NFT: PEDs vs Sign Stealing

is pretty damn stark. Players all over the league were taking PED's. Basically a large % of players were cheating (not to the equivalent of use in the NFL, but pretty broad)

The sign stealing is a coordinated effort using technology that benefits one group of players.

Also, PED use was an individual choice. The sign stealing was organizational.

1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions.

2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

PEDs were more of an individual type of cheating where there were systems in place to deter/punish it. Well, I could be making that up. Did they test for steroids prior to the uptick after the strike or no? But with the cameras that was an organizational type of cheating. You are never going to stop individual cheating but something as widespread as using the home cameras to relay info is just taking cheating to a whole new level.

In comment 14813841 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

is pretty damn stark. Players all over the league were taking PED's. Basically a large % of players were cheating (not to the equivalent of use in the NFL, but pretty broad) The sign stealing is a coordinated effort using technology that benefits one group of players. Also, PED use was an individual choice. The sign stealing was organizational.

So, because more people were doing PEDs, the sign stealing is worse?

Reality, I think for the outrage by the players does have to do somewhat with the fact that most everybody was doing PEDs. Similarly, most players steal, or try to steal signs. I think the outrage against the Astros (and other teams accused) is that they didn't think of it too.

The outrage by the players is so disingenuous in my opinion. The same players outraged at the Astros have taken or been teammates with those who have used PEDs, stole signs, used pine tar, etc.

In comment 14813843 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

The fallout to the individual, especially the early guys you mentioned who got caught first (i would add McGwire to that list) was huge. But the Red Sox titles were fueled by Ramirez and Ortiz, two known users. I mean, I think performance enhancing drugs is worse than sign stealing because at its root, you make players choose, especially marginal ones, their health or their livelihood.

In comment 14813842 Chris684 said:

Quote:

1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

The victims were the Yankees and the Dodgers? Let's not forget that while the Astros are at the forefront, the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well, and the Red Sox fired their manager over it.

In comment 14813842 Chris684 said:

Quote:

1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example.

Couldn't disagree more.

1) This has nothing to do with "Cancel Culture" or the times we live in. When a TEAM, not an individual, is found to be cheating, and they win AL pennants and an MLB championship in part because of that cheating, then they will always pay a harsh price in the court of public opinion.

2) This is a MLB cheating scandal. The outrage is over the cheating itself. It's not about the teams that were affected.

In comment 14813849 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 14813842 Chris684 said: Quote: 1) We are in the midst of outrage/cancel culture. According to many, the Astros must die a thousand deaths every day for their actions. 2) The fact that their victims were so high profile in the Yankees and Dodgers. The outrage would be about 75% less if this happened against the Royals and Rockies, for example. The victims were the Yankees and the Dodgers? Let's not forget that while the Astros are at the forefront, the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well, and the Red Sox fired their manager over it.

I agree with you, believe me.

I’m just saying what I’ve seen.

this take:

Quote:

Reality, I think for the outrage by the players does have to do somewhat with the fact that most everybody was doing PEDs. Similarly, most players steal, or try to steal signs. I think the outrage against the Astros (and other teams accused) is that they didn't think of it too.

sign stealing is like cracking a code. It's like looking for a pitcher to tip a pitch. It's a skill. And believe it or not, some guys I played with didn't want to know the signs. But there is a difference between doing it while on base and having a camera signal it through an advance notification method. The fact that this difference has to be pointed out is sort of asinine.

When cheating crosses the line to the use of technology and organizationally sanctioned - it will always raise the level of scrutiny and it will always be looked at with disdain. What if teams use technology to signal a pitcher tipping his pitches? A trained eye can pick that out - but if it goes to the next level - it is something completely different.

