to rebuild this OL in particular?
After missing on Solder, Omameh, Remmers, Will Hernandez, trading up for DeAndre Baker instead of staying put and taking a Dalton Risner or Elgton Jenkins whom both would have been available at our 2nd round slot... only good OL move he has made is getting Zeitler in the OBJ/OV trade.
Okay, maybe Will Hernandez isnt a bust yet but I think after 2 years he is trending more toward being a bust than he is being a hit.
Do you trust Dave to get this OL right, yes or no?
I am a fan of DG. I like hearing him speak. Actions speak louder though. And I have seen enough to believe he can't fix this OL. 2 years, 2 strikes. This 3rd year should be his final try at fixing the OL IMO. It should be fixed after 3 years, no?
In comment 14814364 djstat said:
We get a 3rd for Landon Collins which you can trade to earlier part of round 3 when you trade back round 1 as a swap pick
In comment 14814392 Payasdaddy said:
gonna be alot a good players available with that high #3 the idiot gave away.
dumb moves like multiple washed up or crappy veteran FA signings bother me too.
Hope to god someone has his ear if viable trade downs are available to get another pick or 2 and still likely get the player we wanted
d baker trade- not ready to rip it yet, lets see if he becomes a building block in 2020. But probably no need to have traded up for him.
Yes, he's turned over the entire 53 man roster and the entire 5 person offensive line. So technically, this is true. That's what I do get.
What I don't get, is lack of understanding of just how hard it is to replace THAT MANY players in such a short time with finite resources. He had to replace the entire offensive line in his first season. Oh, and at the same time, he had to field a team to play. I don't know about you guys, but I don't exactly know where he was supposed to get 5 starting offensive linemen in one offseason. And that's just one example of how bad the roster was. Everything needed turned over.
It's one thing if you have a roster with a couple of holes in it, and you only need like 3-5 guys. But when your entire roster needs turning over, that takes time. Multiple drafts. Multiple free agency periods. He needs to keep churning from the bottom of the roster up.
You can, and have relentlessly, criticize him for not starting it from Day one. But for me, it seems to me that last offseason we finished razing the foundation of it all, and now we're building the foundation from the ground up. The worst thing you can accuse Gettleman of, IMO, is starting one year too late. And that's even understandable considering the state of the franchise when he inherited the roster.
Bobby Hart
Ereck Flowers
Adam Bisnowaty
Justin Pugh
John Jerry
Weston Richburg
Brett Jones
Jon Halapio
D.J. Fluker
There is maybe one solid NFL starter in there, Richburg. That is basically it. How long should it take to replace 10 positions? At least 3 years if you hit on every FA and draft. Probably more like 4 years
People really don’t appreciate the crap roster this team had when he took over. It was one of the worse rosters in the league. It takes time. But also, some of the moves he has made are suspect at best. So really his grade right now is incomplete. Drafts are impossible to grade after a year or two. It takes at least 3-4 yrs to really get a good feel on how a draft went. So I’m willing to give him the benefit of doubt and hope it all works out. Drafting DJ may be his saving grace. Drafting a top tier QB makes everything you do a lot easier. Hopefully DJ becomes that. We’ll see.
The roster now as the tear down approaches its end has a good number of prospects they believe are part of the new core, but a long way to go with the OL and LB units, not to mention starters needed at FS, WR, and depth everywhere.
With a salary cap and a CBA that provides a team with precious few resources to build in real time, it's a few years just to get a solid idea of the foundation and if their direction is sound. And, to overcome the mistakes that will no doubt be made, even by the best run franchises.
Now, throw in a new head coach and staff and who knows what players from the last two years will fit, wash out, explode, need to be replaced, etc.
It's a big bag of wait and see. Even Mara said it during one of the recent pressers, we've made all the changes and now it takes time to build and see if it's the right direction.
I can understand posters on BBI optimistically hoping for a 10 win playoff season, but a seasoned General Manager?
But the question is do you have faith in the guy that didn't see it that same way.
The roster now as the tear down approaches its end has a good number of prospects they believe are part of the new core, but a long way to go with the OL and LB units, not to mention starters needed at FS, WR, and depth everywhere.
