I am really shocked by the outrage over sign stealing. Not that i don’t think it was bad and completely wrong, it was and is. I am outraged by it. But, PEDs enhanced performance, likely changed World Series outcomes and definitely affected the game. I get that there has never been proof that an organization helped obtain PEDs, but the result is still the same. And, even if the organizations didn’t help, they definitely willfully ignored it. Have players been shamed for PEDs? Yes. Have they suffered individual consequences for their actions? Yes. But nobody thinks that their teams titles are diminished because of their cheating. Shouldn’t they be? What is the difference?
Also, I hate to be the one to break it to you, but it seems pretty obvious that Manfred was consciously choosing to make Beltran and Cora the main scapegoats for this thing as an avenue to attempt to lessen the blame on active players. Carlos Beltran didn't force the Astros at gunpoint to set this system up. Neither did Alex Cora, for that matter. This was an organizational decision from Luhnow on down, if not Crane himself. This is pure conjecture on my part, but I don't buy his babe-in-the-woods routine for a second.
Again -there is a lot of ignorance about PED's. Why don't we have this outrage in the NFL?? The PED use is off the charts. And it was that way in MLB too.
I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.
Football does not place the same historical importance on individual vs individual that baseball does.
While baseball is a team sport in many regards team success is largely based on individual battles isolated to their impact more than almost any other sport, it's so steeped in history, records, and individual achievements that in some cases even overshadow the game PEDs mean more than some other sports.
Putting a substance into one's body to gain a going-in physical advantage is bad. But it doesn't completely destroy my ability as a fan to consume the competition taking place on the field. The inputs were altered, and it certainly had an impact on the outputs, but the competition wasn't destroyed. The thesis of the game wasn't touched. (To be clear -- I'm still strongly against it. And I'm still annoyed that it happened and that it persisted for as long as it did. And as a Yankee fan, I'm still disappointed/embarrassed in the guys that were shown to have done it.)
Using technology within the field of play during a game is completely different in my mind. The thought of makes me completely disinterested in watching that competition or caring about its results. It's just a direct fucking over of one's opponent and anyone else who's invested their time and money in giving a fuck about the game.
It's completely different, and the equating of the two (primarily by Astros fans) is one of the absolute weakest arguments I've heard on the topic.
well said. this is getting closer at what the heart of the issue is. i still think we're missing the precise nailing of it but this is in the right direction.
The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology.
Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.
Nope.
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Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.
That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent.
I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.
And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users.
This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse.
Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.
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The players caught taking PEDs paid, and continue to pay, a big price financially and in reputation, not to mention they aren't getting in the hall. The big problem here is no player was punished. At all. If the players had simply had to, say, forfeit their rings, I think the outcry would be a whole lot less. And, the Astros players still with the team, and the management, are showing virtually no remorse. The indignation of Correa when asked about buzzers is hilarious. He says he would never lie about such a thing because if it were later found out to be true it would damage his reputation. Well, Carlos, what was your response in 2017 when people accused you guys of cheating? If I recall you vehemently denied it.
Baseball players were granted immunity. Of course, they weren't punished. That is literally what immunity is. Now, terms of immunity generally include a clause that blows the deal up if there is lying on the part of the person granted immunity. So, the Astros players really should just shut their mouths about it.
Correct, they weren't punished because they had immunity. But that is why people and other players are so upset about this versus steroids. They basically got away with cheating with no repercussions. There is now no disincentive for others not to cheat as a team.
Have you seen guys like Bellinger and Judge destroy the Astros recently? Do they sound like guys that would be worry about their teams being found guilty of the same things the Astros were doing? There’s only one guy that has defended the Astros and that’s JD Martinez. And I wonder why that is?
The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology.
Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.
Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not.
I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.
you're probably right about this. well that and slandering the shit out of everyone who insinuated otherwise
This isn't basketball. One player out of 25 isn't going to propel a team to championships. By that measure, why doesn't Trout have a bunch of rings?
Poor reasoning. And let's not act like the Astros weren't already an uber talented team all around.
If you really can't see the difference (and cause for player outrage) between a runner at second attempting to steal signs and a team using a dedicated camera hooked up to a high definition video monitor, then there's no point to further discussion.
So it's only impactful or cheating if it leads to rings?
What if it just helped make him the all-time HR leader in MLB history and single season HR king?
no big deal, everyone else was doing it so the playing field was level?
Isn't it possible it tilted the playing field dramatically in the 1 on 1 battles?
That is a ridiculous comment. You don't think PEDs improved Bonds' performance? When has one hitter in baseball ever carried a team on his back to the World Series? It's not basketball, where a single player has a huge impact on the game, or even football with the impact of the QB.
The best player in the game is Trout. His teams always suck.
This year should be interesting. I have a feeling anti-juiced balls and 8,000 cheating accusations are going to make baseball unbearable.
why was Beltran's 2017 post-season batting average .150 and OPS sub .500 if sign stealing was such a game changer?
By that logic, if the Astros sign-stealing was such a huge advantage, why did Jake Marisnick and Tony Kemp hit like shit?