It's trying to equate finding a $20 bill on the ground with walking away with a few hundred thousand if you stumble upon a crashed Brinks truck.

cheating is cheating, though having sign stealing coordinated with electronics and a scheme is maybe worse because it was more coordinated cheating but it's also preventable by changing your signs.

nothing prevents the disadvantage you as a clean player possibly faced when facing a player using PED's

Not sure if I was an MLB player I'd feel any better if my team lost a meaningful series or championship to a team stealing signs vs a bunch of stars on PEDs. I'd feel all the winners were tainted and should have an asterisk.

Also, sign stealing with the electronics was mostly (fully?) a home field thing, the advantage from PED's were not geographically restricted.

player reaction tells you what you need to know... PED's are not viewed in the same light (nor should they be). The reaction from fans/players on the Giants would be VASTLY different If the Giants lost the super bowl because players on the opposing team were using PED's vs. the other team knowing the Giants entire playbook and what plays were being called.

In comment 14813860 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

player reaction tells you what you need to know... PED's are not viewed in the same light (nor should they be). The reaction from fans/players on the Giants would be VASTLY different If the Giants lost the super bowl because players on the opposing team were using PED's vs. the other team knowing the Giants entire playbook and what plays were being called.

Hence the outrage over SpyGate.........

In comment 14813849 KDavies said:

Quote:

the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well

By whom were they accused of what, exactly? Don't tell me you're going to either talk about that bullpen phone story or cite some anonymous Twitter bullshit. Be specific.

Mets fans never cease being pathetic.

i just can't quite put my finger on the correct articulation of it.

it's like a conversation i was having last week at a hotel bar with some colleagues. my penchant for looking up people we do business with online and getting their details was brought up and someone jokingly said it was creepy and that it was no different than taking binoculars and looking into someone's home. the correct response which i made was that they are wholly different - there exists a reasonable expectation of privacy within your own home, none exists on the internet .

there is something similar about the difference to be said here too.

i think it is mainly that PED affects you - sign stealing is not just making you better, it directly diminishing your opponent.

perhaps someone can flesh that out better.

Multiple players on every team were not using a high-def video monitor in the dugout tunnel to steal signs. It's as simple as that.

the individual vs. institutional/organization difference.

PED use is rampant in sports. There's probably not a single clean highly competitive cyclist out there. But cheating that is organizational has always taken the lumps. The Black Sox scandal for instance.

But even staying on the PED train. Look at Olympic athletes. Clean track and field people is an oxymoron. But if you are East Germany or Russia and pump people with drugs as an institution? The hammer comes down.

In comment 14813867 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 14813849 KDavies said: Quote: the Yankees and the Dodgers have been accused of this as well By whom were they accused of what, exactly? Don't tell me you're going to either talk about that bullpen phone story or cite some anonymous Twitter bullshit. Be specific. Mets fans never cease being pathetic.

See the link below, but keep with the ad hominem attacks. So, the ringleaders included Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran with the Astros. Cora was doing it with the Red Sox after the Astros, and lost his job.

Beltran was a player with the Yankees for a few years prior to his second stint with the Astros, and was a special assistant with the Yankees after the stint with the Astros.

Yet, we are supposed to believe that Beltran only did this with the Astros, and never did it with the Yankees, and wasn't planning on doing it with the Mets? Sorry, but I have a hard time believing that one.

https://sodomojo.com/2020/01/13/former-mariners-first-baseman-logan-morrison-claims-astros-cheating-goes-back-2014/

wasn't there allegations that runners on second base were tipping batters to signs based on how they led off second?

Also, how about spitballs? Gaylord Perry? There were several prominent pitchers who basically celebrated their scuffing balls, putting vaseline on balls, etc.

Everyone tries to get an edge...

However, the fact that the sign stealing was so indelibly coordinated to include receptor machines on players???

That is what makes it bad.

Like Belichek filming super bowl practices or signs vs. something like Brady Ball-Gate.

Between an individual player taking PEDs and TEAM-sponsored cheating using electronic surveliance to steal signs.

