting average .150 and OPS sub .500 if sign stealing was such a game changer?

In comment 14813996 Greg from LI said:

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....why did guys like Jeremy Giambi and Bobby Estalella still suck despite being loaded with roids?

By that logic, if the Astros sign-stealing was such a huge advantage, why did Jake Marisnick and Tony Kemp hit like shit?

In comment 14813985 MM_in_NYC said:

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In comment 14813940 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same. you're probably right about this. well that and slandering the shit out of everyone who insinuated otherwise

The sports world is sooo funny about this and I think a lot of it is because of the general cluelessness of the general public about PEDs. The amount of dumb crap I hear them that has been peddled as truth since the 80s is unbelievable. Newsflash, almost everyone in the NFL is on some sort of PEDs. Our own Lorenzo Carter went ham last offseason with them. Testosterone is essentially legal in the NFL, as long as you stay off the fertility drugs, looking at you Mr. Tate.

It's tough because even if you draw up some guidelines there are always going to be looking for an edge. SImilar to this Astros cheating scandal, the rest of the MLB is essentially taking the prescribed amount of testosterone, while the Stros were loading up on Ostarine, Tren, and Anavar.

has to be the existence of twitter right? If twitter existed in 2000 I think it's safe to say Clemens would have had 10 burner accounts which he used to threaten death upon anyone who insinuated his use of roids.

For another thing, take a guess, just one guess, which season was the best of Marisnick's career by a wide margin.

In comment 14813983 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 14813962 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread? The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology. Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here. Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not.

Let's just shortcut this to the full reductionist take that you're peddling here.

1) because a bunch of players in the past did steroids, all current players and fans of teams who had cheaters (i.e. all teams) are also cheaters, and absolutely cannot be upset with or comment on a new, different, and more direct type of cheating impacting the sport.

2) in fact, nobody in general can get upset about cheating in today's game, because it's baseball. There were once a whole bunch of cheaters who did steroid in the sport, so any other new cheating is to be expected/tolerated.

You're either a bigtime troll or you're pretty fucking stupid.

In comment 14814011 bigbluehoya said:

Quote:

In comment 14813983 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 14813962 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread? The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology. Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here. Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not. Let's just shortcut this to the full reductionist take that you're peddling here. 1) because a bunch of players in the past did steroids, all current players and fans of teams who had cheaters (i.e. all teams) are also cheaters, and absolutely cannot be upset with or comment on a new, different, and more direct type of cheating impacting the sport. 2) in fact, nobody in general can get upset about cheating in today's game, because it's baseball. There were once a whole bunch of cheaters who did steroid in the sport, so any other new cheating is to be expected/tolerated. You're either a bigtime troll or you're pretty fucking stupid.

Or I see the hypocrisy? There is still plenty of PEDs in the sport. Still players getting caught. The level of vitriol leveled at the Astros is comical. They got caught. The organization responsible got punished. Just like with PEDs. Those responsible who have been caught have gotten punished.

If I am rooting for a team that had Bonds, or Cano, or A-Rod, I'd feel pretty darn hypocritical throwing stones at another team for getting caught cheating.

In comment 14814011 bigbluehoya said:

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You're either a bigtime troll or you're pretty fucking stupid.

January 2020 registration, so, yeah, troll

In comment 14813969 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14813948 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said: Quote: Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters. That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent. I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did. And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users. This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse. Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.

there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same.

drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree.

In comment 14814020 MM_in_NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 14813969 pjcas18 said: Quote: In comment 14813948 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said: Quote: Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters. That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent. I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did. And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users. This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse. Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it. there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same. drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree.

PEDs have kept some of the greatest players out of the HOF. As much as some people seem to be minimizing it, it's a pretty serious form of cheating.

In comment 14814025 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 14814020 MM_in_NYC said: And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users. This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse. Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it. there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same. drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree. PEDs have kept some of the greatest players out of the HOF. As much as some people seem to be minimizing it, it's a pretty serious form of cheating.

sure. not saying otherwise. but other forms are much worse.

Some fans believe that the PED scandal was worse than the sign stealing scandal. And regardless of what your OPINION may be, it's a valid argument.

Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.

Glad to see things haven't changed.

In comment 14814029 PhiPsi125 said:

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Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.

Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this.

So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees.

In comment 14814029 PhiPsi125 said:

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Some fans believe that the PED scandal was worse than the sign stealing scandal. And regardless of what your OPINION may be, it's a valid argument. Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid. Glad to see things haven't changed.

December 2006. Definite troll...

In comment 14814031 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14814029 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid. Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this. So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees.

Lol, not sure what Met's fans have to be bitter about. But listen, Yankee players and Yankee fans have been the loudest about this whole issue so it's going to invite opposing views.

And I don't see Mets fans "shrugging this off". The discussion is how fans view this comparative to the PED scandal - which is a completely valid conversation.

Not sure why everyone that disagrees with you guys needs to get hit with a barrage of insults, but that just seems to be your way.

In comment 14814037 PhiPsi125 said:

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Yankee players and Yankee fans have been the loudest about this whole issue so it's going to invite opposing views.

I'd say Dodger players have been more outspoken than Yankee players, for what it's worth. The strongest statement I've seen from anyone was Cody Bellinger's.

In comment 14814037 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814031 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 14814029 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid. Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this. So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees. Lol, not sure what Met's fans have to be bitter about. But listen, Yankee players and Yankee fans have been the loudest about this whole issue so it's going to invite opposing views. And I don't see Mets fans "shrugging this off". The discussion is how fans view this comparative to the PED scandal - which is a completely valid conversation. Not sure why everyone that disagrees with you guys needs to get hit with a barrage of insults, but that just seems to be your way.

Mets fans ARE bitter about their own team's ownership. That is about it.

stopped short to quote "Seinfeld"

Quote:

If I am rooting for a team that had Bonds, or Cano, or A-Rod, I'd feel pretty darn hypocritical throwing stones at another team for getting caught cheating.

Using your logic, being hypocritical would be rooting for any team if you felt PED use was such a major offense. Don't limit it to a couple names.

And a newsflash here - every team still has multiple PED users on it.

In comment 14814050 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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stopped short to quote "Seinfeld" Quote: If I am rooting for a team that had Bonds, or Cano, or A-Rod, I'd feel pretty darn hypocritical throwing stones at another team for getting caught cheating. Using your logic, being hypocritical would be rooting for any team if you felt PED use was such a major offense. Don't limit it to a couple names. And a newsflash here - every team still has multiple PED users on it.

I am well aware every team still has multiple PED users on it. That is kind of the whole point that has been stated multiple times: players and fans of teams with cheaters on them are getting furious at another team for cheating.

were on steroids during the 09' WS? What about Cliff Lee?

Odds are 3 of the 4 were. And even if it was just one of the four isn't that the point - someone definitely was?

PED's isn't in the same league as the sign stealing. Ask any player what would help them more, be stronger or know the pitch being thrown at them. The answer is obvious, you'd be lying if you said otherwise.

so I guess the only thing to do is stop watching?

The playing field with PED's is leveled at this point. If a ton of players are on it and no one is doing anything about it, then it just is. I don't like it either but it seems infinitely more level than 2 rogue teams knowing the pitches being thrown at them.

There are varying degrees of cheating here. Up to you and your moral compass, but they just aren't the same (if that's important to you).

“Everybody was doing it. They just got caught. This is all dumb. Yankees used PEDs. What happened to them and their championships?”

You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.

have a no line can be crossed POV, or an every line can be crossed POV.

Both takes are pretty ignorant.

The PED discussion is worthwhile because the assumptions made by those screaming it is cheating is that it was just some rogue guys. I will reiterate that you follow a sport with 90% PED usage and have no outrage over it.

The discussion here isn't about cheating or gaining an advantage. It is because the sign stealing was done using technology and with full knowledge of the organization.

If you think there is no difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. having it piped in through wires, video and buzzers, I don't really know what to say. Seems like you are just being obstinate for the fuck of it or as alluded to above - because you're a troll.

“Everybody was doing it. They just got caught. This is all dumb. Yankees used PEDs. What happened to them and their championships?”

