For defense, Giants had the 6th highest QB hits last season, 14th highest pressure rate but was only 22nd in sacks.
Our top 3 in pressures was Markus Golden (44 in 16 games), Lorenzo Carter (22 in 15 games) and Leonard Williams (17 in 8 games).
One thing I found interesting comparing Leonard Williams and Cameron Heyward (who was a First Team All-Pro this year):
Since joining the Giants, Leonard Williams had more hurries, QB hits and pressures per game than Cameron Heyward. Of course the biggest difference is the 0.5 sacks vs 9 sacks.
If Leonard Williams could ever translate those pressures into sacks, we got ourselves a first-team all-pro capable here.
Heyward has a lot more help around him (not a coincidence Watt and Dupree also had good seasons) so pairing Williams with someone on the other side who is elite is vital. Not surprisingly his best season was his second year and him having both Wilkerson and Richardson. It isn't some great mystery why he's never been able to get his, there's never been much reason to worry about anyone else, sack leaders while he was on the Jets:
• 2015 - Wilkerson had 12
• 2016 - Him at 7, next had 4.5
• 2017 - Demario Davis, 5 (Richardson gone)
• 2018 - Jenkins and Anderson had 7
That makes Markus Golden the most productive OLB Williams has ever played next to. I don't think there's anyone in NY who wants Yannick more than Williams.
Jets have never had edge pass rushers that would take pressure off him. At the time of the trade he was the 8th most doubled interior lineman in the league. Tomlinson was 7th and even just that bit of help saw his pressure rate sky rocket as a Giant. Non coincidentally when Richardson and Wilkerson were on the DL with him is when he hit 7 sacks at age 22, then both were traded the last few years and things only got harder
Pressure, hurries and run defense still excellent. Still very young and in good health.
Resign him.
Put him with people that maintain their gaps and he should get more sacks. He clearly was shoving his many backwards on many plays.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Awaiting how much this final deal is going to hurt. Hopefully LW "saved" his sacks for the future.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Agreed. His impact on the DL was obvious. Sacks are not everything and he is not an edge rusher. I did not love the trade, but he is a young, high quality player and should be re-signed.
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill? Was he really worth the picks plus the money? Couldn't we have made the same upgrades re DB's and LB's, and added a true ER, without sacrificing any picks or reducing our options in free agency?
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Agreed. His impact on the DL was obvious. Sacks are not everything and he is not an edge rusher. I did not love the trade, but he is a young, high quality player and should be re-signed.
He most certainly had a positive impact. The middle looked stout. Perhaps the only strong unit on D second half last year.
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill? Was he really worth the picks plus the money? Couldn't we have made the same upgrades re DB's and LB's, and added a true ER, without sacrificing any picks or reducing our options in free agency?
I'll admit to being surprised by this trade.
He is an upgrade to Hill, but Hill is now a good rotational player.
I didn't mind the picks being traded, but thought he would have been signed quickly. But no matter what money would be spent. What do you really expect from a 3rd or 4th pick that you couldn't trade them for a starting DE/DT. Hill is one of the few decent 3rd round picks they have made recently.
Yes in my mind it is a bit of a strange trade unless he signs and plays extremely well. But trades and drafts are a crap shot.
Whether you think the trade was a solid move or an unwise decision, any reasonable take should be he made the defense better
a) forcing the QB out of the pocket (potentially into the arms of a teammate).
b) forcing him to throw the ball away.
c) forcing him to make an ill-advised throw (potential INT).
d) forcing him off-script.
...granted there still remains the chance for the QB to make a positive play, but pressuring the QB is still a very good thing.
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If the DBs and lbers can cover a half second longer...
Add a true edge rusher.
all would be good.
Was he really that much of an improvement over B.J. Hill?
Yes he was and significantly so and he might prove to be even more valuable this year with the talk about the Giants being multiple on defense. Williams can play the 3, the 5 and the shade...
Defense is about how the pieces fit together.. not just the individual pieces themselves..
How many times have you heard LT say.. I was able to do what I could because I had Carl Banks on the other side.. Williams elevated the defensive line play.. period..
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
Once Leonard Williams agent sees what others are getting his asking price will go up. I hope that the Giants franchise him unless they can get him to sign a 3-4 year deal for around $11-12 million annually.