With a salary cap and a CBA that provides a team with precious few resources to build in real time, it's a few years just to get a solid idea of the foundation and if their direction is sound. And, to overcome the mistakes that will no doubt be made, even by the best run franchises.
Now, throw in a new head coach and staff and who knows what players from the last two years will fit, wash out, explode, need to be replaced, etc.
It's a big bag of wait and see. Even Mara said it during one of the recent pressers, we've made all the changes and now it takes time to build and see if it's the right direction.
Does Dave survive if we go 5-11 or 6-10 next year? Maybe it’s my total contempt for the man, but I don’t see how he would deserve a 4th year.
Although the LW trade kinda throws a wrench into that theory.
I can understand posters on BBI optimistically hoping for a 10 win playoff season, but a seasoned General Manager?
Because he saw a team one season removed from a playoff season on defense. He already had Eli Manning, Odell Beckham, Engram, and SHeppard as weapons on offense. He drafted Barkley and signed what he thought was going to be a new quality starting LT, drafted a G high, while attempting to salvage Flowers by moving him to RT. Additionally, it's hard to say exactly how much or how little McAdoo losing the lockerrom had on the overall product.
Manning had two years left on his contract, was 36, and they thought he could, rightfully so, still play. He hoped that with those tweaks, he could field a competitive team while continuing to retool the roster. Eight games in, that was clearly not working and he cut bait. You may not agree with the decision, but if you look at it as a whole it's understandable why he thought he might have been able to field a competitive team while continuing to work on the roster at the same time.
Clearly, they thought they could do a more seamless transition than the scorched earth approach. It just didn't work so they pulled the plug.
I was pleased he began to quickly cut bait, but I saw little that said to me Eli and that roster was going to win in 2018 in the first place.
DG tried for quick, small wins and it blew up.
Based on the other trades in 2018 (the Jets giving up 3 2nd's to move from 6 to 3 and the Cardinals giving up a long 3rd to move from 15 to 10, both for QB's), I can understand that the value may not have been there for the #2 overall pick.
I think Dave Gettleman is on the tail end of his career one way or the other. The guy is pushing 70 and they brought him here to get the ship back on the right track.
I don't think he's going to spend for the purpose to "save his job" like Reese did in 2016, if that's the worry here. I think he's trying to set the Giants up for the long term and wants to leave a quality team ala Accorsi when he retired in 2006. THAT'S the "Giants Way".
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that looked rather amateurish, and I hope it goes away with the outed coaches. But, now armed with big cap space and people trying to protect their jobs, the UFA usage must improve otherwise there will be more painful seasons until the draft development catches up on the football field.
I think Dave Gettleman is on the tail end of his career one way or the other. The guy is pushing 70 and they brought him here to get the ship back on the right track.
I don't think he's going to spend for the purpose to "save his job" like Reese did in 2016, if that's the worry here. I think he's trying to set the Giants up for the long term and wants to leave a quality team ala Accorsi when he retired in 2006. THAT'S the "Giants Way".
JonC and Britt...you both nailed it. The self scouting was pathetic, but I do give them some credit for coming out and admitting it. At least it seems like the orginazition is back on track. DG's FA record is sub average right now, and his LW trade doesn't look great at the moment, but I think now that we have a competent coaching staff his draft picks will look better than they currently do, and a lot of them look pretty damn good.
Britt - its just not understandable imv that DG didn't see what had to happen to this team , Eli, et al. One year removed from a playoff team that got there ass handed to them in the wildcard round? Need to be somewhat future looking...not the other way.
He has found what looks like a franchise QB, what looks like a stud RB, Drafted a real good prospect at WR who could be the steal of the draft. drafted Lawrence who looked real good.
FA has been bad for the most part. The LW trade was a kick in the nuts and makes no sense. That was his biggest mistake and the fact that the jets fleeced us makes it worse.
I can't ding him too hard for Solder as at the time I thought it was a good move and you always overpay for top FA. its not like NE didnt offer him a big salary, they did so they did want him back.
He has done enough good to warrant this season and see what he can do with real money to spend. I am confident he can draft well. If he starts to hit on FA we can turn this around. I also believe that Mara is more at fault here than DG. I think the Shurmur hire was more Mara that DG, Mara wanted a guy with head coaching experience and there just wasnt the candidates at that time. i could be wrong on that but I know he was forced to keep Eli and the last 2 years was wasted because of it.