You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.

In comment 14814071 GMAN4LIFE said:

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“Everybody was doing it. They just got caught. This is all dumb. Yankees used PEDs. What happened to them and their championships?” You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.

But everyone wasn't doing it. Shitty argument. Astros players used and are using PED's now, that we can agree on.

if this was already posted:

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“I don’t think the punishments were harsh enough player-wise,” Stanton said before the second full-squad workout was held at Steinbrenner Field. “At the end of the day, it gives more incentive to (cheat).” Stanton wasn’t with the Yankees in 2017 when the Astros beat them in Game 7 of the ALCS and followed that by copping a World Series title by beating the Dodgers.“They did their investigation and it was clear cut that they cheated that year, which means it should be taken away,” Stanton said. “If you cheat in another way (failing a drug test), you can’t even be in the playoffs.” “If I knew what was coming in ’17, I probably would have hit 80 home runs.” Stanton hit 59 homers, drove in 132 runs and posted an OPS of 1.007 in 2017 and was named the NL MVP with the Marlins.

Giancarlo Stanton full of Astros hate, baseball fears: ‘More incentive’ to cheat again - ( New Window )

In comment 14814075 GMAN4LIFE said:

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“Everybody was doing it. They just got caught. This is all dumb. Yankees used PEDs. What happened to them and their championships?” You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.

they don't. we have a large office in houston and my good buddy is/was a major astros fan. he and many of them are extremely disappointed in the team and are pulling back their support until they feel better about things, if they do. in fact, his little daughter asked him out of the blue the other day, "are we cheaters, daddy" and he at first had no idea what she was talking about, and then once he figured it out didn't even know what to say - he basically said the team did something and it doesn't mean you did anything wrong.

which i doubt anyone will do.

pissed makes what the Astros did more egregious is kind of stupid. I vividly remember players being asked about PED use and them getting angry and defensive about it... then they got caught.

In comment 14814074 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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have a no line can be crossed POV, or an every line can be crossed POV. Both takes are pretty ignorant. The PED discussion is worthwhile because the assumptions made by those screaming it is cheating is that it was just some rogue guys. I will reiterate that you follow a sport with 90% PED usage and have no outrage over it. The discussion here isn't about cheating or gaining an advantage. It is because the sign stealing was done using technology and with full knowledge of the organization. If you think there is no difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. having it piped in through wires, video and buzzers, I don't really know what to say. Seems like you are just being obstinate for the fuck of it or as alluded to above - because you're a troll.

Sure, there's a difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. what the Astros did. Just as there's a difference between working out to get stronger, etc. vs. taking PEDs. In each example, there is an allowed method and a disallowed method that will be punished if caught.

Sorry, if all you have to do is resort to name-calling. It's pretty bizarre that people are so accepting of one form of cheating that gets severely punished, while they lose their shit over another.

I just shrug my shoulders at the whole thing. I love baseball and will continue to watch baseball. I do that with an understanding that pro athletes have and will continue to break the rules to gain a competitive advantage.

if you just shrugged your shoulders, you wouldn't use every one of these threads to say that Yankees and Dodgers have been accused of cheating too.

Seems you invest quite a bit of time in these discussions that you supposedly don't give a fuck about.

5mph over speed limit and 50mps. This black and white thinking I will never understand. Its like a lof of the guys I knew in the military or the police, if you are breaking the law you are breaking the law.

what exactly is your solution then. Ignore it or just don't watch it at all?

if you hate Arod for cheating - fine. But if you want to taint the 09' World Series you are going to need to prove to me Utley and Co weren't roiding.

You can't and you won't.

than PEDs in my opinion because it is organized institutional cheating and required a scheme and a coordinated effort.

More than that, I think that the high-tech sign-stealing had a greater impact than PEDs. I still think the PED effect is over-stated on offense and that like last year, the balls were juiced during the steroid era as well.

But knowing what pitch is coming? That's something else entirely.

A good hitter taking steroids who recovers better and is a little stronger will be a better hitter. But strength doesn't totally correlate with hitting ability. There are still so many other factors at play.