Years ago MLB players could secretly take PEDs to enhance their individual performance. Even though MLB knew this was happening at the time, per the collective bargaining agreement with the players union, testing of players was not allowed. So it couldn't be proven.

The first Year that PED testing was allowed (early 2000s?) it was supposed to be a "secret testing" whereby if more that 5% of the players tested positive then MLB would have the right to test players on an ongoing basis.

During that initial secret test, about 150 MLB players tested positive. That's an average of 5 per team, making it likely that every MLB team had at least one cheater on their roster during the "steriods era".

That means it's impossible to point to any one team and suggest that they didn't deserve to be champions. But when a TEAM cheats as an organization, and the GM, MGR and ALL the players on the team know about it, that is profoundly different than an individual player taking PEDs.

put it this way, players have friends on opposing teams (even rival teams) and yet... when have we ever heard players calling out rivals for using PED's? You don't and outside of a few rare cases you very rarely hear players even speak out against the "idea" of PED's or the acceptance of PED's in sports. Players know, word gets around, they see each other in the gym etc and yet you never, ever see anything reaching this level of ire. It's different, it just is.

people talk about PED's, I'd caution them that they spend time on a forum where our own team and the league they play in has 90% of position players taking PED's. And laughably, some kickers and punters too.

Because every team had guys using PED's. That is the main difference.

In comment 14813877 GiantBlue said:

Quote:

wasn't there allegations that runners on second base were tipping batters to signs based on how they led off second? Also, how about spitballs? Gaylord Perry? There were several prominent pitchers who basically celebrated their scuffing balls, putting vaseline on balls, etc. Everyone tries to get an edge... However, the fact that the sign stealing was so indelibly coordinated to include receptor machines on players??? That is what makes it bad. Like Belichek filming super bowl practices or signs vs. something like Brady Ball-Gate.

I think the % of fans or players who have an issue with sign stealing via runners on base relaying signs etc is very, very, very low. That's part of the game. NFL teams pick up players for a week just to get an upper hand on a playbook.

forces players to take PED's as a term of their employment, then you might have a correlation.

it isn’t a systematic. What the astros and Sox did requires many levels of personnel to pull off. And knowing a pitch is far more impactful than getting stronger or trying to recover from injury quicker.

In comment 14813882 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

people talk about PED's, I'd caution them that they spend time on a forum where our own team and the league they play in has 90% of position players taking PED's. And laughably, some kickers and punters too.

Yup. If it were revealed Eli, Tuck etc were using PED's during out SB runs the reaction would be "yeah but every team had players using PED's".

The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it.

He claims "first hand information" on three teams he's never played for. Additionally, he has an established track record of being a bitter, whiny bitch - see his crybaby act when he wasn't picked for the home run derby.

Did anyone ever corroborate Morrison's claim? Since he never played for any of those teams, what is the source of his "first hand information"? Did anyone else ever react to his claim by saying that they always suspected the Yankees or Dodgers were doing this, the way many players have said about the Astros? Was a complaint ever filed by another team like the one the Athletics filed with MLB late this season about the Astros?

It went nowhere because there was nothing to it but the ramblings of Logan Morrison. Go ahead and play the guilt by association game with Beltran. No one but bitter-ass Mets fans believes it, but you do you.

They brought up a great point about comparing the two. You see all this outrage against the Astros by everyone in the media including former/current players.

The PED situation, you didn't hear shit from the players which makes you think that there was a lot more people involved that never got caught.

than individual vs. team or widespread vs limited.

Putting a substance into one's body to gain a going-in physical advantage is bad. But it doesn't completely destroy my ability as a fan to consume the competition taking place on the field. The inputs were altered, and it certainly had an impact on the outputs, but the competition wasn't destroyed. The thesis of the game wasn't touched. (To be clear -- I'm still strongly against it. And I'm still annoyed that it happened and that it persisted for as long as it did. And as a Yankee fan, I'm still disappointed/embarrassed in the guys that were shown to have done it.)