Dalvin Tomlinson’s play improved significantly once Williams arrived.
Hate to be "one of those" but is this at all something worthy of noting in connection with this defense?
We've heard similar labels tossed around on this site before. Jon Beason was immediately the best LB the Giants had when he was traded here in 2013. That's some guy in exchange for a 7th round pick, lol.
I remember hearing Justin Pugh was our best offensive lineman for years. Yeah...
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
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He arguably became the best player on the defense the minute he signed.
Hate to be "one of those" but is this at all something worthy of noting in connection with this defense?
We've heard similar labels tossed around on this site before. Jon Beason was immediately the best LB the Giants had when he was traded here in 2013. That's some guy in exchange for a 7th round pick, lol.
I remember hearing Justin Pugh was our best offensive lineman for years. Yeah...
Pugh was pretty good except for the injuries and the fact they kept moving him around.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
I gave the points per yielded; QBs don't play D.
Not all pressures are equal. It's one thing if the pressure effects the throw, but there have been plenty of pressures that have come after the QB has had time to scan the field.
If you visit NFL Next Gen Stats, they have a "Time to Throw" stat in which it measures and averages each QBs time from snap to throw for each game.
If you look at the Giants' opponents, the splits for each QB from when they played the Giants with and without Leonard Williams was not demonstrably different. QBs that usually throw quickly still threw quickly and QBs that usually hold on to the ball were still able to hold on to the ball.
In fact, Carson Wentz and Aaron Rodgers both held on to the ball longer vs the Giants (and all games were when the Giants had Leonard Williams) than they usually did in most of their other games.
I do think Williams is a good player. I just wouldn't put so much stock in the pressures angle.
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You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
I gave the points per yielded; QBs don't play D.
But you also said they were 6-3 after he left vs 1-6 before..
This defense is super young! Mostly on thier rookie contract....
Getting a young leader. Who wants to be great and plays the right way and seems to be a great locker room guy!
Arguably, the best player on the D.
What is there not to like about this player?
We need to sign him.
Losing draft picks hurt, but entire team can not be "rookies".
Williams is a good, not great player. He should not be the jewel or focus of UFA.
I'd like the Giants to transition tag him, and spend the first crucial 7-10 days in UFA on landing a better player.
Judge and Graham have been in the AFC East, they know him plenty well. It'll be obvious what they think soon enough.
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
Ok , but the Jets defense improved greatly when he left. 27 points to 19 points after he was traded. I believe their run defense even improved. This guy is not an impact player period. Pressures are good against a non mobile Qb , but there arent too many left in todays Nfl. I would rather cut my losses let him walk and maybe get a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in '21.
Completely agree, but the question is whether you would pay premium funds for someone like that.
The Giants have Dalvin Tomlinson, who had only 14 pressures (but converted 4 of them into sacks) and Dexter Lawrence who as a rookie had 30 pressures in 16 games (or only slightly lower rate than Williams).
$15 million per year can go towards more pressing needs. I'd rather sign an elite LB like Corey Littleton for $12 mill/yr or an elite FS like Justin Simmons for that $15 million year. Better yet, how about giving that money to Arik Armstead who had a boatload of pressures and 10 sacks and who can play both 3-4 DE and as a 3 technique in an even front?
There's plenty of better decisions that I think the Giants could make than paying a good player that will be part of a rotation $15 million per year.
This defense is super young! Mostly on thier rookie contract....
Getting a young leader. Who wants to be great and plays the right way and seems to be a great locker room guy!
Arguably, the best player on the D.
What is there not to like about this player?
We need to sign him.
Losing draft picks hurt, but entire team can not be "rookies".
Yes, Hill, because that's what this move was all about, replacing B.J. Hill with Leonard Williams.
Was Hill a disappointment last year? Yes, but so was every second-year player, which leads me to believe that much of that had to do with scheme and coaching. It certainly wasn't a reason to panic and make a trade for a player who could have been acquired in free agency in 2020.
I don't care what kind of a "guy" Williams is - I care about what kind of player he is, and to me he's Chris Canty with two good eyes. Good player, but not a difference-maker. Not a player that opposing offenses absolutely must account for. And not a player worth what it cost to get him, or worth what it's going to cost to keep him.