The hardest part of hitting in baseball is pitch recognition and recognition in time to be able to track the ball and hit it.

Hitting with PEDs is a boost. Knowing what pitch is coming is a superpower.

If you were a DB in football, and before a game you could either take a pill that made you .1 seconds faster to cover a receiver, or have knowledge of exactly the route the WR was going to run on each play, which would you rather have?

I would bet any amount of money the DB would rather know the route he has to cover.

In poker, would you rather a pill that improved your memory, or have actual information about some of the hole cards the other players had?

If you were a goalkeeper on a PK, would you rather take a pill to be quicker/rangier, or would you rather know before the shot which direction the player was kicking the ball?

In comment 14814161 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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than PEDs in my opinion because it is organized institutional cheating and required a scheme and a coordinated effort. More than that, I think that the high-tech sign-stealing had a greater impact than PEDs. I still think the PED effect is over-stated on offense and that like last year, the balls were juiced during the steroid era as well. But knowing what pitch is coming? That's something else entirely. A good hitter taking steroids who recovers better and is a little stronger will be a better hitter. But strength doesn't totally correlate with hitting ability. There are still so many other factors at play. The hardest part of hitting in baseball is pitch recognition and recognition in time to be able to track the ball and hit it. Hitting with PEDs is a boost. Knowing what pitch is coming is a superpower. If you were a DB in football, and before a game you could either take a pill that made you .1 seconds faster to cover a receiver, or have knowledge of exactly the route the WR was going to run on each play, which would you rather have? I would bet any amount of money the DB would rather know the route he has to cover. In poker, would you rather a pill that improved your memory, or have actual information about some of the hole cards the other players had? If you were a goalkeeper on a PK, would you rather take a pill to be quicker/rangier, or would you rather know before the shot which direction the player was kicking the ball?

Excellent perspectives.

There are dozens of threads wtih thousands of posts about this subject, written by fans of all teams. Between there and here, there are two groups of fans that downplay this or claim everyone does it and it's no big deal - Astros fans there and a small subset of Mets fans on BBI.

Rather instructive, I'd say.

then I could easily say the same about sign stealing. Just because you may know what pitch is coming doesn’t mean that the ball will be on a Tee for the hitter. You don’t know where the pitch will end up, what the velocity may be, if the pitcher screws up, etc. The hitter has a better “idea” what the pitch will be but there are still a lot of variables. Sign stealing isn’t some superpower. Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t.

I know it’s just my opinion, but it’s crazy to me that people think sign stealing is worse than PEDs. Both very bad...don’t want to lose sight of that. But people here want to overstate the PED use to help their argument of a “level playing field”. I don’t believe 90% of players were doing anabolic steroids. We are talking about decades of abuse versus a couple of seasons. Playoff implications with both but records were crushed by PEDs. History changed. The level of secrecy, preparation and money to get around the rules was astounding. To turn their bodies into something unnatural. The impact it had on youth sports. The comparison is not even close.

In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said:

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Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t.

The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.

In comment 14814232 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t. The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat.

Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them?

But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.

In comment 14814255 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814232 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t. The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat. Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them? But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game.

it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them

In comment 14814264 MM_in_NYC said:

Quote:

In comment 14814255 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: In comment 14814232 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 14814230 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: Otherwise we’d see some crazy offensive numbers...but we didn’t. The biggest single-season drop in strikeout rate in the history of baseball would strike me as a crazy offensive stat. Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them? But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game. it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them

No it doesn't. Put the ball on a Tee in front of the hitter - then its the same as knowing your opponents cards.

ludicrous.

Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming.

As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning).

Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance.

I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important

the players tell you all you need to know. The hitters that didn't cheat said they'd love to know what's coming as it would make their jobs infinitely easier. But look at the pitchers - the same pitchers that face juiced batters both then and now. They aren't complaining about PED's they are complaining about the batter knowing what they are throwing and how much of a disadvantage they have in that scenario.

So are all of these players lying?