Really? Bad enough to make a poor decision on keeping Eli in place, but to double-down on not rebuilding properly even if he stays another year or so is egregious.
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Really? Bad enough to make a poor decision on keeping Eli in place, but to double-down on not rebuilding properly even if he stays another year or so is egregious.
Here's were the breakdown occurs in this argument.
I don't believe it was an either/or proposition. I thought the right move was to try and do both at the same time. That's what they tried, and it didn't work. So in hindsight, it wasn't the right move. But that's why I understood what they did.
It has been discussed a number of times, but even if we moved away from Eli and drafted Darnold, we could be in as bad of a position today (if not worse). Even a trade down scenario has that pesky little element of finding the right players - picking a guy who doesn't pan out negates the reason for the trade down in the first place.
The conclusion many come to is that 2 years have been wasted because we are 9-23 in that time, but if the results this year put us in a position to compete, I'd argue we didn't really waste anytime because an overhaul of the roster was needed.
I understand complaints about certain moves, but to project that to definitively state that the wrong path has been taken isn't necessarily correct. Yet some of you go on as if things have been fucked up without hope of repair.
I feel like you're changing your tune a bit here. I might be misremembering or thinking of someone else, but I feel like you were staunchly of the opinion that the rebuild was happening around Eli and that the QB position could simply be addressed at a later date.
Now, if that wasn't your take, I apologize. And if it was, I definitely can understand how you might have been saying that both with your head and your heart because it seemed like you would have preferred for the rebuild to happen around Eli to potentially extend Eli's career for your own enjoyment.
But if it was you, and you're now saying that the rebuild couldn't begin in earnest until the QB was replaced? Well, I find it a bit convenient coming from the guy who likes to frequently accuse others of moving the goalposts.
It has been discussed a number of times, but even if we moved away from Eli and drafted Darnold, we could be in as bad of a position today (if not worse). Even a trade down scenario has that pesky little element of finding the right players - picking a guy who doesn't pan out negates the reason for the trade down in the first place.
The conclusion many come to is that 2 years have been wasted because we are 9-23 in that time, but if the results this year put us in a position to compete, I'd argue we didn't really waste anytime because an overhaul of the roster was needed.
I understand complaints about certain moves, but to project that to definitively state that the wrong path has been taken isn't necessarily correct. Yet some of you go on as if things have been fucked up without hope of repair.
That's fair, although DG himself admits to having fucked up the 2018 offseason with a poor job of evaluating the roster in his first few months on the job.
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In comment 14814706 Britt in VA said:
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Really? Bad enough to make a poor decision on keeping Eli in place, but to double-down on not rebuilding properly even if he stays another year or so is egregious.
Here's were the breakdown occurs in this argument.
I don't believe it was an either/or proposition. I thought the right move was to try and do both at the same time. That's what they tried, and it didn't work. So in hindsight, it wasn't the right move. But that's why I understood what they did.
Well, at least the ol' memory is still working at full strength!
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Maybe he didn't like the QB's in 2018.
I feel like you're changing your tune a bit here. I might be misremembering or thinking of someone else, but I feel like you were staunchly of the opinion that the rebuild was happening around Eli and that the QB position could simply be addressed at a later date.
Now, if that wasn't your take, I apologize. And if it was, I definitely can understand how you might have been saying that both with your head and your heart because it seemed like you would have preferred for the rebuild to happen around Eli to potentially extend Eli's career for your own enjoyment.
But if it was you, and you're now saying that the rebuild couldn't begin in earnest until the QB was replaced? Well, I find it a bit convenient coming from the guy who likes to frequently accuse others of moving the goalposts.
It was a little more nuanced than that.
Yes, I thought the rebuild could happen concurrently with keeping Eli around for the end of his contract.
However, I said they should be actively seeking his replacement while doing it, which they were (and did).
Again, it's was never an either/or proposition.
I did not create the narrative of any sort of "Win with Eli" mandate.
Rebuild around Eli while searching for his replacement, yeah, I endorsed that.
I point far more to the fact that there are still so many parts/units on the team that are in need of rebuilding because of his poor past decisions. With different decisions, if we had won only 2 more games but there was more stability in the OL, LB corps, secondary, etc, and we were sitting here with extra draft picks (from unloading) versus less than normal I would be far more optimistic in the team.