I view LW as a better player whose best football is in front of him.
Not you, but no one realize how young he is.....basically the same age of Hill and Tomilson
No one really argues about the type of player LW is - he almost gets there a lot and always has and probably will only ever be what he always has been. A guy that almost gets there. Do a lot NFL teams build around guys that are almost really good?
What cracks me up are he guys who write that all LW needs is a great defense around him and then he’ll be great. I think the LW trade is some sort of football IQ test.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
I did this exercise a few weeks ago and the excuse makers, as expected, made excuses saying the reasons for these blatant differences were more "nuanced".
Look, LW is Mr. Almost. He almost sacks the QB, he almost makes a tackles for a loss, he also makes a tackle, he almost knocks down a pass, etc, etc.
And now we're very likely to dole out a material portion of the cap for a guy who almost makes plays...
Jets fans. So logical, well learned and open minded.
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In comment 14816622 shyster said:
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
You conveniently left out that the Jets were starting their 2nd and 3rd string QB’s when Williams was on the team.
Ok , but the Jets defense improved greatly when he left. 27 points to 19 points after he was traded. I believe their run defense even improved. This guy is not an impact player period. Pressures are good against a non mobile Qb , but there arent too many left in todays Nfl. I would rather cut my losses let him walk and maybe get a 3rd or 4th rd comp pick in '21.
Guy by the name of Adams had more to do with that..LW was not holding their defense back. They could have benched him earlier if he was the reason. Plus maybe the fact that their offense improved after Darnold came back and they were not 3 and out all game with the defense on the field 35 min per game may have helped???
Pressure, hurries and run defense still excellent. Still very young and in good health.
Resign him.
I agree. I get the trade being “iffy” but having this guy on the roster is a plus.
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and 2-6 with him,giving up 29 points per game.
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
I did this exercise a few weeks ago and the excuse makers, as expected, made excuses saying the reasons for these blatant differences were more "nuanced".
Look, LW is Mr. Almost. He almost sacks the QB, he almost makes a tackles for a loss, he also makes a tackle, he almost knocks down a pass, etc, etc.
And now we're very likely to dole out a material portion of the cap for a guy who almost makes plays...
Your analysis is as unreliable as they come. Have you ever noticed that your point of view on any given topic is that the Giants did the wrong thing, or the Giant player sucks?
It's called confirmation bias. Your established view is that everything g is a look ways wrong so you will find evidence in everything and disregard anything positive to confirm your own biased view to yourself.
The worst part is that you lack all self awareness and position yourself as an expert.
You're terps 2.0
If he covets that long term security kick back some cash and have it put in the contract as sack escalators. Shouldn't be a problem for him if he's confident in his ability to improve.
$12M AAV base deal
Bonus structure-
5 sacks- $500K
10 sacks- $1M
each additional sack- $100K
Done deal.
It's called confirmation bias. Your established view is that everything g is a look ways wrong so you will find evidence in everything and disregard anything positive to confirm your own biased view to yourself.
The worst part is that you lack all self awareness and position yourself as an expert.
You're terps 2.0
I freely admit I don't trust much with Gettleman. I didn't like his hiring, based less on merit and more on once being a member of the Jints Central establishment, and struggle to see much difference between his work and the work of his predecessor. So I absolutely scrutinize every single move. Guilty.
But are you suggesting that the acquisition of LW is a no-brainer and any criticism is unwarranted?
Love this take.
Are you sure it wasn't Daniel Jones that cost us Chase Young instead? After all, did he really have to go out and win his first two starts. What a selfish player.
HAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
Jets were 1-6 with him,giving up 27 points per game and 6-3 without him, giving up 19 points per game.
And the Jets, not the Giants, have the 68th pick in the 2020 draft.
Ooof. Embarrassing.
Hell yes, he does a lot of things well, and he never takes a play off.
That's weird, the NFL seemed to determine that he was a DE when they assigned his 5th year option salary. And then the Giants played him, at least nominally, at DE.