In comment 14814266 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814264 MM_in_NYC said: Well, aside from that being a false statement - at least from the charts that I'm reading. They have the highest K Rate % decline over the past 20 years (2.2% higher than the next highest decline). There have been large K Rate Declines before - should we look at all of them? But yes, your hyperbole filled comment would indicate that there were benefits to their sign stealing. I guess my point was more on the offensive end. A lower k rate doesn't necessarily translate into hits or runs. But that was never my point. I'm not arguing that they had an advantage. They did. But it's not the same as knowing your opponents cards in a poker game. it may not be the same as knowing ALL of the cards in your opponents hand, but it does tell you at least one of them No it doesn't. Put the ball on a Tee in front of the hitter - then its the same as knowing your opponents cards.

that argument is crazy. yikes.

you're not getting the distinction between ALL of the cards and some of the cards.

or if you are getting it and still making this argument then you just don't understand how advantageous it is to know what pitch is coming. we're talking about pro hitters - they don't need balls on a tee

Stanton per ESPN:

"If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.

for the most part are to stay healthy or come back from injury which is why I suspect players in general don't have a problem with it. Guys coming back from injury that they would be facing anyway if they weren't injured. There are outliers like a juiced up Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, etc in regards to power but for the most part these guys are using avoid or heal an injury. And those guys that have gotten caught have paid dearly for it, so I don't even know what the argument is.

The effectiveness of various pitches largely depends on unpredictability. It's really hard to be looking fastball and then adjust to hit a breaking ball and vice versa. When you remove the unpredictability, and a batter knows what's coming, he can sit on that pitch. Hitting major league pitching is still hard even then, but it's not nearly as hard as not knowing whether Chapman is going to throw you a 100 mph heater or a wicked slider. A batter who gets tipped to the signal can jump on a fastball and safely spit on a slider, or hunt the slider without worrying about being overpowered by the fastball.

In comment 14814274 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

ludicrous. Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming. As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning). Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance. I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important

Yes, I think there is a big difference when comparing an 80 mph batting practice pitch down the heart the plate each time versus a 95 mph fastball that can be placed anywhere. You don't? If that's the case, why aren't the Astros hitters cracking them out of the park each at-bat?

I've played baseball and also coached. We can disagree. Not sure why it bothers you so much, lol. But flame away like you normally do.

In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said:

Quote:

Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday.

He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.

Which is why you had guys pushing 40 (and beyond) crushing the ball in the aughts, and why I'm 100% convinced Nelson Cruz is still on something.

In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said: Quote: Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday. He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.

Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage.

So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying?

In comment 14814302 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said: Quote: Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday. He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first. Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage. So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying?

Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents. That's fine, I get it. They are more directly affected than other teams. But many of the loudest PED critics from years ago were also caught as PED users. So it's hard to take these guys seriously sometimes.

To allude to something you said earlier in the thread...prove to me that other teams weren't doing something similar.

In comment 14814295 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814274 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: ludicrous. Watch batting practice sometimes. Why are pitches routinely cracked hard or going out of the park? Because the batter knows exactly what is coming. As a batter, I'd much rather know what pitch was coming than location (which people could "cheat" on by looking at the catcher's positioning). Knowing what pitch is coming is very much like putting it on a tee! In fact, if a batter is ahead in the count and knows what pitch is coming, he can sit on an area of the plate to cover. If he's behind on the count, he can know he won't be fooled or off-balance. I'm guessing you never played the game. Minimizing the impact on knowing the pitch reeks of ignorance. It is one of the most important advantages the batter can have, if not the most important Yes, I think there is a big difference when comparing an 80 mph batting practice pitch down the heart the plate each time versus a 95 mph fastball that can be placed anywhere. You don't? If that's the case, why aren't the Astros hitters cracking them out of the park each at-bat? I've played baseball and also coached. We can disagree. Not sure why it bothers you so much, lol. But flame away like you normally do.

It bothers me because it is illogical. And there is no fucking way you played at any level above little league - if you did and still hold that view, you are an idiot.

I played in college. I actually batted over .400 in a season. If I knew what pitch was coming, I'd put the odds of me hitting it where I wanted at 60% or higher. A MLB batter who knows a fastball is coming will not have to worry about being fooled - they can look for the release and figure out the location. As for why Astros didn't hit a HR everytime - they hit HR's at a higher rate and they hit for a higher average. There are tangible differences - statistical differences that are anomalies.