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I still maintain Lance Armstrong's biggest weakness was denying he used PED's. Should have openly admitted it as every cyclist in his era was doing the same.
you're probably right about this. well that and slandering the shit out of everyone who insinuated otherwise
The sports world is sooo funny about this and I think a lot of it is because of the general cluelessness of the general public about PEDs. The amount of dumb crap I hear them that has been peddled as truth since the 80s is unbelievable. Newsflash, almost everyone in the NFL is on some sort of PEDs. Our own Lorenzo Carter went ham last offseason with them. Testosterone is essentially legal in the NFL, as long as you stay off the fertility drugs, looking at you Mr. Tate.
It's tough because even if you draw up some guidelines there are always going to be looking for an edge. SImilar to this Astros cheating scandal, the rest of the MLB is essentially taking the prescribed amount of testosterone, while the Stros were loading up on Ostarine, Tren, and Anavar.
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you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread?
The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology.
Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.
Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not.
Let's just shortcut this to the full reductionist take that you're peddling here.
1) because a bunch of players in the past did steroids, all current players and fans of teams who had cheaters (i.e. all teams) are also cheaters, and absolutely cannot be upset with or comment on a new, different, and more direct type of cheating impacting the sport.
2) in fact, nobody in general can get upset about cheating in today's game, because it's baseball. There were once a whole bunch of cheaters who did steroid in the sport, so any other new cheating is to be expected/tolerated.
You're either a bigtime troll or you're pretty fucking stupid.
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In comment 14813962 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you so fucking ignorant that you can't see the arguments presented in this thread?
The Astros aren't being stoned for stealing signs. They are being stoned for doing it as an organization and with advanced technology.
Again - the whole not too bright thing is ironically shining through here.
Sorry, having cheaters whining about other cheaters cheating is the height of cluelessness. Cheating is cheating, and to whine about other player's cheating, your shit better be clean. And it's baseball. It's not.
Let's just shortcut this to the full reductionist take that you're peddling here.
1) because a bunch of players in the past did steroids, all current players and fans of teams who had cheaters (i.e. all teams) are also cheaters, and absolutely cannot be upset with or comment on a new, different, and more direct type of cheating impacting the sport.
2) in fact, nobody in general can get upset about cheating in today's game, because it's baseball. There were once a whole bunch of cheaters who did steroid in the sport, so any other new cheating is to be expected/tolerated.
You're either a bigtime troll or you're pretty fucking stupid.
Or I see the hypocrisy? There is still plenty of PEDs in the sport. Still players getting caught. The level of vitriol leveled at the Astros is comical. They got caught. The organization responsible got punished. Just like with PEDs. Those responsible who have been caught have gotten punished.
If I am rooting for a team that had Bonds, or Cano, or A-Rod, I'd feel pretty darn hypocritical throwing stones at another team for getting caught cheating.
January 2020 registration, so, yeah, troll
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In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said:
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Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.
That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent.
I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.
And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users.
This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse.
Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.
there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same.
drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree.
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In comment 14813948 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14813932 pjcas18 said:
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Either way even if the sign stealing scheme is worse, a team with multiple PED users still would make me feel shitty losing to a bunch of cheaters.
That's the thing, though - most fans realize that their own team more than likely has steroid guys too. Like Fats says, that levels things out to a certain extent.
I like to mock Ortiz for being a roider, mainly because he still laughably swears that he has no idea how he ever could have tested positive, but I don't actually care about because the Yankees had those guys too. Same as every other team did.
And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users.
This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse.
Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.
there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same.
drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree.
PEDs have kept some of the greatest players out of the HOF. As much as some people seem to be minimizing it, it's a pretty serious form of cheating.
And every team stole signs. Yes, the Astros took it to another level, but maybe that's akin to a team having more PED users.
This whole thread is stupid. Which cheating is worse.
Sure, PED users can claim "there were a lot more other people who cheated too the same way I cheated and that in theory evens all the cheating out" so if that gives you/them a moral high ground over sign stealers - you can have it.
there absolutely are different levels of cheating. they're not all the same.
drugging your opponents for instance would be the nth degree.
PEDs have kept some of the greatest players out of the HOF. As much as some people seem to be minimizing it, it's a pretty serious form of cheating.
sure. not saying otherwise. but other forms are much worse.
Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.
Glad to see things haven't changed.
Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this.
So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees.
Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.
Glad to see things haven't changed.
December 2006. Definite troll...
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Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.
Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this.
So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees.
Lol, not sure what Met's fans have to be bitter about. But listen, Yankee players and Yankee fans have been the loudest about this whole issue so it's going to invite opposing views.
And I don't see Mets fans "shrugging this off". The discussion is how fans view this comparative to the PED scandal - which is a completely valid conversation.
Not sure why everyone that disagrees with you guys needs to get hit with a barrage of insults, but that just seems to be your way.
I'd say Dodger players have been more outspoken than Yankee players, for what it's worth. The strongest statement I've seen from anyone was Cody Bellinger's.