IDL do get sacks. And Williams is not bereft of pass rush skills, so his lack of sacks should not be dismissed - it's not that he's simply asked to stay home and ride his man up and down the line to occupy a blocker - he does rush the passer, and he actually generates more than his fair share of pressures. But for whatever reason, he doesn't get home to make the sack.
You can't cause a fumble by almost getting there, you don't alter a throw that results in an interception.
These are the plays that define greatness. Can't be almost great.
Witness Tom Bradys remarks after the 2007 super bowl.
As just one example among many.
Witness the NYG under Belichek getting in Jim.Kelleys sight lines to win in 1990.
Desirability of disrupting QB footwork and clock and sight is as old as football
Once the 2008 Cleveland Browns showed the NFL that Eli was in particular suboptimal when unable to plant going forward into his throw given pressure up the middle - many of the better teams copied the strategy for years in important games.
Sorry...an example of how eagerness to argue against William's and DG leads to making arguments contrary to a strategy used by DC's since DL units like the Rams or Bob Lilly Cowboys or the Alan Page Purple People Eaters or the Iron Curtain or the 85 Bears or the whole strategy of Jim Johnson of the Eagles.
Pressure up the middle regardless of sacks to
alter QB foot time or arm arc distortion is valuable to many good defenses.
Even more so against teams who get the ball out quickly.
Pressure up the middle matters. Now, will he be worth the contract price? None of us will know until he is halfway through the contract.
Imo
But not at $15M/yr or more. And some have mentioned $17M possibly. That's just insane to me. I don't understand the notion that 20-sack perennial all-pros are only worth a few million more than serviceable starters. LW is somewhere dead smack in the middle between a perennial all-pro and a decent bench player. His salary should also be dead smack in the middle between the two.
Once the 2008 Cleveland Browns showed the NFL that Eli was in particular suboptimal when unable to plant going forward into his throw given pressure up the middle - many of the better teams copied the strategy for years in important games.
Sorry...an example of how eagerness to argue against William's and DG leads to making arguments contrary to a strategy used by DC's since DL units like the Rams or Bob Lilly Cowboys or the Alan Page Purple People Eaters or the Iron Curtain or the 85 Bears or the whole strategy of Jim Johnson of the Eagles.
Pressure up the middle regardless of sacks to
alter QB foot time or arm arc distortion is valuable to many good defenses.
Even more so against teams who get the ball out quickly.
Pressure up the middle matters. Now, will he be worth the contract price? None of us will know until he is halfway through the contract.
Imo
Pressure up the middle doesn't matter if it comes after the QB has had 3.5+ seconds to throw....
Quick pressure up the middle matters. Quick pressure is disruptive, changes footwork, changes arm angles etc... Almost pressure several seconds into the play... Hmmm not so much.
"I was there too"
The chart you showed illustrates a different analysis. Misdirection.
The QB sees pressure and adjusts long before any throw...is one unconsidered factor.
The other is that after citing 3.5 seconds you showed nothing about William's and time.
The main point is that the analysis of time and space and throwing planes in a pocket is a unit measure. The unit pressure is what matters and I dont know how this data is available except via film and guys who know what to look for.
I doubt you have the data or the knowledge of line play to analyze this the way we hope Graham is in recent weeks.
The emphasis is on discussion not winning debates. It's not combat and we out here dont have enough data to have closing arguments.
You made a dismissive point as if it was conclusively beyond doubt. Its not conclusion was the counter point.
The chart kinda implies he is the best available talent for this at this time for this team? Not at any price...but not easy to get either.
You would have to add in their role on each play and the run defense comparisons to get an actual pay vs performance comparison. That's not an invitation to go add more charts. You dont have dismissive level support for your original dismissive opinion. You can boil the ocean and that would still be true. I dont either...so all I do is avoid certainty.
Strangely, there is a limit to my support of this acquisition, so I dont mean to be fighting for William's as a better player that he is.
My point is that one sided dismissal of his potential to be part of a meaningfully better unit is not available so a good analyst doesnt claim a conclusion is possible.
You dont like the Giants acquiring William's. That's cool. It has some supporting factoids. So does the opposite opinion. Its just an opinion. Guys who think differently on the subject arent making a comment about you, nor is it personal, nor are they inferior. Different opinions on the subject are understandable.
That's my only point to you.
Stay well.
