to rebuild this OL in particular?
After missing on Solder, Omameh, Remmers, Will Hernandez, trading up for DeAndre Baker instead of staying put and taking a Dalton Risner or Elgton Jenkins whom both would have been available at our 2nd round slot... only good OL move he has made is getting Zeitler in the OBJ/OV trade.
Okay, maybe Will Hernandez isnt a bust yet but I think after 2 years he is trending more toward being a bust than he is being a hit.
Do you trust Dave to get this OL right, yes or no?
I am a fan of DG. I like hearing him speak. Actions speak louder though. And I have seen enough to believe he can't fix this OL. 2 years, 2 strikes. This 3rd year should be his final try at fixing the OL IMO. It should be fixed after 3 years, no?
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In comment 14814950 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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many are assuming as fact that DG has built the team the wrong way and the 9-23 is a direct result of his missteps.
It is neither fact, not even provable at this point.
Two years of taking a talent-poor team and not seeing immediate results shouldn't be the barometer of what kind of job has been done. We should almost all agree that this year is the pivotal one to use as evaluation.
Something is indeed provable. It's the trenches; and DG's fingerprints are ALL over the Oline and Dline. They reflect his vision. And to date, neither has been remotely good.
So if you believe, which I'm sure you do, that having competent trench play is a key piece to success than one can certainly tie the 9-23 record to DG.
But, yes, you are right in this regard. This third year should be make or break.
If you had to completely replace both lines nearly 100% in just two offseasons, do you think you could do a competent/successful job of that? Would you sell yourself to an owner that way? Do you think most GM's would/could?
It would require near perfection to work with that kind of precision, and honestly, no competition from the other 31 teams for the finite available players in the draft/free agency.
I think the fundamental disagreement is pretty well evident in this post. You think it would have taken near perfection to turn around the line, and that may be true if we were expecting it to go from a shitshow to a very good line. But it went from a shitshow to a shitshow with different names. Solder was a bad signing. Omameh was a fucking disaster. Halapio was bad and then got the infamous "don't sleep on Pio" endorsement from DG (and he's already hinting at continuing the Halapio experiment at OC into 2020; hopefully Judge can veto that idea). It's not just that he inherited a bad situation with the OL; the majority of the moves he made to address that bad situation have been just as bad as his predecessor.
So you're right, it would have taken near perfection. And if that's the standard that you think anyone is expecting from him, you'd be right to defend him against that because it would be unrealistic. But I think that's not quite what people are looking for - I think they're looking for some shred of evidence that Mr. Hawg Mawllies is more than just a fucking soundbite machine when it comes to fixing the OL here.
As for the both lines part, if you want to use the DL to somehow give DG a pass on the OL, I think you're being too kind. If you're going to use your top two first round picks of your tenure on a RB and a QB, get the fucking OL right. The defense sucked even with his improved DL anyway. I would have preferred if he had more success on the OL than the DL. I would have preferred if he spent a first, third, and fifth round pick on OL players, and that if he was going to trade for an impending FA, it was an OL instead of a DL. He's using draft resources on the DL that surpass what he's doing for the OL, and his FA moves on the OL have flat-out sucked.
I think the fundamental disagreement is pretty well evident in this post. You think it would have taken near perfection to turn around the line, and that may be true if we were expecting it to go from a shitshow to a very good line. But it went from a shitshow to a shitshow with different names. Solder was a bad signing. Omameh was a fucking disaster. Halapio was bad and then got the infamous "don't sleep on Pio" endorsement from DG (and he's already hinting at continuing the Halapio experiment at OC into 2020; hopefully Judge can veto that idea). It's not just that he inherited a bad situation with the OL; the majority of the moves he made to address that bad situation have been just as bad as his predecessor.
So you're right, it would have taken near perfection. And if that's the standard that you think anyone is expecting from him, you'd be right to defend him against that because it would be unrealistic. But I think that's not quite what people are looking for - I think they're looking for some shred of evidence that Mr. Hawg Mawllies is more than just a fucking soundbite machine when it comes to fixing the OL here.
As for the both lines part, if you want to use the DL to somehow give DG a pass on the OL, I think you're being too kind. If you're going to use your top two first round picks of your tenure on a RB and a QB, get the fucking OL right. The defense sucked even with his improved DL anyway. I would have preferred if he had more success on the OL than the DL. I would have preferred if he spent a first, third, and fifth round pick on OL players, and that if he was going to trade for an impending FA, it was an OL instead of a DL. He's using draft resources on the DL that surpass what he's doing for the OL, and his FA moves on the OL have flat-out sucked.
well said GD
Last year was tougher to judge the line improvement for two reasons:
1. Rookie QB who held onto the ball too long at times.
2. Saquon was hurt a large portion of the season.
That shot show line is better than anything we’ve trotted out there since 2011-12
sacks. Lawrence had a solid rookie season.
The team needs reasonably competent Offensive Tackles.
Rookie qb DID hold onto the ball too long, led to a significant number of fumbles, did it not?
The team needs reasonably competent Offensive Tackles.
'Reasonable competent OT's.'