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In comment 14814029 PhiPsi125 said:
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Anyone that doesn't agree with and share in the Yankees fans outrage - is labeled ignorant, morons, trolls, or pretty fucking stupid.
Yankee fans, and pretty much every other variety of fans. Oh, and a boatload of players who are really pissed about this.
So far as I can tell, the only people shrugging this off are Astros fans, for obvious reasons, and bitter Mets fans who will use any pretext to bitch about the Yankees.
Lol, not sure what Met's fans have to be bitter about. But listen, Yankee players and Yankee fans have been the loudest about this whole issue so it's going to invite opposing views.
And I don't see Mets fans "shrugging this off". The discussion is how fans view this comparative to the PED scandal - which is a completely valid conversation.
Not sure why everyone that disagrees with you guys needs to get hit with a barrage of insults, but that just seems to be your way.
Mets fans ARE bitter about their own team's ownership. That is about it.
Using your logic, being hypocritical would be rooting for any team if you felt PED use was such a major offense. Don't limit it to a couple names.
And a newsflash here - every team still has multiple PED users on it.
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If I am rooting for a team that had Bonds, or Cano, or A-Rod, I'd feel pretty darn hypocritical throwing stones at another team for getting caught cheating.
Using your logic, being hypocritical would be rooting for any team if you felt PED use was such a major offense. Don't limit it to a couple names.
And a newsflash here - every team still has multiple PED users on it.
I am well aware every team still has multiple PED users on it. That is kind of the whole point that has been stated multiple times: players and fans of teams with cheaters on them are getting furious at another team for cheating.
Odds are 3 of the 4 were. And even if it was just one of the four isn't that the point - someone definitely was?
PED's isn't in the same league as the sign stealing. Ask any player what would help them more, be stronger or know the pitch being thrown at them. The answer is obvious, you'd be lying if you said otherwise.
The playing field with PED's is leveled at this point. If a ton of players are on it and no one is doing anything about it, then it just is. I don't like it either but it seems infinitely more level than 2 rogue teams knowing the pitches being thrown at them.
There are varying degrees of cheating here. Up to you and your moral compass, but they just aren't the same (if that's important to you).
You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.
Both takes are pretty ignorant.
The PED discussion is worthwhile because the assumptions made by those screaming it is cheating is that it was just some rogue guys. I will reiterate that you follow a sport with 90% PED usage and have no outrage over it.
The discussion here isn't about cheating or gaining an advantage. It is because the sign stealing was done using technology and with full knowledge of the organization.
If you think there is no difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. having it piped in through wires, video and buzzers, I don't really know what to say. Seems like you are just being obstinate for the fuck of it or as alluded to above - because you're a troll.
You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.
You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.
But everyone wasn't doing it. Shitty argument. Astros players used and are using PED's now, that we can agree on.
Stanton wasn’t with the Yankees in 2017 when the Astros beat them in Game 7 of the ALCS and followed that by copping a World Series title by beating the Dodgers.“They did their investigation and it was clear cut that they cheated that year, which means it should be taken away,” Stanton said. “If you cheat in another way (failing a drug test), you can’t even be in the playoffs.”
“If I knew what was coming in ’17, I probably would have hit 80 home runs.” Stanton hit 59 homers, drove in 132 runs and posted an OPS of 1.007 in 2017 and was named the NL MVP with the Marlins.
Giancarlo Stanton full of Astros hate, baseball fears: ‘More incentive’ to cheat again - ( New Window )
You can imagine their entire fanbase feels like that.
they don't. we have a large office in houston and my good buddy is/was a major astros fan. he and many of them are extremely disappointed in the team and are pulling back their support until they feel better about things, if they do. in fact, his little daughter asked him out of the blue the other day, "are we cheaters, daddy" and he at first had no idea what she was talking about, and then once he figured it out didn't even know what to say - he basically said the team did something and it doesn't mean you did anything wrong.
Both takes are pretty ignorant.
The PED discussion is worthwhile because the assumptions made by those screaming it is cheating is that it was just some rogue guys. I will reiterate that you follow a sport with 90% PED usage and have no outrage over it.
The discussion here isn't about cheating or gaining an advantage. It is because the sign stealing was done using technology and with full knowledge of the organization.
If you think there is no difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. having it piped in through wires, video and buzzers, I don't really know what to say. Seems like you are just being obstinate for the fuck of it or as alluded to above - because you're a troll.
Sure, there's a difference between a guy on 2nd base getting a signal vs. what the Astros did. Just as there's a difference between working out to get stronger, etc. vs. taking PEDs. In each example, there is an allowed method and a disallowed method that will be punished if caught.
Sorry, if all you have to do is resort to name-calling. It's pretty bizarre that people are so accepting of one form of cheating that gets severely punished, while they lose their shit over another.
I just shrug my shoulders at the whole thing. I love baseball and will continue to watch baseball. I do that with an understanding that pro athletes have and will continue to break the rules to gain a competitive advantage.
Seems you invest quite a bit of time in these discussions that you supposedly don't give a fuck about.