Or does he go out on the market and come to the Giants' offer of $12 mil?
+1
Maybe he doesnt care about the risk of being injured while on a franchise tag? Many players hate the threat of a franchise tag for exactly that reason and desire a guarantee of something as soon as they can in their career.
Maybe the new coaches are in shrug mode about his potential. Or excited about it. Or think if they played Williams differently then Lawrence would be a wrecking ball. Or think that if there was a linebacker or fs the opposing OL had to consider then there would be less double teaming on someone. I have no idea.
Maybe his family likes the area or really wants a warmer climate if they can get it.
All of these unknowns are actually sizable enough to sway the NYG and William's into different positions and border lines.
One of the frustrations of being a fan is that you dont know until it plays out months and years later. Just a fact of the landscape.
Williams is much more in the column of players who will help the team win a championship than not. He's not the type of player who's your best if you aspire to win a championship, that's OK.
Under pressure is the most consistent factor to predict lower quarterback rating, year after year. It's never a bad thing, even if they all aren't created equal.
Per the player's mouth he considers himself among the best interior lineman. Transition tag him, let a competitive bidding process prove or disprove.
Unless you’re an outlier like Donald, a combination of DT and DE skills, which LW isn’t, I’d rather have the DTs who plug space and can hold the point of attack. And right now it’s easier than ever to find those. So spending big cap dollars on a commodity position makes les and less sense...
The chart kinda implies he is the best available talent for this at this time for this team? Not at any price...but not easy to get either.
You would have to add in their role on each play and the run defense comparisons to get an actual pay vs performance comparison. That's not an invitation to go add more charts. You dont have dismissive level support for your original dismissive opinion. You can boil the ocean and that would still be true. I dont either...so all I do is avoid certainty.
Strangely, there is a limit to my support of this acquisition, so I dont mean to be fighting for William's as a better player that he is.
My point is that one sided dismissal of his potential to be part of a meaningfully better unit is not available so a good analyst doesnt claim a conclusion is possible.
You dont like the Giants acquiring William's. That's cool. It has some supporting factoids. So does the opposite opinion. Its just an opinion. Guys who think differently on the subject arent making a comment about you, nor is it personal, nor are they inferior. Different opinions on the subject are understandable.
That's my only point to you.
Stay well.
Tomlinson appears to be listed more favorably within the top right quadrant, which is presumably where you'd like your DL to reside in this sort of analysis, with the presumption that with pass-rushing success, double-teams will naturally follow.
It's interesting that Tomlinson is well ahead of Williams in double-teams. Part of that, I'm sure, is that DT lines up on the nose, where he's much more likely to get double-teamed simply as a result of the relative positioning. But to those who suggest that LW is freeing up others to make a play, that may be true with edge players not listed here, but it's not apparent that he's drawing attention away from his teammates along the DL.
It would be interesting, for me at least, to see where Tomlinson was on this chart before/after Williams arrival. That would certainly make a strong argument for the dynamic value of LW, which, in absence of any data to confirm it, has generally felt like something that some fans simply throw out there intuitively but don't have anything to back it up.
The converse is true as well.
Since Golden is about effort and not first step, I wouldn't sign Williams before an edge talent in the stable.
And my conclusion is that the trade for Williams most made sense when Chase was in sight via the draft. That scenario with Lawrence as well was sound thinking. But that scenario went away with a late season win. Imo.
A statistical rarity on BBI
Giants have already given up their 3rd round pick in the 2020 draft for LW.
Whether LW is re-signed only affects whether the 2021 pick given up is a 4th or a 5th.
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I would let Williams walk rather than surrender a 4th round draft pick by resigning him. The Giants have too many holes and there's no guarantee Williams will be better than a player selected in the 4th round of this year's draft.
Giants have already given up their 3rd round pick in the 2020 draft for LW.
Whether LW is re-signed only affects whether the 2021 pick given up is a 4th or a 5th.
You're right, shyster. I had the wrong year in which the Giants would lose the 4th round pick.
Maybe he doesnt care about the risk of being injured while on a franchise tag? Many players hate the threat of a franchise tag for exactly that reason and desire a guarantee of something as soon as they can in their career.