Wait another 5 years. We'll get there eventually (probably not).
Funniest shit I've read here in a few hours.
The team needs reasonably competent Offensive Tackles.
As a tandem, per PFF, Solder and Remmers were one of the worst duos in the NFL...
And if you are dubious of PFF, which I get, I simply say trust your eyes or just read Sy's reviews from this year. There are pretty damning...
Funniest shit I've read here in a few hours.
That was unreal. But the counter spin here was that's what the GM is "supposed to say". So we're reading to much into it.
When I challenged people to actually listen to that interview where DG says it, and he says it passionately, I got the expected answer...crickets.
Rookie qb DID hold onto the ball too long, led to a significant number of fumbles, did it not?
Of course he held onto it too long. He's a rookie. Lets see if he develops pocket awareness and this GM gives him some Tackle help.
As to 2018, the sacks did go down in second but a lot of it is the Giants had games where they had leads going into 2H/4Q and weren't playing catch up and passing as much. As such, the sack rate declined. Some of it was better oline play but alot wasn't.
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who got rid of the ball in a panic instant to a brave rookie who held onto it too long.
The team needs reasonably competent Offensive Tackles.
As a tandem, per PFF, Solder and Remmers were one of the worst duos in the NFL...
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"..Solder’s 57 pressures allowed this season are seven more than any other player, and the 97 combined pressures allowed for the duo is the most in the NFL.
And if you are dubious of PFF, which I get, I simply say trust your eyes or just read Sy's reviews from this year. There are pretty damning...
It's not fact or provable...even in the trenches!
Yeah, that was an interesting theme today. We can't "prove" the OL and DL were poor.
Despite so many statistical measures to the contrary...
Back to the OP's theme though, I just don't see how anybody can review his moves over the past 2 years and say they have faith in him.
So I think he has a trust issue, particularly with fans, and every move should be scrutinized with very little benefit of the doubt given...
If you say it enough times, it's sure to catch on. Keep it up.
If you say it enough times, it's sure to catch on. Keep it up.
huh?
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It's not fact or provable...even in the trenches!
Yeah, that was an interesting theme today. We can't "prove" the OL and DL were poor.
Despite so many statistical measures to the contrary...
Ummm. I said specifically the DL. If you want to regale the board about Lawrence, Tomlinson and Williams being minus players. Go ahead.
The interesting theme is the constant one here. That the team is bad, that it isn't improving and that Gettleman can't do it. That's actually posed as an absolute here often.
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"Eli Sympathy Tour"
If you say it enough times, it's sure to catch on. Keep it up.
huh?
And these discussions sure are fruitful when we have a 2/20 poster who came back to the board or created another handle just to weigh in on how bad the GM is.
Hard to take things seriously when a guy is so hard up he creates a dupe account to participate the majority of the time discussing the GM
What am I supposed to take seriously?
You literally created a handle to participate on one topic. Something your previous handle did too.
Are you actually trying to deny that you just jumped on the board, participate in 20+ active threads a day after only signing up 20 days ago?
When a poster seemingly gravitates to one agenda and talking point, why should that opinion be listened to?
And for christ sake, earlier I gave DG some kudos on the Harrison thread.
geez.
Last year was tougher to judge the line improvement for two reasons:
1. Rookie QB who held onto the ball too long at times.
2. Saquon was hurt a large portion of the season.
That shot show line is better than anything we’ve trotted out there since 2011-12
Improved with Jamon Brown, who DG let walk, replacing Omameh, who DG could not possibly have gotten more wrong. With Spencer Pulley replacing Halapio, yet we still got the "don't sleep on Pio" endorsement. With Chad Wheeler - a JR holdover - instead of Mike Remmers, who DG also endorsed in a recent interview. If anything, the OL improved in the second half of 2018 in spite of DG's efforts, not because of them. When he got back to to the business of fixing the OL for 2019, it went back to dogshit.
And the opponents from one half of a season to the next aren't the same, but I think that goes without saying. And you're right, those factors do make judging the OL last year a bit challenging, but we can make it super basic: even if they were fully healthy, would you support bringing back Halapio and Remmers and letting them start at OC and ORT, respectively, in 2020?
If the answer is no, you know damn well that it's not JUST a rookie QB and injured RB that made the OL look bad.
I'm just not sure how any fan can be comfortable with the job that DG has done with the OL so far. Is it just because he says all the right things in press conferences? Because it sure as hell isn't because he has actually built a competent OL here to date.
And for christ sake, earlier I gave DG some kudos on the Harrison thread.
geez.
LOL. "Struggled in a few one-on-none debates""??
I will point out again that you signed up this month as a reincarnation of another handle and you are going to keep scorecards of debates you obviously think you are doing well in?
Let's go to the cards then. What was your previous handle so we can look at the greatness of your body of work?
Being contrary to "plenty of others" basically boils down to the same group over and over again.
But glad you were truthful about not having another handle previously. You just jumped in full bore!
Agree, you're not thinking.
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The giants gave up 32 sacks in the first 8 games of 2018 but only 16 in the second half and we began winning games. We also had a 1000 yard rusher in 2018, when was the last time we had one?