If you played the game - you should know as a second nature how important knowing what pitch is coming is. This shouldn't even be a debate.

there it is:

Quote:

Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents.

LOL. Turning this into a way to bash the Yanks. Awesome. And lie about playing the game and coaching. Fucking tool.

how many teams used cameras and buzzers to signal pitches. But i know that 2 teams got caught and if there were others it would have leaked by now just like it eventually did with PED's.

With PEDs there's users on every team in the league. We had that evidence in the past and I'm about 99% sure its still the case now.

By the way, the loudest people to date have been Bellinger, Judge, Bauer, Clevinger, Trout, etc. In otherwords, lots of big name players across the league, definitely not just the yankees.

In comment 14814309 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

there it is: Quote: Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents. LOL. Turning this into a way to bash the Yanks. Awesome. And lie about playing the game and coaching. Fucking tool.

A way to bash the Yankees? Because I think that Stanton is wrong or that Yankee players are amongst the loudest in baseball? Okay. I have no reason to lie but think whatever you want, college baseball stud.

You are the most miserable poster on this site.

In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said: Quote: Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday. He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first.

I think he referred to 2017 in part because he played in 159 games that year.

....and a handful of BBI Mets fans are pretty much the only people dismissing this.

In comment 14814335 Del Shofner said:

Quote:

In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said: Quote: Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday. He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first. I think he referred to 2017 in part because he played in 159 games that year.

Fair enough

In comment 14814306 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

In comment 14814302 UConn4523 said: Quote: In comment 14814296 PhiPsi125 said: Quote: In comment 14814288 Del Shofner said: Quote: Stanton per ESPN: "If I knew what was coming in '17, I probably would have hit 80-plus home runs," Stanton said Wednesday. He should probably focus on playing in at least 80 games first. Why not comment on what he said though? Regardless of his injury history he's yet another player that thinks its a massive advantage. So i'll ask again, are these guys all just lying? Okay, I think he's full of shit. And I've already mentioned that Yankee players have been one of the loudest contingents. That's fine, I get it. They are more directly affected than other teams. But many of the loudest PED critics from years ago were also caught as PED users. So it's hard to take these guys seriously sometimes. To allude to something you said earlier in the thread...prove to me that other teams weren't doing something similar.

lol the yankee players. laughable. If anything, Cody Bellenger (sp) has been the loudest. Hell, Lebron James just came out and was angry about this.

And FMIC is one the best and most reasonable posters on this site. just saying bruh

In comment 14814337 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

....and a handful of BBI Mets fans are pretty much the only people dismissing this.

I’m sure Mets fans would be totally dismissive if the Nats and Braves knocked them out of the playoffs the past 3 seasons and then found to have been cheating.

Bunch of frauds would be going apeshit and they all know it.

a pretty strong reason to lie:

Quote:

Okay. I have no reason to lie but think whatever you want,

You wanted to add context as if you understand the game.

Look - disagree if you want that all cheating is cheating, but taking it a step further to act as if PED use gives as much of an advantage as stealing signs, and it puts a glaring spotlight on ignorance about the game.

I don't think you can find any current or ex-player who doesn't realize how much of an advantage knowing the pitch gives. It is likely the single biggest advantage one can have in the game.

Why do you think the shift is effective? Because it plays the percentages of where a ball will be hit. making it more likely to be fielded.

Trying to say knowing the pitch isn't a massive advantage is one of the stupidest things a supposed ex-player or coach could make. That's why you have so many people denouncing this.

Click the link and poke around r/baseball. The condemnation is just about universal aside from some (not even all) Astros fans.
Link - ( New Window )

someone to provide evidence that other teams were NOT doing the same thing the Astros were doing?

jesus tapdancing christ.

anything. I'm just a Mets fan and all you Yankee fans on this site will just view anything I say as Yankee bashing. So, its my fault really...I should have known better.