Maybe the new coaches are in shrug mode about his potential. Or excited about it. Or think if they played Williams differently then Lawrence would be a wrecking ball. Or think that if there was a linebacker or fs the opposing OL had to consider then there would be less double teaming on someone. I have no idea.
Maybe his family likes the area or really wants a warmer climate if they can get it.
All of these unknowns are actually sizable enough to sway the NYG and William's into different positions and border lines.
One of the frustrations of being a fan is that you dont know until it plays out months and years later. Just a fact of the landscape.
Very true.
I would imagine that Patrick Graham's plan on defense will greatly impact how the Giants are approaching their contract negotiations - a factor that DG couldn't have known at the time he made the deal.
Another thing the Giants paid to find out is what kind of person he is. Is he the kind of player you want as a part of your locker room?
He is one of the more interesting FA case studies the NFL has seen in awhile.
I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.
The chart you showed illustrates a different analysis. Misdirection.
The QB sees pressure and adjusts long before any throw...is one unconsidered factor.
The other is that after citing 3.5 seconds you showed nothing about William's and time.
The main point is that the analysis of time and space and throwing planes in a pocket is a unit measure. The unit pressure is what matters and I dont know how this data is available except via film and guys who know what to look for.
I doubt you have the data or the knowledge of line play to analyze this the way we hope Graham is in recent weeks.
The emphasis is on discussion not winning debates. It's not combat and we out here dont have enough data to have closing arguments.
You made a dismissive point as if it was conclusively beyond doubt. Its not conclusion was the counter point.
Bill, you have me kind of wrong here.
I didn't like the trade, you are correct there.
At this point, I would rather resign him than not. I would hate to go over 15 million for it, but its better to sign him.
That said, I go into it with eyes open. From watching him, I did not see a dynamic impact player. My original 3.5 sec comment was said off the cuff and with a some snark intended (what you referred to as dismissive was really snark, which is something I do, and probably does not translate well to a message board, oh well). But the main point remains, he is a guy who was in the mix, he wasn't a guy making sacks on his own, hitting the QB, and being generally disruptive.
After I made the snarky comment, I thought, hey there is a metric for this PRWR. So I went and posted the chart (it was more of an afterthought, had it been forethought I would not have made the 3.5 sec comment to begin with). Again, that said, the chart does pretty much confirm what my eyes saw in that he wasn't getting quick pressure, and as it turns out not even taking the bulk of the double teams (granted it would be nice to know the pre vs. post Giant breakdown) Quick pressure is what is disruptive. But also note, that yes, that chart mixes him in with 4-3 DTs... He was not placed on the chart for Edge Rushers... On that chart, his production would look silly. And yet he did play 3 - 4 DE most of the time...
If there are other players flushing the QB, I would bet that LW's sack numbers would increase dramatically as he would seem to be a guy in position to get the cleanup sacks. Those are good, but not quite as impactful.
There is zero doubt that the Giants need something better from the edge though. But even as a 3 - 4 DE,
I had a longer reply about evaluating units ( especially the DL and maybe the Ol unit) more than individuals) but my connection jumped the shark exactly as I was prepared to hit send.
We agree on a lot of the same conclusions regarding Williams as an investment. Absent a better edge player and better LB's and Safeties, there is not the cross multiplier effects that lifts the unit performance high enough
Do note the combination of a pretty good edge rusher (Golden) and disruptive interior linemen (Williams, Lawrence) was an active pass rush, but ultimately a really bad defense.
If it all possible I'd like the Giants to upgrade both Golden and Williams if top dollar is spent.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
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is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
Gettleman's computer fellas hard at work...
2. Williams is a good player . Nobody is contesting that . But I think Tomlinson , Lawrence & Williams are redundant . If Mr G pays the face-saving ransom, he will still need to address Corner (2 players) , S (I don’t see Peppers . Maybe I’m wrong ) ILB & Edge . That’s quite a bit , especially when you consider that he almost certainly needs LOT & a real
Center .
I know guys like Dunk & Bobby Montana , whom I both deeply respect , are on board with Gettleman . Count me out . He’s benefited from going early in the draft . His trades and free -agent signings have been awful . He’s a charlatan , a big mouth who went for the coffee early in his career, hanging around some truly talented people , trying to sound like them .