Some of you guys hinge on the Solder move or the Ogletree trade to say that the Giants were in win-now mode. Meanwhile, we have a new RB, a new QB, an entirely new secondary and an entirely new OL from the previous regime.
You can't just base a rebuild on 53 draftees and UDFA's and hope they all develop.
It's pretty clear that we have churned the roster over and tried to rebuild while still hoping to compete. And that might have been the plan everyone signed off on - meaning that it wasn't a misread of the situation - but a strategy. You guys have debated that strategy to death - and still can't conclude we'd be better off today with a different plan.
I do think Judge will turn it around, his attention to detail and he's been around championship programs for the past ten years. He knows what it takes and carries the seal approval from BB and Saban, leaving me more hopeful we've got modern football program builders ready to put the work in. Hopefully, it's just a case of DG needing the collaborative effort from the boots on the ground to get the collective arrow pointing up.
Ok and I agree with the above sentiment. In fact, it was just another reason to shed Eli sooner unless you really believed 2011 was going to relive itself 7 years later.
It's pretty clear that we have churned the roster over and tried to rebuild while still hoping to compete. And that might have been the plan everyone signed off on - meaning that it wasn't a misread of the situation - but a strategy. You guys have debated that strategy to death - and still can't conclude we'd be better off today with a different plan.
I think its fair to say this strategy was a misread.
And you may not like what was said about other alternatives but the team would undoubtedly be much further up the curve now if the rebuild was done differently. Again, don't need to say that 9 wins would have been 11, 7 or whatever, just that the NYG would have more roster stability/promise.
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was more about the team moving forward to a new era, which was never going to truly happen until Manning was gone.
Ok and I agree with the above sentiment. In fact, it was just another reason to shed Eli sooner unless you really believed 2011 was going to relive itself 7 years later.
It wasn't about reliving 2011.
It was about stability at the position through the transition, and not David Carr'in the new QB by just throwing him out there.
I have faith that this will be the year he puts it all together. I think he has two pieces in Hernandez and Zietler, who will both benefit even more with a competent Center in between them.
If he can score a big time Tackle in the first 2 rounds of the draft, I think we will see an above-average Giants OL for the first time in about a decade.
Make no mistake though, this is absolutely a "make or break" year for Getty and rebuilding this OL. He started from scratch in 2017. This is his final chance IMO.
This needs to read and re read by everyone. How GFans fail to understand that this is the guy who built the OL w Seubert, Ohara, Mackenzie - I mwntuion these because they were all pro pick ups and he was in charge of Pro personell at the time he also picked up Hedgecock for the OL and so on lastly he built a solid / dominant line in Carolina too. but yeah suxy lol
I also think that the need to have something to complain about is more important to thinking rationally these days. Lets take Will Hernandez for example. We know the O Line is a work in progress. We know that Halapio did not play well last season. We know Solder did not play well last season.
But somehow, someway, Will Hernandez was supposed to be fantastic, even knowing those things. Some have even called him a bust.
Total lack of logic and reason. I don't understand it for the life of me.
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In comment 14814744 Britt in VA said:
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was more about the team moving forward to a new era, which was never going to truly happen until Manning was gone.
Ok and I agree with the above sentiment. In fact, it was just another reason to shed Eli sooner unless you really believed 2011 was going to relive itself 7 years later.
It wasn't about reliving 2011.
It was about stability at the position through the transition, and not David Carr'in the new QB by just throwing him out there.
But there were other alternatives to that. They were not chosen, for whatever the rational or irrational reasons, and the team now is not better for it.
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In comment 14814751 LBH15 said:
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In comment 14814744 Britt in VA said:
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was more about the team moving forward to a new era, which was never going to truly happen until Manning was gone.
Ok and I agree with the above sentiment. In fact, it was just another reason to shed Eli sooner unless you really believed 2011 was going to relive itself 7 years later.
It wasn't about reliving 2011.
It was about stability at the position through the transition, and not David Carr'in the new QB by just throwing him out there.
But there were other alternatives to that. They were not chosen, for whatever the rational or irrational reasons, and the team now is not better for it.