Last year was tougher to judge the line improvement for two reasons:
1. Rookie QB who held onto the ball too long at times.
2. Saquon was hurt a large portion of the season.
That shot show line is better than anything we’ve trotted out there since 2011-12
Improved with Jamon Brown, who DG let walk, replacing Omameh, who DG could not possibly have gotten more wrong. With Spencer Pulley replacing Halapio, yet we still got the "don't sleep on Pio" endorsement. With Chad Wheeler - a JR holdover - instead of Mike Remmers, who DG also endorsed in a recent interview. If anything, the OL improved in the second half of 2018 in spite of DG's efforts, not because of them. When he got back to to the business of fixing the OL for 2019, it went back to dogshit.
And the opponents from one half of a season to the next aren't the same, but I think that goes without saying. And you're right, those factors do make judging the OL last year a bit challenging, but we can make it super basic: even if they were fully healthy, would you support bringing back Halapio and Remmers and letting them start at OC and ORT, respectively, in 2020?
If the answer is no, you know damn well that it's not JUST a rookie QB and injured RB that made the OL look bad.
I'm just not sure how any fan can be comfortable with the job that DG has done with the OL so far. Is it just because he says all the right things in press conferences? Because it sure as hell isn't because he has actually built a competent OL here to date.
+1 for GD...
Also I don't know who LBH is, but I'm already liking his vibe! Anybody who gets under FMiC's skin is A-OK with me! ;) Welcome to the dark side LBH.
FMiC, before you suggest that I am LBH, I'm not. I haven't been posting much mostly because I am just too busy at the moment. Also because I have gotten bored with the same debate over and over again. Just for the record, however, no matter how much you try to control opinions on this board, you are not having any impact on mine.
Losing your touch perhaps?
Hyperbole. Scouting nfl vet FA is overrated. Anyone can sign the right vet FA. No one can predict injury or compensate for bad coaching. And all these so called horrible, franchise crushing vet fa moves that many here love to lament, only one really had any true negative impact, that being solder, and he may have a bounce back year in him.
Some of you still lose sleep over the Jonathan stewart or omamala signings. Two stop gap vet moves that had little to no impact on the cap. Even ogletree, he’s outta here too with no dead money.
It’s all about the draft the last few years. Dg did fine there.
This franchise was in a dark place early 2018. They hired a bad HC to replace an even worse HC. Mara hires the coaches and there weren’t that many to choose from anyway.
Today, two years later this team has a young qb we all like and a very young roster of ascending talent. It’s also a roster with tons of cap room.
If you can’t see the vast improvements in this team as far as roster building goes, and instead want to focus on wins and losses, be my guest, but i dont think going that route is the best way to judge DGs two year tenure. Like I said, if the giants got lucky in 2-3-5 more games the last two years and the record improved, it wouldn’t change my take on DG but according to some of you this would be a big deal. I think that’s crazy.
Wins and losses during a nuke rebuild are almost secondary. We weren’t winning shit in 2018 no matter how hopeful I may have been they maybe we could sneak to a 9 win season. And 2019 was kids and more kids trying to figure out how to play with men. Moving on, let’s see how this rebuild manifests in 2020. The time is now for DGs draft picks to pan out and lead this team going forward. I think they are more than capable but they need some veteran help, help hopefully coming next month.
For me at least, I know when I am watching a good football team, and when I am watching a bad football team.
You can do all the what ifs you want and dream up scenarios about how the ball may have bounced so that the Giants won more often. It won't make them a better team.
The bottom line is that the Giants are, and have been, a lousy football team, and anybody with any football sense can see how bad they are when watching the Giants play. The Giants don't look like a team that is close to anything except another losing record.
The biggest fallacy is to get zo stuck in that fallacy no balance can be seen or considered
The result is repeating the obvious in an endless loop while blind to the subtle and to time
Now I'm speaking from the angle that DJ is a franchise QB and his fumbles were due to being a rookie combined with getting zero protection from his tackles. Go look at the Mel Kiper McShay thread to say how polarizing this is. QB play is half the battle in the NFL and I believe we have a good one entering his second year.
The biggest fallacy is to get zo stuck in that fallacy no balance can be seen or considered
The result is repeating the obvious in an endless loop while blind to the subtle and to time
Bill, the issue with that is that you are assuming that the results a football team achieves from year to year are independent variables like one coin flip to the next. They are not... Similar, players, coaches, and management (although the Giants have new coaches this year, so that is an independent variable) tend to produce similar results, sometimes trending up, sometimes trending down, sometimes stagnant...
In the Giants case, I think the more apt analogy is the definition of insanity... I.E. Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting a different result.
I see way too much past is prologue in many posters thinking. I am sure you do as well. Bias like that renders very flawed thinking as well as the impatience that makes judgements based on latest snapshot not a time reasonable conclusion. As an analyst, I am sure you guard against this.
Lastly, I point out that annual roster turnover, continual player development and coaching turnover makes each team and each opponent new enough to reduce the certainty that so many find easy.