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is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
What's wrong with what he posted?
Someone can't sign up if they have a differing opinion than yours?
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In comment 14817885 KVRHzolklo6 said:
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is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
What's wrong with what he posted?
Someone can't sign up if they have a differing opinion than yours?
This.
+1
2. Williams is a good player . Nobody is contesting that . But I think Tomlinson , Lawrence & Williams are redundant . If Mr G pays the face-saving ransom, he will still need to address Corner (2 players) , S (I don’t see Peppers . Maybe I’m wrong ) ILB & Edge . That’s quite a bit , especially when you consider that he almost certainly needs LOT & a real
Center .
I know guys like Dunk & Bobby Montana , whom I both deeply respect , are on board with Gettleman . Count me out . He’s benefited from going early in the draft . His trades and free -agent signings have been awful . He’s a charlatan , a big mouth who went for the coffee early in his career, hanging around some truly talented people , trying to sound like them .
LW is an Interior DL, not an EDGE. You IDLs by pressures, not sacks.
Quote:
is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
I signed up to post here.
Is that a crime?
Quote:
In comment 14817885 KVRHzolklo6 said:
Quote:
is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
What's wrong with what he posted?
Someone can't sign up if they have a differing opinion than yours?
It has nothing to do with him having a different opinion. Just watch - you'll see it when you see it. He's not actually new.
2. Williams is a good player . Nobody is contesting that . But I think Tomlinson , Lawrence & Williams are redundant . If Mr G pays the face-saving ransom, he will still need to address Corner (2 players) , S (I don’t see Peppers . Maybe I’m wrong ) ILB & Edge . That’s quite a bit , especially when you consider that he almost certainly needs LOT & a real
Center .
I know guys like Dunk & Bobby Montana , whom I both deeply respect , are on board with Gettleman . Count me out . He’s benefited from going early in the draft . His trades and free -agent signings have been awful . He’s a charlatan , a big mouth who went for the coffee early in his career, hanging around some truly talented people , trying to sound like them .
Easy there, Retro - I'm FAR from on board with Gettleman. If anything, I'm more aligned with your opinion of him.
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In comment 14817905 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14817885 KVRHzolklo6 said:
Quote:
is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
What's wrong with what he posted?
Someone can't sign up if they have a differing opinion than yours?
It has nothing to do with him having a different opinion. Just watch - you'll see it when you see it. He's not actually new.
Who the hell cares? He has a legit point that you may not agree with but how does that result in you claiming he's a dupe?
Quote:
1 Pressures are not sacks . Nobody cares about how many pressures Lawrence Taylor had.
2. Williams is a good player . Nobody is contesting that . But I think Tomlinson , Lawrence & Williams are redundant . If Mr G pays the face-saving ransom, he will still need to address Corner (2 players) , S (I don’t see Peppers . Maybe I’m wrong ) ILB & Edge . That’s quite a bit , especially when you consider that he almost certainly needs LOT & a real
Center .
I know guys like Dunk & Bobby Montana , whom I both deeply respect , are on board with Gettleman . Count me out . He’s benefited from going early in the draft . His trades and free -agent signings have been awful . He’s a charlatan , a big mouth who went for the coffee early in his career, hanging around some truly talented people , trying to sound like them .
Easy there, Retro - I'm FAR from on board with Gettleman. If anything, I'm more aligned with your opinion of him.
We need to get beers when I get back to Rochester Retro..Miss your posts buddy!
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In comment 14817983 montanagiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14817905 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14817885 KVRHzolklo6 said:
Quote:
is better and has more upside than any Interior DL in this draft.
Leonard Williams >>> Derrick Brown, easily.
Williams has played with 0 quality EDGE players with the Jets + Giants. You put a dangerous EDGE next to Williams....WATCH OUT!
You signed up to post that?
What's wrong with what he posted?
Someone can't sign up if they have a differing opinion than yours?
It has nothing to do with him having a different opinion. Just watch - you'll see it when you see it. He's not actually new.
Who the hell cares? He has a legit point that you may not agree with but how does that result in you claiming he's a dupe?
Because I've read his other posts already. It's not this post that told me he's a dupe. This one just happened to be on the thread I was already on at the time.