Using technology within the field of play during a game is completely different in my mind. The thought of makes me completely disinterested in watching that competition or caring about its results. It's just a direct fucking over of one's opponent and anyone else who's invested their time and money in giving a fuck about the game.

It's completely different, and the equating of the two (primarily by Astros fans) is one of the absolute weakest arguments I've heard on the topic.

In comment 14813894 k2tampa said:

Quote:

The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it.

Baseball players were granted immunity. Of course, they weren't punished. That is literally what immunity is. Now, terms of immunity generally include a clause that blows the deal up if there is lying on the part of the person granted immunity. So, the Astros players really should just shut their mouths about it.

In comment 14813843 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

that the PED fallout has kept Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and other out of the HoF - which will be an even bigger joke if Big Papi gets in.

Yup and I believe those guys took them to keep up with the players trying to reach their levels of greatness.

Those guys were always better than most everyone else but the PED's started to close the gap a bit, and I've always felt Bonds, Clemens and ARod took them in order to stay at a level above as they always had been.

Doesn't absolve them but I don't believe they needed them to be among the best of their era.

In comment 14813881 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

put it this way, players have friends on opposing teams (even rival teams) and yet... when have we ever heard players calling out rivals for using PED's? You don't and outside of a few rare cases you very rarely hear players even speak out against the "idea" of PED's or the acceptance of PED's in sports. Players know, word gets around, they see each other in the gym etc and yet you never, ever see anything reaching this level of ire. It's different, it just is.

Exactly, Dan. The league-wide outrage for this is unprecedented. That alone is a glaring indicator that this is not normal, not widespread, and not viewed mildly by the players themselves.

Just in comparison - remember when Michael Pineda was caught with pine tar? Even the Red Sox were almost embarrassed to bring it up to the umps. That was because pine tar use is fairly unremarkable in MLB, and Pineda was only being accused because he was so damned blatant and obvious about it.

history because of what is most recent.

there were PLENTY of players who came out publicly against PED use. Also, MLB did a far better job of containing the PED situation despite the Mitchell report and even stuff like Juiced because they didn't test for it and when they did and 103 players failed the test they refused to publish the names.

Quote:

Roy Halladay @RoyHalladay When you use PEDs you admit your not good enough to compete fairly! Our nations past time should have higher standards! No Clemens no Bonds! 2:53 AM · Jan 6, 2016·Twitter for iPhone

Quote:

... "To me, personally, I think you should be out of the game if you get caught," Trout said Monday on WFAN radio. "It takes away from the guys that are working hard every day and doing it all natural." Trout seemed to be taking a subtle shot at Rodriguez, the lone player linked to the Biogenesis drug scandal who appealed his punishment. Twelve other players linked to the case received 50-game suspensions on the same day as A-Rod's discipline, but did not contest. Former NL MVP Ryan Braun earlier accepted a 65-game ban. Trout's comments are the latest salvo from a growing group of former and current players frustrated by the PED issue and its impact on America's pastime. Friday, Tigers All-Star pitcher Max Scherzer told the Daily News that he thinks "the overwhelming theme among players is to have stiffer penalties" for drug cheats, although he wouldn't elaborate. "We're looking – as a union – to explore more avenues to get rid of the loopholes within the Joint Drug Agreement," Scherzer said. "The worst thing to do is negotiate through the media. This is actually a real thing that's on the bargaining table that will be discussed at great lengths with MLB and the Players Association." ...