My point was never to dismiss the effect that sign-stealing has on the game. I never said that it wasn't a massive advantage. I may have a differing view on how much of an advantage it was to the Astros, but I still said that it was a clear advantage to the team. The purpose of the thread was to discuss the difference between the two types of cheating. I happen to think that PEDs were worse. Not sure why that needs to break down in to childish name calling when my opinion doesn't match yours...but that seems to be your thing anyway.

...so anyone using PEDs prior to that was not "cheating"

In comment 14814370 Gary from The East End said:

Quote:

...so anyone using PEDs prior to that was not "cheating"

This is not true. They were banned in 1991. But they didn’t institute leaguewide testing until 2003. That made it hard to get caught until then but it was still banned....
Link - ( New Window )

Fay Vincent, who was baseball commissioner at the time, sent a memo to all teams stating that steroid use was against the rules.

Vincent himself admits that he had no power to change the rules in this way and that the letter was meant as a "moral statement". There was no official rule change.

In any case, not only was there no testing regime, there were no penalties on the books for violations, either of which would have had to be negotiated with and agreed to by the MLBPA.

A rule with no way to enforce it and no penalties for violation is not a rule.

In comment 14814370 Gary from The East End said:

Quote:

...so anyone using PEDs prior to that was not "cheating"

To that point, why are we then looking at the 2017 Astros in a 2020 lens, rather than a 2017 lens? 2017 was when Manfred found out about the Red Sox using electronic equipment to steal signs from the Yankees. The Red Sox were given a slap on the wrist, and Manfred sent a memo to MLB teams that any future violations would be dealt with harshly. Granted, the Astros have been doing it since then, but calls to take away their 2017 title are ridiculous, considering the mildness of punishments levied out by Manfred in that time period.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/09/15/red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees-mlb-punishment-apple-watch/638620001/

In comment 14814393 KDavies said:

Quote:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2017/09/15/red-sox-stealing-signs-yankees-mlb-punishment-apple-watch/638620001/

Now you're not even trying anymore.

I personally don't advocate for actually stripping a title from the record books anyway. That white-washes it. It allows people to forget it as if it never happened.

I'd prefer it gets left there, and every fan can choose to view it with as big or small of an asterisk as they please. For most people who actually realize what a massive deal it is, the year 2017 will always ring that bell of what massive cheaters the Astros were.

It gives me a good deal of satisfaction know that the Astros have exactly 1 title in the books, and that it's tainted as shit. I prefer that to showing them as having a clean zero titles. Leave it there. Don't help them erase it.

Same with the MVP. Leave it there and let everyone remember what a dirtbag Altuve was.

help you steal signs better?

"Because I am a Mets fan, Yankee fans perceive everything I say as Yankee bashing"

Hmmm.

We have been on the same site for years. We know what we read.

There are Mets fans that never get "perceived"

You get "perceived" because you provide a multi year inescapable fact base. It is what it is.

In this case, the gloves fit. Which is fine and its all your choices over time...but then wear the gloves.

You are much more rational and balanced than that comment, so I assume it was the kind of gaffe we all make from time to time.

Your history seems very clear. You are not just a Mets Fan. You are a fan of Yankee bashing almost every time you see an opening. Period.

The gloves fit. Wear the gloves or change the gloves. But don't gaslight us for remembering what you write. We didn't write it.

that’s better than knowing what pitch is coming. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this, every article I read and player I listen to states that knowing a pitch is far more advantageous.

I’d be willing to chalk this up to someone’s opinion differing from mine but the math just doesn’t add up on this one. I’d go so far as to say your opinion isn’t even reasonable.

Sports is all about matchups and your reactions to them. It’s predominantly mental and if you have a mental edge you are going to set yourself up for success more than your opponent will, If you know something ahead of time and can react better to it that is infinitely more valuable than being slightly stronger or faster. I honestly can’t believe it’s even debatable.

PEDs (cheating by an individual player) and

Team Sponsored Cheating (in this case, stealing signs via electronic survelance, fully endorsed by at least three levels of the team...GM, MGR and players).

Big difference. Not sure why everyone doesn't see the distinction.