I don't think they are worse off for it, either. Frankly, I just can't figure out what the big difference between either or would have been right now.
I’ve seen too many legendary or good GMs lose a lot of games and for long stretches of time. We’ve seen this right here with the giants.
In the end the proof is in the pudding. A GM needs to find good players more than the competition does. I think DG can do that.
i don't think you're right because owners wouldn't pay them such great salaries if that was true - it's the actual literal opposite of dime a dozen. if there were so many they would get paid "dimes" but they don't - they get paid millions. i just think it is hard to judge their day-in day-out performance very well from the perspective of us fans, and therefore they can all seem to blend.
maybe i'm misinterpreting what you mean to say and what you mean is that not much separates the middle of the bell curve in the distribution of poor to great gm's? i could see that. but again, i think it is difficult for us fans to judge gm's on the basis of anything but the wins and losses, and to lesser extent draft results and contract signings.
right now dg's w/l record with us is horrible, and he's admitted to questionable vision/judgement in how he took to building this team when he came on. that doesn't mean he's outright horrible or inept, and it certainly does not mean every move he's made has been bad.
but i can't say that it gives me the warm and tinglies.
so my faith is weakened, yes. but my hope is not. i hope he does great.
Yes, that could have forced them to make a questionable QB pick (although that would have just been another bad decision) and not been better off but there are absolutely alternatives that could have made them better off.
Yes, that could have forced them to make a questionable QB pick (although that would have just been another bad decision) and not been better off but there are absolutely alternatives that could have made them better off.
I'm saying that it could have been better or worse, marginally.
We would have had an extra what? 7 million in free agency to spend? 10 million? Eli's contract was not the albatross it's made out to be. If they needed that money, they could've and would've been able to find it elsewhere. What's the point of cutting your veteran QB to sign stop gap QB?
Keeping Eli did not prevent them in going in any single direction that you think they should have gone. Even if they drafted Darnold.
They knew they had to find Manning's replacement. It was inevitable. It did not prevent them, IMO, from making any other move. They drafted Barkley, which they could have done with or without Manning. They could have still traded down at 2 for (Nelson) with or without Manning. They could have still taken a QB with Manning.
So what exactly did keeping Manning prevent them from doing, exactly? What would cutting Manning outright upon Dave Gettleman's arrival done for the franchise moving forward?
DG is very much old school just like TC in his mantra of establishing the run and stopping the run and further emphasis on prioritizing the obtaining of 'hog molllies'.
The way the NFL game has evolved is to really place emphsis on speed.
Everyone needs to be able to quickly go sideline to sideline on both lines.
LBs need to be able to cover
Safeties need to be able to cover the deep zones as well as come up to the los and tackle.
Corners need to press
The development of mobile qb's has really revolutionized the need for the Defense to be able to move effectively at every level of the D.
Running plays by the succesfful teams are more prone to be jet sweeps, tosses, reverses or qb option plays that place an emphasis on the D to be able to contain and the DL's ability to run sideline to sideline.
The Run game is no longer the power handoff up the middle which means that there is a de-emphasis on having hog mollies and hulking ILB's to stop the power runs.
The majority of offensive plays in the contemporary NFL are pass plays
Should the receivers be covered then the nouveau mobile qb takes off running. To be successful the O needs speedy wr's and speedy TEs and Rb's who can run pass routes effectively.
The D then needs speedy defenders to combat the speed behind the offensive thrusts.
DG does not appear to be adapting to the way the NFL has evolved based on his pressers and personnel selections in both FA and the Draft.
One can only hope that the new coaching staff can bring him around ohterwise the losing will continue imo
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We all loved George Young but sometimes forget that he spent first round picks on Thomas Lewis, Tyrone Wheatley and Cedric Jones in consecutive drafts from 94-96. Not very good.
Young definitely lost his fastball in the '90s, especially when the cap model was implemented.
But GY was one of the best GMs in football in the '80s. So I believe that ends up trumping the last third of his career...
BW,
Add to the fact that Young hated the idea of free agency and the salary cap.
I think DG has to open the check book on a pass rusher and an O Linemen, maybe an ILB or FS.
We need to land 3 quality free agents that are part of the long term plan. Then head to the draft picking best player available. Fill in with B and C level free agents.