In comment 14813914 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

history because of what is most recent. there were PLENTY of players who came out publicly against PED use. Also, MLB did a far better job of containing the PED situation despite the Mitchell report and even stuff like Juiced because they didn't test for it and when they did and 103 players failed the test they refused to publish the names. Quote: Roy Halladay @RoyHalladay When you use PEDs you admit your not good enough to compete fairly! Our nations past time should have higher standards! No Clemens no Bonds! 2:53 AM · Jan 6, 2016·Twitter for iPhone Quote: ... "To me, personally, I think you should be out of the game if you get caught," Trout said Monday on WFAN radio. "It takes away from the guys that are working hard every day and doing it all natural." Trout seemed to be taking a subtle shot at Rodriguez, the lone player linked to the Biogenesis drug scandal who appealed his punishment. Twelve other players linked to the case received 50-game suspensions on the same day as A-Rod's discipline, but did not contest. Former NL MVP Ryan Braun earlier accepted a 65-game ban. Trout's comments are the latest salvo from a growing group of former and current players frustrated by the PED issue and its impact on America's pastime. Friday, Tigers All-Star pitcher Max Scherzer told the Daily News that he thinks "the overwhelming theme among players is to have stiffer penalties" for drug cheats, although he wouldn't elaborate. "We're looking – as a union – to explore more avenues to get rid of the loopholes within the Joint Drug Agreement," Scherzer said. "The worst thing to do is negotiate through the media. This is actually a real thing that's on the bargaining table that will be discussed at great lengths with MLB and the Players Association." ...

Exactly. There was a ton of outrage by players and former players against PED users.

Most of the comments I can recall regarding PEDs were couched in generalities. Rarely would you see a player calling out individual players specifically, or as a team.

In comment 14813897 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

He claims "first hand information" on three teams he's never played for. Additionally, he has an established track record of being a bitter, whiny bitch - see his crybaby act when he wasn't picked for the home run derby. Did anyone ever corroborate Morrison's claim? Since he never played for any of those teams, what is the source of his "first hand information"? Did anyone else ever react to his claim by saying that they always suspected the Yankees or Dodgers were doing this, the way many players have said about the Astros? Was a complaint ever filed by another team like the one the Athletics filed with MLB late this season about the Astros? It went nowhere because there was nothing to it but the ramblings of Logan Morrison. Go ahead and play the guilt by association game with Beltran. No one but bitter-ass Mets fans believes it, but you do you.

Logan Morrison? Haha. People actually take what this guy says seriously? He just referred to Alex Cora as Joey Cora in that ridiculous rant. And as you said, he’s never played for any of those teams so he clearly also has no idea what “first hand knowledge” means.

You and I have both said this before, but if the Yankees were stealing signs, they absolutely suck at it. They strikeout at record rates and often look like they’ve never seen a breaking ball in their lives. The Astros meanwhile went from a strikeout heavy team to a team that rarely struck out all in one season. The turn around in strike out rate was the biggest leap in baseball history.

People are soooo desperate to bring the Yankees into this. It’s comical, really

and Greg. The outrage is over the unlevel playing field.

When a lot of players were using amphetamines, it leveled it out. when players were using PED's, it leveled out. Even things like sign stealing while on base or seeing a pitcher tip a pitch is an individual skill to decipher. It isn't literally a media center with big screen TV's, headphones, and a sophisticated notification device using buzzers and wires.

Again - I'm really surprised this has to be explained to some people on this thread.

I believe that PEDs were way worse that this sigh stealing episode. With PEDs, you had players physically changing their body in order to gain an advantage. Putting harmful, illegal drugs in their body. Many players involved across decades that is clearly still happening to a degree. World Series titles were affected. Records were broken. And regardless of what you want to "remember" there was plenty of ire and vitriol from players/media/fans.

The sign stealing is obviously still bad...but from what we know, it's only been going on a short time. And if you think that the Astros were the only team doing this, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have to even wonder how much this even helped the Astros. Especially if this was an open secret that many believe. I could also make a case that this worked against them if other teams knew and changed their signs. With such an advantage, you'd think that they would have a team full of .400/.500 hitters.

The mob mentality among MLB players has certainly gained steam. It gives players a sense that they had something stolen from them - which is a somewhat valid case. But I do find it funny listening to Yankee fans piss and moan on the radio every day stating that the Yankees would have 3 or 4 more championships if it weren't for the Astros cheating. Yeah - it doesn't work that way lol.