Yankee fans on this site and in my experience in general have some very thin skin. Extremely defensive of everything Yankees. Disagree? Just take a look at the thread and let me know where all of the petty comments and childish name calling come from. And why...because someone doesn’t agree with another’s point of view. Lol, grow up.

Sure, I’ve gotten into it with Yankee fans. But it’s generally not my thing to get into it unprovoked. But I’m sure you only see one side of things, which is not surprising.

My participation in this thread had zero to do with the Yankees. If you want to believe otherwise then that’s just you wearing your pinstriped shades on.

In comment 14814501 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

that’s better than knowing what pitch is coming. Everyone I’ve spoken to about this, every article I read and player I listen to states that knowing a pitch is far more advantageous. I’d be willing to chalk this up to someone’s opinion differing from mine but the math just doesn’t add up on this one. I’d go so far as to say your opinion isn’t even reasonable. Sports is all about matchups and your reactions to them. It’s predominantly mental and if you have a mental edge you are going to set yourself up for success more than your opponent will, If you know something ahead of time and can react better to it that is infinitely more valuable than being slightly stronger or faster. I honestly can’t believe it’s even debatable.

UConn, if you want to compare what’s more advantageous in an at bat - knowing the pitch or being on PEDs - then I’d agree with you. My initial point was to compare the two scandals as a whole and offer my opinion on which one was worse. That was the point of the thread. I even mentioned multiple times that I wasn’t trying to minimize the issue of sign stealing, but of course that didn’t matter. I still don’t think it’s as simple as sign stealing being a “superpower”. Knowing what pitch is coming isn’t the same hitting batting practice - otherwise the Astros would have it 1000 homeruns.

If you want to point to the increase in HRs and BA as proof of the Astros cheating, that’s fine. But how do you how much of that increase is natural or from cheating? I think it’s a valid question. The Mets has a pretty big increase in HRs and BA themselves. But with no sign stealing involved.

I thought it was a good thread topic on a relevant issue. The funny thing is that I’ve had plenty of conversations about this with people. Some agree with me and some don’t. But not a single person called me a fucking idiot for disagreeing with their point of view.

There are several articles documenting the Astros jumps in pitch selectivity and other patience statistics from 2016-2017-the jumps are historic. No team has ever gotten better at certain stats (I’d have to look them up) than the Astros did between 2016-2017.

Comparing PEDs, which I hated the thought of as well, to sign stealing is so off base. PEDs are an individuals choice and still require you to hit the ball that’s being pitched without knowing what it is. PEDs were rampant and I’m not so sure than any team gained a clear advantage. Sign stealing to me is like a football team knowing what play is coming every down-yes, you still have to stop it, but man does it make it easier on you.

sign stealing wasn't a huge advantage, Jomboy(IIRC) posted the Astros home and away stats. the Astros batted something like .170 on the road like .300+ at home in the playoffs.

And the decrease in Ks over the last 4 years was startling. No other team had anywhere near the drop in Ks.

And the use in the playoffs is a large part of the issue. Now you have the top 4 teams playing each other. At that level the teams are pretty equal in ability. Now give the Astros the ability to know what a pitcher like Robertson, Chapman, Severino is throwing. You don't think that is an advantage? Especially breaking ball pitchers whose out pitch is a BB and the batter just lays of it several times.

As far as steroids, the advantage was recovery time and not wearing down as the season moved into August. As players breakdown physically through the season, the ability to keep your strength vs a pitcher who is losing velocity on his FB is huge. (For Clemens his advantge was throwing against tired batters while maintaining his velocity.) The real steroids cheating was those players who did not stop using after they were finally told in no uncertain terms to stop. The penalties are now severe.

And as many have pointed out the difference between steroids and sign stealing through electronics is that the majority of players were steroid users while the Astros and maybe the Red Sox were the only teams that used the video after all teams were warned. (And the Red Sox have not yet been proven to have used after the Apple Watch incident.)

If video sign stealing was being used by other teams, why haven't players spoken out against other teams, especially players that moved on like Mike Fiers finally did. You would think that there would be a lot of piling on if other teams were doing the same.

are on PEDS. Knowing what pitch is coming is crazy bad.