In comment 14813924 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

Most of the comments I can recall regarding PEDs were couched in generalities. Rarely would you see a player calling out individual players specifically, or as a team.

But don't you think that's at least partially because MLB contained it?

Google search it, bleacher report has a list of the 103 names. If that came out "officially" there would likely be more direct and public animosity. IMO.

Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.

individually or organizationally I wouldn't care. And I doubt professional baseball players would either.

this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs.

other players I recall speaking out against PED use other than the ones mentioned include Kenny Lofton, Joe Morgan, Rick Porcello, Nick Markakis, Verlander (ironically).

hard-pressed to say World Series titles were impacted by PED use. The % of players using was very high.

Again -there is a lot of ignorance about PED's. Why don't we have this outrage in the NFL?? The PED use is off the charts. And it was that way in MLB too.

I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.

In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs.

Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only.

In comment 14813929 PhiPsi125 said:

Quote:

I believe that PEDs were way worse that this sigh stealing episode. With PEDs, you had players physically changing their body in order to gain an advantage. Putting harmful, illegal drugs in their body. Many players involved across decades that is clearly still happening to a degree. World Series titles were affected. Records were broken. And regardless of what you want to "remember" there was plenty of ire and vitriol from players/media/fans. The sign stealing is obviously still bad...but from what we know, it's only been going on a short time. And if you think that the Astros were the only team doing this, then I have a bridge to sell you. I have to even wonder how much this even helped the Astros. Especially if this was an open secret that many believe. I could also make a case that this worked against them if other teams knew and changed their signs. With such an advantage, you'd think that they would have a team full of .400/.500 hitters. The mob mentality among MLB players has certainly gained steam. It gives players a sense that they had something stolen from them - which is a somewhat valid case. But I do find it funny listening to Yankee fans piss and moan on the radio every day stating that the Yankees would have 3 or 4 more championships if it weren't for the Astros cheating. Yeah - it doesn't work that way lol.

I’d LOVE to see your reaction if the Mets lost to the Nationals and Braves in the play the past 3 seasons and then both teams were found to have cheated...something tells me your reaction would be a bit different. And it would be fantastic

In comment 14813941 KDavies said:

Quote:

In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs. Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only.

Every fucking thread you bring it up.

But then again - you don't sound too bright, so I can see why you repeatedly do it.

In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.

That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent.

I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.

in the organization were in the know and did nothing to stop it. Hinch actually saw the monitor that they were using. Who knows just how many higher-ups in the Astro's organization knew about this and actually *saw* evidence of this taking place.

I'm pleased that pretty much every team in the league is outraged over this much more so than PED's or anything else. It's an appropriate reaction.

In comment 14813947 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

In comment 14813941 KDavies said: Quote: In comment 14813935 FatMan in Charlotte said: Quote: this KDavies guy has been foaming at the mouth to implicate the Yankees in the scandal since day 1. He repeatedly brings to every thread on the subject that they've been accused of stealing signs. Bwahahaha. It was another player that brought the Yankees into it, not me. I literally said on this thread that you are naïve as a Mets fan to think that Beltran wasn't going to try and do this with the Mets, or that the Yankees fans are naïve to somehow think that Beltran didn't do it with the Yankees before or after his stint with the Astros, but that he magically did it with the Astros and the Astros only. Every fucking thread you bring it up. But then again - you don't sound too bright, so I can see why you repeatedly do it.

Because, as this whole thread points out, the hypocrisy surrounding the outrage towards the Astros is astounding. Fans and players of other teams have players on their team who use pine tar, PEDs, etc. There have been other teams implicated in this mess, including the Red Sox, Dodgers, and Yankees. But yeah, let's stone the Astros in the public square, and act like they are the only team that has ever cheated.